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PSA: ToS 3.3 is srs bsns, profanity = account suicideFollow

#1 Apr 15 2017 at 6:52 PM Rating: Default
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I will just preface this by stating the fact that I have had my Square Enix account since FFXI released in NA, so half of my life. It was originally a Play Online account. 10 years ago I was banned twice for serious harassment. I was young and stupid, that was a long time ago. I reformed my ways when they told me I had no more chances left. I haven't had any infractions since then. (yes it carries over)

I've been back for just one week after a year's hiatus in FFXIV. 7 days into my return to XIV, I have been banned from the game. My ban started around 1 AM PST Saturday morning when they issued the notice, and it lasts for 24 hours after the midnight of the day it was issued. So it's basically a 2 day ban.

The reason I was given for the ban was for breaking 3.3 in the ToS. ((Profanity and Offensive Language. You may not use profanity or any language that a reasonable person would find offensive. The Game is for a user aged 13 and older. You agree to behave accordingly.))

That's interesting. I NEVER use prejudice slurs. I NEVER talk about sexual acts. I NEVER threaten anyone. I rarely even swear. When I do swear, it is restricted to 'f--k' 's--t' and 'b---h', and it is used very sparingly. I have been using this vocabulary since I was a "reasonable" 13 year-old, and I didn't find it "offensive" then, and I don't find it offensive now.

Square also mentioned that FFXIV players are of all ages, and hail from all walks of life. Basically they are trying to foster an environment where people can relax. I am sympathetic to that, I really am, it's part of the charm of the game. With that said, the NPCs break the TOS all the time. I never used any language that you can't find synonyms of in this very game. Am I supposed to sanitize my language and walk around on eggshells because some barely literate 13 year old who skipped through the lewd chat bubbles is offended that a grown-up used grown-up words?

When people grief me in duty finder. Belittle me, swear at me, afk, kick me illegitimately, I just shrug it off. In the end it's just a game and these miserable and volatile people will probably never come across my path again. This is also what goes through my head when I want to be toxic, I realize there's no point, it's a waste of energy, and I usually just take a deep breath focus on finishing what I'm doing asap. Two of the benefits of age is humility and patience.Things that "reasonable 13 year olds" rarely exhibit. This is why in all honesty I was surprised to be banned, I just thank my stars it wasn't permanent.

In my week back, the only instance where there was a problem, was my first time (which I announced to the party) doing PoTD 91-100. I used the angel pomander to save the party, and the team freaked out. Even the "mentor" on my team was giving me a hard time. They kept calling me names, trying to get under my skin, attacking me, even after that I apologized and suggested maybe we will find more. Then, when they wouldn't stop, I said something along the lines of "stop taking yourself so f--king seriously, kys". They subsequently afk'd then booted me, but I guess they were coordinating reporting me in their FC chat before booting me. In retrospect I did not handle myself perfectly in that situation, but I did nothing "unreasonable" that would warrant suspending my account, in my opinion, given the situation.

So in conclusion.

-Square Enix seems to think that some people playing FFXIV will stop playing entirely, or in the worst case kill themselves if they are triggered by too many episodes of verbal hedonism and/or violence.
-Square Enix HAS AND WILL ban you for literally anything anyone finds offensive. "You're a d**k" "Stop being an as*" "You're not a good tank, you need practice" "Get the f**k over yourself"... even "I f*cking hate this boss". There are countless testimonies.
-People will bait you with passive aggressive man-child comments and actions, some are experts at getting a rise out of people, and enjoy nothing more than having a reason to get someone banned. Let's be real, this is probably where the majority of the reports come from. I find it hard to believe that there is that many "reasonable" 13 year olds playing this game.
-It is a complete waste of time and energy to try to reason with Square, they will give you nothing but canned answers and insult your intelligence.

A word of wisdom: Avoid talking to people outside your free company at all costs. Keep all communications at a minimum. Don't use non-office language outside of your free company, literally anything can be offensive to someone who is mad at you.

Edited, Apr 15th 2017 9:09pm by TofuReaper

Edited, Apr 15th 2017 11:33pm by TofuReaper
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#2 Apr 15 2017 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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Basically, it can all be summed up as:

You got reported, they didn't.

That's why you got the ban.

And really, profanity is never necessary. I don't use it, and I've never had need to use it, ever. And Kudos to SE for trying to keep it as clean as they can, unlike Blizzard who simply doesn't care about stuff like pr0nshire on Moon Guard.

EDIT: And btw, "kys" ... does that mean "kill yourself"? That's.....very offensive. Like.....way over the line. There's no excuse for that. If that's not what you meant, then that's probably what they thought it meant, because that's the first thing that came to my mind, in the context it was used.

EDIT2:
Quote:
A word of wisdom: Avoid talking to people outside your free company at all costs. Keep all communications at a minimum. Don't use non-office language outside of your free company, literally anything can be offensive to someone who is mad at you.


Wow, that's a bit alarmist and tinfoil hatting type thing going on there....

I talk somewhat often in dungeons and I've never been banned.... but then again, I don't use profanity and I don't belittle people, or nitpick about stupid junk. I use my communication to attempt to help people learn, but if it's clear they won't then I stop and don't say anything else unless I need to.

Edited, Apr 15th 2017 9:35pm by Lyrailis
#3 Apr 15 2017 at 7:32 PM Rating: Default
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in my defense, if you know what kys means, you probably won't take it literally
also whatever, if you enjoy nobody ever talking outside of FC then you win
I am just being honest. Have gotten away with way worse in other games, even in this game and ffxi. There has been a sudden shift in the way they handle potty mouths and eventually when you least expect it, you will be banned for a random weekend, and I will laugh, and continue to not talk outside of FC

Edited, Apr 15th 2017 9:38pm by TofuReaper

Edited, Apr 15th 2017 9:40pm by TofuReaper
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#4 Apr 15 2017 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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TofuReaper wrote:
in my defense, if you know what kys means, you probably won't take it literally
also whatever, if you enjoy nobody ever talking outside of FC then you win

Edited, Apr 15th 2017 9:33pm by TofuReaper

Edited, Apr 15th 2017 9:34pm by TofuReaper


Doesn't matter if YOU think that anybody who knows what it means wouldn't take it literally, it is still a phrase that really shouldn't be used in a public place with strangers, regardless if it is spelled out, or abbreviated. For all you know, one of the strangers could be someone on anti-depressant drugs who is actually having thoughts of suicide. You just don't know, when it comes to strangers.

If you're on your FC with your friends, hey sure. If you're with strangers... then seriously, leave the profanity and offensive comments out.

But I highly doubt that SE's policies are going to lead to "nobody ever talking outside of FC" because these policies from what I can tell have been there for quite awhile yet, and.... well, I still see people talking outside of FC regularly.

You know what I DON'T see very often? Profanity. It's rather rare.

Maybe because the harsher policy is actually.... *gasp* doing its job. Which is a good thing.

Edited, Apr 15th 2017 9:40pm by Lyrailis
#5 Apr 15 2017 at 7:40 PM Rating: Default
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Don't care. Thought policing is thought policing. This is just a psa not a debate.
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#6 Apr 15 2017 at 9:44 PM Rating: Good
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TofuReaper wrote:
Don't care. Thought policing is thought policing. This is just a psa not a debate.


Your PSA is "encouraging random strangers on the internet to kill themselves can get you banned."

Yeah cool, good safety tip there. Thanks.

Btw, that abbreviation is 100% the reason you were banned. The swearing I doubt they actually care about unless it's really offensive or used for continuous harassment. The suicide thing though, yeah.. they're going to care about that. Duh.

Edited, Apr 15th 2017 10:46pm by Callinon
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#7 Apr 15 2017 at 10:17 PM Rating: Default
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The three of them were being belligerent jerks the entire time, and I'm 99% sure they were a premade. Apparently this has absolutely no impact on square's judgement (or maybe it did, we will never know because they 'already sent me an email saying why I was banned' lols). The last time I was banned many years ago, the simpleton that reported me got banned too for the exact same thing he got me banned for, because I reported him when the GM told me who reported me and why. No such communication this time. Things have gone way down hill in customer support over the years.

Telling someone to go kys is distasteful, but it's obviously not an attempt to hopefully find that one suicidal person and pray you can push them over the edge. If you're claiming that it is then quite frankly I will call you out for reaching really hard. What happened to the online FF community that was fun and cheeky, now the only cheeks are the ones that everyone are clenching to keep the giant metal rods up their butts as they walk.

=

Edited, Apr 16th 2017 12:39am by TofuReaper
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#8 Apr 16 2017 at 12:02 AM Rating: Good
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TofuReaper wrote:
The three of them were being belligerent jerks the entire time, and I'm 99% sure they were a premade. Apparently this has absolutely no impact on square's judgement (or maybe it did, we will never know because they 'already sent me an email saying why I was banned' lols). The last time I was banned many years ago, the simpleton that reported me got banned too for the exact same thing he got me banned for, because I reported him when the GM told me who reported me and why. No such communication this time. Things have gone way down hill in customer support over the years.

Telling someone to go kys is distasteful, but it's obviously not an attempt to hopefully find that one suicidal person and pray you can push them over the edge. If you're claiming that it is then quite frankly I will call you out for reaching really hard. What happened to the online FF community that was fun and cheeky, now the only cheeks are the ones that everyone are clenching to keep the giant metal rods up their butts as they walk.

=

Edited, Apr 16th 2017 12:39am by TofuReaper


No, the problem is, when you go "kys" to some random person on the internet, you could end up saying that to the wrong person and push them over the edge.

Nobody is trying to accuse you of trying to find people to talk into committing suicide, what we ARE saying is that there's the danger that you could by accident. It's an offensive phrase even when abbreviated and it serves no purpose in any sort of social interactions with strangers. It doesn't belong in that setting, and I'd argue that it doesn't belong in ANY setting.

It's just inappropriate no matter how you roll the dice.

But hey, keep hammering that rate-down button like it's gonna revive your account, lol. What is this, 2006 when people semi-cared about ratings?
#9 Apr 16 2017 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I will. Also, lol, 'you might push someone over the edge'. Even if I did push someone over the edge, I would feel no remorse lol. If you're that unstable and are on the brink of suicide, you probably shouldn't be playing ffxiv. You belong in psych.

Actually you know what, I think I will go back to my troll days. I'll make it my personal mission to passive-aggressively troll people within the ToS, and I'll report them when they freak out, and then all will be right with the world. Grandpa SE has no idea what the meaning of context is. Sow why not :) It's a good hobby. Just think of all the sand I can cram into the community's giney. Maybe after enough people get banned for meaningless words, they will see the light ^^

~ Perhaps one did not want to be loved so much as to be understood. xd

Edited, Apr 16th 2017 9:46am by TofuReaper
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#10 Apr 16 2017 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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TofuReaper wrote:
I will. Also, lol, 'you might push someone over the edge'. Even if I did push someone over the edge, I would feel no remorse lol. If you're that unstable and are on the brink of suicide, you probably shouldn't be playing ffxiv. You belong in psych.

Actually you know what, I think I will go back to my troll days. I'll make it my personal mission to passive-aggressively troll people within the ToS, and I'll report them when they freak out, and then all will be right with the world. Grandpa SE has no idea what the meaning of context is. Sow why not :)



Edited, Apr 16th 2017 9:42am by TofuReaper


You are a sad, sad person.

I couldn't imagine living in a world where you feel the need to hurt others for your own self-gratification just because of some perceived injustice done to you. Instead of, you know, saying sorry and deciding to act like a better, nicer person, you're going to go the bitter route and attack others like you're some little kid at recess throwing a temper tantrum. What are you, 14 or something? Grow up, seriously.

And lol, psych hospitals? Oi. That's pretty much a death sentence already. They give those people drugs that have nasty side-effects that basically turn them into zombies, and they are kept in a glorified prison. I wouldn't wish that h*ll on anybody.

Edited, Apr 16th 2017 9:50am by Lyrailis
#11 Apr 16 2017 at 7:57 AM Rating: Default
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Either way you guys seem to be missing the point. I am not debating whether or not I deserve the ban. I am genuinely shocked that a) i even got banned in the first place, b) it escalated to 47 hours without even a warning, c) the GM couldn't be bothered to talk to me for 5 minutes before banning me for 2 days.

I know social justice warriors and literally-shaking-suicidal-'liberals' have won the thought policing and culture war in the gaming community. Just considering how adult-themed the final fantasy series is, and how lewd some of the dialogue is, you'd figure there would be more leeway.

I'd also like to point out that you have been insulting me in almost every post and I haven't insulted you a single one.

Edited, Apr 16th 2017 10:02am by TofuReaper
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#12 Apr 16 2017 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Psych hospital is a death sentence? That's my fking problem? You seem to think that someone ending it is somehow my problem.
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#13 Apr 16 2017 at 8:14 AM Rating: Excellent
The moral of the story is act your age, not your shoe size.
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#14 Apr 16 2017 at 8:25 AM Rating: Default
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Actually, the moral of the story is to never assume that you are playing with anything other than a reasonable 13 year old (irony intensifies)

Edited, Apr 16th 2017 10:29am by TofuReaper
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#15 Apr 16 2017 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, you're totally someone I'd want in the community.

Smiley: rolleyes
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#16 Apr 16 2017 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm actually a very helpful person. Very easy to get along with. Polite but with a potty mouth.
I help noobs whenever I can. The last thing i did before getting banned was to make a decorated bronze chasing hammer for this guy's story quest. I didn't even have abilities set for crafting, I didn't even remember how to craft. I just have bsm 15 and he needed help.
So you can try to sting me with your words but I know I am a good member of the community. And I don't need a crown to hide the fact that I'm a p.o.s, because I am not one.

Edited, Apr 16th 2017 3:18pm by TofuReaper
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#17 Apr 16 2017 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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"Polite" and "Potty Mouth" don't go together, at all. You're either one or the other.

Nobody that's spouting off profanity is ever seen as being "polite", because you just don't use the F-word and "Please" or "Thank you" in the same sentence and expect people to think that you're a nice person to be around.

And given your behavior here in this thread... eh. Well, let's just say they (your actions/words) don't make good first impressions.

Edited, Apr 16th 2017 5:32pm by Lyrailis
#18 Apr 16 2017 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
"I don't get it, all I did was act immature and passively insult people and someone reported me!"
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#19 Apr 16 2017 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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ok
when you say wtf, you should be banned, because it the f word is offensive and acronyms are literally the same thing

Edited, Apr 16th 2017 10:02pm by TofuReaper
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#20 Apr 16 2017 at 8:03 PM Rating: Default
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Kindly go fk yourself lyrais. There :) polite and potty mouth
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#21 Apr 16 2017 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
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*yawn*

Did someone say something?

Nah.
#22 Apr 16 2017 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
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You know lyrai i have treated you and everyone else in this thread with nothing but respect.

You called me a tinfoil hatter
You called me a sad sad person

You contributed one good post, the rest of the time you have spent picking apart my character, and derailing the conversation

I dont know what your problem is, but god **** people like you need to get a grip.

I am leaving Zam now and never coming back, like most of the ff community lol. When the admins get in on the derailing and badgering, you know the site is dead xd



Edited, Apr 16th 2017 10:58pm by TofuReaper
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#23 Apr 16 2017 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I am leaving Zam now and never coming back, like most of the ff community lol.


Smiley: cookie
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svlyons wrote:
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#24 Apr 16 2017 at 9:33 PM Rating: Good
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TofuReaper wrote:
You know lyrai i have treated you and everyone else in this thread with nothing but respect.

You called me a tinfoil hatter
You called me a sad sad person

You contributed one good post, the rest of the time you have spent picking apart my character, and derailing the conversation

I dont know what your problem is, but god **** people like you need to get a grip.

I am leaving Zam now and never coming back, like most of the ff community lol. When the admins get in on the derailing and badgering, you know the site is dead xd



Edited, Apr 16th 2017 10:58pm by TofuReaper


You're just mad that I didn't take the bait and get angry at you and get all mad and started swearing when you started going passive-aggressive on me.

Didn't work, so now you're pitching a pout and storming out the door, and for some weird reason you're trying the guilt-trip or pity-party for good measure, lol. Seriously... this is like an open book.

Just... don't yank the door open too hard or it'll hit you on your way out.

Edited, Apr 16th 2017 11:34pm by Lyrailis
#25 Apr 16 2017 at 10:13 PM Rating: Default
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Edited, Apr 16th 2017 10:58pm by TofuReaper [/quote]

You're just mad that I didn't take the bait and get angry at you and get all mad and started swearing when you started going passive-aggressive on me.

Didn't work, so now you're pitching a pout and storming out the door, and for some weird reason you're trying the guilt-trip or pity-party for good measure, lol. Seriously... this is like an open book.

Just... don't yank the door open too hard or it'll hit you on your way out.

Edited, Apr 16th 2017 11:34pm by Lyrailis [/quote]

Let me save you the trouble. "Wow, way to come back, you're full of sh--"
Now that that's out of the way lol.

Passive aggressive? Speaking bluntly and honestly is passive aggressive? Do you even know what that term means? If anything I was simply aggressive. You seem to be taking this very personally. You seem to be going out of your way to make this personal actually now that I think about it. You have a serious chip on your shoulder.

Also what? You are accusing me of being delusional, while accusing me of trying to bait you?
So let me get this straight, a conversation where someone expresses opposing opinions to your own, is baiting you into getting angry? It's not my fault that you have the IQ of a potato and are unable to read between the lines, or clearly articulate counter arguments without ad hominems.
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#26 Apr 16 2017 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
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Wow, what a Word Salad. You use some pretty big words there, but you know what? You're just not making any sense TBH.

And me, taking this personally? That's a joke, right?

Oi. I just don't know what else to say to that... because seriously now, you're just reaching for straws and spouting off whatever seems to come to your mind. lol.

I dunno about you, but these last couple posts of yours I've actually had a good chuckle out of reading, scratching my head and going "Where did he get THAT out of what I said?"
#27 Apr 16 2017 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sorry that I got honors in lit?
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#28 Apr 16 2017 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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It's nice to see that "I'm just being honest" still really means "I want an excuse to be an a-hole but I can't come up with a legitimate one."
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#29 Apr 16 2017 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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So it's better to lie out of sensitivity towards the cripplingly fragile?
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#30 Apr 16 2017 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually Call. It's ironic that you are giving me a hard time over this, considering your signature. A mentor freaked out on me and booted me when i dared to fight back all over a stupid angel pomander which you don't even need to beat the **** boss (did i mention i was 90 90 mnk? i was 70 70 before going past 30). 48 hour ban because a premade, probably adults who were not suicidal, abused this ambiguous language within 3.3 to get me spite banned, over either an acronym or the word fk.

edit
come on hehe, only 2 more hours to go. entertain me with more witty psychoanalyses, and enlighten me with more logical fallacies.

Edited, Apr 17th 2017 1:17am by TofuReaper
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#31 Apr 17 2017 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I am leaving Zam now and never coming back, like most of the ff community lol.


What ever happened to this?
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#32 Apr 17 2017 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I am leaving Zam now and never coming back, like most of the ff community lol.


What ever happened to this?


Never is a lot less time than I thought.
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#33 Apr 17 2017 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lyrailis wrote:
And really, profanity is never necessary. I don't use it, and I've never had need to use it, ever.
Great, you've lived a sheltered life and never had any hardships. Sit back down in your bubble. They're just words, you're not any better as a person just because you choose to not say certain ones.
TofuReaper wrote:
entertain me with more witty psychoanalyses
You fucked up a fight and got called out on it, you retaliated but went too far and found yourself banned by the rules you knew existed and decided to ignore anyway, you came here to play the victim only telling the parts of the story that you felt were flattering to your narrative while trying to show what is pretty standard ToS as some how unreasonable, and when you didn't get the sympathy you were looking for you fell back into the belligerent behavior that got you in trouble with the game.

That about cover everything?
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#34 Apr 17 2017 at 9:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Callinon wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I am leaving Zam now and never coming back, like most of the ff community lol.


What ever happened to this?


Never is a lot less time than I thought.


Now he is gone, gotta abuse the report function with:

Quote:

You are really witty. I hope zam pays you the big bucks ;) please kill yourself you smug piece of **** :) enjoy moderating pretentious and half-witted neckbeards :)
#35 Apr 17 2017 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
You are really witty. I hope zam pays you the big bucks ;) please kill yourself you smug piece of **** :) enjoy moderating pretentious and half-witted neckbeards :)


Classic!

This dude was a true KillingIfrit throwback. He's probably too young though to know what that means.

Edited, Apr 17th 2017 8:31am by Thayos
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#36 Apr 17 2017 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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Aww, there was at least two days worth of ranting there.

Smiley: glare
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#37 Apr 17 2017 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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This is where he goes to Reddit and tells the same story except that now it's about how Zam was mean to him.
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#38 Apr 17 2017 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Haha, yes!
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#39 Apr 20 2017 at 1:19 AM Rating: Good
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*checks thread*

Welp, now I'm getting flashbacks of Rog trying to rationalize that being mean to total strangers is a good thing.

Otherwise, just seems a case of people thinking the net is the wild, wild west and when some host somewhere actually decides to enforce their ToS, it's the evil SJW libs (as current term of choice) ruining everything for everyone because they totally don't understand the joke. Don Rickles they are not.

Otherwise, it just kinda emphasizes the differences in perceived normalcy. Be it cordial vs. pottymouth, casual vs. hardcore, coke vs. pepsi, or whatever, odds are there's a lack of empathy somewhere when suddenly encountering disagreement. Call me draconian, but I don't feel games everywhere enforce their ToS enough. And I tend to blame the dollar for that, especially if sub fees are involved.
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#40 Apr 20 2017 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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Call me draconian, but I don't feel games everywhere enforce their ToS enough. And I tend to blame the dollar for that, especially if sub fees are involved.


You're not wrong. Technical breaches of the terms of service have to be weighed against the financial impact of enforcing at that level evenly. For instance, using Windower pretty explicitly breaks FFXI's terms of service. But actually banning all Windower users would be financial suicide for that game. So we start talking about gradations of enforcement. Where the line gets drawn between a technical breach and actual enforcement of the ToS as written.

In general most games tend to draw the line at being a jerk about it. You can use Windower as long as you're not being a jerk about it. You can swear in a public channel as long as you're not being a jerk about it. And it's all up to the GM that reviews the report where that line is.
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#41 Apr 20 2017 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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And if you look around these days
There seems to be a Dr Pooper craze!
I'm a Pooper, he's a Pooper, she's a Pooper, we're a Pooper
Wouldn't you like to be a Pooper, too
I'm a Pooper, he's a Pooper, she's a Pooper,
If you drink Dr Pooper you're a Pooper, too
Drink Dr Pooper
Be a Pooper, drink Dr Pooper

Sometimes the Terms of Service deserve to be broken.
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#42 Apr 20 2017 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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Well... that happened.
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#43 Apr 20 2017 at 2:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, ZAM's filters are just out of this world ridiculous, far far worse than any other website I have ever been to.

With that said... it comes down to the Spirit of the Law vs. the Letter of the Law.

The spirit behind the ToS in XIV is to keep things civil, to keep things appropriate for 13 year olds, and to give everybody a pleasant play experience. The occasional "WTF" upon something weird happening that causes a wipe or some-such, they probably won't care about (even though it does break the ToS technically).

However, if you're telling people to "KYS", then that is very much not appropriate by any means, and that will get actioned rather fast and rightly so.

Also, they never tell you the result of an investigation -- if someone who reported you was doing the same or worse, chances are, they got the boot too, because the GMs are going to look at the logs and they're going to see everything that was said relevant to the conversation, and if both sides were breaking the ToS and being jerks... then both sides are probably going to get action taken, even if that is never said.

So, the OP whining about the people who reported him... said people probably got their own temp bans/suspensions/warnings/whatever if they were indeed doing what he claimed they were doing.

So, short in point: Don't break the ToS and then report someone else for breaking the ToS. It can and probably will backfire, lol.

To be honest, I wouldn't touch the report function unless I knew that I did absolutely nothing wrong, absolutely nothing against the ToS. That's one of the reasons I don't use profanity, and if someone starts irritating me, I just take a step back and try not to reply. That way, if I gotta report the guy, I'm not guilty myself.

Edited, Apr 20th 2017 4:27pm by Lyrailis
#44 Apr 20 2017 at 7:20 PM Rating: Excellent
I've only reported one person in FFXIV ever, and it was for the person using racial slurs toward a player with a Spanish-sounding name.

Zero tolerance for racism -- that is not unreasonable.

Zero tolerance for "KYS" as well.

I'm 100 percent confident that TofuWarrior or whatever his name was fully deserved his punishment. Even now, in this moment, he's probably just somewhere else acting like a 5-year old and blaming his sadness on others.
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#45 Apr 20 2017 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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I've yet to report anybody myself...

But yeah, Racism is definitely one of those things I would.
#46 Apr 21 2017 at 6:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Is profanity actually against the TOS in XIV? Cause in an online game that's asinine. That's what the profanity filter is for.

I tend to curse a lot but I'm past the point of going off on people. The most I'll do is call someone a dumbass if they're being one.
#47 Apr 21 2017 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Call me draconian, but I don't feel games everywhere enforce their ToS enough. And I tend to blame the dollar for that, especially if sub fees are involved.


You're not wrong. Technical breaches of the terms of service have to be weighed against the financial impact of enforcing at that level evenly. For instance, using Windower pretty explicitly breaks FFXI's terms of service. But actually banning all Windower users would be financial suicide for that game. So we start talking about gradations of enforcement. Where the line gets drawn between a technical breach and actual enforcement of the ToS as written.

In general most games tend to draw the line at being a jerk about it. You can use Windower as long as you're not being a jerk about it. You can swear in a public channel as long as you're not being a jerk about it. And it's all up to the GM that reviews the report where that line is.


I find it telling where Global Chats are pretty much affirmed as cesspools on the numerous games out there. The common factor, unlike a guild, linkshell, or private chat (if an option) is that the players ultimately lack control in punishing their peers (by booting them) if something goes afoul. So, while we're ultimately told that's a job for the GMs, we simultaneously tend to know that these are often underpaid and overworked employees who probably don't understand the nuances of the very games they're policing. As result, the bad behaviors tend to persist with the only real option for the player is to employ the blacklist function when/if GM intervention proves ineffective. Now, I know some games have additional safeguards like X number of reports may temporarily mute someone, but sometimes that's character instead of account specific or it's a very short term silencing.

I know when I was more active in Rift, there was pretty much a running gag of people seeing how much they could mess with the RP servers. This included obvious Out of Character conversation in active play areas, breaking naming conventions (like using celebrity or political names or meme references), and the usual global/zone drivel. Blacklists may have handled the chat-related nuisances, but they couldn't stop people from dancing naked between yourself and others, utilizing other noisy emotes, and essentially being a pest. The real rub here was that such behaviors were implicitly violations within the game's ToS when it came to the RP shards, but it virtually never, ever seemed enforced. The sub fee theory, at the time, was really the only reason people could discern why short of Trion of not actually caring.

Yet, I also can't help but entertain the possibility of kicking those few bad apples resulting in a greater long term gain relative to people who quit out of frustration for their continued presence. And when it comes to MMOs, something I frankly don't see enough of is a mix of exit surveys (if canceling a sub) or emails after a long period of activity inquiring why one might no longer be playing. Both should obviously include multiple options, as it all snowballs into (usually) legitimate reasons, but if a common thread found is something along the lines of, "I disliked how others interacted with me." then it stands to reason something may be up. And if a field for specificity is present, even better. Of course, this is where some would prattle about safe spaces, or thick skin, but my persistent thinking on this over the years has always been, "Why are we tolerating people being mean for no reason?" Why is it the expectation that it's okay, and that it essentially WILL happen? This isn't me saying everyone needs to be friends, but is being civil really that difficult?

And in before the occasional blow up I've had on people usually out of reaction to persistent activity. Spoiler: There've been reasons for that.

Edited, Apr 21st 2017 8:43am by Seriha
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#48 Apr 21 2017 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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Of course, this is where some would prattle about safe spaces, or thick skin, but my persistent thinking on this over the years has always been, "Why are we tolerating people being mean for no reason?" Why is it the expectation that it's okay, and that it essentially WILL happen? This isn't me saying everyone needs to be friends, but is being civil really that difficult?


I really, really don't understand this either.

But then I suppose some people have this mindset that they need to make everybody else miserable so that they can be happy. Like I said to TofuWarrior or whatever their stupid name was, these people are sad, sad people who feel the need to bully others for self-gratification, and then there's also the people who know deep down inside they suck, but as soon as they see someone ELSE make a mistake, they can point the finger and shift blame away from themselves to someone else.

And then there's the complete lack of empathy for your fellow person, and you see that even outside of gaming in normal life everywhere, where people just have no empathy, no consideration for other peoples' wants, feelings, or needs. It's all MEMEMEMEMEMEME, extreme selfishness for these people. They don't care, nor do they ever think, about the effect their actions might have on others around them. They only care about what the end result for themselves is.

As time goes on, it seems to me that this just keeps getting worse and worse.

I don't like to see nitpicky punishments over stupid little crap, but yet the other side of the spectrum is even worse, where you have things like pr0nshire in WoW going unpunished, blatant and obvious abuse of ToS left-and-right, and the GMs don't even care. But yet, the dollar rules all apparently. The couple hundred some people who hang out in pr0nshire is a few thousand bucks a month, and you better bet that Blizzard cares about a few thousand of month, despite the fact they rake in tens of millions in revenue.

Edited, Apr 21st 2017 9:18am by Lyrailis
#49 Apr 21 2017 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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I've seen a few MMOs, specifically those geared toward young kids, that do enforce standards of language quite harshly. I saw one that went so far as to require approval of your character's name before it could be seen by others. But once again these were games geared toward younger kids (like 10 years old or younger). I think there's a concession on the more mainstream games that it just plain isn't worth enforcing language rules super harshly. As long as it's not something like encouraging suicide (Smiley: rolleyes) or racial epithets or the like, they just figure the ignore function can probably handle it.

Now when it comes to RP servers, that's a whole different thing. How harshly do you enforce in-character behavior? Who gets to decide what is or is not in-character for a particular player? I understand the frustration when you're trying to have an RP session with your friends and develop your story when some jackass starts dancing naked in between you, or doing noisy emotes or ground-effect spells or something. But I'm not sure what the company can reasonably do about that. For RP servers, I've always felt the "RP" tag was pretty much just that, a tag for people to know that role playing is encouraged on that server and you're likely to find other people to role play with. It's an indicator and nothing else.

As for Moon Guard Goldshire.... it's a phenomenon. It would probably actually be BAD for Blizzard to lower the boom on that after it being a meme for so long.

Edited, Apr 21st 2017 9:05am by Callinon
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#50 Apr 21 2017 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:
I've yet to report anybody myself...
I'm reported at least once or twice a week for my posts on Zam.

Granted, I'm the one doing the reporting and it's for the constant double posts ...
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#51 Apr 21 2017 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
Now when it comes to RP servers, that's a whole different thing. How harshly do you enforce in-character behavior? Who gets to decide what is or is not in-character for a particular player? I understand the frustration when you're trying to have an RP session with your friends and develop your story when some jackass starts dancing naked in between you, or doing noisy emotes or ground-effect spells or something. But I'm not sure what the company can reasonably do about that. For RP servers, I've always felt the "RP" tag was pretty much just that, a tag for people to know that role playing is encouraged on that server and you're likely to find other people to role play with. It's an indicator and nothing else.


While I understand the implication of gray areas or who should really be calling the shots, some things are pretty cut and dry. If you make a character that looks like and is named Donald Trump, and then go on to be a "deplorable" to people, you're not exactly trying to fit the theme established by the setting. Like with the naked dancing, if attempting to correlate to a true setting, you'd probably get thrown out of the tavern or have guards escorting you to a cell for disorderly conduct. Overall, that doesn't "happen" because AI and such isn't configured for it, but at the same time, GMs make a poor last resort.

While I RP more on MU*s, myself, I've always been more inclined to pick the RP servers of games I pick up because the general population tends to be more laid back about the actual mechanical aspects of the game proper. I've never felt pressured to RP, and if someone chances onto me out in the wild and starts up something, I might play along relative to some head canon I have established for my usual name choices/archetypes. For the most part, it's pretty much safe to say that anything not in say/emote range should be considered OOC, even if someone wants to act ICly in that OOC context.

Smut play is something I can't bring myself to be inherently against, but at the same time, understand why doing it in "public" is irksome (children, personal sensibilities, some people being god awful at it, etc.). This is one of those instances where personal housing and the like is a good thing where people interested in such can isolate themselves and do what-the-****-ever. Yet, not all games have that, and I'm also cognizant of the reality some people actually get off by doing things in public. And since say/emote code rarely considers obstructions like walls or doors, we get stuck in a situation where games that lack private settings either mean moving to tells/whispers or getting everyone else in on the act whether we like it or not. Which also takes us back to the naked dancing example of how the world would handle it. And to just play off my sig a bit, the US does have things fairly screwed up with its glorification of violence, but shaming of any and all things sexual. Then stuff like Game of Thrones comes along and winds up popular, in part, because it's HBO flipping those norms the bird.

Guess part of me feels like the fact we're even having this conversation emphasizes how absent the RP element has actually become in MMOs. I know some would try to spin that as what role you play in the trinity, but it's not the whole picture. Oh well.
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