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PSA: ToS 3.3 is srs bsns, profanity = account suicideFollow

#27 Apr 16 2017 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sorry that I got honors in lit?
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#28 Apr 16 2017 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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It's nice to see that "I'm just being honest" still really means "I want an excuse to be an a-hole but I can't come up with a legitimate one."
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svlyons wrote:
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#29 Apr 16 2017 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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So it's better to lie out of sensitivity towards the cripplingly fragile?
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#30 Apr 16 2017 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually Call. It's ironic that you are giving me a hard time over this, considering your signature. A mentor freaked out on me and booted me when i dared to fight back all over a stupid angel pomander which you don't even need to beat the **** boss (did i mention i was 90 90 mnk? i was 70 70 before going past 30). 48 hour ban because a premade, probably adults who were not suicidal, abused this ambiguous language within 3.3 to get me spite banned, over either an acronym or the word fk.

edit
come on hehe, only 2 more hours to go. entertain me with more witty psychoanalyses, and enlighten me with more logical fallacies.

Edited, Apr 17th 2017 1:17am by TofuReaper
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#31 Apr 17 2017 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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I am leaving Zam now and never coming back, like most of the ff community lol.


What ever happened to this?
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#32 Apr 17 2017 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I am leaving Zam now and never coming back, like most of the ff community lol.


What ever happened to this?


Never is a lot less time than I thought.
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svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#33 Apr 17 2017 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lyrailis wrote:
And really, profanity is never necessary. I don't use it, and I've never had need to use it, ever.
Great, you've lived a sheltered life and never had any hardships. Sit back down in your bubble. They're just words, you're not any better as a person just because you choose to not say certain ones.
TofuReaper wrote:
entertain me with more witty psychoanalyses
You fucked up a fight and got called out on it, you retaliated but went too far and found yourself banned by the rules you knew existed and decided to ignore anyway, you came here to play the victim only telling the parts of the story that you felt were flattering to your narrative while trying to show what is pretty standard ToS as some how unreasonable, and when you didn't get the sympathy you were looking for you fell back into the belligerent behavior that got you in trouble with the game.

That about cover everything?
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#34 Apr 17 2017 at 9:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Callinon wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I am leaving Zam now and never coming back, like most of the ff community lol.


What ever happened to this?


Never is a lot less time than I thought.


Now he is gone, gotta abuse the report function with:

Quote:

You are really witty. I hope zam pays you the big bucks ;) please kill yourself you smug piece of **** :) enjoy moderating pretentious and half-witted neckbeards :)
#35 Apr 17 2017 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
You are really witty. I hope zam pays you the big bucks ;) please kill yourself you smug piece of **** :) enjoy moderating pretentious and half-witted neckbeards :)


Classic!

This dude was a true KillingIfrit throwback. He's probably too young though to know what that means.

Edited, Apr 17th 2017 8:31am by Thayos
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#36 Apr 17 2017 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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Aww, there was at least two days worth of ranting there.

Smiley: glare
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#37 Apr 17 2017 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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This is where he goes to Reddit and tells the same story except that now it's about how Zam was mean to him.
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svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#38 Apr 17 2017 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Haha, yes!
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#39 Apr 20 2017 at 1:19 AM Rating: Good
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*checks thread*

Welp, now I'm getting flashbacks of Rog trying to rationalize that being mean to total strangers is a good thing.

Otherwise, just seems a case of people thinking the net is the wild, wild west and when some host somewhere actually decides to enforce their ToS, it's the evil SJW libs (as current term of choice) ruining everything for everyone because they totally don't understand the joke. Don Rickles they are not.

Otherwise, it just kinda emphasizes the differences in perceived normalcy. Be it cordial vs. pottymouth, casual vs. hardcore, coke vs. pepsi, or whatever, odds are there's a lack of empathy somewhere when suddenly encountering disagreement. Call me draconian, but I don't feel games everywhere enforce their ToS enough. And I tend to blame the dollar for that, especially if sub fees are involved.
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#40 Apr 20 2017 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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Call me draconian, but I don't feel games everywhere enforce their ToS enough. And I tend to blame the dollar for that, especially if sub fees are involved.


You're not wrong. Technical breaches of the terms of service have to be weighed against the financial impact of enforcing at that level evenly. For instance, using Windower pretty explicitly breaks FFXI's terms of service. But actually banning all Windower users would be financial suicide for that game. So we start talking about gradations of enforcement. Where the line gets drawn between a technical breach and actual enforcement of the ToS as written.

In general most games tend to draw the line at being a jerk about it. You can use Windower as long as you're not being a jerk about it. You can swear in a public channel as long as you're not being a jerk about it. And it's all up to the GM that reviews the report where that line is.
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svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#41 Apr 20 2017 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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If you drink Dr Pooper you're a Pooper, too
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Sometimes the Terms of Service deserve to be broken.
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George Carlin wrote:
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#42 Apr 20 2017 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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Well... that happened.
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svlyons wrote:
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#43 Apr 20 2017 at 2:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, ZAM's filters are just out of this world ridiculous, far far worse than any other website I have ever been to.

With that said... it comes down to the Spirit of the Law vs. the Letter of the Law.

The spirit behind the ToS in XIV is to keep things civil, to keep things appropriate for 13 year olds, and to give everybody a pleasant play experience. The occasional "WTF" upon something weird happening that causes a wipe or some-such, they probably won't care about (even though it does break the ToS technically).

However, if you're telling people to "KYS", then that is very much not appropriate by any means, and that will get actioned rather fast and rightly so.

Also, they never tell you the result of an investigation -- if someone who reported you was doing the same or worse, chances are, they got the boot too, because the GMs are going to look at the logs and they're going to see everything that was said relevant to the conversation, and if both sides were breaking the ToS and being jerks... then both sides are probably going to get action taken, even if that is never said.

So, the OP whining about the people who reported him... said people probably got their own temp bans/suspensions/warnings/whatever if they were indeed doing what he claimed they were doing.

So, short in point: Don't break the ToS and then report someone else for breaking the ToS. It can and probably will backfire, lol.

To be honest, I wouldn't touch the report function unless I knew that I did absolutely nothing wrong, absolutely nothing against the ToS. That's one of the reasons I don't use profanity, and if someone starts irritating me, I just take a step back and try not to reply. That way, if I gotta report the guy, I'm not guilty myself.

Edited, Apr 20th 2017 4:27pm by Lyrailis
#44 Apr 20 2017 at 7:20 PM Rating: Excellent
I've only reported one person in FFXIV ever, and it was for the person using racial slurs toward a player with a Spanish-sounding name.

Zero tolerance for racism -- that is not unreasonable.

Zero tolerance for "KYS" as well.

I'm 100 percent confident that TofuWarrior or whatever his name was fully deserved his punishment. Even now, in this moment, he's probably just somewhere else acting like a 5-year old and blaming his sadness on others.
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#45 Apr 20 2017 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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I've yet to report anybody myself...

But yeah, Racism is definitely one of those things I would.
#46 Apr 21 2017 at 6:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Is profanity actually against the TOS in XIV? Cause in an online game that's asinine. That's what the profanity filter is for.

I tend to curse a lot but I'm past the point of going off on people. The most I'll do is call someone a dumbass if they're being one.
#47 Apr 21 2017 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Call me draconian, but I don't feel games everywhere enforce their ToS enough. And I tend to blame the dollar for that, especially if sub fees are involved.


You're not wrong. Technical breaches of the terms of service have to be weighed against the financial impact of enforcing at that level evenly. For instance, using Windower pretty explicitly breaks FFXI's terms of service. But actually banning all Windower users would be financial suicide for that game. So we start talking about gradations of enforcement. Where the line gets drawn between a technical breach and actual enforcement of the ToS as written.

In general most games tend to draw the line at being a jerk about it. You can use Windower as long as you're not being a jerk about it. You can swear in a public channel as long as you're not being a jerk about it. And it's all up to the GM that reviews the report where that line is.


I find it telling where Global Chats are pretty much affirmed as cesspools on the numerous games out there. The common factor, unlike a guild, linkshell, or private chat (if an option) is that the players ultimately lack control in punishing their peers (by booting them) if something goes afoul. So, while we're ultimately told that's a job for the GMs, we simultaneously tend to know that these are often underpaid and overworked employees who probably don't understand the nuances of the very games they're policing. As result, the bad behaviors tend to persist with the only real option for the player is to employ the blacklist function when/if GM intervention proves ineffective. Now, I know some games have additional safeguards like X number of reports may temporarily mute someone, but sometimes that's character instead of account specific or it's a very short term silencing.

I know when I was more active in Rift, there was pretty much a running gag of people seeing how much they could mess with the RP servers. This included obvious Out of Character conversation in active play areas, breaking naming conventions (like using celebrity or political names or meme references), and the usual global/zone drivel. Blacklists may have handled the chat-related nuisances, but they couldn't stop people from dancing naked between yourself and others, utilizing other noisy emotes, and essentially being a pest. The real rub here was that such behaviors were implicitly violations within the game's ToS when it came to the RP shards, but it virtually never, ever seemed enforced. The sub fee theory, at the time, was really the only reason people could discern why short of Trion of not actually caring.

Yet, I also can't help but entertain the possibility of kicking those few bad apples resulting in a greater long term gain relative to people who quit out of frustration for their continued presence. And when it comes to MMOs, something I frankly don't see enough of is a mix of exit surveys (if canceling a sub) or emails after a long period of activity inquiring why one might no longer be playing. Both should obviously include multiple options, as it all snowballs into (usually) legitimate reasons, but if a common thread found is something along the lines of, "I disliked how others interacted with me." then it stands to reason something may be up. And if a field for specificity is present, even better. Of course, this is where some would prattle about safe spaces, or thick skin, but my persistent thinking on this over the years has always been, "Why are we tolerating people being mean for no reason?" Why is it the expectation that it's okay, and that it essentially WILL happen? This isn't me saying everyone needs to be friends, but is being civil really that difficult?

And in before the occasional blow up I've had on people usually out of reaction to persistent activity. Spoiler: There've been reasons for that.

Edited, Apr 21st 2017 8:43am by Seriha
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#48 Apr 21 2017 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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Of course, this is where some would prattle about safe spaces, or thick skin, but my persistent thinking on this over the years has always been, "Why are we tolerating people being mean for no reason?" Why is it the expectation that it's okay, and that it essentially WILL happen? This isn't me saying everyone needs to be friends, but is being civil really that difficult?


I really, really don't understand this either.

But then I suppose some people have this mindset that they need to make everybody else miserable so that they can be happy. Like I said to TofuWarrior or whatever their stupid name was, these people are sad, sad people who feel the need to bully others for self-gratification, and then there's also the people who know deep down inside they suck, but as soon as they see someone ELSE make a mistake, they can point the finger and shift blame away from themselves to someone else.

And then there's the complete lack of empathy for your fellow person, and you see that even outside of gaming in normal life everywhere, where people just have no empathy, no consideration for other peoples' wants, feelings, or needs. It's all MEMEMEMEMEMEME, extreme selfishness for these people. They don't care, nor do they ever think, about the effect their actions might have on others around them. They only care about what the end result for themselves is.

As time goes on, it seems to me that this just keeps getting worse and worse.

I don't like to see nitpicky punishments over stupid little crap, but yet the other side of the spectrum is even worse, where you have things like pr0nshire in WoW going unpunished, blatant and obvious abuse of ToS left-and-right, and the GMs don't even care. But yet, the dollar rules all apparently. The couple hundred some people who hang out in pr0nshire is a few thousand bucks a month, and you better bet that Blizzard cares about a few thousand of month, despite the fact they rake in tens of millions in revenue.

Edited, Apr 21st 2017 9:18am by Lyrailis
#49 Apr 21 2017 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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I've seen a few MMOs, specifically those geared toward young kids, that do enforce standards of language quite harshly. I saw one that went so far as to require approval of your character's name before it could be seen by others. But once again these were games geared toward younger kids (like 10 years old or younger). I think there's a concession on the more mainstream games that it just plain isn't worth enforcing language rules super harshly. As long as it's not something like encouraging suicide (Smiley: rolleyes) or racial epithets or the like, they just figure the ignore function can probably handle it.

Now when it comes to RP servers, that's a whole different thing. How harshly do you enforce in-character behavior? Who gets to decide what is or is not in-character for a particular player? I understand the frustration when you're trying to have an RP session with your friends and develop your story when some jackass starts dancing naked in between you, or doing noisy emotes or ground-effect spells or something. But I'm not sure what the company can reasonably do about that. For RP servers, I've always felt the "RP" tag was pretty much just that, a tag for people to know that role playing is encouraged on that server and you're likely to find other people to role play with. It's an indicator and nothing else.

As for Moon Guard Goldshire.... it's a phenomenon. It would probably actually be BAD for Blizzard to lower the boom on that after it being a meme for so long.

Edited, Apr 21st 2017 9:05am by Callinon
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#50 Apr 21 2017 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:
I've yet to report anybody myself...
I'm reported at least once or twice a week for my posts on Zam.

Granted, I'm the one doing the reporting and it's for the constant double posts ...
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#51 Apr 21 2017 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
Now when it comes to RP servers, that's a whole different thing. How harshly do you enforce in-character behavior? Who gets to decide what is or is not in-character for a particular player? I understand the frustration when you're trying to have an RP session with your friends and develop your story when some jackass starts dancing naked in between you, or doing noisy emotes or ground-effect spells or something. But I'm not sure what the company can reasonably do about that. For RP servers, I've always felt the "RP" tag was pretty much just that, a tag for people to know that role playing is encouraged on that server and you're likely to find other people to role play with. It's an indicator and nothing else.


While I understand the implication of gray areas or who should really be calling the shots, some things are pretty cut and dry. If you make a character that looks like and is named Donald Trump, and then go on to be a "deplorable" to people, you're not exactly trying to fit the theme established by the setting. Like with the naked dancing, if attempting to correlate to a true setting, you'd probably get thrown out of the tavern or have guards escorting you to a cell for disorderly conduct. Overall, that doesn't "happen" because AI and such isn't configured for it, but at the same time, GMs make a poor last resort.

While I RP more on MU*s, myself, I've always been more inclined to pick the RP servers of games I pick up because the general population tends to be more laid back about the actual mechanical aspects of the game proper. I've never felt pressured to RP, and if someone chances onto me out in the wild and starts up something, I might play along relative to some head canon I have established for my usual name choices/archetypes. For the most part, it's pretty much safe to say that anything not in say/emote range should be considered OOC, even if someone wants to act ICly in that OOC context.

Smut play is something I can't bring myself to be inherently against, but at the same time, understand why doing it in "public" is irksome (children, personal sensibilities, some people being god awful at it, etc.). This is one of those instances where personal housing and the like is a good thing where people interested in such can isolate themselves and do what-the-****-ever. Yet, not all games have that, and I'm also cognizant of the reality some people actually get off by doing things in public. And since say/emote code rarely considers obstructions like walls or doors, we get stuck in a situation where games that lack private settings either mean moving to tells/whispers or getting everyone else in on the act whether we like it or not. Which also takes us back to the naked dancing example of how the world would handle it. And to just play off my sig a bit, the US does have things fairly screwed up with its glorification of violence, but shaming of any and all things sexual. Then stuff like Game of Thrones comes along and winds up popular, in part, because it's HBO flipping those norms the bird.

Guess part of me feels like the fact we're even having this conversation emphasizes how absent the RP element has actually become in MMOs. I know some would try to spin that as what role you play in the trinity, but it's not the whole picture. Oh well.
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