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New Changes to stats and Battle SystemFollow

#1 May 23 2017 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2017/6273.html

So based on the stuff Im looking at.

Does no accuracy on equipment mean youll get "good enough" accuracy just by being the right level and thus will no longer have to worry bout hitting acc cap on your gear to do the more hardcore raids?

Also as for role actions being limited to 5. How detrimental would that be to the currently play style? i.e how many cross cross abilities are we currently limited too (its been awhile since Ive played)

Lastly one of the pics says current issues:

Overly Complex

Casual vs hardcore play disparity

Too many actions not enough hotbar space (though umm getting new abilities from 60-70 and limiting cross class actions to 5 which is thing is already the current limit anyway isnt really fixing tat problem as we will still have the same or even MORE abilities when we hit 70)


Does that mean youll no longer need to be a DPS master/Rotation specialist to get into savage raid groups or extreme fights, all youll need now is knowing the mechanics and youll win even if you haven't mastered the arts of rotation or dps for your job?. Because thats the ONLY thing I can see standing in the way of the "overly complex" and "casual vs hardcore play disparity" issues.

If so then these changes are GREAT
#2 May 23 2017 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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Does no accuracy on equipment mean youll get "good enough" accuracy just by being the right level and thus will no longer have to worry bout hitting acc cap on your gear to do the more hardcore raids?


Basically yeah. What they're saying is that you'll have 100% accuracy from the front of a target and more than that from the flanks and rear. This accounts for things like evasion buffs on a boss or blind effects on a player. They're also adding something called "direct hits" which I guess do more damage but that isn't entirely clear, and adjusting rates of critical hits based on accuracy. So it'll still be a good idea to not be standing in front of a boss unless you're a tank, you just won't have to shuffle your gear every fight to reach an accuracy cap.

Quote:
Also as for role actions being limited to 5. How detrimental would that be to the currently play style? i.e how many cross cross abilities are we currently limited too (its been awhile since Ive played)


We currently have 5 cross-class skills settable. Of which 3 tend to be useful and 2 are to fill in the slots, depending on job. What remains to be seen is exactly which skills end up in this category. There may be some interesting decisions to make depending on what you need for a particular fight. We'll have to see.

Quote:
Too many actions not enough hotbar space (though umm getting new abilities from 60-70 and limiting cross class actions to 5 which is thing is already the current limit anyway isnt really fixing tat problem as we will still have the same or even MORE abilities when we hit 70)


The stated goal is to have about the same number of buttons at 70 as we do now at 60. A lot of abilities are being removed or consolidated to make this happen.

Quote:
Does that mean youll no longer need to be a DPS master/Rotation specialist to get into savage raid groups or extreme fights, all youll need now is knowing the mechanics and youll win even if you haven't mastered the arts of rotation or dps for your job?. Because thats the ONLY thing I can see standing in the way of the "overly complex" and "casual vs hardcore play disparity" issues.


The short answer is we don't know. The longer answer is probably not because you're still going to have a lot of buttons and stuff to watch and a rotation and priority system to master. The new UI elements for each job will help a lot in reducing visual clutter and having to watch 32 cooldowns at once to be good at your job. But again, we really just don't know. We don't have enough information to say definitively what rotations are going to look like at 70.
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#3 May 23 2017 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Thank god the consolidated combo's under one button is just for PVP.

I quite like the Parrying being changed to increased tank damage, and reduced damage taken. I feel that's something tanks really needed. Even at max gear even my PLD was struggling occasionally with some of the raiders that ended up in my roulettes.

So far i'm pretty enthuisiastic, i dont want them taking abilities away though. If anything just give us an "equip" for them like cross-class abilities so you can atleast pick what you want over just removing them outright. Especially on PLD i use all of my abilities, not a single one goes unused...
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#4 May 23 2017 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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KojiroSoma wrote:
Thank god the consolidated combo's under one button is just for PVP.

I quite like the Parrying being changed to increased tank damage, and reduced damage taken. I feel that's something tanks really needed. Even at max gear even my PLD was struggling occasionally with some of the raiders that ended up in my roulettes.

So far i'm pretty enthuisiastic, i dont want them taking abilities away though. If anything just give us an "equip" for them like cross-class abilities so you can atleast pick what you want over just removing them outright. Especially on PLD i use all of my abilities, not a single one goes unused...


Yeah, but some could either be consolidated, or something....

For example, Rage of Halone vs Royal Authority.

They both occupy the same slot on your Rotation (Post-Savage Blade), but yet you still need both, because RA does more damage than RoH. However, RoH is needed because it has increased enmity and strength down.

What I wish they would have done would be to simply merge RoH and RA together, or give RA the same Strength Down and Increased Enmity so that you can simply take RoH off the hotbar once you learn RA.

I.... don't need.... two... abilities that do almost exactly the same thing on an already-cluttered hotbar.

That, and I wish they'd move Goring Blade from Riot Blade to Savage Blade. If I am using Riot Blade, it is to restore MP after using Clemency. If I'm doing that, I don't need ANOTHER 1.5 seconds before I can Riot Blade again if I use Goring Blade. If I need MP now, I'm going to skip Goring Blade, and go back to Fast Blade so I can Riot Blade again sooner.

If I want Goring Blade, I don't want to have to Riot Blade at full MP because that's a waste of damage and enmity gain.
#5 May 23 2017 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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That, and I wish they'd move Goring Blade from Riot Blade to Savage Blade. If I am using Riot Blade, it is to restore MP after using Clemency. If I'm doing that, I don't need ANOTHER 1.5 seconds before I can Riot Blade again if I use Goring Blade. If I need MP now, I'm going to skip Goring Blade, and go back to Fast Blade so I can Riot Blade again sooner.


Probably a better solution would be to give PLD something akin to Blood Price. If they're going to keep making PLDs burn their MP left and right I don't think they'll have any choice but to give them some decent mechanism to replenish it.
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#6 May 23 2017 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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Agreed on the skill consolidation thing. Why isn't Royal Authority just a trait that modifies Rage of Halone? Why are Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust and separate abilities instead of just being built into Full/Chaos Thrust? Etc... It's crazy that all things stay in the rotation forever, while more just gets added on top of it. Hopefully this new system will alleviate some of that.
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#7 May 23 2017 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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I also saw the video of the new class actions, and eh... the UI element looks cool, but I'm afraid it might be a bit distracting, yet something else you need to keep your eyes on instead of the action on the field.

I like the idea, but I'm concerned about how closely I need to pay attention to it.
#8 May 23 2017 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:


Probably a better solution would be to give PLD something akin to Blood Price. If they're going to keep making PLDs burn their MP left and right I don't think they'll have any choice but to give them some decent mechanism to replenish it.


Well, there's Sheltron but I keep forgetting that it exists and that it has an Additional Effect: MP Restore on it, nor do I know exactly how much MP it actually restores. It's got a relatively short cooldown, so a couple Riot Blades and a Sheltron... who knows. Better than nothing, at least.
#9 May 23 2017 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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I'm a little worried about that too, but on the other hand, if it means I don't have to keep tracking half a dozen different maintenance buffs, I'm all for it.
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#10 May 23 2017 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I also saw the video of the new class actions, and eh... the UI element looks cool, but I'm afraid it might be a bit distracting, yet something else you need to keep your eyes on instead of the action on the field.

I like the idea, but I'm concerned about how closely I need to pay attention to it.


The trick is going to be placing it on your UI properly. But there's a good reason high level WoW players make such a big deal about WeakAuras. The ability to consolidate a large amount of information into a compact space is HUGE.

It's the one addon I keep missing not having in FFXIV.
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#11 May 23 2017 at 10:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I also saw the video of the new class actions, and eh... the UI element looks cool, but I'm afraid it might be a bit distracting, yet something else you need to keep your eyes on instead of the action on the field.

I like the idea, but I'm concerned about how closely I need to pay attention to it.


The trick is going to be placing it on your UI properly. But there's a good reason high level WoW players make such a big deal about WeakAuras. The ability to consolidate a large amount of information into a compact space is HUGE.

It's the one addon I keep missing not having in FFXIV.


See, that's the one thing I never liked about WoW.

AddOn Authors and Raiders try to make raids easier by making AddOns to make stuff like WeakAuras and Deadly Boss Mods, but then Blizzard responds by making these bosses so hard that said AddOns are basically a 100% requirement in any serious raiding, and we're back to square one; the only thing we've managed to do is to place a burden on every player to download and maintain 3rd party *required* AddOns.

That's one of the reasons I LIKE FFXIV -- I don't need to rely upon certain AddOns, which of course almost always break every major update and you got to hope the authors are on their toes and get the thing updated quickly, blah blah blah.

I always hated that kind of thing.
#12 May 23 2017 at 11:51 PM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Does that mean youll no longer need to be a DPS master/Rotation specialist to get into savage raid groups or extreme fights, all youll need now is knowing the mechanics and youll win even if you haven't mastered the arts of rotation or dps for your job?. Because thats the ONLY thing I can see standing in the way of the "overly complex" and "casual vs hardcore play disparity" issues.

If so then these changes are GREAT


As I was listening strictly to what Yoshida said vs what she translated (due to different terminology and such the versions use) You'll still have to be a "rotation master" because this game is based around rotations. Due to media embargo can't say much, but needless to say, a DPS will have to master their "new" rotation, it's just a lot more "in your face" with the job gauges now. Basically what he said was "It's easier to pick up but harder to master." So people who are able to clear content with 0 issues now will master the new systems in no time, compared to people who still struggle doing a basic level 50 rotation at 60.

Since the only real issue with casual vs core play, is the fact many gamers chose not to improve themselves, which is also part of the game's fault by not challenging players as they're progressing, instead only shoving it at the very end so it was very much "optional" if you were actually good at this game or not, and as much as people have issues with reading that, just really look at how you can still clear content without much effort put into it outside of certain Ex Primals (Zurvan, Nidhogg) and 3.5 Savage Content (A11 and 12s requires good coordination.) I know people generally say 'fun/challenge is subjective' but the most infamous change is how they had to nerf an early story quest because people were complaining it's too hard when all they had to do was use the antidote you were given in a previous story quest..as they tell you..to counteract the poison they're known to use. So instead of making the game harder, they're trying to level the playing field in a sense, but the real details can't be talked about yet (but you should start seeing it pop up this week.)

The battle system will basically play out like 2.x > 3.x jump in that it's familiar enough but there's some things to learn since we all hear about people who quit BRD because of casting, same with MCH, yet they're two of the strongest DPS's when played correctly, but a 'standard brd' will do less damage than a WHM. So they wanted to try to get rid of stuff like that..HOWEVER, throw a person who knows how to play and a person who doesn't at the same monster/boss/training dummy and see night & day differences, the new changes will still be the same as they didn't revamp the entire battle system. So if you're an amazing DRG (for example) people will want you. If you're not...no one will want you if "statics" are the only way for you to play. The only way this will change is by changing the core battle system.


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#13 May 24 2017 at 4:11 AM Rating: Good
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I know people generally say 'fun/challenge is subjective' but the most infamous change is how they had to nerf an early story quest because people were complaining it's too hard when all they had to do was use the antidote you were given in a previous story quest..as they tell you..to counteract the poison they're known to use.


One thing I wish they would have nerfed is freaking Ravana.

I am SO sick of wiping in Thok ast Thok when it comes up in the Trials roulette. I really don't get why they felt that making the stupid thing that freaking hard was such a great idea. There's just so many mechanics that your average PUG has trouble dealing with, and the last 2-3 times he came up, we wound up with wipes, people dropping group, etc.

The greatest offender has to be that stupid butterfly phase, and of course the million knockback things he does.

But anyways, sorry about the digression, still annoyed at having this happen yesterday.
#14 May 24 2017 at 6:58 AM Rating: Decent
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While I have only had Ravana come up a few times, I really haven't had any issues with it. The fight is actually pretty easy. He has a lot of annoying moves, but he telegraphs most of them with plenty of time to dodge. As long as at least half of your party knows the fight it isn't that bad at all.
#15 May 24 2017 at 7:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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AddOn Authors and Raiders try to make raids easier by making AddOns to make stuff like WeakAuras and Deadly Boss Mods, but then Blizzard responds by making these bosses so hard that said AddOns are basically a 100% requirement in any serious raiding, and we're back to square one; the only thing we've managed to do is to place a burden on every player to download and maintain 3rd party *required* AddOns.


Eh... other than boss mods, which are basically stopwatches, there aren't that many "required" addons in WoW. Addons are a tool you use to tweak your UI. They're a way for you to make yourself a better player by tailoring the information you're being fed to your own individual needs. By having a UI that's delivering information to you exactly the way you want it to, it stops being a game of playing the UI and starts being a game of playing the content.

Now my WoW UI was extensively modified with each piece positioned and configured just so. Did I NEED to do that? No. Did I enjoy setting it up? Yep. It's fun for me. And it helped me to become a better player because I could devote my attention to situational awareness and raid callouts instead of watching various corners of my screen for debuffs or cooldowns or ground markers, all of which by default are nowhere near each other.

Quote:
One thing I wish they would have nerfed is freaking Ravana.


He's a pain at first. But then you get used to him and realize his abilities are entirely scripted until the last phase. So once you know the dance, you just dance with him. Like Turin said, as long as about half your party knows what they're doing, you should be fine. Ravana is actually the HW EX primal I don't mind farming because I can basically just turn my brain off and go because I've done it so many times.

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Since the only real issue with casual vs core play, is the fact many gamers chose not to improve themselves, which is also part of the game's fault by not challenging players as they're progressing, instead only shoving it at the very end so it was very much "optional" if you were actually good at this game or not, and as much as people have issues with reading that, just really look at how you can still clear content without much effort put into it outside of certain Ex Primals (Zurvan, Nidhogg) and 3.5 Savage Content (A11 and 12s requires good coordination.)


Well sort of... the game DOES ramp up the challenge if you progress via dungeons. Brayflox is a lot harder than Copperbell for instance, and Stone Vigil is a lot harder than Brayflox. But when people are leveling entirely by spamming PotD they aren't really learning much.

And that's not going away anytime soon.

The nature of a particular player to either improve or not isn't something SE can change. There will always be people willing to skate through with minimal effort. When it comes to challenging endgame content like savage, then it stops working until they can be carried. There's no use in complaining that such a player exists because they've always existed and will always exist. This is what statics are for.
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#16 May 25 2017 at 5:32 AM Rating: Good
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I don't agree with the 'infamy' of the antidote reference. One, it was barely a footnote - two, the fight was poorly scripted. IF you used antidote too early, you got poisoned again, and could flat out die from it before reinforcements arrived. Considering that moment is the one and only time you're forced to use a non-key item in a fight, the whole thing was pointless, even as a tutorial.

On the battle system changes - I'm on wait and see mode. There are a lot of skills that weren't on display or hotbars, and while we were assured that they may not have been removed, I'd like confirmation of the full skill lists before weighing in on things. They might have stripped things too far down for my comfort - especially after seeing that a lot of key standbys in former subskill system failed to get equivalents.
#17 May 25 2017 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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So perhaps slightly off topic, but PLD MP regen was mentioned earlier in the thread and I thought I'd share some more on it:

Last night I did Sohm Al (Hard) and I had a chance to do some actual testing with Sheltron, and I've come to the conclusion that it is a rather nice ability. At first, I kinda just shrugged at it, and it didn't help that I had done several low-level duties in a row after getting it and nearly forgot it was even sitting there on my hotbars unused.

At i240, I have ~5000 MP. Clemency costs about ~2100 or so and Flash costs about ~790-ish. Riot Blade restores 488 and I discovered that Sheltron restores about 720.

That's actually not bad! That's almost a free Flash, or a head-start on restoring MP from a Clemency, in fact that's what I started using it for -- use Sheltron after Clemency lol. I might start also using it more often in actual trash pulls, too. Perhaps after the 2nd Flash. It's got a pretty short cooldown, like 36-38 seconds which puts it right on par with Scorn and Spirits, so it's meant to be spammed.

Edited, May 25th 2017 12:01pm by Lyrailis
#18 May 26 2017 at 7:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Does that mean youll no longer need to be a DPS master/Rotation specialist to get into savage raid groups or extreme fights, all youll need now is knowing the mechanics and youll win even if you haven't mastered the arts of rotation or dps for your job?. Because thats the ONLY thing I can see standing in the way of the "overly complex" and "casual vs hardcore play disparity" issues.

If so then these changes are GREAT


As I was listening strictly to what Yoshida said vs what she translated (due to different terminology and such the versions use) You'll still have to be a "rotation master" because this game is based around rotations. Due to media embargo can't say much, but needless to say, a DPS will have to master their "new" rotation, it's just a lot more "in your face" with the job gauges now. Basically what he said was "It's easier to pick up but harder to master." So people who are able to clear content with 0 issues now will master the new systems in no time, compared to people who still struggle doing a basic level 50 rotation at 60.

Since the only real issue with casual vs core play, is the fact many gamers chose not to improve themselves, which is also part of the game's fault by not challenging players as they're progressing, instead only shoving it at the very end so it was very much "optional" if you were actually good at this game or not, and as much as people have issues with reading that, just really look at how you can still clear content without much effort put into it outside of certain Ex Primals (Zurvan, Nidhogg) and 3.5 Savage Content (A11 and 12s requires good coordination.) I know people generally say 'fun/challenge is subjective' but the most infamous change is how they had to nerf an early story quest because people were complaining it's too hard when all they had to do was use the antidote you were given in a previous story quest..as they tell you..to counteract the poison they're known to use. So instead of making the game harder, they're trying to level the playing field in a sense, but the real details can't be talked about yet (but you should start seeing it pop up this week.)

The battle system will basically play out like 2.x > 3.x jump in that it's familiar enough but there's some things to learn since we all hear about people who quit BRD because of casting, same with MCH, yet they're two of the strongest DPS's when played correctly, but a 'standard brd' will do less damage than a WHM. So they wanted to try to get rid of stuff like that..HOWEVER, throw a person who knows how to play and a person who doesn't at the same monster/boss/training dummy and see night & day differences, the new changes will still be the same as they didn't revamp the entire battle system. So if you're an amazing DRG (for example) people will want you. If you're not...no one will want you if "statics" are the only way for you to play. The only way this will change is by changing the core battle system.




Its not an issue of not wanting to get good but mote like lacking the ability to do so. I mean not everyone can memorize a complex strung of ability combinations or have the timing or reflexes to pull em off at the right time or speed. Its just like playing a gighting game I could watch all the combo videos there are, read and memorize every combo guide or even have ON SCREEN combos displayed as you play. But that doesnt mean I have the skill, timing or reflexes to pull them off.

Thats why I play RPGs as they usualky dont require all that, in togs the only skills you need is a brain and strategy. Fights in single player rpg and older mmos came down to knowing everythng your enemy was going to do and having a plan suited to your skill, abilties and playstyle to deal with it, and having the right stats and or level, though with a GOOD plan even stats and level werent needed. You didnt need to know how to press buttons fast or in the right order to maximize your danage, you just needed the right skills, abilities, stats, food and buffs... then xiv "and wow" came along and ruined that by making an mmo that requires more fighting game like playing skills and less rpg skills
#19 May 26 2017 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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You didnt need to know how to press buttons fast or in the right order to maximize your danage, you just needed the right skills, abilities, stats, food and buffs.


Of course you did.

It was different but it wasn't THAT different. Just having the skills and spells wasn't enough if you weren't using them at the right times or as a reaction to the right things. Ask anyone who was responsible for a stun rotation if timing made a difference.

Quote:
then xiv "and wow" came along and ruined that by making an mmo that requires more fighting game like playing skills and less rpg skills


It got faster, that's all. Lately I've been playing FFXI and FFXIV at the same time; more specifically I've been playing SMN in FFXI. I spend all my time doing nothing but tapping out combos: move to the right macro page -> summon avatar -> assault -> use appropriate blood pact -> usually dismiss, move back to top, and start the process for summoning a different avatar -> be ready to either close a skillchain or hit a magic burst -> repeat whole thing about every 30 seconds.

It's slower. That's all.
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#20 May 26 2017 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
You didnt need to know how to press buttons fast or in the right order to maximize your danage, you just needed the right skills, abilities, stats, food and buffs
What? Reaction time and sequence to maximize your efficiency has been a thing since Pac-Man. The only games where reaction time isn't much of a factor are games where you're taking turns, and even then pressing buttons in the right order is pretty important.

Did you ... did you confuse video games for Chutes and Ladders?
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#21 May 26 2017 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Difference with pacman is you only had to worry about up, down, left and right. Not 50 different button combonations that have a string of 7+ buttons to press

Stun rotation is pressing ONE button in the right order of the other players doin the same thing.

Skill chains and magic bursts were pressing ONE button at the right time every 30 SECONDS. BOTH are much easier to manage.

Now if I could put an entire rotation including the timing in ONE macro and press ONE button and watch the game do the rest THEN it wouldnt be an issue however you have to worry about things like moving interrupting the macro also the macro isnt gonna re apply buffs or debuffs and cooldowns and if you do so manually then that would interrupt the macro stream if it was in process when you did it
#22 May 26 2017 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Now if I could put an entire rotation including the timing in ONE macro and press ONE button and watch the game do the rest THEN it wouldnt be an issue


It also wouldn't be much of a game.

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#23 May 26 2017 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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So ffxi wasnt much of a game?
#24 May 26 2017 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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So ffxi wasnt much of a game?
#25 May 26 2017 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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The way you were """""""""playing""""""""" it certainly wasn't.
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#26 May 26 2017 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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So ffxi wasnt much of a game?


FFXI doesn't work the way you described.

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The way you were """""""""playing""""""""" it certainly wasn't.


Not nearly enough quotation marks there.
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#27 May 26 2017 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Ummm in ffxi you could put 5 or 6 things in one macro so yes it worked exactly as i described. Instead of having to memorize 15 abilities and the order to put em in when you can put 5 in one macro and thus only have to worry about 3 buttons
#28 May 26 2017 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Ummm in ffxi you could put 5 or 6 things in one macro so yes it worked exactly as i described. Instead of having to memorize 15 abilities and the order to put em in when you can put 5 in one macro and thus only have to worry about 3 buttons
#29 May 26 2017 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Instead of having to memorize 15 abilities and the order to put em in when you can put 5 in one macro and thus only have to worry about 3 buttons

That's only true in theory. In practice it rarely worked that way. Admittedly I haven't played FFXI in many years so maybe it's different now, but at 75 I only had a few macros across all jobs that actually chained multiple abilities. Mostly people used the extra macro lines for gear swaps, not to chain abilities like that.
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#30 May 26 2017 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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what about a macro to throw u p all your att buffs (berserk, warcry, last resort etc etc) before unleashing a devastating weapon skill?


Or what thief didnt have an SATAWS macro?

or a macro for divine seal Cure tucked in a corner for "just in case"?

#31 May 26 2017 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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For all practical purposes, an FFXI macro did one thing. There were probably some gear swaps involved in that one thing and maybe a short message depending on what the thing was, but they did one thing. If you needed to do more than one thing, you needed more than one macro. And that describes basically every job above level 10.

The fact is, if you wanted to actually be good, your macros got complicated. Like.... really complicated. I've seen large flowcharts drawn for macro planning depending on the job, mostly because each macro only had 6 lines. Want to do things without macros? Welcome to Menu Purgatory, your one stop shop for soul crushing menus, scrolling patterns, and arrow key sequence memorization.
btw this is why we use hotbars for things now, just sayin'

So COULD you put 5 abilities in one macro? I guess. Is that a good idea by any rational measurement? Absolutely not.

Quote:
what about a macro to throw u p all your att buffs (berserk, warcry, last resort etc etc) before unleashing a devastating weapon skill?

Separate buttons because gearswaps exist. Also all those things are rarely on the exact same cooldown and as soon as a job ability fails to activate because it's on cooldown, the whole macro grinds to a halt.

Quote:
Or what thief didnt have an SATAWS macro?

The one that didn't want to accidentally fire an attack round between macro wait states ruining their big hit. SA, TA, and WS are on minimum 3 macros. This got more and more true the higher level you got. My THF right now typically stabs at least 6 or 7 time per attack round and with enough haste it's actually super hard to know when an attack round ends and the next one begins.

Quote:
or a macro for divine seal Cure tucked in a corner for "just in case"?

Maybe... it's a lot safer to put DS on its own macro since your go-to cures are almost certainly already on macros of their own and now you're not having to wait a full second between DS and casting your cure.


Edited, May 26th 2017 3:14pm by Callinon
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#32 May 26 2017 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
For all practical purposes, an FFXI macro did one thing. There were probably some gear swaps involved in that one thing and maybe a short message depending on what the thing was, but they did one thing. If you needed to do more than one thing, you needed more than one macro. And that describes basically every job above level 10.

The fact is, if you wanted to actually be good, your macros got complicated. Like.... really complicated. I've seen large flowcharts drawn for macro planning depending on the job, mostly because each macro only had 6 lines. Want to do things without macros? Welcome to Menu Purgatory, your one stop shop for soul crushing menus, scrolling patterns, and arrow key sequence memorization.
btw this is why we use hotbars for things now, just sayin'

So COULD you put 5 abilities in one macro? I guess. Is that a good idea by any rational measurement? Absolutely not.

Quote:
what about a macro to throw u p all your att buffs (berserk, warcry, last resort etc etc) before unleashing a devastating weapon skill?

Separate buttons because gearswaps exist. Also all those things are rarely on the exact same cooldown and as soon as a job ability fails to activate because it's on cooldown, the whole macro grinds to a halt.

Quote:
Or what thief didnt have an SATAWS macro?

The one that didn't want to accidentally fire an attack round between macro wait states ruining their big hit. SA, TA, and WS are on minimum 3 macros. This got more and more true the higher level you got. My THF right now typically stabs at least 6 or 7 time per attack round and with enough haste it's actually super hard to know when an attack round ends and the next one begins.

Quote:
or a macro for divine seal Cure tucked in a corner for "just in case"?

Maybe... it's a lot safer to put DS on its own macro since your go-to cures are almost certainly already on macros of their own and now you're not having to wait a full second between DS and casting your cure.


Edited, May 26th 2017 3:14pm by Callinon



"Separate buttons because gearswaps exist. Also all those things are rarely on the exact same cooldown and as soon as a job ability fails to activate because it's on cooldown, the whole macro grinds to a halt."


exactly not on the same cooldown so using that huge attack burst would only happen ONCE after that you just use the abilities separately (which you wouldnt need a macro for) until theyre ALL cooled don and youre readying to see a 5+ digit damage number again.


"The one that didn't want to accidentally fire an attack round between macro wait states ruining their big hit. SA, TA, and WS are on minimum 3 macros. This got more and more true the higher level you got. My THF right now typically stabs at least 6 or 7 time per attack round and with enough haste it's actually super hard to know when an attack round ends and the next one begins. "

Umm due to animation and a mere /wait 1 between even ability time I can literally count one one hand the number of times I EVER seen an attack round go off during that macro in the 10+ years Ive been playing.

"Maybe... it's a lot safer to put DS on its own macro since your go-to cures are almost certainly already on macros of their own and now you're not having to wait a full second between DS and casting your cure."

The Divine Seal WOULD have its own Macros. The Divine Seal + <highest Cure tier here> macro would just be for "oh ****" moments which youd rarely have to use.


Also what about a Convert + Cure Macro. Everyone Always re heals themselves after a Convert.. so why no have a macro that does both for you in one button press?





#33 May 26 2017 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
what about a macro to throw u p all your att buffs (berserk, warcry, last resort etc etc) before unleashing a devastating weapon skill?

Or what thief didnt have an SATAWS macro?

Those were the exceptions, not the rule.

DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
or a macro for divine seal Cure tucked in a corner for "just in case"?

Nope. Dive Seal was it's own macro. I might want to use it with different spells after all (single vs AoE, or level cap, or whatever.)

DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Also what about a Convert + Cure Macro. Everyone Always re heals themselves after a Convert.. so why no have a macro that does both for you in one button press?

Again, nope. Healing yourself immediately after a convert isn't always necessary or wanted. I could always just hit the appropriate cure macro at my convenience when I want the heal.


Callinon wrote:
The fact is, if you wanted to actually be good, your macros got complicated. Like.... really complicated. I've seen large flowcharts drawn for macro planning depending on the job, mostly because each macro only had 6 lines. Want to do things without macros? Welcome to Menu Purgatory, your one stop shop for soul crushing menus, scrolling patterns, and arrow key sequence memorization.

Don't forget about typing things directly into the command line. There were something things I didn't even bother to macro. It was faster and more efficient to just type /ma Sneak <me> than to flip through menus or remember where I stashed the macro.

Edited, May 26th 2017 3:31pm by Karlina
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#34 May 26 2017 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Don't forget about typing things directly into the command line. There were something things I didn't even bother to macro. It was faster and more efficient to just type /ma Sneak <me> than to flip through menus or remember where I stashed the macro.


Yep I do that a lot especially with casters. Though back when I was a BLM main I did manually sort my spell list very carefully so that I could find exactly the spell I wanted in the menu very quickly. This was helpful for elemental nukes, whereas utility spells were on macros.

Quote:
Umm due to animation and a mere /wait 1 between even ability time I can literally count one one hand the number of times I EVER seen an attack round go off during that macro in the 10+ years Ive been playing.


Before I leveled THF myself, I used to see this happen constantly because someone's macro misfired. So when I picked up THF myself I decided the best way around that problem was to not have one macro trying to do three things badly.
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#35 May 26 2017 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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Ever since SE buffed Trick Attack, you don't even want SATA on the same macro anyways!

And when I play THF, I manual-select Sneak Attack and then do the WS manual selected without macro. Call me weird, sure, but 99% of the time I get it, np.

But if I were to make it macro, I'd definitely not want to string them both in the same macro, lol. At 119, there's barely a second in between attacks, your character almost looks like a Monk with Hundred Fists. Good luck getting a /wait 1 in there somewhere.
#36 Jun 05 2017 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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So now we are back to what they were trying to accomplish with the original FFXIV a completely mod-able hot bar so you could design your own rotations and customize your hotbar with abilities from all the classes you leveled up.

Edited, Jun 5th 2017 5:40pm by kainsilv
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#37 Jun 12 2017 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
then xiv "and wow" came along and ruined that by making an mmo that requires more fighting game like playing skills and less rpg skills


Eh, stuff like this was in MMOs ages before WoW. Lineage 1 is older than dirt but you could literally die in half a second if you weren't careful (and you lost exp on death and could even de-level...).

As for the topic, does anyone know if GCD length is being changed at all in SB? I heard months back that it was being reduced, but that was hearsay and I've seen nothing of it since...
#38 Jun 12 2017 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
As for the topic, does anyone know if GCD length is being changed at all in SB? I heard months back that it was being reduced, but that was hearsay and I've seen nothing of it since...


No, and I can't think of a reason why it would be.
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#39 Jun 13 2017 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Based on what I played, the GCD changed but only because the calculations @70 are different. (Skill Speed acts more like haste..ish.) But that was SUPPOSEDLY an old build, so who knows later this week.
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#40 Jun 13 2017 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
Quote:
As for the topic, does anyone know if GCD length is being changed at all in SB? I heard months back that it was being reduced, but that was hearsay and I've seen nothing of it since...


No, and I can't think of a reason why it would be.


I can't speak for everyone, but I had several friends try the game and then quit due to the length of the GCD (the length of the MSQ wasn't helping, though they have a quick bypass of that now, thankfully).

Thing is, a 2.5s GCD makes sense at raid level when you have lots going on to take note of, as well as probably 2-3 OGCD skills, but when you're leveling up especially, waiting 2.5s between every button press feels painfully slow.

It sucks because I love everything about FFXIV over WoW EXCEPT for the combat. The crafting is worlds better, the world and story have much more love put into them, the Atma weapon grind may be long and tedious but at least you know what you're getting out of it as opposed to WoW's "legendary lotto"...

I'm not exactly a young man (36), but I don't need to wait 2.5s between every button press. I've burned out trying to level up other jobs just due to how slow combat is at lower levels.

The 2.5s GCD makes perfect sense when dealing with raid mechanics (especially when you don't have crutch addons to notify you of things that are happening), but it makes all other forms of gameplay just generally painful.
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#41 Jun 13 2017 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm not exactly a young man (36), but I don't need to wait 2.5s between every button press. I've burned out trying to level up other jobs just due to how slow combat is at lower levels.


Well I'm only 35 so my teeth aren't being kept in a glass of water next to me just yet.

2.5s IS pretty slow at low levels. But at higher levels, once you have oGCD abilities to weave in, not only is your GCD shorter because of speed stats, but there's more to do within it. I can understand the frustration at low levels, but reducing the GCD length changes combat calculations EVERYWHERE. It would require fights to be redesigned across the game to account for the difference in damage.

Man is that not worth it.
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#42 Jun 13 2017 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
2.5s IS pretty slow at low levels. But at higher levels, once you have oGCD abilities to weave in, not only is your GCD shorter because of speed stats, but there's more to do within it. I can understand the frustration at low levels, but reducing the GCD length changes combat calculations EVERYWHERE. It would require fights to be redesigned across the game to account for the difference in damage.

Man is that not worth it.


It'd be nice if they threw speed stats on lower level gear for that reason.

XIV has some excellent raid encounters that are both fun and challenging, but that enjoyment sits behind a very long slog.

I wish they had released these jump potions years ago when I had convinced my friends to try the game, argh...
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#43 Jun 13 2017 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Eh, hitting the same 2 buttons 2.5 seconds a part, or 1 second apart makes no real difference, you're still doing 1-2 or 1-2-3 over and over again.

It's more to do with them doing this ridiculously slow drip of skills.

Take gladiator for example. Fast Blade -> Savage Blade until what was that again, level TWENTY-SIX!?

If I hit Fast Blade and then wait 2.5 seconds for Savage Blade, it isn't any different than hitting Fast Blade and waiting 1 second for Savage Blade.

It's still just as terrible and boring. What they need is a low-level revamp with more skills. I don't mind 2.5s GCD when I throw RoH, RB, GB, and RA into the mix. Add in there CoS, SW, Sheltron, Clemency, and my cooldowns and I've got buttons that are pushed on a regular basis.

Early game, though? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

EDIT: BTW, WoW paladins weren't any better (Pre-Legion; I quit during Warlords). Judgement->Crusader Strike until you learn that ability I can't remember that uses holy power.

So, Judgment->Crusader Strike until 3 holy power and then that finisher, rinse repeat. yawn. Even the shorter GCD doesn't make it any more interesting. You don't get interesting WoW Ret Paladin until you start getting that instant/free cast exorcism proc, 5 holy power max, and the random holy power procs. THEN, finally, it starts getting fun. But even with shorter GCD, early level WoW paladins are just as boring. You just hit the same 2 buttons twice as often. wow, whoop-de-doo.

Edited, Jun 13th 2017 11:36am by Lyrailis
#44 Jun 13 2017 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Eh, hitting the same 2 buttons 2.5 seconds a part, or 1 second apart makes no real difference, you're still doing 1-2 or 1-2-3 over and over again.


It all hinges on the TTK of the average non-elite monster and the number of rotations it takes.

It's true that most rotations are simple (especially at lower levels), but that's all the more reason you shouldn't have to cycle through them THAT many times to kill something.

I've not mathed out the average TTK, but even with decent gear (since I'm an "everything" crafter), trying to level jobs felt like far too much of a slog for me to want to continue when I tried a few months back.

You're absolutely right that the trickle of skills don't help, though.

It would actually make TONS of sense for them to either give us access to +speed gear at lower levels, or to just apply a blanket boost to speed when you're lower level.

Fewer buttons to hit = a simpler rotation = fewer/hardly any decisions to make, therefore everything could be 2X as fast without consequence.

But max level = more buttons to hit = more decisions to make. Ergo, the 2.5s GCD makes more sense.
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