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#27 Aug 16 2014 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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CoalHeart wrote:
Gbaji, you should NEVER be trying to close the gap to the car in front of you. The idea is to keep a safety cushion in front of you at all times in case s/he suddenly stops.


You don't seem to understand "the gap" when it comes to stop lights and assume the worst just to drag up a 9 day old argument?

"The gap" that traffic lights read is the normal flow of traffic gap.
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#28 Aug 16 2014 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
CoalHeart wrote:
Gbaji, you should NEVER be trying to close the gap to the car in front of you. The idea is to keep a safety cushion in front of you at all times in case s/he suddenly stops.


You don't seem to understand "the gap" when it comes to stop lights and assume the worst just to drag up a 9 day old argument?

"The gap" that traffic lights read is the normal flow of traffic gap.


Gbaji wrote, and I quote "You should be speeding up to enter any gap between you and the cars ahead of you."



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#29 Aug 17 2014 at 4:20 AM Rating: Good
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CoalHeart wrote:

Gbaji wrote, and I quote "You should be speeding up to enter any gap between you and the cars ahead of you."


Yes, but given the context and how stop lights with traffic sensors work, he means to close any large gaps to a normal traffic flow gap. Not a "get up on that guy's a$$" gap.

Edited, Aug 17th 2014 6:21am by TirithRR
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#30 Aug 17 2014 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
CoalHeart wrote:

Gbaji wrote, and I quote "You should be speeding up to enter any gap between you and the cars ahead of you."


Yes, but given the context and how stop lights with traffic sensors work, he means to close any large gaps to a normal traffic flow gap. Not a "get up on that guy's a$$" gap.

Edited, Aug 17th 2014 6:21am by TirithRR



You shouldn't be trying to close ANY gaps. Gaps are good. Sitting at a redlight isn't going to kill you. Smacking into another car or getting T-boned at an intersection very well could.
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#31 Aug 17 2014 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Induction loops that control traffic lights are basically giant metal detectors. If you don't have an engine block parked over them, they don't think your car is there. That's also the main reason why that one intersection you drive through that always seems to be broken doesn't work. Chances are the induction loop is too close to an iron water main lid. At any rate, if you aren't parked over the induction loop, the light only changes at it's maximum "change the light anyways even if there is no car there just in case your induction loop is broken" timer rate.

The new ones they have now are neat. Instead of a big loop, it's just a tiny hocky puck shaped thing you embed into the pavement. Much stronger and doesn't wear out as much as the wires do.
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#32 Aug 17 2014 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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Our intersections use cameras. Probably cause they didn't want to dig up the roads. But you can see them on top of the light poles.

Some of them are adjusted just a tad off though, a couple of the side streets getting on the main highway if you are too far up on the corner waiting to turn, the camera won't register you and the light will never change.

CoalHeart wrote:
You shouldn't be trying to close ANY gaps. Gaps are good. Sitting at a redlight isn't going to kill you. Smacking into another car or getting T-boned at an intersection very well could.


Paranoid overly cautious bullsh*t that doesn't apply well to the majority of driving. Bigger gaps aren't better, and bigger gaps can cause traffic issues.

SAFE gaps based on speeds and traffic are fine.

Edited, Aug 17th 2014 7:09pm by TirithRR
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#33 Aug 17 2014 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Your intersections probably have cameras, but it would be extremely unusual if they were the primary sensor used for traffic light control. Look in the ground in older pavement, you can sometimes see the outline where they have been installed. Nowadays they usually just pave over them which makes telling where they are to ensure you are parked on them problematic. The reason they don't use cameras to sense when a car is there? pavement colored cars and weather related light and color changes. Usually those cameras go to a traffic management center somewhere or speed camera ticket machines. The operators in the TMC can generally override the lights and controll traffic flow in that manner, so sometimes the cameras are used in that manner. but usually it's induction loops. There are a few pressure plate actuated ones out there still, but most of those have been replaced just because they are expensive to maintain.
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#34 Aug 17 2014 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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I was pretty sure the cameras were being used on this intersection. I never saw them install anything under the concrete or tear up anything. The road is pretty smooth other than one corner where they widened it for semis to turn. Even right after they installed the new lights I never saw anything in the concrete below.
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#35 Aug 17 2014 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
Our intersections use cameras. Probably cause they didn't want to dig up the roads. But you can see them on top of the light poles.

Some of them are adjusted just a tad off though, a couple of the side streets getting on the main highway if you are too far up on the corner waiting to turn, the camera won't register you and the light will never change.

CoalHeart wrote:
You shouldn't be trying to close ANY gaps. Gaps are good. Sitting at a redlight isn't going to kill you. Smacking into another car or getting T-boned at an intersection very well could.


Paranoid overly cautious bullsh*t that doesn't apply well to the majority of driving. Bigger gaps aren't better, and bigger gaps can cause traffic issues.

SAFE gaps based on speeds and traffic are fine.

Edited, Aug 17th 2014 7:09pm by TirithRR



Wrong. So wrong in fact that I don't even know where to start, so I won't.

Your opinions are nothing more than trying to defend your poor driving habits. I was going to mention that I drive OTR for a living. That I have a Class A CDL, that I've also had extensive training, both educational theory ( including state-of-the-art simulators) and real world training on closed courses ( with skid plates even) learning everything from hydroplaning passenger cars to jackknife recovery in big rigs. ( 18 wheelers).

But, why bother? There's no way to defeat ignorance fueled by arrogance. Not a personal insult, just a fact, you don't know diddly about safe driving.

EDIT: I will leave you with this though. What is the primary cause of most so called accidents? It's actually quite simple. It's two objects trying to occupy the same space at the same time. A gap, by definition, means this isn't happening. There's no logical, physical or common sense way that a gap could cause an accident.

Edited, Aug 18th 2014 1:32am by CoalHeart
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#36 Aug 18 2014 at 1:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
I was pretty sure the cameras were being used on this intersection. I never saw them install anything under the concrete or tear up anything. The road is pretty smooth other than one corner where they widened it for semis to turn. Even right after they installed the new lights I never saw anything in the concrete below.


They may be under the pavement entirely. Based off your probably location they do use Induction loops in that particular general area. Could always call the DOT and ask, tell em its for a science project or something.

that or just drop a big iron plate in the middle of the road near the stop bar and see if the light changes.
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#37 Aug 18 2014 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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The correct driving gap according to every driving manual I've ever seen. One car length for every 10mph speed.

Driving considerably slower than traffic can be a problem, but I don't see where too much gap can be a problem.
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#38 Aug 18 2014 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:

Paranoid overly cautious bullsh*t that doesn't apply well to the majority of driving. Bigger gaps aren't better, and bigger gaps can cause traffic issues.

SAFE gaps based on speeds and traffic are fine.


Yup. The timers on the loops are configured based on a normal safe rate at which cars will drive over said loops (magnets!). So for any given intersection, based on the safe speed of said intersection, you should be driving in a nice line at the correct (still completely safe) distance from the car in front of you. If you leave a larger gap than the intersection is configured for, the sensor will not trip in the given time period, and the light will begin to cycle to red.

People who are not aware of this will sometimes drive a bit too slow approaching the light and leave a gap that will trigger the cycle change. Those people usually still make it through the light, but the person behind them does not.
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#39 Aug 18 2014 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
I was pretty sure the cameras were being used on this intersection. I never saw them install anything under the concrete or tear up anything. The road is pretty smooth other than one corner where they widened it for semis to turn. Even right after they installed the new lights I never saw anything in the concrete below.

Those cameras are most likely being used for left turn arrow indication. Around here it's what they're used for. If there is nobody in the left turn lane, open green for both sides.
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#40 Aug 18 2014 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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CoalHeart wrote:
Wrong. So wrong in fact that I don't even know where to start, so I won't.

Your opinions are nothing more than trying to defend your poor driving habits. I was going to mention that I drive OTR for a living. That I have a Class A CDL, that I've also had extensive training, both educational theory ( including state-of-the-art simulators) and real world training on closed courses ( with skid plates even) learning everything from hydroplaning passenger cars to jackknife recovery in big rigs. ( 18 wheelers).


You've taken all this training and have never learned how traffic light sensor loops work? Hmm...

Quote:
EDIT: I will leave you with this though. What is the primary cause of most so called accidents? It's actually quite simple. It's two objects trying to occupy the same space at the same time. A gap, by definition, means this isn't happening. There's no logical, physical or common sense way that a gap could cause an accident.


Yes, but it was pretty clear I wasn't talking about eliminating any gap at all (cause that would require literally tapping your bumper into the car in front of you, which is silly). I was talking about leaving a gap larger than that which the sensor will allow before tripping. And, as I stated above, that gap is calculated based on the normal speed of the traffic lanes and the correct safe distance cars should be maintaining while driving at that speed.

I was talking about leaving a gap between where you are and where you should be to maintain that distance and ensure that the loop senses a car traveling over it every X seconds so as to prevent it from changing the light. Trust me, this is not an unsafe distance.

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Elinda wrote:
The correct driving gap according to every driving manual I've ever seen. One car length for every 10mph speed.


Whatever the correct distance is for the speed in question is what's calculated in the timer on the sensor (plus a bit of leeway actually). So if it's a 40 MPH road, they'll calculate the time it takes to travel say 5 car lengths, and the sensor will trigger a light change if it doesn't pick up a car crossing the loop within that period of time. It's how sensor triggered lights work. Knowing this can help traffic flow better (and not **** off the person behind you who is unnecessarily stuck at a light).

[quote]Driving considerably slower than traffic can be a problem, but I don't see where too much gap can be a problem.



Except, again, that the traffic lights use the timing of cars crossing the loop to determine if there are still cars driving in a line through the intersection. So if you fail to stay close enough to the car in front of you to keep the sensor activating, the light will change.

Imagine there are 10 cars driving in a line towards a light that is configured for a 2 second delay between cars. The light turns green. Each car is maintaining say 1.5 seconds of distance between them and the car in front of them. All 10 cars will make it through the light. Heck. If there are 20 cars, they'll all make it through the light. But if the driver of car number 5 decides to drive such that there's 2.5 seconds distance between him and the car in front of him, the light will switch to yellow .5 seconds before he enters the intersection (technically before he hits the loop which is right in front of the intersection). He'll make it through (cause the yellow is on a 3 second timer), but the guy behind him probably wont, and the 3 other people who otherwise would have made it through the light will end out having to stop.


I'm not saying drive like a maniac, but if you look down the road in front of you and pay attention to what's going on, you can plan ahead. You can notice that a light has turned green and the traffic has started to move. You can realize that if you maintain your current speed, you will not catch up to the end of that line before too large a gap is created and you'll cause the light to cycle. You can then speed up a small amount *now* to close that future gap, then reduce speed to match the line of cars and cleanly pass through the intersection without tripping the light.

It's not hard to do, but does require both understanding how the light sensors work *and* having the forethought to adjust your speed ahead of time so as to time your entry into the intersection properly. The same concept applies to triggered left hand turns btw. If you are approaching an intersection and want to turn left at a protected turn lane, and you realize that the light is going to change "soon", and no one is currently sitting in that lane, it's a good idea to speed up to get on the sensor before the light changes. Otherwise, you'll have to sit through a full cycle until that light's "turn" comes around again. People who don't realize this will maintain speed and pull in too late to have their light triggered when the cross traffic light cycles out. And they end out spending more time at traffic lights.


Knowledge is power. Yadda, yadda.
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#41 Aug 18 2014 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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end up.

Generally car detection is on the stopped end to determine if there is a need to change the light, not on the moving cars. What are you basing this off of, speculation?
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#42 Aug 18 2014 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Kastigir wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
I was pretty sure the cameras were being used on this intersection. I never saw them install anything under the concrete or tear up anything. The road is pretty smooth other than one corner where they widened it for semis to turn. Even right after they installed the new lights I never saw anything in the concrete below.

Those cameras are most likely being used for left turn arrow indication. Around here it's what they're used for. If there is nobody in the left turn lane, open green for both sides.


Yes, I think that is actually the only automation added to this particular intersection. I take it every day going home. Today while stopped I looked around for any indication of inductive loops in the concrete or under the asphalt and didn't see any. Was trying my damnedest to spot any imperfections in the concrete.

They added the left hand turn lanes a while back because people kept dying trying to turn left as oncoming traffic would still run through the light when it turned red, and left turning traffic would ignore oncoming traffic and turn as soon as it turned yellow.


Elinda wrote:
The correct driving gap according to every driving manual I've ever seen. One car length for every 10mph speed.


Yes. But I've always felt this rule of thumb was a bit far for the low speeds and a bit close for the higher speeds.

But then again, the entire rule of thumb falls apart once you start traveling on crowded freeway. I doubt you could ever really keep a 7-8 car length gap driving around any crowded freeway during rush hour.


CoalHeart wrote:
I will leave you with this though. What is the primary cause of most so called accidents? It's actually quite simple. It's two objects trying to occupy the same space at the same time. A gap, by definition, means this isn't happening. There's no logical, physical or common sense way that a gap could cause an accident.


I'd say that the "two objects trying to occupy the same space at the same time." is the result of the accident, or the result of what caused the accident (In other words, it's the accident itself). Instead the cause of the most accidents being people not being aware of, or paying attention to, their surroundings while driving, distracted driving, for any number of reasons.

Ignoring those caused by driving while impaired, which I don't know about where ever you live, but here is a HUGE problem, and the justice system does little to help it. It's very common for people around here to be driving around still (illegally of course, but still freely driving) while on their 4th DUI, some even higher. Yet they are still roaming the streets free.





Edited, Aug 18th 2014 6:27pm by TirithRR
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#43 Aug 18 2014 at 4:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
CoalHeart wrote:
Wrong. So wrong in fact that I don't even know where to start, so I won't.Your opinions are nothing more than trying to defend your poor driving habits. I was going to mention that I drive OTR for a living. That I have a Class A CDL, that I've also had extensive training, both educational theory ( including state-of-the-art simulators) and real world training on closed courses ( with skid plates even) learning everything from hydroplaning passenger cars to jackknife recovery in big rigs. ( 18 wheelers).
You've taken all this training and have never learned how traffic light sensor loops work? Hmm...
Maybe is free-spending California. As others have noted there are a variety of sensor types.

Most of the intersections here (particularily in turn lanes) use pressure plates.


Yes, I said pressure plates. Presumably because they are comparitavely inexpensive to replace.

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#44 Aug 18 2014 at 6:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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You've taken all this training and have never learned how traffic light sensor loops work? Hmm...


Yeah, really odd that driver training tends to focus on safety and not on trying to game red lights.

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#45 Aug 18 2014 at 7:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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The gaming of red lights isn't really the case anyway.

There are some intersections that behave somewhat as gbaji describes, although it's not quite correct.

1) The extend the green light idea applies to minor streets crossing larger streets. The idea is that the smaller street will generally have a shorter light, but in the event there is an unusually large number of people it will extend the light by a small amount. Certainly not infinite, and the context is backed up traffic, not fast moving traffic on a main street.

2) Most intersections wouldn't have this, and will just use sensors to trigger the aforementioned minor street, or to trigger a turning light.

3) there are fully automated intersections that monitor continuously, and certainly there could be a case where both streets are monitored and could be extended either way, but it would be rare and not worth closing a gap to do.

I should mention that in SF at least, (so maybe SD as well?) the traffic systems monitor the buses and will extend a green light to let a bus through. This is for high traffic areas of course and uses a completely different system involving communication devices on the buses as opposed to sensors.

TLDR: Don't speed up to fill a gap before a light, it's both dangerous and will most likely accomplish nothing.


Edited, Aug 18th 2014 9:30pm by Xsarus
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#46 Aug 18 2014 at 8:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, I said pressure plates. Presumably because they are comparitavely inexpensive to replace.
Why do you think they are using pressure plates?
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#47 Aug 18 2014 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
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Yes, I said pressure plates. Presumably because they are comparitavely inexpensive to replace.
Why do you think they are using pressure plates?
Because I asked.


ALSO: The giant off-coloUr rectangles in the road are kind of a giveaway.


Protip: Rapid City and the immediate environs host a whole 120K people at most, so we don't need that fancy stuff.
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#48 Aug 18 2014 at 9:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: thumbsup
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#49 Aug 18 2014 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
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Friar Bijou wrote:

Protip: Rapid City and the immediate environs host a whole 120K people at most, so we don't need that fancy stuff.


I live in a town of 7,000...
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#50 Aug 18 2014 at 11:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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For what it's worth even after the cost of the pavement cutting and materials, induction loops are wayyy less expensive to install than the cost of maintaining and or replacing a pressure plate.
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#51 Aug 19 2014 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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Rotaries and/or traffic circles. Everyone goes. No one stops. No light. No sound.

Nothing under the ground to maintain.
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