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Not a thread about this one: Common Core (no?)Follow

#27 Sep 06 2014 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
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Every time I see a thing getting shared that demonstrates how "hard" Common Core is, I read through the word problem and determine that it's more or less how I've been doing math in my head since I can recall.

You don't always have a pen and paper handy if you want to figure out what 657-293 is on the fly. But if you know that you can add -7 to the -293 to make it a nice round -300, then subtract 657-300 to get 357, then just add the 7 back again to get 364, you get a nice fast solution to the problem without having to write it down. That's the skill Common Core is trying to teach.

They just don't do a very good job explaining to teachers how to explain it to kids (or parents.) Smiley: rolleyes


I figured this out in like middle school. It really simplifies things.


That method was taught to us in 3rd and 4th grade in my first Elementary school. They started with examples of adding any number to 99. Just add 100, then subtract 1. Then expanded on to other numbers. Rounding up/down to something easy, then just subtracted or adding what you added or subtracted. It's just a simple application of algebra. A+B = A+X+B-X. It just wasn't explained using algebra until reaching middle school around 7th grade.
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#28 Sep 06 2014 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
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What makes you think you can possibly judge?

I never understood why non-educators think that their children are getting a better education at home than school because they don't like the school's curricula. Even if the school was only teaching 75% of the necessary material, I would only have to teach 25% of the material and I would still have time to work and do other adult things.
Here's a link to one of those pretty pictures with lots of numbers on it; note the potentially bias source, of course Smiley: rolleyes.

A general consensus amongst homeschooling parents is that it only takes about an hour of homeschooling to teach what a kid would normally learn in 6 hours of school, quality (along the lines of individual attention) over quantity kind of thing. Now whether or not the kids would actually be better at school (given that having parents involved in their education enough to consider homeschooling likely means they'd do well anyways) is a good question, and I think one a lot of parents will at least wonder about from time to time.

It's not necessarily an all or nothing thing of course, as many homeschooling parents (ourselves included) will supplement with a private tutoring service or something similar. Giving the kids a couple of hours a week with one-on-one attention from a certified teacher. Often times the parent is not even the one teaching the subject matter (a common misconception methinks), they're out in the world: museums, historical landmarks, science centers, etc. learning from people and exhibits there.

Edited, Sep 6th 2014 10:14am by someproteinguy
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#29 Sep 06 2014 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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Home school seems to vary pretty wildly. For all the success stories I've heard, I've known a dozen others who have failed miserably, or continue to do so. From an outside perspective, it seems easy for both a student and their parents to completely neglect the "school" portion of staying at home. It also seems fairly difficult for homeschoolers to find ways to interact with their peers and learn to socialize outside of the internet, especially when their parents won't let them leave the house.
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#30 Sep 06 2014 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
It's not those kind of home schoolers that concern me, though. It's the religious ones that never let their kids have socialization with anyone else, and who don't give them the broadening experiences where they can learn outside of a traditional curriculum.

I did fine in public school, but I had supportive parents who were able to pick me up and drop me off from activities.
#31 Sep 06 2014 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
A general consensus amongst homeschooling parents is that it only takes about an hour of homeschooling to teach what a kid would normally learn in 6 hours of school

That is some prime cut bull shiz there.

The efficacy of homeschooling is greatly under-researched, and what little information that is available is marred by intellectually dishonest comparisons from overzealous home-school organizations.

The message from groups like HLSDA and NHERI is a disingenuous one that does both the cause and individual families a disservice. Home-schooling is pushed as a panacea for educational woes rather than a viable alternative that might excel at meeting specific needs. I've donated over 200 hours of private tutoring to help bring kids fudged over by home-schooling back up to public school grade level, and I'm tired of seeing well intentioned parents tricked. Home-schooling does have something to offer, but the research is not there to support definitive conclusions, and the organizations pushing it are composed of charlatans seeking to validate their own choices with those of others.
#32 Sep 06 2014 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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The efficacy of homeschooling is greatly under-researched


Nah, there is plenty of research. It works amazingly poorly with a few exceptions. Parents who are former teachers or have a background in childhood education, legitimately gifted children, that sort of thing. For average kids, it generally turns out good spellers who fail catastrophically at the university level. Maybe his kids are gifted or he used to be a teacher, I don't really know much about it. If not, he's probably damaging them for life out of some sort of self righteous hubris, which is pretty much the opposite of good parenting.

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#33 Sep 06 2014 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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Disagree, but it's a subjective line. Maybe I'm entirely ignorant of a collection of studies targeting the exact points I think are lacking. Much of the research is based on voluntary rather than representative samples, garnering wealthier, whitier surveyees. There's a lack of data on the numbers and demographics of homeschoolers. There's almost no research done on issues that aren't directly educationally related such as abuse/neglect of children.

A quick gogole seems to show at least some support for the idea. I was able to find data from the NCES which gave a pretty decent overview of homeschool demographics, so I guess that hurts my point, but I'd like to see more.
#34 Sep 06 2014 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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It probably also depends on the quality of the schools available.
#35 Sep 06 2014 at 4:39 PM Rating: Default
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Tirith wrote:

The main reason I've seen is religion. It's not so much that they can teach better, but that they can choose to exclude certain things that they don't agree with.
That's what I've noticed, but I'm a firm believer that a subject doesn't make you smart, it's what you know. In this case, what you don't know makes you not smart. Whether or not you believe in evolution should not be a discriminator on if you should be taught it.

SPG wrote:
A general consensus amongst homeschooling parents is that it only takes about an hour of homeschooling to teach what a kid would normally learn in 6 hours of school, quality (along the lines of individual attention) over quantity kind of thing.
I would accept that home school would be better at time management, but not a 6 to 1 ratio. I don't think that's even possible or realistic.

SPG wrote:
It's not necessarily an all or nothing thing of course, as many homeschooling parents (ourselves included) will supplement with a private tutoring service or something similar. Giving the kids a couple of hours a week with one-on-one attention from a certified teacher. Often times the parent is not even the one teaching the subject matter (a common misconception methinks), they're out in the world: museums, historical landmarks, science centers, etc. learning from people and exhibits there.
Which I've noticed home school programs emulating and or including public/private school activities like organized gatherings, sporting events, dances, etc. The biggest benefit of home schooling vs private schooling is not having to pay as much money, so there's no way that I would hire a private tutor as a subject matter expert instructor vs an "additional help from someone else who might explain it better".

#36 Sep 06 2014 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
SPG wrote:
A general consensus amongst homeschooling parents is that it only takes about an hour of homeschooling to teach what a kid would normally learn in 6 hours of school, quality (along the lines of individual attention) over quantity kind of thing.
I would accept that home school would be better at time management, but not a 6 to 1 ratio. I don't think that's even possible or realistic.
TBH I'm skeptical of it as well, it's just one of those numbers you'll hear homeschooling parents repeat a lot. Even then though, I'm not sure how you really track it, or how they came up with it. I have a real hard time drying a clear line between learning time and non-learning time, as lessons tend to pop up randomly throughout the day. Oldest asks something like "why is milk a liquid?" and all of a sudden you're doing a science experiment with freezing water or something. Or you happen across a police officer while out and about and they get an impromptu civics lesson.
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#37 Sep 06 2014 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kuwoobie wrote:
Home school seems to vary pretty wildly. For all the success stories I've heard, I've known a dozen others who have failed miserably, or continue to do so. From an outside perspective, it seems easy for both a student and their parents to completely neglect the "school" portion of staying at home. It also seems fairly difficult for homeschoolers to find ways to interact with their peers and learn to socialize outside of the internet, especially when their parents won't let them leave the house.
Yeah there's certainly ways to fail at it. I've known people too who were "homeschooled" but I'm not sure they ever really learned anything. More like they were such a problem in school or skipped classes too much so their parents "homeschooled" them to keep them from having to repeat a grade or go to summer school or something. In the end it didn't really help the situation. I'm not sure I'd call that homeschooling though, even though the parents may insist that's what they're doing. It kind of defeats the whole idea in my mind. Homeschooling being more about getting the kids out and having them interacting and learning in society and such than hiding at home and watching tv or something.

Edited, Sep 6th 2014 4:30pm by someproteinguy
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#38 Sep 06 2014 at 6:45 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
SPG wrote:
A general consensus amongst homeschooling parents is that it only takes about an hour of homeschooling to teach what a kid would normally learn in 6 hours of school, quality (along the lines of individual attention) over quantity kind of thing.
I would accept that home school would be better at time management, but not a 6 to 1 ratio. I don't think that's even possible or realistic.
TBH I'm skeptical of it as well, it's just one of those numbers you'll hear homeschooling parents repeat a lot. Even then though, I'm not sure how you really track it, or how they came up with it. I have a real hard time drying a clear line between learning time and non-learning time, as lessons tend to pop up randomly throughout the day. Oldest asks something like "why is milk a liquid?" and all of a sudden you're doing a science experiment with freezing water or something. Or you happen across a police officer while out and about and they get an impromptu civics lesson.


Now that you mention it, I think one of my co-workers said the same thing. I'm just thinking about the middle school grades when you have 6 distinct classes with 6 knowledgeable instructors doing hour lectures. There is no way you could efficiently cram that much information into one hour even if each instructor only taught for 30 minutes.
#39 Sep 07 2014 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
...lessons tend to pop up randomly throughout the day. Oldest asks something like "why is milk a liquid?" and all of a sudden you're doing a science experiment with freezing water or something. Or you happen across a police officer while out and about and they get an impromptu civics lesson.

I'd not consider that 'schooling'. I'd put it more in the parenting category.

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#40 Sep 08 2014 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Oldest asks something like "why is milk a liquid?"
Gas would make it harder to transfer nutrients, while solid and plasma would probably kill the adult?
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#41 Sep 08 2014 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
...lessons tend to pop up randomly throughout the day. Oldest asks something like "why is milk a liquid?" and all of a sudden you're doing a science experiment with freezing water or something. Or you happen across a police officer while out and about and they get an impromptu civics lesson.

I'd not consider that 'schooling'. I'd put it more in the parenting category.
Works for me, like I said I'm not so good with the drawing lines thing.
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#42 Sep 08 2014 at 10:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Oldest asks something like "why is milk a liquid?"
Gas would make it harder to transfer nutrients, while solid and plasma would probably kill the adult?


Well, there's powdered milk, so it's a decent starting point for a conversation about states. Plasma milk sounds awesome.


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#43 Sep 08 2014 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Elinda wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
...lessons tend to pop up randomly throughout the day. Oldest asks something like "why is milk a liquid?" and all of a sudden you're doing a science experiment with freezing water or something. Or you happen across a police officer while out and about and they get an impromptu civics lesson.

I'd not consider that 'schooling'. I'd put it more in the parenting category.
Works for me, like I said I'm not so good with the drawing lines thing.

I don't think there is a line to be drawn. Tots just suck up info all the time. A kid learns about people, group interaction, leadership, physical and mental abilities, etc. by joining in the neighborhood game of kick-the-can.

The lack of a line likely makes the whole standardization of learning pretty difficult.

Education as a social mandate to ensure all citizens are able to function and even flourish in our society requires some sort of standardization though.

Home schooling is as varied as various homes.

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#44 Sep 08 2014 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Plasma milk sounds awesome.


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#45 Sep 08 2014 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
I don't think there is a line to be drawn.
For sure, the line was simply for assessing the accuracy of the 6:1 ratio number people like to throw around. Gray, fuzzy, squiggled, dashed and loopy lines don't make for good equations. Smiley: frown
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#46 Sep 08 2014 at 10:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Well, there's powdered milk, so it's a decent starting point for a conversation about states.
I like that, and I think we even have some too as a bonus. She understood the whole "it's mostly water" part of it and we worked from there. Also got the "why does water reflect light?" thing handled.

Next up is "why do cows have 4 legs?" Or is this the point where the homeschooling parent is supposed to say "because Jesus said so" and avoid the question?
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#47 Sep 08 2014 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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See, this is where I would do a bad job. I'd probably start in on biological symmetry and what not, with a nod to fractals, and end up with "they just do, kid."
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#48 Sep 08 2014 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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If I did home schooling there would be at least an hour of gun safety and marksmanship thrown in there.

I mean, there most likely will be in the future, but not for a grade or anything ...
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#49 Sep 08 2014 at 11:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Next up is "why do cows have 4 legs?" Or is this the point where the homeschooling parent is supposed to say "because Jesus said so" and avoid the question?

Well, even if you were a strict creationist, you could mention the benefits for the cow (standing all day, grazes so its head is lower, etc) and then All Glory to God for designing a cow so well.

I'd personally turn it around slightly and mention that almost all mammals are primarily four legged, with even apes and monkeys using their hands when traveling. Our bipedal design requires a bit of reworking of the spine and hips (and big butt muscles) so why are humans so unique? Because God, obviously
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#50 Sep 08 2014 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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#51 Sep 08 2014 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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