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#27 Nov 14 2014 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Like this, perhaps.

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“This is a pretty robust finding,” wrote psychiatrist Paul Fletcher of the University of Cambridge, who studies psychosis but was not involved in the study. “It appears that, when confronted by lack of sensory patterns in our environment, we have a natural tendency to superimpose our own patterns.”


Or maybe these:
http://science.time.com/2013/11/19/remember-that-no-you-dont-study-shows-false-memories-afflict-us-all/
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-24286258
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/26/science/false-memory-planted-in-a-mouse-brain-study-shows.html?_r=0

Seems to be many articles about the general idea.
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#28 Nov 14 2014 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Psychologists stuck 19 healthy volunteers into a sensory-deprivation room, completely devoid of light and sound, for 15 minutes.
Sounds like there could be some amusement value there. Why stop at 19? And why not occasionally stick another person in the room just for fun?

Must be part of the follow-up studies.
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#29 Nov 14 2014 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Samira wrote:
Like this, perhaps.

Quote:
“This is a pretty robust finding,” wrote psychiatrist Paul Fletcher of the University of Cambridge, who studies psychosis but was not involved in the study. “It appears that, when confronted by lack of sensory patterns in our environment, we have a natural tendency to superimpose our own patterns.”


Or maybe these:
http://science.time.com/2013/11/19/remember-that-no-you-dont-study-shows-false-memories-afflict-us-all/
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-24286258
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/26/science/false-memory-planted-in-a-mouse-brain-study-shows.html?_r=0

Seems to be many articles about the general idea.


None of those articles explain how a person can recall specific details of what was happening around them during the period they were "dead." It's incredibly easy to chalk it up to hallucinations or illusions when the person is experiencing something else. I am kind of annoyed at how we will always and immediately shut out certain details to rationalize a fast answer that is convenient to what we already know, instead of saying "I don't know" when they realize there is something going on that they can't explain.

It's like whenever something strange happens, say a pilot sees a giant glowing orb blazing across the sky in the middle of the night traveling faster and maneuvering in a way that nothing should be able to-- the two typical reactions are either A.) "Omergerd space aliens!" or B.) "That was nothing at all. Just my imagination playing tricks on me" when both of these answers are equally ******* stupid. Then there's the rational thinker who wasn't there but hears the story who will say "Oh, it's safe to say that was a weather balloon."

I'm not saying we should just assume I am right about how these people are able to remember things whilst "dead." But plugging in convenient explanations or pretending it was nothing at all eliminates the possibility that we might someday have a real answer.

Edited, Nov 15th 2014 2:28am by Kuwoobie
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#30 Nov 14 2014 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kuwoobie wrote:
I'm not saying we should just assume I am right about how these people are able to remember things whilst "dead." But plugging in convenient explanations or pretending it was nothing at all eliminates the possibility that we might someday have a real answer.
If you want a "real answer" you need a testable hypothesis. I'm all well in good with accepting there are unexplained things in the universe, but until someone has a theory about what something is, and a way to determine whether or not that theory is correct, there's not much more you can do but go "Hmmm, that's interesting."
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#31 Nov 14 2014 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Kuwoobie wrote:
I'm not saying we should just assume I am right about how these people are able to remember things whilst "dead." But plugging in convenient explanations or pretending it was nothing at all eliminates the possibility that we might someday have a real answer.
If you want a "real answer" you need a testable hypothesis. I'm all well in good with accepting there are unexplained things in the universe, but until someone has a theory about what something is, and a way to determine whether or not that theory is correct, there's not much more you can do but go "Hmmm, that's interesting."


As long as it doesn't stop at "Oh, it was just nothing." That is what kills me. There is nothing more poisonous.

I do not present my ideas as facts, because I have no way of proving them. I do, however, know of a few ways the premise of the study from the articles could be further explored and tested. There are a few other problems with these though. Namely, none of them involve being actually dead. This could mean that any results gleaned from them are not relevant to the original study due to the circumstances being too different.

Another problem is the legitimacy of their sources, which are mired in spiritual and religious themes and terminology. This alone is enough to turn off even the most curious-minded person. While they present their practices in a way that dubious and cult-like, I have reason to believe many of their results can be replicated and explained in a way that doesn't sound as much like desperate zealous sophistry. I do believe they have a hold of something important, and that they are currently the forefront of this field-- though it probably is not exactly what they think it is.

I think the biggest obstacle here is overcoming people's tendencies for seeing things in a superstitious or spiritual light. This isn't a problem just for religious types-- more so, it is a much worse problem for rational, scientifically minded people, because if something sounds like it could, or should be "impossible" by whoever's standards,subconsciously assuming we know everything about physics, chemistry and how the universe works, then it will be immediately dismissed, ridiculed and buried back into the deepest recesses of their minds for very much the same reason I mentioned in my previous reply regarding airborne lights. At least, if not, they will not pursue the idea out of fear of being dismissed, ridiculed and buried by their peers.

The way I see it, it doesn't hurt to try.
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#32 Nov 14 2014 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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If you've ever taken LSD or something similar... er.. or have sat through a really boring movie you would find that our perceptions of time is kind of elastic.... (Or I could argue that time is also elastic.. but I digress)
So whatever happen in the brain when that last drop of personal consciousness is slipping out if you.. and the last ions of your thoughts get sucked back into the cosmic zero-point... Time would no longer have any logical meaning.
Based on my mental experiences it is not far fetched that a 20 second experience could be perceived as much much longer...

Once I put on a nicotine patch and fell asleep with an episode of Voyager in the background.. I had a dream that was so lucid and so real and vivid.. and it actually seemed to last 3 days... (on was with the Voyager crew on an alien city that quite resembled Baltimore except the people had 3 fingers).. I wandered that city.. got lost..got mugged.. jammed with some aliens in a bar.. talked about religions.. made some friends.. and at the end of the day had to find my way back to the "barracks".. My mind had created entire city blocks and an entire culture of people that I was interacting with. It was pretty cool until the Borg cubes appeared in orbit.

For the record I believe that the universe as we know it is holographic..filled out by light and interactive fields.. and what we call the soul and spirit is just on a different level of existential consistency than our physical bodies.. all inextricably linked through space and time and yet operating at various levels of perceivable 'reality'.
Smiley: twocents

Edited, Nov 14th 2014 8:33pm by Kelvyquayo
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#33 Nov 14 2014 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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Kuwoobie wrote:
but I seriously doubt I'd find anything in regards to how much memory hates emptiness and loves being filled with astonishingly accurate accounts of what happened while their brain was not working.

I thought the section on eyewitness testimony was mandatory in psychology books today.

Also both of your eyes have blind spots constantly being filled in with fake data from your brain.
#34 Nov 15 2014 at 12:45 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
If you've ever taken LSD or something similar... er.. or have sat through a really boring movie you would find that our perceptions of time is kind of elastic.... (Or I could argue that time is also elastic.. but I digress)
So whatever happen in the brain when that last drop of personal consciousness is slipping out if you.. and the last ions of your thoughts get sucked back into the cosmic zero-point... Time would no longer have any logical meaning.
Based on my mental experiences it is not far fetched that a 20 second experience could be perceived as much much longer...

Once I put on a nicotine patch and fell asleep with an episode of Voyager in the background.. I had a dream that was so lucid and so real and vivid.. and it actually seemed to last 3 days... (on was with the Voyager crew on an alien city that quite resembled Baltimore except the people had 3 fingers).. I wandered that city.. got lost..got mugged.. jammed with some aliens in a bar.. talked about religions.. made some friends.. and at the end of the day had to find my way back to the "barracks".. My mind had created entire city blocks and an entire culture of people that I was interacting with. It was pretty cool until the Borg cubes appeared in orbit.

For the record I believe that the universe as we know it is holographic..filled out by light and interactive fields.. and what we call the soul and spirit is just on a different level of existential consistency than our physical bodies.. all inextricably linked through space and time and yet operating at various levels of perceivable 'reality'.
Smiley: twocents

Edited, Nov 14th 2014 8:33pm by Kelvyquayo


A lot of people share similar ideas to yours-- about the physical reality we see being false in some way. It always seems to draw back to Plato's "The Republic." I kind of think that deep down, every person knows what is really happening, but we are all sort of hyper-distracted.

Even if true OBE (which is basically traveling away from your body and visiting places in real time) turns out to be impossible, even if we are not in any way connected to anything outside our own head, there are still nearly limitless implications for lucid dreaming itself. It's almost like the Construct from The Matrix-- that big white room where they can run simulations for anything they want. One of the most interesting aspects of lucid dreaming I have read about is when people travel to and from different "frequencies" whereas delving "deeper" feels denser and darker, or vice versa. The other most interesting thing is the random entities people encounter-- which can be anything at all. People using certain psychedelic drugs all seem to experience something they call "machine elves." Under normal circumstances you tend to find people you know, or people you've never seen or met before. A lot of times I have heard of something they call "negs" which are essentially forum trolls in dream format. They can't actually hurt you, but they will try to make you believe they can-- or they will weird/gross you out or scare you for not apparent reason. These are supposedly rare, but I also think that everything you encounter while lucid dreaming is a reflection of yourself in a way.

I feel that psychedelic drugs are a sloppy and reckless way of entering alternate states of consciousness, even the so called "safe" ones. I've never tried them, personally, and I don't ever intend to. I have had a bit of success with audio assistance though. There are downloadable audio files, usually in .mp3 format, which are essentially rhythmic beats similar to what the Inuit people do with drums to the same effect. The first time I tried it I had to stop about halfway through when I began to experience the sensation that my body had become paralyzed (which is normal and expected). Now that I'm here writing about it all again I feel like I might be interested in investing some time back into that territory again. I just need to stop making excuses and find the time to do it.
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#35 Nov 18 2014 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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kuwoobie wrote:
I feel that psychedelic drugs are a sloppy and reckless way of entering alternate states of consciousness, even the so called "safe" ones. I've never tried them, personally, and I don't ever intend to. I have had a bit of success with audio assistance though. There are downloadable audio files, usually in .mp3 format, which are essentially rhythmic beats similar to what the Inuit people do with drums to the same effect



Yeah.. the drug reference was a failed attempt to be funny on my part.. in comparing LSD to a boring movie..yeah. meh.
With what you (and other 'seekers') are trying to accomplish here, I would say that the main drawback of using drugs is that it would seem to illicit a dependency on something that is material... although perhaps the same could be said for other stimuli such as audio tapes.. although I'd rather meditate to music than acid (these days).
LSD is particularly dangerous because of how fickle the elements are. In things such as psilosibin the results are quite predictable from the drugs standpoint but (as in all cases) the mind of the individual plays a large part of the reaction.. and minds can be quite unpredictable.


kuwoobie wrote:

The first time I tried it I had to stop about halfway through when I began to experience the sensation that my body had become paralyzed (which is normal and expected). Now that I'm here writing about it all again I feel like I might be interested in investing some time back into that territory again. I just need to stop making excuses and find the time to do it.


A pertinent question here is what you are planning to achieve with all of this? What exactly is the goal and how are you going about it?
I have been stricken by sleep-paralysis since childhood.. and perhaps this is why back when I was about 12 I happened upon a TIME LIFE book about Out Of Body experiences which even had step by step instructions on how to do this... which I promptly practiced at nightly..
Years later I did enter into practices that I labeled 'shamanic' and indeed experienced entities which I felt were external to my psyche and in which I felt that an actual exchange of information was achieved.. at least on my end. This was seen as possible due to the perception that there really is no internet/external as we understand it.
This is seen as possible because of the notion of a hub of all of time/space that exists at the lowest level of particle physics.. (as I understand it). At a certain level time and space are meaningless and therefore IF we have any kind of link with that we are able to somehow reach.... something...

kuwoobie wrote:
The other most interesting thing is the random entities people encounter-- which can be anything at all. People using certain psychedelic drugs all seem to experience something they call "machine elves." Under normal circumstances you tend to find people you know, or people you've never seen or met before. A lot of times I have heard of something they call "negs" which are essentially forum trolls in dream format. They can't actually hurt you, but they will try to make you believe they can-- or they will weird/gross you out or scare you for not apparent reason.


Do keep in mind that anything can hurt you that you allow yourself to experience. Even if these random entities are self-created.. if we actually allow ourselves to believe that there is some hidden locked truth within these subconscious avatars (or I call them demons) and if we give these things undue credibility then it can lead down many roads of destruction.
The truth is that there is no way to know what we are doing and what we are actually in control of in the "Aether" because if this thing exists and things are actually interconnected then there certainly would be entities out there with far greater power than the a flesh-dwelling human. We really are operating in the dark in that regard..

Plato's Cave is apropos as well as that ancient and popular notion that despite all that we can do to steer the chariot.. that we ultimately have no control over the nature of the horses that are drawing it.. In that case what can we do? In Plato's case he admitted that he was ultimately powerless to swim in that Aether regardless of how much we think that we can understand about it..
The fact is that we still are limited by our nature and any determination that we make about these things is always going to be flawed beyond question.
IF there truly interconnectedness between all things then this would make all of this the most dangerous practice that a spiritual seeker to make.. in my view and in my experience. Surely there is something out there... and if it does not try to resemble something from Lovecraft and even if it is just the darkness of our human nature.. or it may be our distance from the Light of Creation.. Either way we have no way of really knowing anything.
Until we can admit that.. we are children.
and until we apply that fact to our spiritual development we are fools.


kuwoobie wrote:
I kind of think that deep down, every person knows what is really happening, but we are all sort of hyper-distracted.


The question is what is it that we are distracted from? If it is 'things of the spirit' that is to say.. matter of the eternal soul.. or our personal link to the 'divine' then the hyper-distractedness would be caused by our very nature of living in the universe that we live in which I have always views as a sort of coagulation of the spiritual world.. that is to say that true world..(outside the cave).
This doesn't mean that the physical world is separate than the meta-physical world at all but merely an extension of it therefore our physical bodies are not merely a husk but an actual extension of our essential spirit.
This fact is where the problem lay. This state of existence is the chain that keeps us from the truth. Then the question lays of how to be free of that fleshly nature and to truly 'walk in the spirit'.

Another question is of the ramifications of such things. What is the purpose of all of this? If we agree that there is a state of being from which it is necessary to be set free from.. then how did this state of being come to pass to begin with?
If many people would say that this is a self-inflicted limitation then this would assume that we have the ability to free ourselves. Clearly we cannot free ourselves because people have tried for thousands and thousands of years.
Also if we conclude that there is a purpose then there must be a conscious force that had to have that purpose. If we conclude that we have awareness and that there may be other levels of awareness that are non-local to the universe and beyond Newtonian physics then this implies a higher consciousness and a higher purpose.. and it also means that this Highest of all consciousnesses and prime mover that has a purpose would be the only thing truly in control of anything.
All of this leaves us completely at its mercy. I conclude that we were put here in this state to know this.. to understand it.. and to want to be free from it.. but that our need to want to do this in our own power only means clinging onto the very chains that bind us. It can only be from mercy that we are set free from this.. as well as a willingness to let go of the chain.. then we understand we have been willingly holding onto the chain all along.. but because it is our very will that is deceived it does require external intervention. It is the only way.
I'm tempted to put a metaphor about Frodo having to give up The Ring.. but I think this wall of text is sufficient enough Smiley: grin
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#36 Nov 18 2014 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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"You" are nothing more than a collection of memories being processed through your own proprietary software along side various live data inputs in a unique organic computer that is similar to other members of your species.

The concept of a "soul" or consciousness that is not directly created by your brain is a fairy tail created by people as a control mechanism for other people who feel they must be more important than the chair they are sitting on.

There is no OBE, there is no "spirit" there is no consciousness without a working brain. How much of the brain has to work in order for consciousness to be maintained is however another question.

As for the hologram thing, that's twisted science. There is a theory that everything is a hologram and all "information" is actually 2D descriptions of 3D particles/matter/energy/stuff. That doesn't mean consciousness is projected into a body or that anything is really projected at all, it just doesn't work that way.

None of this means we're not complex beings with lots of power/control/emotions etc, it just means we're not nearly as important as we think we are and there is no special invisible indestructible "thing" that will live on to protect our snowflake like uniqueness when we die.
#37 Nov 18 2014 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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#38 Nov 18 2014 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Yodabunny wrote:
"You" are nothing more than a collection of memories being processed through your own proprietary software along side various live data inputs in a unique organic computer that is similar to other members of your species.

The concept of a "soul" or consciousness that is not directly created by your brain is a fairy tail created by people as a control mechanism for other people who feel they must be more important than the chair they are sitting on.


If we are talking about software then the software exists independent to the hardware.. even if one cannot function properly without the other.
You can take apart a computer from end to end and not be able to tell much about the data that is on it without some other external form of information. The state of matter of the software is so different than the hardware that it is impossible to observe the software using the same standard of measurements that we use for the hardware.
More so, if the nature of that software is that which transcends standard space and time (which we know happens<debatable-yes>) then locality becomes irrelevant.. hence whether or not you have any link to anything outside of your gray-matter becomes immaterial when we are considering the very mechanics of that interconnectedness and our place in it.

Also in your view: is the hardware writing its own software?
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#39 Nov 18 2014 at 5:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

— Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7. Activity recorded M.Y. 2302.22467. (TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED)
Smiley: nod

Edited, Nov 18th 2014 3:44pm by someproteinguy
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#40 Nov 18 2014 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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No, I just gave a bad analogy. Your brain is more like an analog system but it can change, the hardware IS the software.
#41 Nov 19 2014 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Well it always depends on what the actual target of our analogy is.. Is it the mechanisms in place that cause the result or is it the quantification of the result itself? After all, actual software.. and binary language was created by entirely analog processes of human thought.

If we are trying to comprehend the possibility of some higher/deeper form of reasoning then we must look at the elements of those processes..
The elements of those processes are sub-atomic interactions.
We must then consider the possibility that those sub-atomic interactions posit an effect beyond that of the standard observable effect in our everyday lives (eg consciousness, memory, emotion).
Whether or not these things are brought into being from the physical brain.. or even if it is the case that both the mind and the brain are both brought into being by something else.. It still stands to reason that there is a high probability that consciousness can transcend popular concepts of space and time.
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#42 Nov 19 2014 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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As long as it doesn't stop at "Oh, it was just nothing."

It was just nothing. Stop being an idiot.

Death is the end. That's it. There is nothing after. The very concept that there might be requires the special megalomaniac terror of the human mind. You, I, Jesus, Buddah, Hitler, Stalin, all fucking meaningless blips of consciousness. All ended or will be when our bodies stop physically functioning. This research is about as a valuable as an episode of Teletubbies.

Edited, Nov 19th 2014 10:03am by Smasharoo
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#43 Nov 19 2014 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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#44 Nov 19 2014 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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This research is about as a valuable as an episode of Teletubbies.


Again! Again!

/shudder
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#45 Nov 19 2014 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Death is the end. That's it. There is nothing after. The very concept that there might be requires the special megalomaniac terror of the human mind. You, I, Jesus, Buddah, Hitler, Stalin, all ******* meaningless blips of consciousness. All ended or will be when our bodies stop physically functioning. This research is about as a valuable as an episode of Teletubbies.


If I bump into you in the afterlife I hope you'll at least have the decency to look sheepish.

Of course, you wouldn't get in if you didn't.
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#46 Nov 19 2014 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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#47 Nov 19 2014 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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I'm saying, though.. can anyone rationally watch Teletubbies and then tell me there is no Satan?
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#48 Nov 19 2014 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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I'd say yes, but I've never mastered the art of the Po faced lie.
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#49 Nov 19 2014 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
As long as it doesn't stop at "Oh, it was just nothing."

It was just nothing. Stop being an idiot.

Death is the end. That's it. There is nothing after. The very concept that there might be requires the special megalomaniac terror of the human mind. You, I, Jesus, Buddah, Hitler, Stalin, all fucking meaningless blips of consciousness. All ended or will be when our bodies stop physically functioning. This research is about as a valuable as an episode of Teletubbies.

Edited, Nov 19th 2014 10:03am by Smasharoo


That's... kind of aside my point though. While the articles are all screaming about life after death, my point is it doesn't have to be what this means. What I'm saying is, there could be thousands of reasons why these people are able to remember things that were happening around them while they were technically dead-- all of which are infinitely more interesting and realistic than the idea that they actually went to some afterlife. I'm saying we don't *have* to jump to that conclusion.

What most people will do is assume it was "Oh my god they went to heaven GOD IS REAL" or "Oh it was nothing at all." Why can't there be a Door #3?
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#50 Nov 19 2014 at 12:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Door #3 is probably something along the lines of, we continue to receive neurological input without the usual filters that help us make sense of it.

I'm just guessing, though.
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#51 Nov 19 2014 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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What most people will do is assume it was "Oh my god they went to heaven GOD IS REAL" or "Oh it was nothing at all." Why can't there be a Door #3?

Because the three doors are actually: "This is caused by a well understood mundane neurological process", "this is mysticism", "this is something else."

Is rain the result of: "A well known physical effect", "Angel's tears", "this is something else"

That's the problem. The only reason this studied at all any more is that we are forced to play pretend that we don't know *exactly the fuck what is happening* so as not to offend idiots.

Not a concern I share.
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