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#52 Dec 19 2014 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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Today though, an hourly coworker of mine was complaining about what they were doing to all the hourly production employees.

None of the hourly production workers are working on Monday, Tuesday, or Friday around the New Year at the factory my office is in. They can take vacation or unpaid (unpunished) time off. But, they have to specifically request unpaid personal time off or else they will get an occurrence for not showing up to work. Now, if they get an occurrence for a "No Show" before or after a company assigned paid holiday... they forfeit their holiday pay. Rather than just setting it as a non work day and automatically forgiving anyone that doesn't have a vacation day.

HR/Accounting says it's because our other factory is still running a limited production schedule. (Now, that means they will have 3 people running one critical machine that can't stop for the whole week). All the hourly people feel they are doing it so they can catch the people not paying attention and void holiday pay. None of the floor supervisors took it upon themselves to go around with the forms that needed to be submitted to apply for the time off. In the end a few of the higher, Merit production positions took it upon themselves to go around with the forms and let the operators know.

Now that... definitely seems like a **** move to me.

Edited, Dec 19th 2014 9:39pm by TirithRR
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#53 Dec 19 2014 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
My understanding is that salaried pay is based on the assumption of approximately 40 hours worked per week. You actually have an hourly pay rate, but it's just assumed that you always work 40 hours for paperwork purposes. Obviously, if your employer is regularly demanding that you work significantly more hours than that, and you don't feel you are being compensated sufficiently, there are a few avenues you can pursue.

The point being that if you choose not to come in to work on a day that is a normal workday for you, you can be docked pay.


Hahahaha, holy ****, no. Is that really what you thought?

Work 150 hours this week, paid for 40. Work 32 hours this week, paid for 32?

My god, you are ignorant.


Um... Every employer who employes salaried employees has some kind of contract that dictates terms for the employment. This almost always includes some kind of penalties for employees who don't show up for work during time periods when they are expected to be working. This is why you have to do things like fill out time cards even though you are on salary. You have to take sick days when you are sick. And you have to take vacation days if you just decide you don't feel like coming in to work.

And yes, that contract most definitely can include things like docked pay. Now, most of the time, when you are on salary, unless you **** off your manager or something, there's an assumed leeway in your work hours. That's kinda the whole point of salary, as you mentioned earlier, but it's not as absolute as "your pay isn't dependent on how much you work". It's not hourly, but your employer still usually expects you to show up for about 40 hours of work a week. But it doesn't have to be exactly that many hours on any given week.


The point being that if your employer tells you "you must show up for work on Tuesday, or take a vacation day, or get your pay docked", he's choosing to invoke the part of the contract where he "may" dock your pay for not showing up. And the reason why they tend to make a point of this during the holidays is because if they don't, people will just not show up for the whole week even though only 1 or 2 days are actual holiday days, which is unfair to those who are actually playing by the rules and spending vacation time to take the extra "slow days" off.

Most of the time, they don't care about this. I can tell my boss "Hey, I came in and worked all day Saturday, so I'm going to stay home Monday", and he'll be perfectly fine with that. Or even "It's really slow right now, I'm going to head home early today", and he'll be fine with it because he knows that when it's really busy, I'll stay at work extra hours to deal with whatever is going on. But people abuse the slow times around the holidays, so employers have to put their feet down so that the rules are fair for everyone. Again though, this is something they could do any time they want to.

If the assumption for your employment is that you work Monday through Friday, 8 hours each day, that's what you are expected to work, and other than holidays or vacation or sick days, you can suffer penalties for not doing so. Note, I say "can", not "will always". Again, the fact that employers are more lenient at some times than others doesn't mean that this is some evil unfair thing they're doing.
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#54 Dec 19 2014 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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An employer can force (well, not in the free will sense) a salaried worker to work over 40 hours a week as much as they want. There's no recourse beyond quitting that the employee has as far as I'm aware.

And on the same note, a salaried worker can work constantly less than 40 hours a week, and the employer cannot dock his/her pay for it, but they can fire him/her for doing so. Docking his or her pay on a weekly basis based on quantity of work preformed is a violation of the law.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/overtime/fs17g_salary.pdf

Edited, Dec 19th 2014 9:58pm by TirithRR
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#55 Dec 19 2014 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Today though, an hourly coworker of mine was complaining about what they were doing to all the hourly production employees.

None of the hourly production workers are working on Monday, Tuesday, or Friday around the New Year at the factory my office is in. They can take vacation or unpaid (unpunished) time off. But, they have to specifically request unpaid personal time off or else they will get an occurrence for not showing up to work. Now, if they get an occurrence for a "No Show" before or after a company assigned paid holiday... they forfeit their holiday pay. Rather than just setting it as a non work day and automatically forgiving anyone that doesn't have a vacation day.

HR/Accounting says it's because our other factory is still running a limited production schedule. (Now, that means they will have 3 people running one critical machine that can't stop for the whole week). All the hourly people feel they are doing it so they can catch the people not paying attention and void holiday pay. None of the floor supervisors took it upon themselves to go around with the forms that needed to be submitted to apply for the time off. In the end a few of the higher, Merit production positions took it upon themselves to go around with the forms and let the operators know.

Now that... definitely seems like a **** move to me.


Yeah, that is kinda ******** However, a lot of times, these kinds of things have their basis in an attempt by the company to prevent abuses by employees. So if they had problems in the past with employees just not showing up for work the day after or before a holiday, they implemented a requirement for employees to have to request the days off ahead of time. That requirement is presumably in place even if it's a non-penalty day off because they need to know who's showing up and who isn't. It's still not paid time off, right?

So I get the rule. Not making sure to remind people about it is a bit obnoxious, but again, the employees should already know this. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that it's normal to have to request unpaid days off normally, right? I mean, it's been a long time since I've been hourly, but I do recall that if I wanted specific days off (ie: unpaid days), I had to request them ahead of time. But yeah, it is still kinda mean not to remind people. You know that some are going to forget.
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#56 Dec 19 2014 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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Ya, it's not the "No pay for the Holiday if you don't work or have an excused absence the day before and after" that is the issue here. That has been the rule since day one, and everyone accepts that.

The issue is they are not allowing them to work on the days before and after the paid holidays, but are penalizing them by default if they don't work. All because they say that those three operators are working in a factory 5 miles away. When it remains that the factory in question, no production employees are allowed to come into work those days.

The usual default is that the day before and after a paid holiday is a scheduled work day. This plant production shutdown before and after the holiday is a rare thing. Operators would not know this information already.

Edited, Dec 19th 2014 10:11pm by TirithRR
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#57 Dec 19 2014 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
An employer can force (well, not in the free will sense) a salaried worker to work over 40 hours a week as much as they want. There's no recourse beyond quitting that the employee has as far as I'm aware.

And on the same note, a salaried worker can work constantly less than 40 hours a week, and the employer cannot dock his/her pay for it, but they can fire him/her for doing so. Docking his or her pay on a weekly basis based on quantity of work preformed is a violation of the law.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/overtime/fs17g_salary.pdf



Um...

Quote:
Circumstances in Which the Employer May Make Deductions from Pay
Deductions from pay are permissible when an exempt employee: is absent from work for one or more full days
for personal reasons other than sickness or disability; ...


Do you people just not bother to read your own sources? It's only two freaking pages!

We were specifically talking about not showing up for a full day in which your employer expected/required you to show up.

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#58 Dec 19 2014 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
We were specifically talking about not showing up for a full day in which your employer expected/required you to show up.


We've already moved on from the original discussion of the employer requiring an unpaid day off.

But we are now talking about your interpretations of the salaried position.

Edit:
I specifically kept it to hours on a reason. Because if you come in for 1 hour on a day, that counts.

I guess I should say "I've" moved on from the original unpaid day off. As soon as I read the FAQs posted in the first handful of posts.

Edited, Dec 19th 2014 10:24pm by TirithRR
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#59 Dec 19 2014 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Ya, it's not the "No pay for the Holiday if you don't work or have an excused absence the day before and after" that is the issue here. That has been the rule since day one, and everyone accepts that.

The issue is they are not allowing them to work on the days before and after the paid holidays, but are penalizing them by default if they don't work. All because they say that those three operators are working in a factory 5 miles away. When it remains that the factory in question, no production employees are allowed to come into work those days.

The usual default is that the day before and after a paid holiday is a scheduled work day. This plant production shutdown before and after the holiday is a rare thing. Operators would not know this information already.


Wait. I'm confused then. Are you saying that they are not allowed to work those days, period? So if they show up, they'll get turned away and told to go home or something? I've never worked in a factory setting, so I don't now how this works, but that seems like something that should be handled by just declaring it to be a non-work day and moving on.

What does that have to do with another factory running with 3 workers? Is it that they're shutting the factory down for those days for some reason, and would normally declare them to be non-work days while doing that, but because some employees will be working, they have to use some other convoluted process? I'm smelling crappy union work rules here (it's a non-work day for everyone or no-one?). Maybe complain to them?

I'm sticking with my original thought though, that much of the time things that appear to be **** moves by management are the result of a set of rules imposed on them that they have no choice but to comply with. That doesn't preclude the whole "let's not remind folks that they need to request the day off so as to void their overtime" bit, but the basic rules were screwed up prior to that.


And wait a minute!? If they can't work the day before or the day after because of the plant shutdown, how is anyone working on the holiday itself? What holiday pay is being voided here?
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#60 Dec 19 2014 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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We are a non union factory. So unions have nothing to do with this. The Owner/CEO of the company says that the workers are more than welcome to Unionize, but he'll just close the doors and walk away.

We are one company. We have four factories. Two here locally, ran by the same management. One down south, and one in Mexico.

The production employees cannot work before or after the holiday, because there is no production scheduled. If they showed up, they'd be sent home.

This wouldn't be an issue, if they would just automatically forgive the "No Shows" of people not showing up for work those days. But they (I should say, one person, our HR/Accounting handler) refuses to do this because of the small number of people who do have to come in as a regular work day for this other factory.

So rather than just pay a little attention to the small number of workers (really, about 3 last I knew) and making it easier on every other worker, they are just defaulting everyone to "It's a work day, but not really haha!"
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#61 Dec 19 2014 at 9:44 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
gbaji wrote:
We were specifically talking about not showing up for a full day in which your employer expected/required you to show up.


We've already moved on from the original discussion of the employer requiring an unpaid day off.

But we are now talking about your interpretations of the salaried position.

Edit:
I specifically kept it to hours on a reason. Because if you come in for 1 hour on a day, that counts.

I guess I should say "I've" moved on from the original unpaid day off. As soon as I read the FAQs posted in the first handful of posts.


Oh. Sorry then. I was speaking in the context of the original topic. Obviously, as I've said multiple times, the actual hours you work each day (or total per week) is flexible. I guess the confusion set in because there were two different issues: "can you have your pay docked for a day if you don't work that day", and "are salaried employees expected to work a given amount of time". The answer to both is "yes", but the process for dealing with them are different.

I think the confusion started because Smash mentioned an employer forcing you to take "mandated unpaid time off", and I said that this was no different than weekends and the 16 hours a day on weekdays that you don't work and aren't paid for. This prompted a couple responses from people who I think thought I was saying that you get paid for how many hours you work when on salary, and the whole thing spiraled out of control from there. It's funny because I read those responses and didn't understand what they were saying because I knew what I was talking about (pointing out the absurdity of "mandated unpaid time off" for salaried employees) and couldn't figure out how they got to calculating time off based on salary (I honestly still don't get what that was about). I attempted to steer it back into the point about missing days, and not about hours worked, but then Smash jumped in and conflated the two points into one and made some bizarre assumption (incorrect) about what I was saying.

I have consistently talked of docked salary only in the context of not showing up for days you are expected to work. I have *never* said that salaried employees pay varies based on hours worked. Ever. That was Smash claiming that's what I was saying. You can just ignore him when he does that. I usually do.


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#62 Dec 19 2014 at 9:47 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, Smash does acknowledge in his first post that it is legal to have Salaried employees take unpaid time off.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=4&mid=1418851151267557745&p=1#5
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#63 Dec 19 2014 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
We are a non union factory. So unions have nothing to do with this. The Owner/CEO of the company says that the workers are more than welcome to Unionize, but he'll just close the doors and walk away.

We are one company. We have four factories. Two here locally, ran by the same management. One down south, and one in Mexico.

The production employees cannot work before or after the holiday, because there is no production scheduled. If they showed up, they'd be sent home.

This wouldn't be an issue, if they would just automatically forgive the "No Shows" of people not showing up for work those days. But they (I should say, one person, our HR/Accounting handler) refuses to do this because of the small number of people who do have to come in as a regular work day for this other factory.

So rather than just pay a little attention to the small number of workers (really, about 3 last I knew) and making it easier on every other worker, they are just defaulting everyone to "It's a work day, but not really haha!"


I'd be willing to bet that there is some labor regulation or requirement that has to do with factories and workforces and shut downs and whatnot, and if they have any employees working at the plant (or one considered to be attached to it. Do workers work at both plants, or exclusively at one?) that they can't legally declare it to be a non-work day, which in turn necessitates the other requirements. If this were really a cause of mustache-twirling villainy, why not do this "work day, but you can request it off" every year? There are probably actual legal requirements for declaring non-work days like this. You've got hourly workers who wont get paid for those hours. If you were allowed to do this selectively (these 3 guys get to work, but no one else), I could think of a lot of ways that could be abused to get around labor laws.


But yeah, agreed on the whole "should have informed people better".
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#64 Dec 19 2014 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Yes, Smash does acknowledge in his first post that it is legal to have Salaried employees take unpaid time off.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=4&mid=1418851151267557745&p=1#5


Yup. But that didn't stop him claiming I said something I didn't say later in the thread and replying with an absurd version of that assumption. It's what he does. Go back and read the entire exchange carefully and you'll see that at no point did I say that employers could adjust the pay for their salaried workers based on actual hours worked. In fact, I said several times that exact hours worked in any given week or month could vary.

My whole point about expected hours of work was just that it's the standard, on paper, calculation given for pay rates. While the exact terms for a salaried employee can vary (which I also mentioned), most of the time there is an assumed number of hours and days and yes, even a schedule that the employee is expected to keep. What Smash missed (deliberately or not) was that I never said that the penalty for not working enough hours (or getting sufficient work completed) was docked pay. He just chose to pretend that I did and then jumped on me for saying it. Which is pretty standard posting style for him.


And yes, while you wont get your pay docked for just showing up for one hour every day, you probably wont keep your job long that way. Technically, Smash is correct in that salary work is based on work done and not hours worked (if that makes sense), more and more these days, that structure has become the contract employee, and not the salary employee. Salary employees at most businesses have scheduled work times that they are expected to be present and working. It's rare to just be paid X dollars a year in return for doing some job and it's entirely up to you how you do it. Again, that's more in the arena of contract work, not salary work.
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#65 Dec 19 2014 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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Yup. But that didn't stop him claiming I said something I didn't say later in the thread and replying with an absurd version of that assumption. It's what he does. Go back and read the entire exchange carefully and you'll see that at no point did I say that employers could adjust the pay for their salaried workers based on actual hours worked. In fact, I said several times that exact hours worked in any given week or month could vary.

My whole point about expected hours of work was just that it's the standard, on paper, calculation given for pay rates. While the exact terms for a salaried employee can vary (which I also mentioned), most of the time there is an assumed number of hours and days and yes, even a schedule that the employee is expected to keep. What Smash missed (deliberately or not) was that I never said that the penalty for not working enough hours (or getting sufficient work completed) was docked pay. He just chose to pretend that I did and then jumped on me for saying it. Which is pretty standard posting style for him.


And yes, while you wont get your pay docked for just showing up for one hour every day, you probably wont keep your job long that way. Technically, Smash is correct in that salary work is based on work done and not hours worked (if that makes sense), more and more these days, that structure has become the contract employee, and not the salary employee. Salary employees at most businesses have scheduled work times that they are expected to be present and working. It's rare to just be paid X dollars a year in return for doing some job and it's entirely up to you how you do it. Again, that's more in the arena of contract work, not salary work.


"I was completely wrong and know virtually nothing about labor law" is a lot more concise and accurate.
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#66 Dec 19 2014 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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It's rare to just be paid X dollars a year in return for doing some job and it's entirely up to you how you do it. Again, that's more in the arena of contract work, not salary work.

Really? Everyone I know who has risen above the level of "Supervisor of Janitors" basically works that way. What the **** is the point of a contract with a yearly salary otherwise? Does your contract sate an hourly rate? How strange. I guess you're just a sucker who doesn't get paid overtime.
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#67 Dec 19 2014 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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Um... Every employer who employes salaried employees has some kind of contract that dictates terms for the employment. This almost always includes some kind of penalties for employees who don't show up for work during time periods when they are expected to be working. This is why you have to do things like fill out time cards even though you are on salary.

Who does that? I've never even heard of someone on salary doing anything but exception reporting for time entry. For billing, sure. I've had to break out work by cost center for accounting purposes before, but not for what I get paid, just who pays it. You fill out a time card? It's like you work at a gas station or something.
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#68 Dec 19 2014 at 10:51 PM Rating: Good
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I don't punch a clock or record hours, electronically or otherwise. They have no record of me actually being at work or not being at work other than what people see (either seeing me personally, or my work being completed).

Edited, Dec 19th 2014 11:52pm by TirithRR
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#69 Dec 19 2014 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
It's rare to just be paid X dollars a year in return for doing some job and it's entirely up to you how you do it. Again, that's more in the arena of contract work, not salary work.

Really? Everyone I know who has risen above the level of "Supervisor of Janitors" basically works that way. What the **** is the point of a contract with a yearly salary otherwise? Does your contract sate an hourly rate? How strange. I guess you're just a sucker who doesn't get paid overtime.


And again you obsess over hourly rates. It's not about hourly rates. Stop talking about hourly rates. You're excluding a huge middle between "paid by the hour" and "have no work schedule at all".

Most salaried employees are expected to work specific time periods, usually on a schedule. They are not paid by the hour, but they're expected to be at work during normal business hours, if for no other reason than that's when all the other people they are working with are there. It's rare to be salaried and have complete freedom to work whatever hours you want, show up when you want, etc. The kind of work where all that matters is that you get some project done in X amount of time is not the norm for salary work. That's usually a contract job, which is a whole different animal.


The advantage of salary is that you are not constrained to a specific hourly structure managed by someone else. When you are an hourly worker you are required (by law) to clock in, and clock out, and track your time on breaks, and on lunch, etc and your manager tells you when to do this. When you are on salary, you can set your own schedule for the day. If I want to take lunch at 2PM, I'm free to do so. No one cares or notices when I walk out the door to get some food. But they do tend to expect somewhere around 40 hours of work time from me. And they expect that I complete whatever projects I've been assigned in a reasonable time frame. Again, the point is flexibility. The employer assumes that the employee is responsible enough to manage their own time. But if they can't, they can get canned. Not showing up for work, or working very few hours, or not being at your desk ever, tends to show that you aren't responsible enough to be paid a salary versus an hourly wage.


Salary pay is not hourly work without overtime. At least it should not be (yes, I'm sure there are workplaces that abuse the salary rules to ***** people over). But the other extreme isn't true either. It's not "I get paid no matter what I do". It's somewhere in between. It's funny how selectively you choose to view the world in pure black and white.
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#70 Dec 19 2014 at 10:57 PM Rating: Good
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Wow, I guess I lucked out with my job. Being an on-call field tech in this area, I often have several days per week with no work coming in, but I still get paid.
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#71 Dec 19 2014 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
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Salary pay is not hourly work without overtime.

That's exactly what it is, actually. What do you think the "exempt" part means?
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#72 Dec 19 2014 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
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The advantage of salary

For the employee? There is no advantage.

If I want to take lunch at 2PM, I'm free to do so. No one cares or notices when I walk out the door to get some food. But they do tend to expect somewhere around 40 hours of work time from me. And they expect that I complete whatever projects I've been assigned in a reasonable time frame. Again, the point is flexibility. The employer assumes that the employee is responsible enough to manage their own time. But if they can't, they can get canned. Not showing up for work, or working very few hours, or not being at your desk ever, tends to show that you aren't responsible enough to be paid a salary versus an hourly wage.

Holy shit, who sold you that? It's always advantageous for employers to pay a set salaried rate to employees so they can avoid paying overtime. It's not a sign of trust in the employee or maturity or anything of the sort. Employers would pay ditch diggers salary if they legally could.




Edited, Dec 20th 2014 12:04am by Smasharoo
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#73 Dec 19 2014 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
I don't punch a clock or record hours, electronically or otherwise. They have no record of me actually being at work or not being at work other than what people see (either seeing me personally, or my work being completed).


Exactly. But if your coworkers never saw you at work, and you were never at your desk, and your boss could never get you on the phone, and you were otherwise not doing whatever work they hired you to do, what do you suppose would happen? According to Smash, you could just say "I'm salaried and don't have to show up if I don't want! Wait until the end of the year and I'll show you what I did.".

One guess how well that will go over.


Again, there are some jobs that are long term project based and can work the way Smash is saying. But the overwhelming majority of salaried positions require that you come into work every work day, sit at your desk, and work. The work may vary more than hourly work will. It will tend to involve more meetings and planning and paperwork and less repetitive labor, but you still usually have to show up, usually between some range of hours, and usually for some number of hours.
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King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#74 Dec 19 2014 at 11:07 PM Rating: Good
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Again, there are some jobs that are long term project based and can work the way Smash is saying. But the overwhelming majority of salaried positions require that you come into work every work day, sit at your desk, and work. The work may vary more than hourly work will. It will tend to involve more meetings and planning and paperwork and less repetitive labor, but you still usually have to show up, usually between some range of hours, and usually for some number of hours.

Again with this? There is no prestige attached to being paid a salary instead of an hourly wage. It's not a responsibility issue, it's just a way to avoid paying overtime. If it was legal to pay you hourly, and just stop paying you after 40 hours, this is how your work contract would be *instantly*.
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#75 Dec 19 2014 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Salary pay is not hourly work without overtime.

That's exactly what it is, actually. What do you think the "exempt" part means?


Exempt from punching a timeclock and only getting paid for the hours you work. Exempt from your employer only scheduling you for 30 hours so as to not have to provide you with full time benefits. Exempt from being fired because you showed up to work 5 minutes late three times. And yeah, your employer is exempted from the requirement to pay you overtime. It's overwhelmingly a good deal for the employee.

You do get that in the real world most people strive to obtain a salaried position, right? I suppose we can imagine that they are all foolish sheep being taken advantage of, or we can imagine that you are being obstinate. I'm going with the latter.
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King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#76 Dec 19 2014 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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Exactly. But if your coworkers never saw you at work, and you were never at your desk, and your boss could never get you on the phone, and you were otherwise not doing whatever work they hired you to do, what do you suppose would happen? According to Smash, you could just say "I'm salaried and don't have to show up if I don't want! Wait until the end of the year and I'll show you what I did.".

One guess how well that will go over.


Well, for me, I'd get paid and have to refuse more work at a higher rate because I was bored. I assume that if your boss couldn't babysit you they'd fire you? Maybe? Is that the implication? I admit I don't know what it's like to be clinging to the one good job I've ever had relying on my manager liking me for my income. Sounds awful.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

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