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#4202 Oct 02 2017 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Goddammitsomuch.
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#4203 Oct 02 2017 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Goddammitsomuch.

YES I MEANT TO SAY IT TWICE. WHAT ARE YOU LOOKIN' AT?

Edited, Oct 2nd 2017 1:22pm by Samira
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#4204 Oct 02 2017 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Saw him at Wrigley Field this past summer and it was a great show. Rained off and on for most of the show and no one cared -- just an amazing vibe to go with 40 years of fantastic music. Whenever he'd come up in conversation between Flea and I, I would always refer to him as "American Troubadour, Tom Petty".
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#4205 Oct 02 2017 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Damn. Fifty dead, over four hundred injured during an active shooting in Vegas. Open carry state, painfully white guy, at a crowd of painfully white people.


Well, the good guy with a gun was able to stop him, right?
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#4206 Oct 02 2017 at 4:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Damn. Fifty dead, over four hundred injured during an active shooting in Vegas. Open carry state, painfully white guy, at a crowd of painfully white people.


Well, the good guy with a gun was able to stop him, right?


Someone actually tweeted that armed people in the audience would have been able to return fire. Someone else pointed out the lovely image of a thousand concert goers opening fire on the Mandelay Hotel.

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#4207 Oct 02 2017 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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You're doing a **** of a job, Brownie.



Edited, Oct 2nd 2017 3:48pm by Samira
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#4208 Oct 02 2017 at 4:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Damn. Fifty dead, over four hundred injured during an active shooting in Vegas. Open carry state, painfully white guy, at a crowd of painfully white people.


Well, the good guy with a gun was able to stop him, right?


Someone actually tweeted that armed people in the audience would have been able to return fire. Someone else pointed out the lovely image of a thousand concert goers opening fire on the Mandelay Hotel.



And then all the other occupants of the hotel returning fire to what appears to be an insurrection...
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#4209 Oct 02 2017 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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yep

Edited, Oct 3rd 2017 12:00am by Kuwoobie
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#4210 Oct 02 2017 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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False flag. It's all staged by the government so that there will be public outcry over guns so that we can enact tighter restrictions and outright ban guns continue doing absolutely nothing.
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#4211 Oct 02 2017 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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False flag. It's all staged by the government so that there will be public outcry over guns so that we can enact tighter restrictions and outright ban guns continue doing absolutely nothing.

Agreed, we should definitely enforce background checks and outlaw both murder and the illegal modification of weapons to fire in automatic mode.
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Mr. Sullivan confirmed that Mr. Paddock had bought three guns at his shop — a handgun and two rifles — within the last year. All the purchases were legal and cleared routine federal screening, Mr. Sullivan said.

“The man does not have a criminal history,” Mr. Sullivan said of Mr. Paddock.


I like the idea of banning all guns, too. That way, only the agents of executive power will have them, and everyone trusts and respects the current holder of executive office.

Edit: Had to disable Java to prevent those awful video ads, so none of the formatting buttons work.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2017 7:20pm by Demea
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#4212 Oct 02 2017 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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Someone doesn't know what false flag conspiracy is and equated my post to "ban all guns."
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#4213 Oct 03 2017 at 7:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Guess I'll be listening to Tom Petty's anthology album all day. Smiley: frown
Timelordwho wrote:
Samira wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Damn. Fifty dead, over four hundred injured during an active shooting in Vegas. Open carry state, painfully white guy, at a crowd of painfully white people.
Well, the good guy with a gun was able to stop him, right?
Someone actually tweeted that armed people in the audience would have been able to return fire. Someone else pointed out the lovely image of a thousand concert goers opening fire on the Mandelay Hotel.
And then all the other occupants of the hotel returning fire to what appears to be an insurrection...
Great, now I'm the ass for wanting to see that.
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#4214 Oct 03 2017 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Some folks were talking about bag searches at the hotels as a way to prevent this sort of thing. While not an unreasonable suggestion, I'm not sure how well that would work, given the nature and design of Vegas casinos. They're not like most hotels with a single lobby, registration desk, and a bank of elevators going up to the rooms. You could easily control and check bags in that environment. Vegas casinos have multiple entrances and exits, have tons of people coming and going who are not checked in guests (it's a casino, you want foot traffic coming in), and there are multiple access points to the rooms, from the front desk areas, multiple locations on the casino floors, and usually direct parking structure access as well.

I suppose it's doable, but it would be a massive cost, and would likely require re-designing the floor plans of most casino/hotels to be remotely manageable.

It's interesting in that this is the rare (only!?) case of a mass "spree" style shooting in the US where the shooter actually did have fully automatic weapons. Despite most coverage of such shootings doing everything they can to suggest, infer, or even outright "forget" to put the word semi- in front of the word "automatic", which has created false impressions in the past, this one actually fits that narrative. It'll be interesting to see if there's a bit of "boy who cried wolf" rebound because of that though.

Also not surprising all the call to do "something", without any clear indication of what "something" could have prevented this. Guy's a worst case lone gunman scenario. No criminal background. No history of mental illness. No noticeable political or religious affiliations which might raise red flags. Nothing. I'm not sure there is anything, short of eliminating the 2nd amendment, that could prevent this. As long as any sort of semi-automatic rifle is legal to own, it can be illegally modified to full auto fire and used in this way. He passed the background checks, so there's nothing there. You can't make what he did more illegal.

But I doubt that'll prevent people from tying.
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#4216 Oct 03 2017 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh look, more fuel to the fire.

And then the left collectively wonders why people in the middle effectively say nope. **** it. Bring on the silencers.

Seriously, sometimes it seems like Ds are their worst enemies.
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#4217 Oct 04 2017 at 3:31 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I suppose it's doable, but it would be a massive cost, and would likely require re-designing the floor plans of most casino/hotels to be remotely manageable.
Can't just limit that to hotels. Once hotels put that type of security in place, shooters will just move to another venue, like an office tower. So we'll need to add the security to all office towers as well. After that, we should move to apartment/condo buildings since that'll be next once hotels and office buildings are closed off.

And now the communists have won as you've turned into a complete police state.
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#4218 Oct 04 2017 at 7:08 AM Rating: Good
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If only hotel security was better all those kids at Sandy Hook would be with us today.
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#4219 Oct 04 2017 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
And then the left collectively wonders why people in the middle effectively say nope. **** it. Bring on the silencers.

The nine people who watch GQ must be horrified.

Although I agree he was being unfair. The NRA may be a lobby organization that directly profits from terrorism on multiple angles: sales of guns to terrorists, sales of guns to people afraid of terrorists, sales of guns to people afraid that someone will take their guns following terror attacks, etc and an organization that fights hard to keep guns as accessible as possible for anyone who might want one, but they're not a "terrorist organization", per se. Terrorists take human lives for the sake of ideology, the NRA just facilitates it for the sake of profit.
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#4220 Oct 04 2017 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hotel security has nothing to do with it as it stands right now, because it was perfectly legal for him to bring an ******* up to his hotel room.

Hey, I dunno, maybe that's a problem?
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#4221 Oct 04 2017 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Hotel security has nothing to do with it as it stands right now, because it was perfectly legal for him to bring an ******* up to his hotel room.

Hey, I dunno, maybe that's a problem?


But even if it weren't legal, he could still do it. Because how would you stop him? Search him when he checks in, but then search his possessions every time he enters the hotel? And once checked in, you usually have access to other non-front door entrances.

(Did the filter catch arsenal?)
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#4222 Oct 04 2017 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
the filter is a Spurs fan.

Edited, Oct 4th 2017 10:50am by Xsarus
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#4224 Oct 04 2017 at 6:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Someone might want to let him know that the Surpreme Court has consistently ruled that, yes, "keep and bear" does indeed mean "own".
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#4225 Oct 04 2017 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
But even if it weren't legal, he could still do it. Because how would you stop him? Search him when he checks in, but then search his possessions every time he enters the hotel? And once checked in, you usually have access to other non-front door entrances.


Yeah. That was kinda my point about Vegas casinos (well, hotels in general, but casinos are even trickier). My experience may be different than that of folks who fly in, but we usually drive to Vegas, which means we've parked in the garage, which it attached directly to the casino. You walk into the lobby and check in, go up to your room with whatever you have in your hands, and then you go back to the car and gather the rest of your bags. Much easier than trying to navigate through the lobby/casino area with a truck load of luggage, doubly so since there's usually shorter direct access from/to the garage to the rooms.

That's just the parking garage. You also have multiple casinos attached via enclosed walkways (I know for a fact that Luxor, Excalibur, and NY NY are all attached via walkways, and maybe Mandalay Bay as well, but I can't remember if it's owned by the same company). These walkways go directly from the elevator, gift shop, buffet, casino floor portions of one hotel to the next, to the next, etc, allowing folks to zip around between them without every having to go outside in the Nevada heat. That's in addition to elevated skywalks directly connecting higher levels of the hotels to each other to cross Las Vegas Avenue itself, with escalators/stairs allowing for street access, and often direct access to the hotels again (at yet another entry point). Then there's the plain old street level casino entrances, which are designed to make it as easy/inviting as possible to get passers by to walk in and spend some money. Oh. And then there's the tramways that connect the hotels on the north/west side of the strip along the backside of the entire row (I think it goes all the way from Ceasar's Palace to Mandalay bay, last time I checked).

That's a lot of access points. You *could* put security checkpoints on those, but now you're basically slowing down entrance for *everyone*, including folks going to shows, restaurants, shops, and the casino floors themselves. It's basically the opposite of what these casinos are designed for.

You could put the security on the elevator access to the rooms, and avoid inconveniencing people coming in from other points, but the reason people pay $250/night to stay in the casino hotel instead of $50/night to stay at a motel 2-3 blocks off the strip is precisely because of the convenience of being able to go from/to your room and the casino quickly and easily. Going through security each time would be a pain, and act as a reason to *not* actually stay in the hotels. Not sure how big a deal that would be, but I imagine it wouldn't go over with guests, all to more or less stop an incredibly rare form of attack. And that's before getting to the point that this is Vegas, and they deal with wealthy VIPs all the time, who have "odd" privacy requirements, private planes, own parts of countries, their own armed security, etc, and are for whom the hotels will bend the rules for anyway. Not sure how wealthy this guy really was, but given that he was clearly not planning to survive, it wouldn't have been hard for him to drop 50-100k on the hotel, play the "high roller" role, get the room he wanted, bypass the security for the "regular customers", etc. This is Vegas after all. We are looking at a pretty huge outlier in terms of these sorts of threats. I'm not sure how valuable making massive adjustments to security to cover just this one thing will really be.

And yeah, that before Ugly's point that they'll just pick an office building somewhere instead. At the end of the day, any elevated position could be used for this sort of thing. Heck. With the kind of money he dropped on this, he could have rented an office suite just as easily as a hotel suite. Just needed to pick an open air venue with an office building nearby. Same deal.


I think the bigger point, and something that I think folks on all sides can probably agree on, is the legality of the bump stocks he was using. Yesterday, I was under the impression that he had illegally modified the guns themselves, but it's looking now like he didn't. He used what is essentially a stock overlay with a spring and a trigger bar. So instead of firing the gun directly, he just held down the trigger on the stock, which caused the bar to pull into position, so that each time the gun fired, the recoil caused the stock spring to compress, then bounce back automatically pressing the trigger again. I'd heard of such things before, but had never really looked into them.

I doubt it would be too hard to make these sort of things illegal, as long as they can avoid putting poison pills into the legislation and focus purely on correctly worded legal language (like say: Any external device designed to be attached to a firearm to allow the firearm trigger to be automatically pulled without requiring manual operation by the user). This would not inhibit normal firearm use, but would prevent any sort of spring loaded, or machine operated automatic device from being used to pull the trigger faster than a human could normally do so.

What you have to do is go after the after market devices themselves. Unfortunately, in the past, the focus has been almost exclusively about trying to regulate the gun manufacturers. I even (sadly) read today some politicians talking about legislation to somehow require gun manufacturers to prevent this. I'm pretty sure that's the wrong approach. Any design change you could make to the gun itself to make this more difficult could almost certainly be trivially circumvented by a third party vendor making some form of bump device. At the end of the day, it's a spring on the back of the stock, connected to some form of trigger arm, which actually pulls the trigger once for each shot. The gun isn't technically fully automatic, since it's still "one pull, one shot". You're just attaching something to the gun that allows the trigger to be pulled very quickly, and as fast as the recoil will allow (which can be very fast).

Heck. It might only require some changes to ATF regulations to put these in the illegal category. Not sure. In any case, I think this would be a good change to make, that doesn't infringe the 2nd amendment, and could at least close the loophole this one guy used (and likely others will attempt to use in the future given the media coverage about it). I doubt there would be much resistance to it, as long as the proposed changes are clean.
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#4226 Oct 04 2017 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh. I'll take this duplicate post to say that I'm reasonably certain that anyone suggesting that if only folks in the crowd had been armed they could have returned fire, was an anti-gun troll.

Edited, Oct 4th 2017 6:24pm by gbaji
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