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#4802 Mar 01 2018 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Did we already talk about 45 talking gun grab and dealing with due process later? This news cycle is so insane, remarks like that become tertiary story. It is oddly impressive.
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#4803 Mar 01 2018 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Even if that's only 1% of the total faculty members, it's still sufficient to act as a deterrent.
The potential of an armed good guy was pretty high at that church in Texas, too. Didn't seem to deter that shooting in Lincoln County, Mississippi either. Or the one at the Walmart in Colorado ... huh, it's like there are real life incidents where the potential of armed resistance doesn't actually have any real life affect at all.

Really, any shooting that happens somewhere that might have had an armed "good guy" pretty much proves that potential ninja snipers aren't a deterrent.
Allegory wrote:
Most of the licensed gun owners I know treat their weapons like toys and don't maintain them, so I doubt they'll make fees there.
Worry not! You can rest assured knowing that the 89 year old English teacher that might be packing that luger spends every night making sure their weapon is safe to fire and they're adequate at consistently hitting their targets between grading papers.

Because, you know, they just are.

Edited, Mar 1st 2018 10:37am by lolgaxe
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#4804 Mar 01 2018 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Cost us nothing.
Still can't wrap my head around this part. There's no way this doesn't get caught up in miles of red tape and political drama.


Only because the same anti-gun folks will do everything they can to make it so.
Well yeah, but that doesn't make those imaginary dollars. You still have to pay to jump through the hoops, whether that's creating a teacher gun program, or expanding the light rail line. Both sides do a good job of raising the costs of the other side's pet projects. It'd be a bit foolish not to budget properly on the hope the other side will just decide not to defend their values.

gbaji wrote:
Students know where the LEOs on campus are. And frankly, the primary purpose of those officers is to prevent your normal everyday mischief on campus. Make sure the kids aren't doing drugs openly in the quad or whatever. The point is that any kid planning an attack like this will make "wait until the cop goes on his lunch break, or is sitting in the guard room on the far side of the campus" as step one in his plan.
How does this same issue not apply to normal teachers and guns? Admittedly I'm a bit removed from school-age myself, but we pretty much all knew which teachers and students brought guns to school, even though they usually tried to keep it hidden, and could get in a lot of trouble for having them. Seems like if the threat of losing your job or being kicked out of school isn't enough to keep a secret the small risk of an active shooter wouldn't be enough either.
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#4805 Mar 01 2018 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Students know where the LEOs on campus are. And frankly, the primary purpose of those officers is to prevent your normal everyday mischief on campus.

As opposed to teachers who float about the campus like a mystery and no one knows who they are. And are apparently tasked with engaging in firefights while the law enforcement officials are just there to break up hallways make-out sessions.
angrymnk wrote:
Did we already talk about 45 talking gun grab and dealing with due process later? This news cycle is so insane, remarks like that become tertiary story. It is oddly impressive.

I heard about it but figure the odds are far and against the GOP going along and Trump will probably be calling it fake news a week from now.
lolgaxe wrote:
The potential of an armed good guy was pretty high at that church in Texas, too. Didn't seem to deter that shooting in Lincoln County, Mississippi either. Or the one at the Walmart in Colorado ... huh, it's like there are real life incidents where the potential of armed resistance doesn't actually have any real life affect at all.

The chance of an armed good guy was 100% at the shooting range where Chris Kyle was murdered, Which worked out great for the killer who then used Chris's gun to kill Chris's friend.
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#4806 Mar 01 2018 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
The chance of an armed good guy was 100% at the shooting range where Chris Kyle was murdered, Which worked out great for the killer who then used Chris's gun to kill Chris's friend.
That's the thing! Someone knew there were guns at a gun-range so they were totally safe to murder people! If there weren't any guns there then they'd have been afraid of there maybe being guns and Kyle would have been safe.

It all makes sense if you've had a dual-hemispherectomy.
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#4807 Mar 01 2018 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
In other news, Hope Hicks is leaving the White House. As a young pretty conservative communications major, I'm sure she'll enjoy her eventual job at Fox News just fine. Hicks and the White House say it had nothing to o with her House testimony yesterday although private WH sources mention that Trump went off on her for admitting that she's told "white lies" for the president.

Although this article from earlier in the month talks about how the WH Communications department was a mess under Hicks and her being part of the whole Rob Porter scandal including writing an official White House defense for her wife-beating boyfriend probably laid the ground work for this a while ago.

I'm guessing this is who Omarosa was alluding to when she left, that somebody (not Omarosa) was doing special favors around the WH. I can only assume that Hope Hicks' real "job" rhymes with her name.
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#4808 Mar 01 2018 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Dick's Sporting Goods says they won't sell "Assault Rifle" style weapons anymore. And that they won't sell guns to anyone under 21 regardless of local laws.
Never going to be able to comprehend how you can die for your country or (apparently in some states) buy a gun but **** no, you can't drink unless your 21+ in the US.
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#4809 Mar 02 2018 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Never going to be able to comprehend how you can die for your country or (apparently in some states) buy a gun but **** no, you can't drink unless your 21+ in the US.
Well, they are highly regulated.

I keep seeing people arguing the gun purchasing age should be 18 because the military lets 18 year olds have weapons, and I keep thinking "Sure, let the government hold and track your weapon at all times until they decide it's time for you to use it, months of initial training, followed by constant retraining and recertifications ..."

Edited, Mar 2nd 2018 9:22am by lolgaxe
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#4810 Mar 02 2018 at 11:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Georgia state legislature officially voted to kill a bill for a tax break for Delta on jet fuel in retaliation for Delta ending NRA discounts.

Apparently the GOP believes in cutting taxes for the trickle down effect on working class voters -- unless their golden calf patron gets dinged then it's all fuck the working class.

While Delta leaving Atlanta is very unlikely a number of people think this probably torpedoes Atlanta's chance to stay in the running for Amazon's new headquarters.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2018 11:22am by Jophiel
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#4811 Mar 02 2018 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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Fuck the dead kids, I need my 10% off my next flight.

Amazing just how fast Georgia is to act to save the NRA from the danger of not saving a few bucks. Between that and Florida saving teens from porn my faith in politicos is strengthened. Getting the important things done.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2018 2:58pm by lolgaxe
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#4812 Mar 02 2018 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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When Fox News uses the exact phrase that liberals have been using:
"Imagine if Obama had said that!"
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#4813 Mar 02 2018 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Can we start using the phrase "Trump regime" ad infinitum now?
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#4814 Mar 02 2018 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
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I think I was molested as a child.

I say that only partially seriously. But not to make light of real molestation, but to think about what it means when age / sex roles are reversed.

When I was around 7-8 years old, there was a teenage girl who lived down the road from me. She was the daughter of a friend of my mother. And she would do things. Mostly teasing, but a lot of "showing". Inviting me into the restroom while she was using it, changing clothes, taking off bathing suits while swimming in a pool. Very little physical contact, though some. Looking back on it, I don't have any negative memories of the events, and don't think it negatively affected me at all. But I'm not sure in the end "I liked it" means it was OK. And I definitely wouldn't want a 14-15 year old neighbor boy doing anything of the sort to any future 7-8 year old daughter I may have...

Just one of those things... it's an obvious double standard. But I honestly cannot equate my experience with the hypothetical of a 14 year old boy doing the same thing to a 7 year old girl.

I do remember a few years ago (around 30-31 at the time) talking about growing up with my mother. And mentioning this girl (leaving out the details about how she acted with me while we were alone...). My mother told me then that she was always over at our house because she didn't get along with her parents. So when they made her mad she'd leave and come down to our place and hang out until her mother showed up to take her back home. I always thought my mom was babysitting her when I was a kid. I guess in a way she was. But she was old enough to be on her own and not need a sitter.


Kind of a random thought. But this is just a catch all thread.
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#4815 Mar 02 2018 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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Nice.
#4816 Mar 03 2018 at 12:47 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:

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#4817 Mar 05 2018 at 7:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Back to guns for a moment: it's silly to allow the conversation to focus solely on schools, anyway. Assuming we make every public school in America 100% safe with regards to gun violence, such that kids are going to prison for eight hours a day.... where does that leave movie theaters, concerts, malls, churches?

If you haven't seen the NRA "they're comin' for our guns!" ad, it's worth checking out. It's a call to arms, no more, no less.

It's only a matter of time before someone opens fire on a peaceful demonstration, and then we'll see the clash of the first and second amendments. My prediction is that the right to hold legal, peaceful demonstrations will be "temporarily" suspended for the participants' own safety.

Yay authoritarianism.
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#4818 Mar 05 2018 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Back to guns for a moment: it's silly to allow the conversation to focus solely on schools, anyway. Assuming we make every public school in America 100% safe with regards to gun violence, such that kids are going to prison for eight hours a day.... where does that leave movie theaters, concerts, malls, churches?

Obviously we'll need to randomly arm movie theater ushers and Hot Topic employees.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#4819 Mar 05 2018 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
If you haven't seen the NRA "they're comin' for our guns!" ad, it's worth checking out.
They should have thought about that before voting for the guy that wants to take them.
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#4820 Mar 05 2018 at 8:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Samira wrote:
If you haven't seen the NRA "they're comin' for our guns!" ad, it's worth checking out.
They should have thought about that before voting for the guy that wants to take them.



There was a tweet this morning that made that point, paraphrased:

Obama: I'm not going to take your guns.
NRA: HE'S GOING TO TAKE OUR GUNS!
H.Clinton: I'm not going to take your guns.
NRA: SHE'S GOING TO TAKE OUR GUNS!
Trump: I'm going to take your guns.
NRA: He's just joking.
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#4821 Mar 05 2018 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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We live in such a weird time that the world is ending and it's all just so hilarious.
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#4822 Mar 06 2018 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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I mean, it's the least they could do honestly. If they really have to destroy the world, it's a nice thought to let us have some fun while they do it.
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#4823 Mar 06 2018 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
So the possibility that a store owner might be armed doesn't factor into your decision to rob the store?

Well, there were over 25,000 convenience store and gas station robberies in 2016 so, uh, probably not too much.

Just because I'm a curious fellow, I checked and the US had one convenience store or gas station robbery per 8,500 people in 2008. Canada, where gun laws are stricter and you can't just keep a 9mm in the cash drawer, had one store/station robbery per 9,450 people in 2008 (I only picked 2008 because I could find official stats for both nations for that year). Granted, we can find other potential differences between the two nations but it certainly would appear that the much greater chance of finding a store clerk with a pistol wasn't a significant robbery deterrent in the United States.


Um... You do realize you didn't actually address my point at all, right? The rate of "robberies of convenience stores" doesn't change if "some" of them might have an armed store owner. What it does change is whether or not the potential robber avoids the stores where there might be an armed owner, while targeting those where he knows they are not. Or, and I'm just spit balling here, that he may decide to rob a chain convenience store where he knows the company policy is for employees to not be armed, instead of the mom and pop grocery right down the street, where he has no such assurance.

Which is actually relevant to things like school shootings. Angry kid wants to show how powerful and mighty he is. Knows that the local school, where the kids who bullied him are, and the teachers who harassed him are, is in a "gun free zone". So he decides to go get a gun and shoot up the school.

It's entirely possible that, in a world where he had no such assurance, he might make a totally different decision to outlet his anger. We don't know what that might be. Heck. It might not even involve a firearm. But it's less likely to involve shooting up a school. And if our objective here is "how do we prevent school shootings", that would seem to be pretty darn significant.
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#4824 Mar 06 2018 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Even if that's only 1% of the total faculty members, it's still sufficient to act as a deterrent.
The potential of an armed good guy was pretty high at that church in Texas, too.


Most people don't take their guns to church. Most churches, even in areas where carry is generally allowed, tend to request their members to not bring them. So I'm not sure what your point is here.

Quote:
Didn't seem to deter that shooting in Lincoln County, Mississippi either.


And? That wasn't a match to the usual spree shooting either. Assuming you're talking about the guy with multiple felony offenses on his record who started out killing a few of his family members, then proceeded to shoot some other folks, including a police officer, that is. Note how the laws prohibiting him from owning a firearm also didn't seem to impact his ability to do this at all. Again though, that's not so relevant to the "disturbed kid goes on a rampage at his school" type shooting that we're talking about.

Quote:
Or the one at the Walmart in Colorado ... huh, it's like there are real life incidents where the potential of armed resistance doesn't actually have any real life affect at all.


Sigh. Again. There are different types of shootings, with different motivations for the shooter. We can't treat them all with one broad brush. What I always find interesting in this debate is how the motivation for "fixing something!" comes when we have a mass shooting of the kind we just had in Florida, but when proposed changes get tossed out there, suddenly all these other types of crimes committed with guns start getting pushed in. "Oh no! We can't do that, because <insert other shooting here> wont be affected!". Um... So what? Let's focus on the school shootings. That's what's pushing this, right?

Quote:
Really, any shooting that happens somewhere that might have had an armed "good guy" pretty much proves that potential ninja snipers aren't a deterrent.


Except the one case we're actually talking about, which is schools. Right? I thought the whole point here was to figure out how to prevent school shootings like we just saw in Florida.

Quote:
Allegory wrote:
Most of the licensed gun owners I know treat their weapons like toys and don't maintain them, so I doubt they'll make fees there.
Worry not! You can rest assured knowing that the 89 year old English teacher that might be packing that luger spends every night making sure their weapon is safe to fire and they're adequate at consistently hitting their targets between grading papers.


Let's just toss out the silly strawman then. Why not assume that out of the set of gun owners, some will be competent and confident in their gun use, and others will be folks who bought one 20 years ago, and have never touched it, or who have one because their spouse who died back in 1972 had one, and it's still sitting in the drawer collecting dust. Why assume that out of these two different sets of gun owners, the ones who'll be packing heat at school will be the latter?

There are plenty of faculty at our K-12 schools who are in the former set. And out of those, the ones who are most likely to actually bring their weapons to work with them, will be the ones who are the most well practiced, not the least. Why throw that potential resource out the window when the lives of our kids are on the line? What's that you say? We can't allow "the people" to protect themselves? Can't have a solution to any problem that doesn't involve some big expensive government funded program? Yeah. That's more likely what is running this. It's not even about gun control for many on the Left who oppose this, but that they just don't like the idea of "people" being empowered to do things. All solutions must be government solutions. To allow otherwise would undermine their entire political ideology.

And no amount of dead kids will ever let them allow that to happen!

Edited, Mar 6th 2018 5:25pm by gbaji
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#4825 Mar 06 2018 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
The chance of an armed good guy was 100% at the shooting range where Chris Kyle was murdered, Which worked out great for the killer who then used Chris's gun to kill Chris's friend.
That's the thing! Someone knew there were guns at a gun-range so they were totally safe to murder people! If there weren't any guns there then they'd have been afraid of there maybe being guns and Kyle would have been safe.


And now we're veering off into freaking assassination style attacks? This was a remote gun range, not the kind with dozens of armed people standing around. Just the three men were there. Pretty easy for one of them to shoot the other two while their backs were turned. Again. I'm not sure what value there is to bringing up other types of shootings, in other scenarios, which bear zero resemblance to the kinds of shooting which sparked this discussion in the first place.

But yeah. If they were at a fully populated gun range, there's no way the guy would have done what he did. He did it specifically because they were at a remote location, with no one else around, and he went nuts thinking they were going to kill him, so he killed them first. Again, that's not even remotely the same sort of psychological drive behind mass school shootings.

The reason gun free zones are the target zones of choice for mass shooters is precisely because they know no one else will be armed except for uniformed LEOs. The fact that other types of shootings occur in other locations does not change that fact. And yeah. Guess what? Removing gun free zones around schools wont stop gang shootings. It wont stop people who target a specific person who pissed them off. What will it stop? Random shootings of anyone who happens to be in the area. Because those types of shootings somewhat depend on the shooter being certain that the "random people in the area" wont be armed.
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#4826 Mar 06 2018 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Sigh. Again. There are different types of shootings, with different motivations for the shooter.
It's almost like the country needs to tackle the problem from different directions and use multiple ideas to combat the problem.
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