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#5002 Apr 19 2018 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
I'd imagine that media circuses around businesses tell non-paying visitors to leave are a pretty rare thing. Data points would be understandably hard to find.
I'd imagine there'd be at least one dirty hipster during the Occupy Wall Street protest.
That was all lost in a sea of body odor and police spraying protestors with bear-grade pepper spray. (I believe we've yet to determine which stung the eyes more).

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First articles I read about it did mention this particular employee being a problem before. That it wasn't her first issue with customers. No details given then, just reports from others at the cafe, it seems.

"Oh my God, that's such classic Rachel..."
I don't think Rachel would even notice they were there.
Is this a Friends reference?

Edited, Apr 19th 2018 12:44pm by TirithRR
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#5003 Apr 19 2018 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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#5004 Apr 20 2018 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Off the top of my head i can only recall one black character on Friends, Charlie.
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#5005 Apr 20 2018 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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#5006 Apr 20 2018 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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Gbaji wrote:
it appears that they had been sitting in the Starbucks for at least two hours without purchasing anything
If by 2 hours, you mean 2 minutes.

http://www.phillyvoice.com/philadelphia-starbucks-rashon-nelson-donte-robinson-black-men-arrested/

Gbaji wrote:
One of them asked to use the restroom at that point and was refused because they had been sitting there for so long not buying anything.
Seriously? Who does this? You're clearly making stuff up.
#5007 Apr 20 2018 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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Last week West Michigan learned what a Seiche is. As some small towns along the northwest coast experienced sudden flooding when Lake Michigan "Sloshed" up on shore.

Actually surprised it doesn't happen more often, given how many storms move across the Lake. Videos of it all are pretty interesting. Reading up on them, seems Lake Erie gets some big ones due to the Lake running parallel to prevailing winds.

I still think the lake effect snow is more interesting. Except when it decides to hit while I'm driving along the coast to Chicago.
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#5008 Apr 20 2018 at 8:50 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
it appears that they had been sitting in the Starbucks for at least two hours without purchasing anything
If by 2 hours, you mean 2 minutes.

http://www.phillyvoice.com/philadelphia-starbucks-rashon-nelson-donte-robinson-black-men-arrested/


Yeah. Because the two guys who were arrested are the best source for what really went down. Do you honestly think that if they were offensive, abusive, threatening, etc, that they'd say that in an interview? "I didn't do anything!" is a pretty standard response, no matter how much that person did a whole lot of things.

Having said this, that does not prove anything, in either direction. It's possible that these guy's account is 100% accurate, and the store manager is just a horrible racist who immediately asks black people to leave the store without even waiting more than 2 minutes. It's... possible.

But if that was the case, this would have literally happened a dozen or more times, every single day she worked a shift. Where are all the people popping up and talking to the media about how they got similar treatment from the same store manager at the same store? I guess my issue with this is the massive amount of coverage of what happened after the cops showed up, and tons of speculation about what lead up to this, what kind of bias caused it, and tons of claims that "if a white person had done X, Y, or Z" this wouldn't have happened, but no actual facts to back any of that up.

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Gbaji wrote:
One of them asked to use the restroom at that point and was refused because they had been sitting there for so long not buying anything.
Seriously? Who does this? You're clearly making stuff up.


As I said in my earlier post, finding hard facts on what occurred prior to the cops showing up is pretty much impossible, but I've run across several references suggesting that the two men were there for 2 hours waiting for their friend to show up. I don't know if this is just folks guessing, or estimating, or what, but that's the only reference I've gotten that suggests any sort of timeline to this. Obviously, since yesterday's interview, there's tons of reporting repeating their claim that it was only two minutes, but that's all based on their side of the story. We have yet to hear the store manager's side (and sadly, likely never will since I'd assume she's too afraid to speak publicly at this point, which said a lot about the mob rule mentality of events like this).


Again, I'm basing this more on common sense and my own long experience both working in retail establishments, and being a customer of them. In about 8 years of working at an open to the public retail outlet, I've never once seen the cops called on a customer unless the customer was being rude, violent, or offensive to the staff and/or other customers. And it never occurs in anything remotely like 2 minutes time. The last thing the employees want is to have to call the cops on someone. I suppose it's possible that she as just having a really bad day and they happened to trigger her somehow, but to suggest that their own actions had nothing at all to do with the outcome is laughable. Even after the cops showed up, they were given the opportunity to simply walk out of the store. They refused. So yeah, there was more to it than what they are claiming.

I haven't had a chance to watch the full interview, but from the bits and quotes I've read, there's a bit of BS going on. The one guy claiming he didn't know what was going on or think it was serious until he was in cuffs? Um... That's directly contradicted by multiple other sources, stating they were repeatedly asked to leave, told what would happen if they did, and at least a few stating that they responded to the police with curses and yelling. So no, I'm having a bit of trouble accepting their side of the story as total truth.

Assuming that someone must have done something wrong if they got arrested is bad logic. But so is assuming they must have done nothing wrong. Again, we can't know for sure what happened in between them walking into the store and them being taken out in handcuffs, but given the fact that literally millions of people walk into a Starbucks store every single day (over 4 million in the US alone, if my quick math is accurate), and pretty close to zero of them get taken out in handcuffs, and presumably a decent percentage of them are black, simply being black themselves could not have been the whole reason. And, assumptions of racial bias and loud protesting aside, might not have been even part of the reason.

I've seen lots of folks who are dressed poorly. Drunks. Loud mouths. You name it. You really do have to do something beyond the norm to get the cops called on you, and then have to continue to do so after they arrive to get taken away in handcuffs. So yeah, I'm going with "there's more to this than we're hearing".
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#5009 Apr 21 2018 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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gabji wrote:
That's directly contradicted by multiple other sources...
Link(s) to those sources, please.
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#5010 Apr 21 2018 at 6:11 AM Rating: Good
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Gbaji hates black people
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#5011 Apr 21 2018 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
Yeah. Because the two guys who were arrested are the best source for what really went down
No, but given that the surrounding white people who were upset about the arrest are witnesses, I doubt that the arrested guys would exaggerate 2 hours to 2 minutes without obvious backlash.

Gbaji wrote:
But if that was the case, this would have literally happened a dozen or more times, every single day she worked a shift.
Yes. However, I would assume that most black patrons probably go straight in line. Out of the remaining that decide to sit, I would guess that they would either purchase or leave upon the request. Furthermore, people don't always act out on their emotions. Just because a person did something wrong once, doesn't mean that they must do the same thing every time. Let's say the manager did the same action legitimately to customers of various demographics, do you think that manager would be around long? So, it is not unreasonable to accept a scenario of a biased manager with few complaints.

Gbaji wrote:
Again, I'm basing this more on common sense and my own long experience both working in retail establishments, and being a customer of them
Well, you're doing a bad job. Who asks a barista at Starbucks to use the restroom, unless it's locked? If they were asked to purchase or leave for two hours, why in the world would they feel obliged to ASK permission to use the restroom? That doesn't make any sense at all.
#5012 Apr 21 2018 at 9:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gbaji is basing his opinion on what happened to some black dudes on his long experience of being a white dude. I think we've had this discussion before regarding traffic stops.
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#5013 Apr 21 2018 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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According to NPR, the bathroom was locked. Apparently with a keycode system and the code is printed on purchase receipts (bathroom access was for paying customers only, enforced via locking system). It also said that was common, yet I've never actually seen that. I don't live in a big city though.

The only reason they were arrested was because they refused the officers' three requests for them to leave. They could have left and made the media fuss over being kicked out due to being black and the same protest would have likely happened without the arrest.
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#5014 Apr 21 2018 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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With that being said, maybe the "big city life" is different, but the problem isn't that they didn't leave, the problem is why were they asked to leave? Having people sit around beyond their expected stay is literally part of a coffee shop. Hence why they promote "free wifi". The logic is, you stay around long enough, you will purchase something.

I'm not saying that there might not be any missing information, I'm just applying common sense to what information that I know so far.
#5015 Apr 21 2018 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
the problem is why were they asked to leave?
Because of some unknown argument between this woman and these two men stemming from her denying them access to the restroom. One that we may never know the truth about. If the woman is smart she'll keep her head down and stay out of the public eye until this all blows over. She has absolutely nothing to gain by making herself public and attempting to tell her side of the story at this point.

Almalieque wrote:
Having people sit around beyond their expected stay is literally part of a coffee shop. Hence why they promote "free wifi". The logic is, you stay around long enough, you will purchase something.
Which when you look at the big picture, it should have you asking some other questions. Why would she ask these two to leave less than two minutes after they arrived just because they asked for bathroom access? (She had to have finished her conversation in less than two minutes if she supposedly called the police two minutes after they arrived). "Because they are Black" is an agenda-convenient reason. But that can't be the first time a Black customer showed up at this Starbucks, can't be the first time people sat around for extended times before or after buying something, and can't be the first time someone asked to use the restroom without buying something. This "common sense" you ask for just screams "more than just a woman hating black people and calling the cops two minutes after a couple of them showed up in her store."

Edited, Apr 21st 2018 5:31pm by TirithRR
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#5016 Apr 21 2018 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Why would she ask these two to leave less than two minutes after they arrived just because they asked for bathroom access? (She had to have finished her conversation in less than two minutes if she supposedly called the police two minutes after they arrived). "Because they are Black" is an agenda-convenient reason. But that can't be the first time a Black customer showed up at this Starbucks, can't be the first time people sat around for extended times before or after buying something, and can't be the first time someone asked to use the restroom without buying something. This "common sense" you ask for just screams "more than just a woman hating black people and calling the cops two minutes after a couple of them showed up in her store."


So, you automatically assume that it is the fault of the two gentlemen who were arrested?

Let me guess, it's because they were black?!

Racist!

Edited, Apr 21st 2018 2:53pm by stupidmonkey
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#5017 Apr 21 2018 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
So, you automatically assume that it is the fault of the two gentlemen who were arrested?

No. Just that her asking them to leave was because of an argument the two sides had, not because the two men were black. Whether or not one side or the other was on the wrong side of the argument or at fault is of no real concern when it comes to the reasoning for them being asked to leave. I'm sure the woman was a bitch (not sure if calling a woman a dick would be the same meaning), as apparently she had been problematic before. There's just not enough evidence here to say she was a racist bitch.

The fact that the two men just happened to be black shouldn't be enough declare the negative interaction as racist. Arguments and negative interactions should be able to exist without racism being the cause. Sometimes assholes are just assholes.
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#5018 Apr 21 2018 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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On to other not so politically correct issues. Mini-Me died. Some Fat Bastard must have finally ate him.

Edited, Apr 21st 2018 8:19pm by TirithRR
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#5019 Apr 21 2018 at 11:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Why would she ask these two to leave less than two minutes after they arrived just because they asked for bathroom access?


Yeah, gosh, why would that ever happen? Let's all think REAL HARD about that.
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#5020 Apr 22 2018 at 4:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
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Why would she ask these two to leave less than two minutes after they arrived just because they asked for bathroom access?


Yeah, gosh, why would that ever happen? Let's all think REAL HARD about that.
Well, I’ve already explained why it’s not likely just “because they were black” so... feel free to think “hard” all you want.

We don't have any evidence of her doing this to any white people.
But we also don't have any evidence of her doing this to any other black people.
We only have evidence of her doing this to these two individuals.

So, the only evidence we have of this being because they were black, is that they were black. Which I don't buy as real evidence (or at least, enough evidence). If we buy that , we are essentially saying that ANY interaction between individuals is racist. Which is wrong. People can hate, argue, disagree, etc without the cause being racism. Even if one of those people happen to be white and the other black.

And as I told Stupidmonkey, saying that the cause wasn't racism, that the cause was an argument between the woman and the two men isn't blaming the men. The woman can still be at fault or wrong to do what she did, without the cause of what she did being that the two men were black.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2018 7:25am by TirithRR
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#5021 Apr 22 2018 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Well, I’ve already explained why I think it’s not likely just “because they were black” so... feel free to think “hard” all you want because it's obvious that i didn't.


FTFY
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#5022 Apr 22 2018 at 2:50 PM Rating: Default
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Well, I’ve already explained why I think it’s not likely just “because they were black” so... feel free to think “hard” all you want because it's obvious that i didn't.


FTFY, Any interaction with a black person is automatically racist.


Same.
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#5023 Apr 22 2018 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Tirith wrote:
Because of some unknown argument between this woman and these two men stemming from her denying them access to the restroom. One that we may never know the truth about. If the woman is smart she'll keep her head down and stay out of the public eye until this all blows over. She has absolutely nothing to gain by making herself public and attempting to tell her side of the story at this point.


Acknowledging that we are operating without all of the facts, that doesn't make sense. Unless they are from out of town or have never been to that Starbucks, then they would have been aware of the purchasing rules. Given that they were there for a business meeting, that location would not have been ideal, if they went in "looking for trouble".

Tirith wrote:
But that can't be the first time a Black customer showed up at this Starbucks
I already addressed this.

Tirith wrote:
can't be the first time people sat around for extended times before or after buying something, and can't be the first time someone asked to use the restroom without buying something
Which is moving the goal post. It went from "They didn't buy anything" to "They must have done something!!"

Tirith wrote:
This "common sense" you ask for just screams "more than just a woman hating black people and calling the cops two minutes after a couple of them showed up in her store."
Common sense says that there should have been people there coming out to defend the lady. Instead, the action was recorded, with people (white people at that) complaining.
#5024 Apr 22 2018 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Having read none of the news stories, and having zero knowledge of this incident beyond what has been said in this thread, here's my completely fabricated, but probably accurate rundown of what actually happened.

Two guys walk into Starbucks. They hang out for a bit. One of them asks to use the bathroom. The bathroom policy is that it to be used only by paying customers. This policy is enforced by an electronic lock system, which means that this particular Starbucks is at least a little bit serious about it's enforcement. The manager points out the policy and denies the man the use of the bathroom without a purchase. At this point, she is enforcing the store policy, a policy that she most likely had no hand creating.

The man (not customer, customers buy things) gets annoyed at the policy and tries to convince her to ignore it and let him use the bathroom. Not wanting to get in trouble for bypassing the policy, the manager again points out the policy and denies him access. This goes back and forth for a bit, both of them getting more and more frustrated at the other. Eventually, it escalates to the point where the man is asked to leave. Despite what this fellow thinks, the store is private property, and if asked to leave, he has to leave, otherwise it's called trespassing, which is illegal. He refuses to leave and the police are called. The police arrive and he's told repeatedly that he can leave or be arrested for trespassing. He chose to be arrested. His friend at some point got involved and got to join him.

Up until this point, none of this scenario takes skin color into account. The reason for that, is that skin color only became relevant when the media got involved. This is just another situation that has been blown completely out of proportion by the need to fill a 24 hour news cycle. If you want to blame anyone, blame everyone else for needing to so desperately be distracted from their own boring lives, that stupid stuff like this is needed to keep them occupied.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2018 5:59pm by Turin
#5025 Apr 22 2018 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
moving the goal post
Goal post hasn't moved. It remains at proving she did what she did out of racism. Because the two men were black. Which I stand by saying there is not enough proof available to show it.

Almalieque wrote:
they went in "looking for trouble".
[...]
"They must have done something!!"
As I said, her not being racist doesn't make her right, nor does it make the men wrong.

Almalieque wrote:
Instead, the action was recorded, with people (white people at that) complaining.
The police actions were recorded. I'm not aware of any recording of the interaction between the men and the woman that lead up to the police call.
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#5026 Apr 22 2018 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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Tirith wrote:
Goal post hasn't moved. It remains at proving she did what she did out of racism. Because the two men were black. Which I stand by saying there is not enough proof available to show it.
That isn't my "goal". I'm just addressing the points made. It may very well turn out that the guys did something wrong. My comment was that the original claim was that she was justified because they didn't purchase anything. When it was pointed out how normal that is at a coffee shop, then it shifted to "They must have done something wrong".

Tirith wrote:
The police actions were recorded. I'm not aware of any recording of the interaction between the men and the woman that lead up to the police call.
Yes, but there were people during the interaction, even if they had left before the police. They saw what happened and no one has yet come out to counter the perceived narrative. Furthermore, you can hear a woman in the tape clearly say that the guys didn't do anything wrong when the friend asked the police what did they do to get arrested. These were white people that witnessed the interaction answering the friend's question.

It's possible that they saw what they wanted to see, but the fact remains that there is yet any counter narrative from witnesses. Therefore, there is no reason to assume anything outside of what has been presented.
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