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#977 May 22 2015 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm not the one saying that any solution that isn't a federal government solution isn't a real solution at all.

You are, in fact, the only one saying that. As your strawman to whine about liberals.


Ok. Then you tell me what exactly about all the GOP proposals that I've raised on this forum make them "not a plan"?
But hey, if you can tell me what criteria you guys use, I'm all ears.
Go ahead and link 1 or 2 posts you made containing these GOP proposals that aren't "somebody will magically fund this stuff".

I'll wait...


So your criteria for something not being a plan is the absence of government funding? Just seeing if I'm reading you correctly here. You paying attention Joph?
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#978 May 22 2015 at 9:27 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm not the one saying that any solution that isn't a federal government solution isn't a real solution at all.

You are, in fact, the only one saying that. As your strawman to whine about liberals.


Ok. Then you tell me what exactly about all the GOP proposals that I've raised on this forum make them "not a plan"?
But hey, if you can tell me what criteria you guys use, I'm all ears.
Go ahead and link 1 or 2 posts you made containing these GOP proposals that aren't "somebody will magically fund this stuff".

I'll wait...


So your criteria for something not being a plan is the absence of government funding? Just seeing if I'm reading you correctly here. You paying attention Joph?
I asked for a GOP plan. Provide the link or admit there isn't one.
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#979 May 22 2015 at 9:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm not the one saying that any solution that isn't a federal government solution isn't a real solution at all.
You are, in fact, the only one saying that. As your strawman to whine about liberals.
Ok. Then you tell me what exactly about all the GOP proposals that I've raised on this forum make them "not a plan"?

Whether I did or not wouldn't make your statement any more accurate. You're terrible at this "logic" stuff.

I'll admit that you could call most of your proposals "plans". Terrible, short-sighted "plans" that generally boil down to "Pass GOP wishlist, wait for stuff to magically happen... it will, we promise" and go against any common sense but that doesn't make them not "plans". I mean, setting yourself on fire to keep mosquitoes away is a "plan", right? Now whether or not it's a "real solution" is another matter.
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#980 May 24 2015 at 8:58 PM Rating: Good
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Apparently Scarecrow has set up shop in Florida and is distributing his Fear Gas in pill form.
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In Broward County, a man ran down a street wearing only sneakers, saying a pack of German shepherds was hunting him. Another person became impaled on a fence.
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#981 May 26 2015 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm not the one saying that any solution that isn't a federal government solution isn't a real solution at all.

You are, in fact, the only one saying that. As your strawman to whine about liberals.


Ok. Then you tell me what exactly about all the GOP proposals that I've raised on this forum make them "not a plan"?
But hey, if you can tell me what criteria you guys use, I'm all ears.
Go ahead and link 1 or 2 posts you made containing these GOP proposals that aren't "somebody will magically fund this stuff".

I'll wait...


So your criteria for something not being a plan is the absence of government funding? Just seeing if I'm reading you correctly here. You paying attention Joph?
I asked for a GOP plan. Provide the link or admit there isn't one.


Huh? You couldn't just google it yourself?

  • Fully repeals President Obama's health care law, eliminating billions in taxes and thousands of pages of unworkable regulations and mandates that are driving up health care costs.
  • Spurs competition to lower health care costs by allowing Americans to purchase health insurance across state lines and enabling small businesses to pool together and get the same buying power as large corporations.
  • Reforms medical malpractice laws in a commonsense way that limits trial lawyer fees and non-economic damages while maintaining strong protections for patients.
  • Provides tax reform that allows families and individuals to deduct health care costs, just like companies, leveling the playing field and providing all Americans with a standard deduction for health insurance.
  • Expands access to Health Savings Accounts (HSAs), increasing the amount of pre-tax dollars individuals can deposit into portable savings accounts to be used for health care expenses.
  • Safeguards individuals with pre-existing conditions from being discriminated against purchasing health insurance by bolstering state-based high risk pools and extending HIPAA guaranteed availability protections.
  • Protects the unborn by ensuring no federal funding of abortions.


Most of those are the same arguments and alternatives that were proposed back in 2009 when the Dems were pushing for the ACA in the first place (minus the whole "repeal the ACA", of course). Actually, I think all of these (except the repeal) were proposed many times back then. And ignored, or rejected as "not being a plan".

You may not like the plan, but please stop insisting that the GOP doesn't have one.
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#982 May 26 2015 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I'll admit that you could call most of your proposals "plans". Terrible, short-sighted "plans" that generally boil down to "Pass GOP wishlist, wait for stuff to magically happen... it will, we promise" and go against any common sense but that doesn't make them not "plans". I mean, setting yourself on fire to keep mosquitoes away is a "plan", right? Now whether or not it's a "real solution" is another matter.


Ok. But surely you can see that the reason one might respond with "you don't have a plan", rather than "that's a bad plan", is because in the latter, you might actually have to engage in a discussion about the relative merits of the plan you oppose and the plan you support, while if you just insist that the other guy "doesn't have a plan", you can avoid having to discuss such details. And at the risk of speculating further, I'd suggest that the motivation for doing this sort of avoidance is because one maybe isn't sure their preferred plan would hold up to scrutiny when directly compared to an alternative.

If the Left really thought that the ACA was a better plan than either the previous system, or any of a number of GOP suggestions, they'd have no problem saying "our plan is better and here's why". Instead, we get repeated insistence that "The GOP has no plan". Again, this speaks volumes about how little those on the Left even know about the details of their own plan and/or how little confidence they have in it. At some point, I'm kinda left assuming they just want to pass "something that's called health care reform", so they can stick that feather in their cap and call it a day. Doesn't seem to matter if it's a complete disaster. Which I find strange.
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#983 May 26 2015 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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So you think the ACA has been a complete disaster? Interesting.
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#984 May 26 2015 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Ok. But surely you can see that the reason one might respond with "you don't have a plan", rather than "that's a bad plan", is because in the latter, you might actually have to engage in a discussion about the relative merits of the plan you oppose and the plan you support, while if you just insist that the other guy "doesn't have a plan", you can avoid having to discuss such details

Really? You feel that sometimes a party may just repeatedly insist that the second party has never provided information despite their having done so many times over a several year span? And they do this because it's easier to just keep saying "No you haven't" than it is to debate the factual merits of the other party's arguments? And you feel that this is something someone does because they don't feel that their own arguments will hold up to scrutiny? And that this sort of behavior speaks volumes about one's understanding of the arguments or confidence in their stance?

Well now, that's interesting...

Edited, May 26th 2015 5:29pm by Jophiel
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#985 May 26 2015 at 4:50 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
If the Left really thought that the ACA was a better plan than either the previous system, or any of a number of GOP suggestions, they'd have no problem saying "our plan is better and here's why". Instead, we get repeated insistence that "The GOP has no plan". Again, this speaks volumes about how little those on the Left even know about the details of their own plan and/or how little confidence they have in it. At some point, I'm kinda left assuming they just want to pass "something that's called health care reform", so they can stick that feather in their cap and call it a day. Doesn't seem to matter if it's a complete disaster. Which I find strange.


The Democrats repeat "The GOP has no plan", because instead of working together to address particular parts of the ACA or present an entirely new plan for themselves, the GOP simply attacks the ACA. No one denies the complexity of health reform, but if you're making a lot of noise with no substance, then you should be called out. This is similar to the 11 million undocumented people in the U.S. There's a lot of noise, but there is no plan to actually address them.
#986 May 26 2015 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
So you think the ACA has been a complete disaster? Interesting.


Yes. Just looking at my own health care plan (which was quite nice before the ACA passed), the deductible doubled, the copays doubled, and the max contribution before the insurance takes up the rest doubled (the "hole in the middle" actually got bigger). Of course, that's just my insurance based on the fact sheet that I got last year about all the changes that were made in response to the passage of ACA. So maybe anecdotal. But then, there's a hell of a lot of such anecdotes. Every single person I know who is employed and had insurance from their employer previously (and this includes people in both the private and public sectors) saw their out of pocket health care insurance costs increase.

I'm not even sure how much it helped those who previously didn't have health insurance. The numbers are kinda iffy on that, given that most of them are still under exemption clauses created in order to avoid some serious problems in the health care law itself. So either no benefit, or a promised benefit, which may or may not actually come. And that's not counting the millions who will (once this part of the law goes into effect) find themselves being required to purchase health insurance that they still can't afford.

The law basically created mandates that couldn't be paid for, presumably under the intention that when those mandates finally went into effect and negatively impacted a boat load of people, they'd cover that gap with yet more spending for public health care pools (ie: expand medicare to subsidize the mandated health care costs). There are a host of problems with this as well though, problems which we haven't even run into yet (but are looming).


So far, the only positive effect the ACA has had was that it closed some gaps with regard to low income earners who previously fell out of the medicaid coverage levels, but could not afford (or were not provided by their employers) health insurance. But it's still unclear how many that's really helped, given that so far it looks like an equal number of people (possibly more) who previously did have health insurance lost it because of the increased costs of meeting the ACA mandates. So we basically made the initial problem (millions of Americans who did not have health insurance, but were not covered by medicaid) worse. We could have simply closed those gaps while keeping the existing system intact, and done much better. Or maybe tried the whole "let insurance companies compete across state lines" idea, and maybe made it possible for more of those people to find health coverage plans that they could afford (gasp! A market solution? That's crazy talk!). The method used was like smashing a fly with a wrecking ball.


The negatives of the ACA vastly outweigh the incredibly tiny positives. As I said, most of the actual good things about the ACA were already on the table from the outset (see the GOP alternatives above). Protection for pre-existing conditions, and closing of coverage gaps, for example. What the ACA did was hold the relatively simple and obtainable solutions hostage in the name of creating a massive government power grab into our health industry. And yes, that has been a "complete disaster". Even not considering the terrible roll out problems, there are a host of legal problems with the law that have still not been resolved, and a host of funding issues that are just waiting to bite us because the law was basically written with a "kick the cost can down the road" approach from day one.

How would you describe it? Did your health care costs go up or down? It's just funny because everyone points to all the sources predicting these wonderful positive results of the ACA, but the reality doesn't seem to be remotely matching that. It's actually matching quite well with exactly the concerns the Right raised back in 2009 when opposing passage of the law in the first place. But hey! What did we know. I mean, we only predicted that employers would drop their plans and dump people on the exchanges. And we only predicted that those who didn't do that would shift to new plans with cost points that would hurt the insured. And that's just the low hanging fruit of obvious predictions that came completely true. If I were to dig into the issue, I could probably find a half dozen more.


And again, lest we forget, we're still operating under a set of very questionable (from a legal standpoint) exemptions designed to make it so the negative effects don't hit as many of the "common people". So if you're joe average low income earner, you haven't had the negatives hit you yet. The folks earning mid or higher wages are the only ones who've seen their insurance costs skyrocket since the ACA came into effect. But just wait until folks earning minimum wage are told that they must go out and purchase health insurance because that's what the mandate requires of them. And just wait until the cost limits disappear and they're suddenly faced with several thousand dollars a year in costs that they didn't have before. Then we can start asking the working poor how they think the ACA has helped them.
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#987 May 26 2015 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
If the Left really thought that the ACA was a better plan than either the previous system, or any of a number of GOP suggestions, they'd have no problem saying "our plan is better and here's why". Instead, we get repeated insistence that "The GOP has no plan". Again, this speaks volumes about how little those on the Left even know about the details of their own plan and/or how little confidence they have in it. At some point, I'm kinda left assuming they just want to pass "something that's called health care reform", so they can stick that feather in their cap and call it a day. Doesn't seem to matter if it's a complete disaster. Which I find strange.


The Democrats repeat "The GOP has no plan", because instead of working together to address particular parts of the ACA or present an entirely new plan for themselves, the GOP simply attacks the ACA.


I just linked and quoted an alternative plan. They aren't "simply attacking the ACA". They're saying, quite clearly, "this is what's wrong with the ACA, and this is what we think we should be doing instead". I'm not sure how you can equate that to "They don't have a plan".

I'll also point out that you don't seem to use the "instead of working together" requirement when assessing whether the ACA was "a plan" in the first place. You get that the Dems basically shut the GOP out of the process entirely, ignored all proposed alternative and amendments, and just attacked the GOP for not getting on board with "their plan". If refusing to work with the other guy, and instead just attacking him for not agreeing with you is what makes your proposal "not a plan", then the ACA wasn't a plan either. You know, if we're going to apply the same rules to both sides.

Quote:
No one denies the complexity of health reform, but if you're making a lot of noise with no substance, then you should be called out. This is similar to the 11 million undocumented people in the U.S. There's a lot of noise, but there is no plan to actually address them.


Again. I just linked a freaking alternative health care plan. That's not "no substance". I find it amusing that you still want to argue about whether the GOP has a plan, all the while steadfastly avoiding actually discussing the plan I just quoted. How about you go look at the list I provided and tell me why that's not a good idea, but the ACA is so much better? Can you do that?
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#988 May 26 2015 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Ok. But surely you can see that the reason one might respond with "you don't have a plan", rather than "that's a bad plan", is because in the latter, you might actually have to engage in a discussion about the relative merits of the plan you oppose and the plan you support, while if you just insist that the other guy "doesn't have a plan", you can avoid having to discuss such details

Really? You feel that sometimes a party may just repeatedly insist that the second party has never provided information despite their having done so many times over a several year span? And they do this because it's easier to just keep saying "No you haven't" than it is to debate the factual merits of the other party's arguments? And you feel that this is something someone does because they don't feel that their own arguments will hold up to scrutiny? And that this sort of behavior speaks volumes about one's understanding of the arguments or confidence in their stance?

Well now, that's interesting...


Yes, it is. I'm sure you'd be fine with providing a detailed description of what makes it interesting though. You know, in light of how interesting it is when someone avoids discussing details and instead relies on simple rhetoric.
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#989 May 26 2015 at 6:01 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
I just linked and quoted an alternative plan.
What's the name of that bill again? Is it in the GOP led house or the GOP led senate?

Gbaji wrote:
I find it amusing that you still want to argue about whether the GOP has a plan, all the while steadfastly avoiding actually discussing the plan I just quoted
A plan to address the 11 million undocumented people?

You have a habit of picking and choosing what to respond to in attempt to avoid any error.

Edited, May 27th 2015 3:09am by Almalieque
#991 May 26 2015 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Really? You feel that sometimes a party may just repeatedly insist that the second party has never provided information despite their having done so many times over a several year span? And they do this because it's easier to just keep saying "No you haven't" than it is to debate the factual merits of the other party's arguments? And you feel that this is something someone does because they don't feel that their own arguments will hold up to scrutiny? And that this sort of behavior speaks volumes about one's understanding of the arguments or confidence in their stance?

Well now, that's interesting...

Yes, it is. I'm sure you'd be fine with providing a detailed description of what makes it interesting though.

Smiley: laugh
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#992 May 26 2015 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:

I asked for a GOP plan. Provide the link or admit there isn't one.
Huh? You couldn't just google it yourself?
A link to a post you made here containing the plan, dunce. Learn to read.

GOP "plan" wrote:
•Fully repeals President Obama's health care law, eliminating billions in taxes and thousands of pages of unworkable regulations and mandates that are driving up health care costs.
•Spurs competition to lower health care costs by allowing Americans to purchase health insurance across state lines and enabling small businesses to pool together and get the same buying power as large corporations.
•Reforms medical malpractice laws in a commonsense way that limits trial lawyer fees and non-economic damages while maintaining strong protections for patients.
•Provides tax reform that allows families and individuals to deduct health care costs, just like companies, leveling the playing field and providing all Americans with a standard deduction for health insurance.
•Expands access to Health Savings Accounts (HSAs), increasing the amount of pre-tax dollars individuals can deposit into portable savings accounts to be used for health care expenses.
•Safeguards individuals with pre-existing conditions from being discriminated against purchasing health insurance by bolstering state-based high risk pools and extending HIPAA guaranteed availability protections.
•Protects the unborn by ensuring no federal funding of abortions.
None of which gets me, Bijou, health insurance.

Also; adding the bit about no federally funded abortions makes it a "GOP Wish List" not a plan.

gbaji wrote:
I'm not even sure how much it helped those who previously didn't have health insurance.
Well, before ACA I couldn't get health insurance AT ALL and I couldn't afford it even if I could get it. (Which, y'know, I couldn't due to PEC's).

Much like millions of other Americans.

Which is sort of the point of the ACA.

You previously mentioned that Romney's Mass. health care which seems to work just fine is "untenable" on a national scale. You have said this on several occasions. I have never seen, though, an explanation as to why it is so very unworkable at a national scale. This seems a good a thread as any to explain that one.
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#993 May 26 2015 at 9:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anecdotes are interesting, but it seems that the data is that health insurance rates have actually not increased at a rate more than they were before. I believe in fact they may have increased less than in years before the ACA was implemented, although I imagine there was a dip in 2008 like with everything else. It's something like the slowest growth in costs in ~50 years.


Edited, May 26th 2015 10:34pm by Xsarus
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#994 May 26 2015 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Most of those are the same arguments and alternatives that were proposed back in 2009 when the Dems were pushing for the ACA in the first place (minus the whole "repeal the ACA", of course). Actually, I think all of these (except the repeal) were proposed many times back then. And ignored, or rejected as "not being a plan".

You may not like the plan, but please stop insisting that the GOP doesn't have one.


They have one. I believe it was correctly summarized as "Let people die" by the left at the time, but there was a lot of laughing, so I may have misheard the exact punchline. That's the idea, though, right? Market forces as applied to healthcare means more dead people, basically by definition. There are no markets where everyone wins.
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The GOP plan boils down to "deregulate health insurance". Any time the suggestion for something is "allow it across state lines" they're saying "let the state with the lowest bar set the standard for the nation".
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#996 May 27 2015 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
You know, in light of how interesting it is when someone avoids discussing details and instead relies on simple rhetoric.
Well, it is kind of interesting that the guy who has gone pages complaining about details not mattering suddenly insisting that no one wants to discuss details.
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#997 May 28 2015 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:

I asked for a GOP plan. Provide the link or admit there isn't one.
Huh? You couldn't just google it yourself?
A link to a post you made here containing the plan, dunce. Learn to read.

GOP "plan" wrote:
•Fully repeals President Obama's health care law, eliminating billions in taxes and thousands of pages of unworkable regulations and mandates that are driving up health care costs.
•Spurs competition to lower health care costs by allowing Americans to purchase health insurance across state lines and enabling small businesses to pool together and get the same buying power as large corporations.
•Reforms medical malpractice laws in a commonsense way that limits trial lawyer fees and non-economic damages while maintaining strong protections for patients.
•Provides tax reform that allows families and individuals to deduct health care costs, just like companies, leveling the playing field and providing all Americans with a standard deduction for health insurance.
•Expands access to Health Savings Accounts (HSAs), increasing the amount of pre-tax dollars individuals can deposit into portable savings accounts to be used for health care expenses.
•Safeguards individuals with pre-existing conditions from being discriminated against purchasing health insurance by bolstering state-based high risk pools and extending HIPAA guaranteed availability protections.
•Protects the unborn by ensuring no federal funding of abortions.
None of which gets me, Bijou, health insurance.

Also; adding the bit about no federally funded abortions makes it a "GOP Wish List" not a plan.

gbaji wrote:
I'm not even sure how much it helped those who previously didn't have health insurance.
Well, before ACA I couldn't get health insurance AT ALL and I couldn't afford it even if I could get it. (Which, y'know, I couldn't due to PEC's).

Much like millions of other Americans.

Which is sort of the point of the ACA.

You previously mentioned that Romney's Mass. health care which seems to work just fine is "untenable" on a national scale. You have said this on several occasions. I have never seen, though, an explanation as to why it is so very unworkable at a national scale. This seems a good a thread as any to explain that one.

Yes, that's all well and good, but *gbaji's* rates increased, therefore it will destroy America.
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#998 May 29 2015 at 7:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Former House Speaker Dennis Hastert has been indicted on federal charges of evading bank reporting regulations and lying to the FBI. Apparently someone had been extorting him for $3.5mil about some past secret wrong-doings and the bank/feds picked up on the regular large cash withdrawals and asked him about it. He lied and said he was withdrawing for himself and then attempted to make numerous withdrawals just under the reporting limit. No news on what the extortion/blackmail is about.
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#999 May 29 2015 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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Looks like ol' Trumpie has tossed in his hairpiece into the political ring. Now it's a party.
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#1000 May 29 2015 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Former House Speaker Dennis Hastert has been indicted on federal charges of evading bank reporting regulations and lying to the FBI. Apparently someone had been extorting him for $3.5mil about some past secret wrong-doings and the bank/feds picked up on the regular large cash withdrawals and asked him about it. He lied and said he was withdrawing for himself and then attempted to make numerous withdrawals just under the reporting limit. No news on what the extortion/blackmail is about.



He used to be a wrestling coach. Wonder what could possibly have happened?
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#1001 May 29 2015 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Looks like ol' Trumpie has tossed in his hairpiece into the political ring. Now it's a party.



This sums up my feelings about it.
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