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#27 Jun 24 2015 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

I've already seen comments in an article basically equating the confederate flag to the Christian cross and other religious symbols. Over time, can those who want to eliminate such things also influence public opinion about their meaning sufficiently to also create such a massive outrage as well? It just smacks of a total cart before horse approach.


What is it you think "cart before horse' means, exactly? I'm fascinated. Staunchly refusing to remove a symbol of white supremacy for a century until people are murdered, and then primarily as a "hey look over here!" dodge to avoid talking about gun violence is 'the cart' in this analogy? What the **** is the horse??


It means that your starting with your conclusion and working backwards to make it true. You start out believing that the confederate battle flag is racist, but not very many people agree with you, so you keep working in the media, and keep working, and keep working, and keep calling it racist, until enough people adopt that perception. But it's the perception of outsiders who want it to be a symbol of racism, so they have a target to attack. Which makes the whole thing kind of meaningless IMO.

You could declare anything to be a "racist symbol", and if you worked hard enough at convincing people, build up enough ignorant outrage to get it banned. But what did you really accomplish?
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#28 Jun 24 2015 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Driving into work today I saw one guy taking his stand. Had a flag pole in the back of his truck and a flag about half the size of his truck flapping away. Looked silly.

Pretty clear in the end. Who cares if Billy Bob paints a flag on his truck window and plays Waylon Jennings. Or gives his five month old a flag bed sheet. But flying it at equal standing with the American flag and State flags at Government sites and buildings seems out of place.

As for the various companies pulling stock from the shelves, a bit of an over reaction, imo. But, they are free to sell/not sell what they want.
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#29 Jun 24 2015 at 4:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It was flying over a confederate memorial, not over the capitol itself (next to it maybe, not sure)

Hence the term "capital complex" and not "state capitol".
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But let's just tear that down because some nutter happened to wear one (along with a pair of pants) while committing a mass shooting.

Excellent idea. Sad that it took a murderous "nutter" to make people stop and think about it but scant silver linings I suppose.
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Is it a racist symbol though?

Yes. It's the standard for a group of men who were fighting to preserve slavery. It was more or less forgotten until the civil rights movement when it was used as an opposition banner by southern whites who didn't want to see that happen. What else do you think it stands for? What, specifically, about that banner means anything else that doesn't directly tie back into the fight to preserve slavery? Rebellious attitude? Yeah, by people who rebelled against their nation rather than give up slavery. State's rights? Yes, explicitly the right to own humans as property. Nascar and Coca-Cola? I'm pretty sure Lee didn't have much to do with those. That people have seen it as some generic symbol of the South has everything to do with the shameful acceptance of a widespread casual symbol of racism and nothing to do with any actual connection between that flag and the southern states aside from the context of the battle to preserve slavery.

Yes. It's a racist symbol. But, again, you're free to fly all the racist symbols you want. You're free to fly racist flags and insist that they're really just about whatever. No one is stopping you, no scary government monster is coming to eat all your flags, no one is going to steal your crosses -- it just has no place in state government.

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 5:56pm by Jophiel
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#30 Jun 24 2015 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
I honestly do believe that most people who wear/fly/whatever them view it in the latter way and not the former,
Yea, that simply isn't true. It's hard to accept, but you can do an objective self analysis by looking at the crowd you surround yourself with. To think so many racists chose the Confederate flag for any other reason other than the similarities in racial beliefs is absurd.


You think racists use the confederate battle flag as a symbol of their racism? Interesting. Go look up pictures of SWP tattoos or symbols. Notice something. They tend to be Swastikas, or Skulls, or other random things. Very rarely is a confederate flag or symbol involved.

You're engaging in pretty broad association. The Confederate battle flag is a common symbol in the south. Which means people in the south, of all walks, colors, and beliefs, tend to wear/fly it in some fashion. That's the association. Period. Racists in the south may wear it, but that's because they're from the south, not because they're racist. They'd wear it if they weren't racist. Racists in Indianna don't wear the confederate flag. But they're still racists, right? Racists in California might wear flip flops and board shorts. Does that make flip flops and board shorts "symbols of racism"?

No.

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The outrage has always been there. This situation allowed Confederate flag supporters an out without taking too much heat from their base. Notice how some GOP members were vague and/or silent until high profiles came out in the open. Any CEO or Governor know that they will be the next target. For a party who is always fighting for company and state rights, it's quite ironic that the same people complain when they decide to make their own decisions.


I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. So public outrage affects political actions? Wow. News flash! My point is that public outrage based on ignorance is just as effective at this as that based on actual facts. Which makes it a poor methodology for enacting change of any kind. We should be concerned about getting too used to pushing for changes by raising an angry mob, lest some day the angry mob turn its irrational outrage in directions we don't want.

Confederate battle flag? Don't really care. But the process bothers me.

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Gbaji wrote:
I've already seen comments in an article basically equating the confederate flag to the Christian cross and other religious symbols.
The difference is the Bible (more specifically the New Testament) is available for all to interpret. While people may have different interpretations of particular text, it's undeniable that living the life of Christ is peace, not hatred. There's a difference between being offended by something that promotes hatred against you vs not liking a symbol because you disagree with it's explanation of the creation of existence and the way of life.


The history and meaning of the flag in question is also available for all to interpret. Doesn't mean anything in the face of angry ignorance though. And there are plenty enough people who hate the bible and everything it stands for right now, despite likely never having read more than the occasional cherry picked out of context passage. It doesn't matter. If you are taught that the bible is all about hate and oppression, that's what you will believe it's about. Just like if you are taught that the confederate battle flag is all about racism, that's what you will believe it's about.

The difference is only the target. Think really hard about that.
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#31 Jun 24 2015 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
You think racists use the confederate battle flag as a symbol of their racism? Interesting. Go look up pictures of SWP tattoos or symbols. Notice something. They tend to be Swastikas, or Skulls, or other random things. Very rarely is a confederate flag or symbol involved.

Welp, that was easy.
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Racists in Indianna don't wear the confederate flag

Assuming you mean "Indiana" and not, I dunno, "India" -- You've never actually been to Indiana, have you?

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 6:00pm by Jophiel
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#32 Jun 24 2015 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It was flying over a confederate memorial, not over the capitol itself (next to it maybe, not sure)

Hence the term "capital complex" and not "state capitol".


Yes. You intentionally broadened the language to include the actual truth, while retaining the implication that most people will adopt (that it's flying over the capital). Actually, you're more likely repeating language you heard someone else use that did the same thing.

Why not say "flying over a civil war memorial", instead? That would be far more accurate, but it doesn't do so well at generating outrage, does it?

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Is it a racist symbol though?

Yes. It's the standard for a group of men who were fighting to preserve slavery.


It's a standard for soldiers who fought and died for their country. You don't honestly think that the soldiers fighting in the war cared about preserving slavery do you? I get that this is a difficult concept for modern minds to grasp, but back in the day people raised arms in support of their country/state/whatever out of a feeling that it was their duty to do so as citizens. Sadly, far too many people do it only because they get free college tuition today.

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It was more or less forgotten until the civil rights movement when it was used as an opposition banner by southern whites who didn't want to see that happen.


It was used as a symbol of fighting against being told what to do. Everyone I've met from the south has talked about that time period and mainly been annoyed that the perception of the "Yankees" was that southerners could not figure out a solution to segregation on their own and needed the book learned northern city boy to tell them what to do and when to do it. It never specifically was about racism nor segregation. But I can absolutely see how some might view it that way. Association, right?

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What else do you think it stands for? What, specifically, about that banner means anything else that doesn't directly tie back into the fight to preserve slavery? Rebellious attitude? Yeah, by people who rebelled against their nation rather than give up slavery. State's rights? Yes, explicitly the right to own humans as property.


It's interesting how often you express this "all or nothing" mentality. It's possible to embrace one part of something without embracing all of it. One can oppose bad things going on around them without condemning everything else going on around them as well. One can stand up for the concept of states rights, even if the specific action at hand isn't something they agree with. You have to realize that the "worst case" is always the case that will be brought against something. No one says "that mild mannered hairdresser has a confederate battle flag over her station, so we must ban it!". It's "that racist who killed a bunch of people wore a confederate battle flag sometimes, so we must ban it!".

That's a problem for all the hairdressers, isn't it?

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Nascar and coca-Cola? I'm pretty sure Lee didn't have much to do with those. That people have seen it as some generic symbol of the South has everything to do with the shameful acceptance of a widespread casual symbol of racism and nothing to do with any actual connection between that flag and the southern states aside from the context of the battle to preserve slavery.


No. I'd say that they're able to see beyond the very narrow minded viewpoint that you are espousing and view it as a symbol of individualism and opposition to outside pressure to conform. And yes, sometimes this may take the form of outsiders pressuring for valid social changes, but it can come in many other forms as well. The difference, as I just pointed out, is that no one on the outside makes those associations. You're looking too hard at the one cases that supports your position and ignoring all the cases that don't.

And I view that as a problem because it can be used to attack just about anything.

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Yes. It's a racist symbol. ... it just has no place in state government.


Because you think it's a racist symbol. And that makes it so, right? Lol!
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#33 Jun 24 2015 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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Ya, the swastika's not about antisemitism...
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#34 Jun 24 2015 at 5:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Yes. You intentionally broadened the language to include the actual truth, while retaining the implication that most people will adopt (that it's flying over the capital).

No, I used the correct terminology. It's not a Civil War Memorial somewhere off Highway 122 back past the old sawmill -- it's on the government complex that includes its state government buildings.

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It's a standard for soldiers who fought and died for their country.

Assuming you mean the Confederate States of America; their dying for their country was to preserve the right to own people as property.
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It was used as a symbol of fighting against being told what to do.

"What to do" in this instance being "Give equal rights to black people". Funny how this particular instance of "being told what to do" required its own flag and that flag just happened to be one used in the war to preserve slavery. And coincidentally, this was regarding the topic of giving rights to blacks.

No, no, Gbaji... not racist at all Smiley: oyvey
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#35 Jun 24 2015 at 5:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's the classy fellows who popularized the use of the stars & bars during the civil rights movement. As you can see, they also look like a bunch of guys deeply interested in drafting their own solution to segregation.
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#36 Jun 24 2015 at 5:25 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You think racists use the confederate battle flag as a symbol of their racism? Interesting. Go look up pictures of SWP tattoos or symbols. Notice something. They tend to be Swastikas, or Skulls, or other random things. Very rarely is a confederate flag or symbol involved.

Welp, that was easy.


And? He's from the south. Flying the flag is like wearing pants.

So this guy is a racist?

And these guys are racists

People in the south use the flag as a symbol. Yes, that means that racists do too. But that does not make the symbol itself racist. I get that this is hard for some people to comprehend.



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Racists in Indianna don't wear the confederate flag

Assuming you mean "Indiana" and not, I dunno, "India" -- You've never actually been to Indiana, have you?


I know that it's been home to one of the largest KKK branches and has a lot of racists. Probably don't fly a confederate flag though. Reasonably sure you can find some racists in states like Montana, but they probably don't use the confederate flag as a symbol either.

I'm quite certain that the flag is used in association with racism far more often by those opposed to the flag than those who support it. But hey, I guess if you just have enough ignorant people, then it becomes truth, right? Way to be on the side of ignorance there Joph.

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 4:27pm by gbaji
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#37 Jun 24 2015 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I know that it's been home to one of the largest KKK branches and has a lot of racists. Probably don't fly a confederate flag though.

As I said: you've never been to Indiana, have you?

You're statement was that white supremacists don't use the Confederate flag as a symbol; linking random pictures and saying "What about THIS GUY?!?!?!" doesn't answer that.

Yeah, those white supremacists only use the swastika and stuff. Well, except when they're using both of them.

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 6:34pm by Jophiel
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#38 Jun 24 2015 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:


Should be noted that guy is actually with the Mississippi State flag, not specifically the Confederate flag.
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#39 Jun 24 2015 at 5:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
Should be noted that guy is actually with the Mississippi State flag, not specifically the Confederate flag.

Smiley: laugh

Shades of Odinga.
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#40 Jun 24 2015 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Should be noted that guy is actually with the Mississippi State flag, not specifically the Confederate flag.

Smiley: laugh

Shades of Odinga.


Well, I don't get it...

Was just an observation. Not sure who the guy is, I guess gbaji just googled "Black" and "Confederate" and grabbed any image he could find that showed a black person in the same frame as the confederate flag as evidence that it can't possibly be racist.
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#41 Jun 24 2015 at 5:41 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:

You think racists use the confederate battle flag as a symbol of their racism? Interesting. Go look up pictures of SWP tattoos or symbols. Notice something. They tend to be Swastikas, or Skulls, or other random things. Very rarely is a confederate flag or symbol involved.

You're engaging in pretty broad association. The Confederate battle flag is a common symbol in the south. Which means people in the south, of all walks, colors, and beliefs, tend to wear/fly it in some fashion. That's the association. Period. Racists in the south may wear it, but that's because they're from the south, not because they're racist. They'd wear it if they weren't racist. Racists in Indianna don't wear the confederate flag. But they're still racists, right? Racists in California might wear flip flops and board shorts. Does that make flip flops and board shorts "symbols of racism"?

No.
The fact that it remains mostly in the South is kind of the point, hence the civil war. The rest of the country was ready to move on. The South was not and maintaining the flag is a symbol of the South still not wanting to move forward.

Gbaji wrote:
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. So public outrage affects political actions? Wow. News flash! My point is that public outrage based on ignorance is just as effective at this as that based on actual facts. Which makes it a poor methodology for enacting change of any kind. We should be concerned about getting too used to pushing for changes by raising an angry mob, lest some day the angry mob turn its irrational outrage in directions we don't want.

Confederate battle flag? Don't really care. But the process bothers me.
Obviously you do care as the process is as democratic as you can get. Primary supporters of the flag decided it was time to move forward and was joined with the opposition to put a vote to remove the flag. What part of that process don't you like?

Gbaji wrote:
The history and meaning of the flag in question is also available for all to interpret. Doesn't mean anything in the face of angry ignorance though. And there are plenty enough people who hate the bible and everything it stands for right now, despite likely never having read more than the occasional cherry picked out of context passage. It doesn't matter. If you are taught that the bible is all about hate and oppression, that's what you will believe it's about. Just like if you are taught that the confederate battle flag is all about racism, that's what you will believe it's about.

The difference is only the target. Think really hard about that.
While there might be interpretations of the flag, there is no interpretation of what the Confederacy stood for, which is symbolized in the Confederate battle flag. Are you implying that you support the Confederacy with their beliefs and practices, even in today's society? Talk about cherry picking. You can't say that the flag isn't racist, but then neglect all of the racism involved.

#42 Jun 24 2015 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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狗爸几 是 一 很 种族主义者 人.

Anyone who objects to my obnoxious use of Chinese is racist, too. That's just a fact.

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 7:46pm by Kavekkk
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#43 Jun 24 2015 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Yes. You intentionally broadened the language to include the actual truth, while retaining the implication that most people will adopt (that it's flying over the capital).

No, I used the correct terminology. It's not a Civil War Memorial somewhere off Highway 122 back past the old sawmill -- it's on the government complex that includes its state government buildings.


Uh huh. If the civil war memorial was across town, but still on a plot of land owned and operated by the state government (cause it's a state memorial), would you be ok with it? I'm assuming, given your explanation as to why and where it shouldn't fly (which you've repeated twice), you would be just as outraged.

The only relevance to where it is specifically located, is that by including the words "capital complex", you know that most people will assume it's flying over the capitol building. If it were across town, you'd use a term like "over a government site", or "flown by the state government", so as to allow anyone reading what you wrote to fill in the blanks and make their own assumptions. You'd never say "flying over a civil war memorial to honor the soldiers who died". Ever. Well, you might now just to say "see, I can", but you'd never do so when writing it yourself. And neither would anyone in the media "on your side".

Tell you what. Let's do a test. Go watch every news show you can tonight and see how many times the flag is referenced. See how many times it's mentioned that it's flying over a memorial (or was, as the case may be), and contrast to how many times it's referenced as part of the capital complex, or some other broad term. I'm guessing that no one on CNN, MSNBC, NBC, CBS, or ABC will *ever* mention the existence of a memorial. But hey! Maybe someone out there will be honest. I wouldn't hold my breath.

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It's a standard for soldiers who fought and died for their country.

Assuming you mean the Confederate States of America; their dying for their country was to preserve the right to own people as property.


Again, that's not why they fought and died. But then, you probably think that soldiers fought and died in Iraq in order to find WMDs, so that sort of narrow mindedness does appear to be a common theme. Soldiers fight and die out of duty for country. Finding something negative about the country or its actions and then proclaiming that this is why they died and thus should not be honored is incredibly mean spirited.

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 4:47pm by gbaji
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#44 Jun 24 2015 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
But then, you probably think that soldiers fought and died in Iraq in order to find WMDs


No, Oil. Duh. Smiley: oyvey
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#45 Jun 24 2015 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
gbaji wrote:


Should be noted that guy is actually with the Mississippi State flag, not specifically the Confederate flag.


He's also a member of the Sons of Confederacy, and an outspoken critic of the oft repeated assumption that secession was all about slavery and other re-writings of history to fit a modern narrative. Oh. And he was the head of an NAACP chapter, until I guess they decided that he wasn't conforming to modern assumptions about what black people must believe. Rebel yell, indeed.

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 4:50pm by gbaji
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#46 Jun 24 2015 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekkk wrote:
狗爸几 是 一 很 种族主义者 人.

Anyone who objects to my obnoxious use of Chinese is racist, too. That's just a fact.

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 7:46pm by Kavekkk


种族主义者

Racist is a very long word in Chinese. Breaking it down, Google says it's:

Seed
Race
The Lord
Righteousness
Person
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#47 Jun 24 2015 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Interesting page I ran across.
As interesting as this one?

How many people took your survey? Was the survey just made on the original site or was it posted in another forum? Don't you think a two year old survey isn't necessarily as up to date as the current conversation needs it to be? Is it interesting because it says what you want it to say, so long as you don't ask any actual questions? For someone who spent a year complaining about the validity of polls, don't you find it strange you're basing an entire point on the very same thing? Kind of necessary details here.
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#48 Jun 24 2015 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
And he was the head of an NAACP chapter


Well, so was a white woman pretending to be black. Smiley: smile

(It's almost like one off examples don't mean much in the grand scheme of things).
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#49 Jun 24 2015 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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Would you be offended if Germany flew the Swastika or the SS flag by their WW2 memorials? If the Israeli ambassador objected, would you shout him down?

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 7:58pm by Kavekkk
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#50 Jun 24 2015 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Uh huh. If the civil war memorial was across town, but still on a plot of land owned and operated by the state government (cause it's a state memorial), would you be ok with it? I'm assuming, given your explanation as to why and where it shouldn't fly (which you've repeated twice), you would be just as outraged.

I said repeatedly that I didn't think it should be flown in any capacity by the state government. That's neither here nor there towards the fact that it was flown at the state's capital complex. You can throw a little fit about that if this is the point you're at. Regardless, it was flown at the state's capital complex.
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Again, that's not why they fought and died.

That is exactly why they fought and died. Without the war to preserve slavery, they would not have been fighting or dying. We fought in the WWII western theater to stop and turn back the German advance through Europe. Regardless of any specific guy's reason for putting on a uniform (drafted, joined to honor America, joined because he was poor, joined because he figured guys in uniform get a lot of French tail, etc) he was there and dying in the service of stopping and turning back the German advance across Europe. Regardless of any specific guy's reason for putting on a Confederate uniform and fighting the Union, he was ultimately doing so in the name of preserving slavery.
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#51 Jun 24 2015 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shades of Odinga.
Well, I don't get it...

You probably weren't here for it and I think the thread got nuked in one of the umpteen Varus purges. Gbaji was all atwitter back during the 2008 election that he read in a blog that Obama was hanging out with a Kenyan politician named Odinga and endorsing him. His amazing evidence of this was a photo that Gbaji claimed was Obama giving a speech supporting Odinga with Odinga at his side.

The photo was cropped, however, to hide the fact that Obama was actually giving a speech at an AIDS clinic about the importance of getting tested for the disease. I was just amused that Gbaji was using a photo now that was framed in a way that made it look at a casual glance like the guy was holding a Confederate flag rather than the Confederate flag portion of the Mississippi state flag.

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 7:04pm by Jophiel
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