Politicians say the darndest thingsFollow

Why don't you tell me then? I know what kind of cite you're demanding, but the fact is that we don't know those numbers. We don't even know for sure how many people cross illegally, because... you know, they're crossing illegally. What we do know is that the cartels have taken over the business of illegal border crossing. The day's of people sneaking across by themselves, or hiring some small time coyote are gone.



And? You're demanding numbers. My argument doesn't rest on that. This article supports exactly what I'm saying. The fact that no one can tell you exactly how many people are stuck in this terrible situation doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of people stuck in this terrible situation. I guess I just don't understand this stubborn need to deny that this is happening. How many articles do I have to link to saying "this is happening" for you to get your head out of the ground?



A cite that isn't necessary for me to make my point. You're intentionally setting the bar super high here Joph. For what? So you can continue to smugly oppose conservative attempts at immigration reform? So you can continue to believe that it's all just racist conservatives who hate brown skinned people? You're willing to just flat out ignore human misery because it doesn't fit nicely into your own political narrative? Seriously?

But it's us conservatives who are terrible human beings who don't care about anyone. Right.

While we are on it, he was impeached AND acquitted, obviously. Surely that is what you meant to say, you weren't cherry picking information were yo...Oh, Oh, ICWUTUDIDTHAR!

Who said the top of your head? I don't want any numbers off the top of your head. Your credibility is zero, hence the request for a cite. If I wanted to listen to someone just make shit up off the top of their head, I'd ask my pre-schooler to tell me a story. But you've been arguing this for over a day now; certainly time enough to come up with some real figures.

Awesome. Based on....?

Not my claim to answer. You made this claim, you've stuck by it, it's your job to defend it. Or to admit that you can't, I guess.

I'm sensing a theme here: Spend a couple paragraphs saying that the data doesn't exist or doesn't matter then top it off with an emotionally-laden appeal that we must do it your way or else be monsters.

Do you actually know people that that works with?

Edited, Sep 9th 2015 11:45pm by Jophiel

Do you really need me to hold your hand on this? Estimates for the number of illegal crossings say about 300k/year. If even 80% of them require assistance from a large smuggling operation (and that would be a low estimate), that gives is somewhere around 240k/year who have to pay to those operations for the service of illegally entering the country. You're demanding exact figures, but no one has them. I could link a half dozen different sites presenting similar (but not exact) numbers. Feel free to look up stuff for yourself if you want. It's just odd that you somehow think the numbers are low enough not to matter. How many people do you think cross the southern border illegally each year?



Simple math? Estimation. Again, it's hard to provide solid data on this because it's scatted across multiple sources, each with their own focus on the issue. How many cross each year (about 300k). What percentage of those are smuggled across by some form of cartel that expects payment for the act (probably close to 100%). How much do they charge for the service? Estimates vary, but this site says about $4k for someone crossing by land from Mexico. This does not cover the cost for a false identity, housing when they arrive, and a host of other things a new arrival will need in order to earn a living. How long does it take for an illegal laborer to pay off that debt? We can only speculate. Hence, it's probably hundreds of thousands at any given time (people who have crossed recently), and could be as many as a few million depending on how long it takes to pay their debt.




What claim? I didn't claim it was a specific number. I said it's a problem that should be addressed and simply looking the other way or viewing it as a "US against the undocumented" isn't helpful. You're the one who keeps demanding numbers. Which suggests that you have some number in mind at which this would be a problem sufficient for you to care about. So yeah, why don't you tell me what number of people in this state is sufficient for you?




I started this whole thing, not by talking about numbers, but about what happens to undocumented immigrants who cross the border from Mexico into the US. My entire point was that the image of someone just sneaking across and then happily seeking out work in the land of the free, so we should just let them do that because no one's getting hurt by this, is not the reality of the situation. The reality is that border crossings are controlled by large organized criminal cartels. The reality is that they charge money for those crossings, far far more than the small time coyotes of decades ago. And the reality is that they treat their cargo as just that: cargo. Something to profit off. If holding you hostage and ransoming you makes them more money, they do that. If using you to mule drugs makes them more money, they'll do that to. If you are more valuable as bait to help them get other things (or people) across, they will do that. This is about *how* the border crossing process has changed. It affects everyone attempting to cross illegally to some degree. The number affected is the number who are crossing illegally. I'm not sure how many different ways I have to say that to get it to sink in.

You're the one hiding behind a demand for numbers to defend your support for a political position on immigration that basically consists of "pretend it's not a problem and it'll go away". Um... It's not going away.




Liberals, usually.

Edited, Sep 9th 2015 10:41pm by gbaji

Based on?

You claimed that this was the condition of everyone entering the country these days. You've been remarkably unable to back this up except in vague senses and using emotional phrases in lieu of data.

Ah, the final refuge of the guy with no cite

That site also says that the $4k provides a benefit for the migrant, not that they spend a life of eternal bondage on account of it.

And there's the appeal to emotion again. Man, this is playbook stuff.

I must be a remarkable specimen to see your half-assed bullshitting for what it is then

It's weird, in a pathological sort of way, how Gbaji keeps insisting that Democrats refuse to address immigration. The Senate passed a comprehensive immigration bill in 2013 which the GOP House leadership then refused to bring to a vote. Then, in 2014, Boehner promised to tackle the issue, even mocking his own party for saying it was too hard... but did nothing, caving to Republican push back. Hell, Bush, to his credit, tried to pass a comprehensive bill back in 2007 but was blocked by his own party who unanimously voted against the bill on its final try.

I don't know. Maybe this new line of inanity from Gbaji, by insisting that no one cares about immigrants but him, is some sort of delusional escape from what's actually happening. The Senate bill would have increased border security and opening paths to a valid immigration status would be immeasurably helpful for people trapped in bad situations who can't seek help for risk of deportation and reprisal. We also already have laws about labor abuse, human trafficking, etc but if someone wants to add more enforcement (i.e. money) to those, have at it. Hell, simply increasing security without additional reforms would make Gbaji's cause even worse. More risk means more money so now people are on the hook for $10k to cross instead of $4k. That's supposed to be an improvement?

All of that is ignoring his whole "This is totally happening to everyone but I don't have numbers because no one has numbers but I don't need numbers because it's just obvious! Wake up, Sheeple, you're being naive!" misconceptions about the process as a whole.

Edited, Sep 11th 2015 7:55am by Jophiel

How do you expect anyone to know "Hillary.clinton@HRC.com" (or alike) was a personal email >.>

I find the inconsistency in people (on both sides of the political spectrum) funny when comparing this story to Snowden.

Living in San Diego is all the evidence he needs.

Yeah, yeah -- Gbaji didn't like the bill. Who cares? Point is, it was a bill. A bill which did pass with bipartisan support. Which is, you know, about a million times more than the GOP has produced. But you keep on crying about how only the GOP cares and Democrats refuse to do anything and whatever else makes you feel better than facing the truth.

This explains the GOP's complete inability to do anything, I guess. Oh, wait! I bet they could pass a House bill to build a giant wall made out of electric alligators! I mean... that's "real reform", right?

I love when you say this. It's basically just an admission of "I don't have any evidence supporting my arguments but let's pretend that they both have equal merit." Hey, you say cows eat grass, I say cows eat meat... let's just agree to disagree and move on!

No, that IS the plan. Hence the refusal to create or vote on a comprehensive bill and try to pass it piecemeal starting with a giant wall of electric alligators and then the unfounded promise to then consider other stuff. And you were just talking about recognizing bait and switch tactics? Are you honestly this stupid?

Gee, makes you wonder why the Republicans have blocked every effort at a comprehensive bill then, huh? The sad thing is, you probably actually believe that the GOP wants this despite all evidence to the contrary.

Edited, Sep 14th 2015 11:25pm by Jophiel

I get that this is the element that creates problems for the left (and some on the right, to be fair). But, as easy as it is to rhetoric this into something "evil", the simple fact is that "low paying" is necessary for this to work. That's frankly the primary problem with liberal solutions, they want to open the doors to low skill immigrants, but then insist on paying them their version of a "working wage" (or at least using them as yet more ammunition to fight for such silliness). Again, more rhetoric. Wages are relative. If you raise the wages for low and non-skilled workers, all other wages will go up, inflation will set in, and you'll eliminate the gains you thought (pretended really, since no one actually believes that this would work any other way) you'd get.

Unpopular as this may seem at first glance, in order to get all of those who are currently choosing to cross the southern border illegally to do so legally, you must include the ability for employers to pay them less than the current minimum wage. That doesn't mean that all *must* be paid less than minimum (just as not all undocumented aliens are working under the table for $50/day right now). But this sort of pay scale must be allowed. Why you say? Because right now, for many undocumented aliens (the poorest and with the least resources, and therefore the most likely to be stuck in the kinds of debt situations I spoke of earlier), the only way their labor can compete against existing labor sources in the US is if they can offer their labor for less than that which must be paid to a "legal" worker.

The demand for their labor is due to this fact. Fair or not, that is the case right now. Any solution which does not duplicate this (but in a legal documented manner) will fail because if the consequence of documentation is an inability to work under the table for less than what others must be paid (ie: giving them a competitive advantage in the labor market), they wont chose to do this. And, if our guest worker visa has some sort of "must have verifiable work" requirement (which it also must), then we're back to folks entering and then having to leave, only to likely enter illegally next time so they can actually get work. Sounds silly, especially to those who don't live near the border, but that is the actual reality of things. I think sometimes people lose sight of the fact that the people I'm talking about are currently working for wages in their countries of origin that we'd consider insanely low. Being able to earn say $5/hour is a massive economic benefit to them. More importantly, it gets their foot in the door, allowing for future mobility and higher pay later, which they currently can do, but it's much much harder.

So yeah, we have to be "evil" about this. If you've defined evil as "letting people in gross poverty earn 70% of our minimum wage here in the US". I'll take that evil every day. And if along the way, it solves our border problem, it's well worth it. And heaven forbid that this actually benefits the people we're being "evil" to, by massively improving their life condition. It's almost like this "evil" benefits pretty much everyone. The *only* drawback is that this could have an impact on low skill entry level labor among US citizens. But if you limited this to a smallish number of fields where existing undocumented aliens are currently working anyway (but in which few entry level US folks are), you can minimize this effect. So no fry-o-later jobs being lost, cutting into teenagers mall money, but we can certainly allow this for low skill construction, repair, agriculture, and landscaping type jobs.

Obviously, such a solution does require refinement. But yeah, you do have to get past the hangup over "OMG! We're going to pay them less than we pay other people!!!". Yes. We are. Just as we are right now. Only now we're doing it legally, so they don't have to go into hock with a cartel for the privilege of working those low wages and don't have to live in constant fear of ICE leading them to essentially live hidden lives away from the rest of the society around them. I just don't think most people who live far away from the border realize what an impact this has. It's just like there are two societies here. One is hidden, but if you look, you can see it. And it's not pretty. You wonder, "Where do all those guys hanging around waiting for work go at night? What do they do to socialize? What about their families?". They just kinda disappear. It's pretty unlikely that they're all just piling into their cars and driving home. I think most people would be shocked how many camps there are, hidden just out of sight. No one looks at them, but they are there. It's reminiscent of past cultures with their "unclean" class. Scary. And not a good status quo. For the lucky, it's crowded apartments rented with false IDs (or by someone they know who has legal credentials), hoping that no one notices them. But in all cases, we're talking about a class that is habitually victimized because they have nearly zero recourse. And those who victimize them (often other illegals) know this. It's like freaking Lord of the Flies. Ok. Not quite that bad, but not so good either.


This is the part that I get bothered by. It's the part that the left (and to be fair, many on the right as well), just ignores. For the right, it's about law enforcement. But for the left? I don't know. I honestly suspect that there's some actual desire by some to perpetuate this state, just so they can have more victims for us to feel sorry about. But they never seem to want to actually fix it. While the right is far from perfect on this issue, they at least propose ideas (even unpopular ones) that can solve the problem. The left? Every idea I've heard from the left seems almost designed (whether through intention or ignorance) to make the problems worse. I actually watched a discussion about illegal immigration a few years back and one of the strongest arguments from the liberals at the table (which I've heard repeated many times) is that if we just raised the working wage to say $18/hour, this would make low paying jobs more attractive to US/legal workers, and thus force the illegal out of the market. A stunning example of absolute economic idiocy, but there you have it. That was the "solution" to the problem. Not to solve it, but to pivot to another pet social position that has nothing at all to do with immigration, and then pretend it'll help with our immigration problems. So basically just using the issue to push another agenda. Wow! Fantastic job there liberals.

Oh. And btw, all raising the minimum wage would do is create *more* demand for illegal labor wiling and able to work for less, and more incentive for illegal labor to fill that demand. It would massively increase the problem of low skill undocumented labor, not decrease it. But let's not mix common economic sense into the issue when there's an agenda to be pushed!

Edited, Sep 15th 2015 2:46pm by gbaji

That may be the most evil argument for good I can remember reading.