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#1 Sep 07 2015 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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So, I'm laboring...

Olde LaboUr

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Bored at work...obviously!

Someone fax me some Bar-B-Q, please.Smiley: drool
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#2 Sep 07 2015 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
So, I'm laboring...

Olde LaboUr

Canuckian LaboUr

80's Labor

Bored at work...obviously!

Someone fax me some Bar-B-Q, please.Smiley: drool


I am catching up on my newsfeed and I bumped into this. I don't really want to go to work tomorrow. Bah.

So anyway. Kim Davis. In deference to Trappin's sensibilities I am stating that I believe that her religious rights end where my begin. Why is this such a big deal? Did she already get an offer from the right wing network? And why is the left so bent on using ad hominems against her where simple 'do your job' should do?

Ok, back to food.
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#3 Sep 07 2015 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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angrymnk wrote:
So anyway. Kim Davis. In deference to Trappin's sensibilities I am stating that I believe that her religious rights end where my begin.
In the context of performing a government job, her religious rights are totally irrelevant.


angrymnk wrote:
And why is the left so bent on using ad hominems against her where simple 'do your job' should do?
If it walk and talks like a cnut, people will call it a cnut?


EDIT: For clarity


Edited, Sep 7th 2015 4:22pm by Bijou
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#4 Sep 07 2015 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I haven't seen that many ad hominem attacks on her. Well, the usual comments on her looks, which is par for the course when a woman is in the news.

Even the guys who were denied a marriage license for weeks have been fairly tempered in their response. They didn't want to see her go to jail; they just wanted her to do her job.

She should resign. She can always get a job in Texas.
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#5 Sep 07 2015 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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For Labor Day, I cooked a pork roast because we may or may not have been having company (we didn't), grilled a whole package of chicken thighs for my mom (and lost half of the skins, her favorite parts) and a steak for my wife (who doesn't like pork or chicken). Then sliced the watermelon.

I'm glad I took this week off of work.
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#6 Sep 07 2015 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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And I will absolutely give her shit for her stance on marriage. You want to stand for sanctity of marriage? Nuke Nevada. That takes care of Vegas weddings and Reno divorces right there.
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#7 Sep 08 2015 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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Had a picnic in the park on Monday. Over the weekend we decided the little one should pick up an instrument to keep her distracted from tv and video games and stuff, so we sat down and listened to music until she found a sound she liked. Unfortunately that sound was that of a violin, which on one hand hey, I can actually teach her and save some money and spend time with her. On the other hand, of all instruments in existence, the violin is also the worst sounding in the hands of someone first learning it. It's like if abortions were done by wheat threshers and it needed a soundtrack.
Samira wrote:
They didn't want to see her go to jail; they just wanted her to do her job.
Well, she'll certainly be doing a job now.
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#8 Sep 08 2015 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
They didn't want to see her go to jail; they just wanted her to do her job.
I've a feeling there were some on the other side of the issue that did want to see her go to jail.

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#9 Sep 08 2015 at 10:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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On the other hand, of all instruments in existence, the violin is also the worst sounding in the hands of someone first learning it. It's like if abortions were done by wheat threshers and it needed a soundtrack.


It could be worse, it could be the ukelele, which sounds like **** even if you can play it.
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#10 Sep 08 2015 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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On the other hand, of all instruments in existence, the violin is also the worst sounding in the hands of someone first learning it. It's like if abortions were done by wheat threshers and it needed a soundtrack.


When my youngest came home with a violin from school this is what I expected to hear. Turn's out she had a ear for music and from the start she sounded good. She gave up the violin, when she got very depress. Years later, we took my great aunt's violin to be restrung and gave it to her for Christmas. She back to playing it, but I haven't heard her play since she lives 3 states away.
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#11 Sep 08 2015 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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As for Labor day. My oldest daughter had to work at the Maryland Renaissance Faire and it was her day to have her kids, so she ask me and Jonwin if we could watch them, while at the Faire. Oldest (13) was able to wander around the Faire on his own, but I had to stay with his sister (10), who wanted to window shop. It was the first time I went to the Faire without spending any money, not even on a ear of corn. Daughter paid for my ticket and gave her picky daughter money for lunch, since she didn't want the p&j sandwich her father made for her.

Of everything we looked at, grand daughter decided she wants a leather crown made by a couple who her aunt (my middle daughter) works for as a bubble fairy. If it doesn't sell before the end of the Faire season, I wouldn't be surprise if she gets it for Christmas.
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In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

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#12 Sep 08 2015 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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cynyck wrote:
Samira wrote:
They didn't want to see her go to jail; they just wanted her to do her job.
I've a feeling there were some on the other side of the issue that did want to see her go to jail.



Sure, you can find people who want that, if you look for them. You can find nutjobs of any stripe you want. I was talking about the people who have reason to care, like the guys who want to get married and those of us who understand that making her a martyr is not helping.

Man, I miss Jon Stewart.
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#13 Sep 08 2015 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Man, I miss Jon Stewart.
He's using his time off well.

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#14 Sep 08 2015 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Sure, you can find people who want that, if you look for them. You can find nutjobs of any stripe you want. I was talking about the people who have reason to care, like the guys who want to get married and those of us who understand that making her a martyr is not helping.


To be honest, I don't think it really matters. This woman could be flayed alive on public television by a couple of guys in fairy outfits and it wouldn't change anything much.
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#15 Sep 08 2015 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Go on.....
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#16 Sep 08 2015 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, Samira, I tried to finish watching the wire, but I couldn't do it. Watching McNulty's self destructive pattern play out in all its grim predictability was just too much for me. I got to the bit where he was drinking and fiddling with all the corpses and I had to throw in the towel.

(This is a continuation of a conversation we had about six months ago, which of course you and everyone remembers for how incredibly important it was.)
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#17 Sep 08 2015 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I do remember it, actually! I would argue that it's totally worth sticking with it, but you gave it a fair shot, I have to say.

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#18 Sep 08 2015 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekkk wrote:
Samira wrote:
Sure, you can find people who want that, if you look for them. You can find nutjobs of any stripe you want. I was talking about the people who have reason to care, like the guys who want to get married and those of us who understand that making her a martyr is not helping.


To be honest, I don't think it really matters. This woman could be flayed alive on public television by a couple of guys in fairy outfits and it wouldn't change anything much.


It does to those who see this as a religious persecution issue. It's one thing to have a right to do something, it's quite another thing to go out of your way to do that thing in a way designed to maximize the degree to which you upset others. I'm reasonably certain that since this whole thing started, gay couples have been deliberately flocking to that small town courthouse to get their marriage licenses instead of going to somewhere closer. At the point you are going out of your way to annoy someone else whilst making your point, you go past merely exercising your rights, to being a bunch of jerks.

Remember, there's a lot of religious folks who see this as part of a larger process to attack their religion. That's the angle they see. So Samira's point of treading lightly isn't a bad suggestion.
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#19 Sep 08 2015 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm reasonably certain that since this whole thing started, *** couples have been deliberately flocking to that small town courthouse to get their marriage licenses instead of going to somewhere closer.

More money for Rowan County. Provided the county clerk is doing their job, I fail to see the problem.

She's being harassed by being expected to do her job? Seriously?
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#20 Sep 08 2015 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Kavekkk wrote:
Samira wrote:
Sure, you can find people who want that, if you look for them. You can find nutjobs of any stripe you want. I was talking about the people who have reason to care, like the guys who want to get married and those of us who understand that making her a martyr is not helping.


To be honest, I don't think it really matters. This woman could be flayed alive on public television by a couple of guys in fairy outfits and it wouldn't change anything much.


It does to those who see this as a religious persecution issue. It's one thing to have a right to do something, it's quite another thing to go out of your way to do that thing in a way designed to maximize the degree to which you upset others. I'm reasonably certain that since this whole thing started, *** couples have been deliberately flocking to that small town courthouse to get their marriage licenses instead of going to somewhere closer. At the point you are going out of your way to annoy someone else whilst making your point, you go past merely exercising your rights, to being a bunch of jerks.

Remember, there's a lot of religious folks who see this as part of a larger process to attack their religion. That's the angle they see. So Samira's point of treading lightly isn't a bad suggestion.


I do not accept that argument at ******* all. I do not accept that you have rights, but you should not annoy others with them. Rights are not rights if you cannot, and should not exercise them for fear of annoying people.
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#21 Sep 08 2015 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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It does to those who see this as a religious persecution issue


Sure, it matters to them, but they don't matter, so it balances out.

People in the Congo probably have opinions about gay marriage, but who cares?
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#22 Sep 08 2015 at 5:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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This person is not performing the government duties she is being paid to perform. She should either choose to perform those duties or cease her employment. She is free to adhere to her religious beliefs but not to fail to the governmental duties entrusted to her.

What if a conscientious objector worked at a DMV, and refused drivers licenses to people who had served in the military? They would be fired, and rightly so.
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#23 Sep 08 2015 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
This person is not performing the government duties she is being paid to perform. She should either choose to perform those duties or cease her employment. She is free to adhere to her religious beliefs but not to fail to the governmental duties entrusted to her.

What if a conscientious objector worked at a DMV, and refused drivers licenses to people who had served in the military? They would be fired, and rightly so.
What Joph said.
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#24 Sep 08 2015 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
This person is not performing the government duties she is being paid to perform. She should either choose to perform those duties or cease her employment. She is free to adhere to her religious beliefs but not to fail to the governmental duties entrusted to her.


Her religious beliefs and her employment were not in conflict when she was originally hired. There is an segment (a growing segment btw) of religious people who believe that secularists are intentionally forcing government services to engage in activities in violation of specific religious beliefs with the intent of driving those people out of government service (or even just "public service"). They see recent changes that have pushed the Catholic Church out of the business of adoption as an example of this (can't be a licensed adoption agency if you wont place children with gay couples). Birth control becomes another issue, especially as we move to greater government regulation of health care. If all health care providers are required to provide birth control as a standard part of health insurance, and all people must be covered, then no one who objects to the use of birth control can be employed, not just in the government, but in any job that dispenses medicine (we've had this topic discussed on this forum). This goes double for the issue of abortion care btw, and is why that issue became (and still is) such a big deal.

There are already grumblings that the SCOTUS ruling could be interpreted as requiring anyone licensed to perform marriages to perform gay marriages as well. And while they got a "well, we would never do that to a priest/minister" in response to their concerns, this is yet another case of "rule by exception". The law as written/ruled does not technically allow for exception. If a gay couple can intentionally go out of their way to show up at the desk of a county clerk who has a religious objection to providing a marriage license to a gay couple, why not intentionally go out of their way to demand that a specific priest perform their wedding? Isn't it discrimination if the priest says no? If they sued that priest, would they win? Can you honestly say what the outcome would be?

Balancing the right of a religious person to practice their faith against such issues is not as simple as "they just have to do it or quit". Precisely because it would be terrifically easy to keep adding things to the job requirements that you know they oppose so as to get them all to leave. Which dovetails directly into religious persecution. Being obvious about the fact that this is about intentionally putting religious people into that position absolutely feeds the sense of persecution (and, in fact, becomes de-facto persecution).

Quote:
What if a conscientious objector worked at a DMV, and refused drivers licenses to people who had served in the military? They would be fired, and rightly so.


Bad example, since there's no correlation between driving and serving in the military. What if tomorrow the Supreme Court ruled that blind people can't be denied the right to a drivers license, and a DMV worker, who steadfastly believes that blind people shouldn't drive, refuses to hand out licenses to them? Perhaps said worker is perfectly fine with providing alternative forms of official state ID for people who are blind or otherwise incapable of operating a motor vehicle, but the courts ruled for some reason that this was "separate but equal" and therefore in violation of the Constitution. Absurd? Absolutely, but some of us view granting marriage licenses to gay couples in about the same way. I can't speak for this woman's reasons, but my point is that she entered into employment under a specific understanding of the duties involved, and those duties have changed in ways that directly violate her beliefs.

It's not as simple as saying she must comply or quit. I happen to agree that she's not going to win this one, but I also see that her action is going to be seen by a lot of people as yet another warning sign of a movement aimed not so much at fighting for the rights of people, but directly against their own rights. And to be honest, the mocking and attacking of her faith doesn't help but amplify that perception.
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#25 Sep 08 2015 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Remember, there's a lot of religious folks who see this as part of a larger process to attack their religion.
Mark 10:2 - 9 wrote:
2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 "What did Moses command you?" he replied. 4 They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away." 5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. 6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,[b] 8 and the two will become one flesh.’[c] So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
Luke 16:18 wrote:
18 Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
1 Corinthians 7:39 wrote:
39 A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord.
Malachi 2:16 wrote:
16 "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.
Hebrews 13:4 wrote:
4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
John 8:7 wrote:
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, 'He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.'
Who is attacking religion exactly?

In short: These are not religious people.
gbaji wrote:
At the point you are going out of your way to annoy someone else whilst making your point, you go past merely exercising your rights, to being a bunch of jerks.
This country was founded by a bunch of jerks.
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#26 Sep 08 2015 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Um... You kinda don't get to tell other people what their faith/beliefs should be though. That's pretty much the entire point of a whole section of the first amendment. It's not an "all or nothing" situation. If we accept a methodology where we go out of our way to seek out those with religious beliefs we don't agree with, and put them in a situation where they are forced to either violate those beliefs, or lose their jobs, then we're basically chucking the first amendment out the window.

IIRC we had a related discussion some time ago with regard to a pharmacist who refused to dispense day after birth control pills on the grounds that it was a form of abortion according to his beliefs. An argument was made that that those seeking such things could go to another pharmacy or purchase from another pharmacist at the same location, thus allowing him to keep to his beliefs, while also allowing others to get what they want. The counter was "what if this is the only pharmacy, or he's the only pharmacist". The implication being that our system could allow for those who object to certain actions on religious grounds as long as there are sufficient avenues for those who wish to engage in said actions to do so. In the case that he's the only pharmacist within a distance at which one could wait to take the pill in question, one could make a strong argument that he must either bend his beliefs, or quit (or the pharmacy must make other arrangements to allow for that contingency). So it's about compromise, right? At least that's what it should be about.

Here's a case where there is no rush. She's working at the county office of a small town. A legal marriage license could be obtained from any other county office (or anywhere in the state, for that matter). Yet, what we're seeing here is gay couples deliberately choosing to go to the one person who objects to signing their marriage licenses to get their marriage licenses. The justification mentioned above no longer applies here. In this case, it is purely about going out of your way to target a person for their religious beliefs. And while they may have a legal right to do this, it's still quite dickish. And it lays bare the objective here. It's not about getting a marriage license in this case. It's about attacking her personally for her beliefs.

And that's a whole different ball game.

Edited, Sep 8th 2015 6:00pm by gbaji
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