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#127 Dec 08 2015 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gbaji actually knows less about Libya today than he did back in March 2011 when he was busy Cassandra-ing over how it'd be a stalemate.
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#128 Dec 08 2015 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Gbaji actually knows less about Libya today than he did back in March 2011 when he was busy Cassandra-ing over how it'd be a stalemate.


Um... Which it was. Until August when NATO forces finally started to coordinate their air strikes with the rebels on the ground. Which, as I said at the time, we should have been doing from day one (as well as arming said rebels), so as to minimize the time and casualty rates. That we waited until August to do this (which, in case you're counting, is where the 6 month figure comes from), is what allowed other's to gain influence over the rebel forces that ultimately won the day. Our sitting on our hands for that long is what set up the problems we had later.
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#129 Dec 08 2015 at 5:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Cute.
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#130 Dec 08 2015 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure that this time whichever rebels we're arming in whatever middle eastern countries will be much more loyal to us after gaining power than the previous regimes we put into place.
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#131 Dec 08 2015 at 7:55 PM Rating: Default
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Debalic wrote:
I'm sure that this time whichever rebels we're arming in whatever middle eastern countries will be much more loyal to us after gaining power than the previous regimes we put into place.


I know I sound like a broken record on this, but let's compare to an alternative choice, not to a mythical perfect outcome. Are they more or less loyal to us than the ones we allowed to be armed by others? You get that just "not do something" isn't a choice. The choice is "we do something, or someone else does something". In the case of Syria, us dithering in terms of support/opposition to the rebellion simply meant that they were funded and armed by various Islamic extremist factions, which directly lead to the formation of IS in Syria. Our failure to negotiate a new SOFA in Iraq directly lead to IS extending itself into that country as well.

It's amusing to me how easily people can dismiss actions we might have taken that bear some similarity to actions we took in the past that had less than perfect outcomes, while ignoring the very clear fact that by failing to take those actions in these cases have lead directly to outcomes that are far far worse.

There is no perfect outcome here. Waiting for one is foolish. In the meantime, we should be working towards the least bad outcome. This is a concept that the Obama administration seems incapable of grasping, so they wring their hands over the lack of that perfect outcome and sit on the sidelines while the world spins more and more into chaos.
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#132 Dec 08 2015 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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You're right, it's far too far gone to salvage any kind of political advantage. Might as well just nuke it after all. (while interring anyone vaguely Arabic)
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#133 Dec 08 2015 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
I'm sure that this time whichever rebels we're arming in whatever middle eastern countries will be much more loyal to us after gaining power than the previous regimes we put into place.
Oh come on. Just because arming rebels didn't work in Greece, Nicaragua, Cuba, or Angola doesn't mean we can't have another rousing success story like Afghanistan.

What was that old saying about not learning from history?
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#134 Dec 08 2015 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Remember that time we overthrew the government in Iraq and then, six years, a couple trillion dollars and four thousand-odd US deaths later, left it with a functioning and secure government? Good times. I bet we could pull off that success a second time.
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#135 Dec 08 2015 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
There is no perfect outcome here.
In that no matter what President Obama does the GOP will hate it and call it the wrong decision? Yeah.
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#136 Dec 08 2015 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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God damn it; now Eric wants a 'hate speech' filter

I get the elite wants to have control over information, but don't they already have quite enough? Can't they let us have our little enclaves where we don't have to pretend to sing kumbaya?

Edited, Dec 8th 2015 11:57pm by angrymnk
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#137 Dec 08 2015 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
I get the elite wants to have control over information, but don't they already have quite enough? Can't they let us have our little enclaves where we don't have to pretend to sing kumbaya?

Sure. Probably not on their services though.
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#138 Dec 08 2015 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
I get the elite wants to have control over information, but don't they already have quite enough? Can't they let us have our little enclaves where we don't have to pretend to sing kumbaya?

Sure. Probably not on their services though.


Probably; then again, any service that does not rely on a big player, or ,heavens forfend, services designed with actual transparency ( for example,Lavabit ) in mind are either discouraged, or being compromised. I am not sure where it is all leading, but I am liking it less and less every day.
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#139 Dec 09 2015 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Remember that time we overthrew the government in Iraq and then, six years, a couple trillion dollars and four thousand-odd US deaths later, left it with a functioning and secure government? Good times.


Yes. I do remember it. Too bad the president who got elected in 2008 decided to chuck all that money and all that time and all those lives into the trash by abandoning Iraq instead of building on all the good things we'd accomplished there.

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I bet we could pull off that success a second time.


We could. If only we have a president with a clue about how foreign policy actually works instead of one acting on some silly theories dreamed up by academics too afraid of their own shadows to bother venturing out into the real world.
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#140 Dec 09 2015 at 8:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Remember that time we overthrew the government in Iraq and then, six years, a couple trillion dollars and four thousand-odd US deaths later, left it with a functioning and secure government? Good times.
Yes. I do remember it.

Is this level of self delusion necessary to join the Republicans or is it more of a whole Stockholm syndrome thing once you've been around long enough?
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#141 Dec 09 2015 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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We could. If only we have a president with a clue about how foreign policy actually works instead of one acting on some silly theories dreamed up by academics too afraid of their own shadows to bother venturing out into the real world.


Did you forget that Trump is leading just about all GOP polling? His theories aren't even thought up by academics, they're pulled out of his ***.
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#142 Dec 09 2015 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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The people who say they'll vote for Trump aren't really republicans, you see. They're actually parsnips.
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#143 Dec 10 2015 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
all the good things we'd accomplished there.
Ha ha HA.
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#144 Dec 10 2015 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Yes. I do remember it. Too bad the president who got elected in 2008 decided to chuck all that money and all that time and all those lives into the trash by abandoning Iraq instead of building on all the good things we'd accomplished there.


If you see someone building a shit canoe, and he's taking your money to do so, lovingly crafting it by cobbling lumps of shit together, then when he finally gets it into the water it starts to fall apart and spread shit everywhere. He says "if only i had more shit, it would be seaworthy. It would be such a waste if we stopped now." Do you continue to enable him?
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#145 Dec 10 2015 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
Yes. I do remember it. Too bad the president who got elected in 2008 decided to chuck all that money and all that time and all those lives into the trash by abandoning Iraq instead of building on all the good things we'd accomplished there.


If you see someone building a shit canoe, and he's taking your money to do so, lovingly crafting it by cobbling lumps of shit together, then when he finally gets it into the water it starts to fall apart and spread shit everywhere. He says "if only i had more shit, it would be seaworthy. It would be such a waste if we stopped now." Do you continue to enable him?

Stay the course!
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#146 Dec 11 2015 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Do you continue to enable him?
"The canoe wasn't made of shit until a liberal showed up."
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#147 Dec 11 2015 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
Yes. I do remember it. Too bad the president who got elected in 2008 decided to chuck all that money and all that time and all those lives into the trash by abandoning Iraq instead of building on all the good things we'd accomplished there.


If you see someone building a shit canoe, and he's taking your money to do so, lovingly crafting it by cobbling lumps of shit together, then when he finally gets it into the water it starts to fall apart and spread shit everywhere. He says "if only i had more shit, it would be seaworthy. It would be such a waste if we stopped now." Do you continue to enable him?
Well, to be fair, we do have a lot of shit sitting around gathering dust. If we could move it, we could get the shit factories running again, and we'd be able to control the shit contracts and hand them out to the "right" people, which would result in a tidy profit for our friends. I mean, what's the purpose in manufacturing all that shit if we just let it sit around?

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#148 Dec 16 2015 at 4:11 PM Rating: Default
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Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
Yes. I do remember it. Too bad the president who got elected in 2008 decided to chuck all that money and all that time and all those lives into the trash by abandoning Iraq instead of building on all the good things we'd accomplished there.


If you see someone building a shit canoe, and he's taking your money to do so, lovingly crafting it by cobbling lumps of shit together, then when he finally gets it into the water it starts to fall apart and spread shit everywhere. He says "if only i had more shit, it would be seaworthy. It would be such a waste if we stopped now." Do you continue to enable him?


Except that the canoe wasn't built out of shit. It was built out of wood. But you didn't believe that it would float because wood's just too heavy to float, and it might tip over, and then there's the whole "edge of the world" thing that makes man traveling on water problematic. So while the other guy is building his canoe, you keep sneaking over and bashing holes in it, all the while insisting that it'll never float. So he has to keep patching those holes you keep making. Finally, after much more work that it should have taken, he's got his canoe done. It's not pretty, with tons of patched bits all over, but sure enough it floats. Do you then, apparently in a fit of jealously over his success, continue to do everything you can to make it sink?

That's basically what the Left has been doing in the ME. They want anything we do there to fail, so they can say "I told you so". Which is kinda sad. And along the way, if the total body count is multiplied many times, well... it's just brown skinned people, and we can blame it all on those war mongering conservatives, so I guess we can sleep well at night or something. Surely you can grasp that when the bulk of a "sides" foreign policy position is based on the other side's failing, there's going to tend to be some effort spent making it fail. The reality is that, while there was still a ton of work to do, our actions in the ME were bringing about the kinds of changes which might some day result in a more peaceful region without such hatred that the rest of the world has to suffer through its primary export, terrorism. And what Obama's policies have done is set that back another 10 or 20 years.
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#149 Dec 16 2015 at 11:44 PM Rating: Good
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If you want to huff and puff that your shitcanoe is really an ocean liner, uh, be my guest, call it what you want.

But I don't want to pay for your shitcanoe.

Edited, Dec 17th 2015 12:44am by Timelordwho
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#150 Dec 16 2015 at 11:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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If by bashing holes in it you mean not unquestioningly supporting foreign wars, well, I guess you should stop complaining about healthcare reform, too, right?
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#151 Dec 17 2015 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Surely you can grasp that when the bulk of a "sides" domestic policy position is based on the other side's failing, there's going to tend to be some effort spent making it fail.
Oh, I agree.
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