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#27 Jul 06 2016 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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angrymnk wrote:
In short, I highly doubt Trump's demographic is people who hate old people do not know how email works, but there are people who are willing to take a gamble on DT after yesterday. I will admit it does not include me. Still, the sentiment is there and it is getting harder to ignore..


Funny quip aside, I don't think it has anything at all with whether someone knows how email works. The demographic in question hates people who think they are above the law. Clinton's use of a private email server wasn't because she didn't know how email works, but because she wanted to skirt the reporting and archiving requirements for her job, so as to control the record of her actions while serving as Secretary of State. Period. The Clintons have a long history of concealing and/or outright stealing documents that they believe might be harmful to them.

Anyone remember Sandy Berger, a long time Clinton ally, literally stealing documents related to the Clinton's handling of terrorist attacks in the late 90s from the national archives, by stuffing them in his pants? The idea that people around the Clinton's aren't perfectly wiling to throw themselves on the fire in order to make the Clinton's look good or to cover up their actions is ridiculous. What's unclear is how much of this is because of people genuinely believing in the Clinton's being so important to our nation that they must be protected from any negative perception, and how much is because the Clinton's have something on them and use that leverage to get others to do their dirty work for them.

In either case, the Clinton's are dirty. Very very dirty. Look up the definition of "corrupt politicians", and you'll see Bill's face there, with Hillary standing right next to him. What's amazing is how many people are willing to just look the other way, I can only assume because it's more important to them that their "side" wins than that the people leading their "side" are actually worthy to hold power in the first place.

Hah. But then again... Trump. Sigh. Is it too early for the heavy drinking?
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#28 Jul 06 2016 at 6:13 PM Rating: Good
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We've got one guy at work who is hardcore into Trump. Almost so stereotypically that you'd think it was an act if you didn't actually know him from before this all happened. And surprisingly he was not ranting and raving about it today.

I assume he is saving it all for his monthly "Truth" newsletter that he prints up and leaves copies of in the breakrooms. The Chemtrails and HAARP weather control sections will have to take a back seat in this months letter, I'm guessing.
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#29 Jul 06 2016 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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Regarding carbon copy, I regularly send emails to multiple people, but when I do I just send it to multiple people rather than arbitrarily creating a distinction the people I'm sending it too.

Regarding forwarding and reply, it's a meaningless distinction. Having shortcut keys which automatic fill certain recipient types is fine as a client side feature, but the append of "fwd" is just meaningless garbage.
#30 Jul 06 2016 at 6:18 PM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
Only real difference is what it automatically inserts as the recipients, whether or not it automatically attaches any included attachments, and _maybe_ some body formatting options based on your chosen email client. Oh, and that RE: vs FW: automatically inserted. Your last comment there is actually a Reply/Forward vs Reply All distinction. Not necessarily a Reply vs Forward distinction.


Yeah. I didn't feel like getting into that level of detail. But yeah, whether attachments are included and how the body is formatted are different (for most email client) based on whether you use forward or reply.

Quote:
Now, if you wanted to make a distinction on the whole "CC vs. BCC" options you'd see some pretty functional differences. But Forward and Reply are really the same thing, just a few automated formatting options. I chose to FW things which I am Replying to, and vice versa, specifically because of these default formatting options. I even Reply to mail in my own Sent folder.


And to be honest, those differences annoy me (this is a pet peeve thread!). I'd prefer they not change those things (but yeah, most clients do). From a useability standpoint though, the primary difference is that when you reply it automatically puts the sender on the recipient line (cause you're replying to that person). If you forward, you have a blank to line, which you fill in with whomever you want. I think for most people, that's the biggest difference. Oh, and the whole RE: vs FW: bit as well.

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I normally heavily edit the To/CC fields on all Forward / Replies anyway. Since I normally get email requests from people who want me to change things, I'll reply to them with my answer, and copy either my supervisor or their supervisors (or both) so later the person doesn't sit in a meeting and say I never respond to their requests.


That's pretty normal. What's a bit abnormal is using forward, then filling in the to line with the sender, then adding additional people to the cc line. If for no other reason than it confuses people, and in some email clients (like say thunderbird, which has an excellent tree UI), changes the way the email thread is laid out, making it harder to follow subthreads of the conversation. Outlook does the same thing (but in a much crappier way). Using forward "breaks" the email chain. Sometimes in amazingly hard to follow ways. So only use that if you want to create a wholly unrelated side conversation (like, "hey boss man, here's an email I got, and I'm curious what you think about this issue we're dealing with, but don't necessarily want our little side conversation to be visible to the list of people on the original thread").

As a general rule, if I'm including the person who originally sent the email to me in my response, I use reply. If I'm sending the email to someone completely different, and not included in the original email, I'll use forward. That doesn't preclude adding or deleting recipients as needed, but does make it a lot easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
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#31 Jul 06 2016 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
"Any reasonable person should have know that an unclassified system was no place for classified conversation"

"The security standards were not even up to the standards of private commercial email systems such as Gmail"

Your reactions to Clinton's errors in her email will demonstrate your personality!


It does not? I hear you what you are saying. You are saying that Comey sent his own Fight Club message along the lines of 'we guard you while you sleep'? That is totally what you are saying isn't it?
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#32 Jul 06 2016 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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The distinction usually isn't arbitrary for me. I'm sending it to one primary recipient and the cc'd people are getting a copy for their records, in case the primary recipient can't respond, just to be kept in the loop, etc.

BCC is super useful since I can email a request for proposal to myself, bcc some subcontractors and it's not obvious who everyone is bidding against.

Edited, Jul 6th 2016 7:24pm by Jophiel
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#33 Jul 06 2016 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
In short, I highly doubt Trump's demographic is people who hate old people do not know how email works, but there are people who are willing to take a gamble on DT after yesterday. I will admit it does not include me. Still, the sentiment is there and it is getting harder to ignore..


Funny quip aside, I don't think it has anything at all with whether someone knows how email works. The demographic in question hates people who think they are above the law. Clinton's use of a private email server wasn't because she didn't know how email works, but because she wanted to skirt the reporting and archiving requirements for her job, so as to control the record of her actions while serving as Secretary of State. Period. The Clintons have a long history of concealing and/or outright stealing documents that they believe might be harmful to them.

Anyone remember Sandy Berger, a long time Clinton ally, literally stealing documents related to the Clinton's handling of terrorist attacks in the late 90s from the national archives, by stuffing them in his pants? The idea that people around the Clinton's aren't perfectly wiling to throw themselves on the fire in order to make the Clinton's look good or to cover up their actions is ridiculous. What's unclear is how much of this is because of people genuinely believing in the Clinton's being so important to our nation that they must be protected from any negative perception, and how much is because the Clinton's have something on them and use that leverage to get others to do their dirty work for them.

In either case, the Clinton's are dirty. Very very dirty. Look up the definition of "corrupt politicians", and you'll see Bill's face there, with Hillary standing right next to him. What's amazing is how many people are willing to just look the other way, I can only assume because it's more important to them that their "side" wins than that the people leading their "side" are actually worthy to hold power in the first place.

Hah. But then again... Trump. Sigh. Is it too early for the heavy drinking?


I know, you know, pope knows.. even gaxe and joph do. I guess they are just bored.

Edited, Jul 6th 2016 8:24pm by angrymnk
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#34 Jul 06 2016 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
What's amazing is how many people are willing to just look the other way, I can only assume because it's more important to them that their "side" wins than that the people leading their "side" are actually worthy to hold power in the first place.

Hah. But then again... Trump. Sigh. Is it too early for the heavy drinking?

Heh, seriously. You have the GOP leadership having to condemn every third thing Trump says but then they still endorse him. Or Walker's bizarre endorsement today where he refused to say Trump's name.

Probably want to hold off on being smug about people who care less about the quality of their candidates than "winning".
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#35 Jul 06 2016 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
The distinction usually isn't arbitrary for me. I'm sending it to one primary recipient and the cc'd people are getting a copy for their records, in case the primary recipient can't respond, just to be kept in the loop, etc.

Which is fine as an optional client feature since it is cosmetic, but not needed as an inherent part of email.

Some people like to put a line through their seven to differentiate it from a 1. If people want to design fonts and applications that display a 7 as such, that's fine. What's pointless is building a keyboard with a numpad that has two sevens, one with and one without the slash.
Jophiel wrote:
BCC is super useful since I can email a request for proposal to myself, bcc some subcontractors and it's not obvious who everyone is bidding against.

BCC is a meaningful difference as it affects what people can and cannot do, except it's done wrong since you can't set individual view preferences per recipient. For example, I might send a generic flyer to several clients and BCC them so that they cannot see our entire clientele list, but I will also send/cc coworkers who should be able to see all recipients but cannot.
#36 Jul 06 2016 at 7:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Very little is needed as an inherent part of email. That's why things come with "features".

Edited, Jul 6th 2016 8:06pm by Jophiel
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#37 Jul 06 2016 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
What's amazing is how many people are willing to just look the other way, I can only assume because it's more important to them that their "side" wins than that the people leading their "side" are actually worthy to hold power in the first place.

Hah. But then again... Trump. Sigh. Is it too early for the heavy drinking?

Heh, seriously.


Smiley: chug

Quote:
You have the GOP leadership having to condemn every third thing Trump says but then they still endorse him. Or Walker's bizarre endorsement today where he refused to say Trump's name.

Probably want to hold off on being smug about people who care less about the quality of their candidates than "winning".


I think the Dems are just much better at lying about it for the sake of party unity. Let's face it, the Obama/Clinton lovefest yesterday was almost painful to watch. Talk about trying way too hard. I particularly loved when Obama called Clinton the Energizer Bunny (I'm sure that no feminist groups will have issue with the word "bunny" used in this context though, so it's all ok), and when Clinton said that Obama's greatest accomplishment was more or less successfully breeding (yeah, I get what she was saying, but boy could you interpret it another way if you wanted). There were seriously points where I thought they were both basically going right to the edge of backhanded insults, followed with a laugh, and "look, we're just kidding, we're all one happy family now!" shift.

To be fair though, the gap between Trump and the GOP is much wider than between Obama and Clinton. So there''s that as well.
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#38 Jul 06 2016 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Regarding carbon copy, I regularly send emails to multiple people, but when I do I just send it to multiple people rather .
I regularly need to send emails to multiple people but the task assigned within is meant for one person, but the others need to be aware of it. By sending it to one and CCing the others, that allows me to clarify who is responsible while keeping the others in the loop.
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#39 Jul 06 2016 at 11:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I think the Dems are just much better at lying about it for the sake of party unity.

I guess that's one way of trying to put a positive spin on "The GOP is utterly dismayed at their candidate but will support him anyway purely for the sake of winning". The keynote speaker for the GOP's convention literally endorsed Trump by saying "I said I’d support the GOP nominee. It’s now clear who the RNC delegates will vote to nominate. And he is better than she is."

"Well, I said I'd do this so now I guess I have to do it. Yay Republicans..."
Quote:
Talk about trying way too hard. I particularly loved when Obama called Clinton the Energizer Bunny (I'm sure that no feminist groups will have issue with the word "bunny" used in this context though, so it's all ok), and when Clinton said that Obama's greatest accomplishment was more or less successfully breeding (yeah, I get what she was saying, but boy could you interpret it another way if you wanted).

You're sounding desperate.

Edited, Jul 7th 2016 12:02am by Jophiel
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#40 Jul 06 2016 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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I understand that you are using the feature. what I'm arguing is that what you're doing has been implemented on the wrong level.

It would be as if a keyboard has two sets of alphanumeric keys, one that types regular and one that types bold. It's not that I don't people shouldn't use bold or shouldn't have access to it, but building it into the hardware of the keyboard is a poor design choice. It's best implemented at a higher level, like in word processing software.

Email is similar, in that CC isn't a feature that should be a fundamental aspect of email, it should be a interface addon, like outlook's option to mark emails as high or low importance. By making it a core part of the system you are:

1) Limiting the way people can use it. In your example there are two groups of people, recipients and CC. If you for any reason wanted to declare a third group (say one person is given the primary task, others just need to be in the loop but not actively doing it, and a third is for auditing records who don't even need to read it but do need to have it for archives), you cannot do so. It is made impossible at a fundamental level.

2) Creating confusing arbitrary systems as people try to apply distinctions to indistinct differentiators. The recipient and CC fields are functionally identical. What you are doing is a cosmetic difference. If you decided to flip the CC and recipient fields so that the CC person is responsible and the recipients need to be in the loop, it would work exactly the same because all that is changing is how people interpret the information and not how the system handles the information. This leads to different organizations using the same system in different and contradictory ways. what cc means to you are your company is not what cc means to someone else at a different company. I admit it's a minor issue, but it's easily avoidable by fixing email.

3) Forcing users to make use of a system they don't want or need. Another minor problem, but still representative of bad design.

The physical world equivalent of carbon copy potentially has a functional difference. If I hold an original mortgage note I have certain legal rights that a person holding a carbon copy of the mortgage note does not. If it's just a physical letter with information (say a quarterly report), then the original and a copy do the exact same thing and there is no difference and no need to designate one as a copy or not. A carbon copy of an email is functionally identical to the *original* email because it's purely informational.

Edited, Jul 7th 2016 12:48am by Allegory
#41 Jul 07 2016 at 6:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
I understand that you are using the feature. what I'm arguing is that what you're doing has been implemented on the wrong level.

Ok, dude. You care WAY more about e-mail than me so you can win this one.
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#42 Jul 07 2016 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
There isn't one, at least functionally.
My mother constantly sends two word emails that say "read this" when she means to forward messages from other family members, so functionally one keeps an Italian woman from screaming into a phone about how I don't care enough about the family to keep in touch and don't appear at family gatherings that afternoon.
angrymnk wrote:
I will admit it does not include me.
Kind of my point. At this point of the election no one really cares about a noncrime except people who are actively looking for rationalizations for who they're voting for. It's not "X is bad so I'm voting for Y," so much as "I'm voting for Y anyway and this will make me feel better about it." The "political class" aren't surprised by this, they bank on it.
gbaji wrote:
The demographic in question hates people who think they are above the law.
If that were the case then they wouldn't be "Trump supporters" either.
gbaji wrote:
I think the Dems are just much better at lying about it for the sake of party unity.
"Being better politicians" isn't nearly as damning an accusation as you seem to believe it to be.
Jophiel wrote:
You're sounding desperate.
I imagine it's his conscience battling his party allegiance.

Edited, Jul 7th 2016 9:52am by lolgaxe
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#43 Jul 07 2016 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Kind of my point. At this point of the election no one really cares about a noncrime except people who are actively looking for rationalizations for who they're voting for.
You're forgetting ****** off Bernie Bros who are hoping this will clear the way for him to swoop in and save the election.

I'm also annoyed by it and don't need anything to feel better about voting for Trump, but whatevs.

Edit: Scott Adams makes an interesting point.

Edited, Jul 7th 2016 8:54am by Poldaran
#44 Jul 07 2016 at 9:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Adams makes a point but he took a lot of weird turns to get there. His ideas about the Supreme Court are... questionable and Comey did not say that Clinton was "100% guilty" since that would require a court to decide.
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#45 Jul 07 2016 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd argue that if you're not annoyed by politicians then you aren't paying attention, but I have my doubts that being annoyed is enough to cause anyone to switch from one candidate to another.

Especially this cycle.
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Credibility has to be job one.
Did he stop paying attention after Nixon?

Edited, Jul 7th 2016 11:10am by lolgaxe
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#46 Jul 07 2016 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Ok, dude. You care WAY more about e-mail than me so you can win this one.

Thanks Gbaji.
#47 Jul 07 2016 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: confused
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Smiley: thumbsup
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#48 Jul 07 2016 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
My mom still can't figure out the difference between Reply and Forward.

There isn't one, at least functionally.


There is. If you reply, and add a recipient, there won't be any attachments from the previous email. If you forward to someone, attachments will be included. Usually forward to someone who wasn't on the original email. This is a thing that my boss, who is older, can't wrap his head around, so I get added to a lot of replies, with things like "can you fill out the attached document from so-and-so" and I have to reply asking him to forward the document to me.
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#49 Jul 07 2016 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Kind of my point. At this point of the election no one really cares about a noncrime except people who are actively looking for rationalizations for who they're voting for. It's not "X is bad so I'm voting for Y," so much as "I'm voting for Y anyway and this will make me feel better about it." The "political class" aren't surprised by this, they bank on it.


It is odd though. Anyone else would have been nailed to the wall. Suddenly, that 'noncrime' as you put it, would quickly be accompanied by everything that can thrown into the mix ( maybe even cfaa, who knows ). The only reason she was not is because she has enough clout.. apparently.

Also, I think you misunderstood my response. I am sure as **** not doing the lesser evil thing. If I was sociable enough and/or had a platform, I would be calling for an outright rejection of both mainstream candidates. I am not even sure why this cannot happen. Internet should make it easy. And yet it seems impossible to a vast majority of Americans.

Now that is some amazing level of indoctrination.
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#50 Jul 07 2016 at 5:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Probably because the hippie whose political experience is a term on her HOA board doesn't inspire much interest.
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#51 Jul 07 2016 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Probably because the hippie whose political experience is a term on her HOA board doesn't inspire much interest.


Don't knock their ideals, man.

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