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#327 Aug 16 2016 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Um... duh. I've stated numerous times that I don't believe that bigotry by cops is more than an incredibly tiny factor to this issue.
Yes, we know.

Douche.

gbaji wrote:
I'm not placing the same weight on it as I place things like black poverty and the environmental effects on a whole list of social stats that results from it.
Right. Because of racism.

Douche.
gbaji wrote:
No. It means I'm willing to look past the simplistic emotional rhetoric of the issue and make an objective assessment.
Right. Ignoring reality.

Douche.





Your realize that every time you post this shit you drive home - further and further- the evidence that you have been a sheltered middle-to-upper-class suburban dingle your whole life. Your tired stories of bootstrapping look sillier and more obvious every day.

Just put on the robes, already
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#328 Aug 16 2016 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Let's pretend for the moment that I don't spend more than a tiny fraction of my time thinking
I'm waaaayyy ahead of ya.
Heh, pretend.
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#329 Aug 16 2016 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
Your realize that every time you post this shit you drive home - further and further- the evidence that you have been a sheltered middle-to-upper-class suburban dingle your whole life.
That's crazy talk. Don't things work the same way with these demographics as with these?

Smiley: rolleyes
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#330 Aug 16 2016 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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They're both circles, so obviously the racial make ups are the same.

Edited, Aug 16th 2016 12:37pm by lolgaxe
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#331 Aug 16 2016 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Exactly; which makes this the perfect place to test race relations of a police force.

People are missing the big picture, IMO. It not like we're testing race relations on triangle populations, or with squares, or pentagons. We're all circles here, and it's that similarity that unites us. People are focusing too much on the color of the circles and not the circles themselves! That's why they're wrong. Smiley: oyvey
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#332 Aug 16 2016 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Not I, for long ago I learned that it was hip to be square.
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#333 Aug 16 2016 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hey that's cool. You should be proud of who you are. It's all those circles walking around acting like squares that are the problem. Wearing square pants, awkwardly trying to have points. They're hijacking and perverting square culture with their round ways, and it's embarrassing. They could never know what it's like to really be a square, but that won't stop them from acting like it. At the end of their day they roll back home to their round homes in their upscale neighborhoods while the real squares are still suffering in the streets. It's criminal I tell ya. Smiley: disappointed

Edited, Aug 16th 2016 11:11am by someproteinguy
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#334 Aug 16 2016 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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It's all these circles trying to appropriate the square culture that is truly ruining everything. Smiley: mad
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#335 Aug 16 2016 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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All I get are 404's
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#336 Aug 16 2016 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
All I get are 404's

I had to manually add the http:// to be able to see them.
#337 Aug 16 2016 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, that fixed it! I didn't even look for that.
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#338 Aug 16 2016 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Um... duh. I've stated numerous times that I don't believe that bigotry by cops is more than an incredibly tiny factor to this issue.
Yes, we know.


And you also know that I'm right?

Quote:
Douche.


Calling me names doesn't change the fact that I'm right.

Quote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm not placing the same weight on it as I place things like black poverty and the environmental effects on a whole list of social stats that results from it.
Right. Because of racism.

Douche.


Sigh... And this is you doubling down on rhetoric. When you can't make an argument, just call the other person names. Seems to be a consistent methodology at least. I've already linked to a number of articles and studies saying the same thing I am. Other than name calling, do you have any support for the idea that racism is a major component to the stats we're looking at? Again, it's easy to just point at the disparate stats and leap to "racism" as the explanation. But I've explained several times that this isn't the correct answer.

If you disagree, then by all means provide some kind of source and/or argument to support said disagreement. When all you do is call me names, that kinda tells me that you know I'm right, but don't want to admit it.

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gbaji wrote:
No. It means I'm willing to look past the simplistic emotional rhetoric of the issue and make an objective assessment.
Right. Ignoring reality.

Douche.


Same thing again. Ignoring reality is what you are doing, not me. You're looking at the easy emotion laden thing and latching onto it no matter how many facts, stats, studies, and other bits of "reality" don't agree. Then you call the guy looking at those things a racist. Well, that's typical.

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Your realize that every time you post this shit you drive home - further and further- the evidence that you have been a sheltered middle-to-upper-class suburban dingle your whole life. Your tired stories of bootstrapping look sillier and more obvious every day.


Where I'm from, or what my background is, doesn't have any bearing on me being right. Do you have any response that isn't just an attack on the guy posting the things you don't like? Anything at all? Even a tiny bit of self-reflection should clue you in to the flaw in your own position. How about not doubling down on that and maybe trying to open your mind a bit?
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#339 Aug 16 2016 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Where I'm from, or what my background is, doesn't have any bearing on me being right.
That's true.

It has quite a bit of bearing on how you chose to compile and interpret information and which sources for said information are valuable and which sources you chose to discard because they don't fit your personal narrative.

And you're right; calling you a douche is silly. An actual douche has a useful function and doesn't claim to be anything but what it is.
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#340 Aug 16 2016 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Where I'm from, or what my background is, doesn't have any bearing on me being right.
Weird, since you recently argued that where you're from is all the bearing you needed to be right about immigration.
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#341 Aug 16 2016 at 7:51 PM Rating: Default
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Where I'm from, or what my background is, doesn't have any bearing on me being right.
That's true.

It has quite a bit of bearing on how you chose to compile and interpret information and which sources for said information are valuable and which sources you chose to discard because they don't fit your personal narrative.


Ok. What sources are you using then? Has it occurred to you that maybe the same applies in reverse? I'm at least looking beyond the bumper sticker slogans. How you are arriving at your position? Cause it seems like you're just joining the chanting crowd and not really engaging in any sort of thought at all.

It's just funny that I've asked several times now for you to provide an argument to support your actions. Evidence that racism by cops is the problem, would be a great start. And again, the end stats don't count, since we're trying to determine the cause of those stats. They are the result of something. Evidence of the sort of rampant racism you'd need to have in our police forces to contribute even a small amount to the stats we're seeing should be everywhere. We should be seeing cops running around using racial epithets all the time. We should be catching them on video, taking black people out of cars and beating them silly,every night, in every major city. We should be hearing reports of folks in the police departments blowing the whistle on this sort of thing. Going to the papers with stories of how the cops talk about black people when no one is around.

Racism of that scale can't exist just inside this guy, or that guy. It's a group thing. Back in the 50s and 60s, you knew where racism was rampant because people spoke openly among themselves about it. I don't see how you could possibly have such rampant racism by so many cops, and none of them mention it to any of the others? Not even a nod and a wink from time to time? Because this is the sort of thing that should be being reported if this was actually going on. Not this one time. Or once in a great while. All the time. Everywhere. Because that's the scale you'd need for racism by cops to be the source of the problem.

It's just not there. The occasional example? Sure. But nothing anywhere near enough to account for the stats we see.

Poverty, and its effect on crime, especially when in densely populated urban environments, is well documented. And there's a ton of research that strongly supports the notion that this effect alone can easily account for the difference in crime/police stats between black and white in this country. Why insist on ignoring this as the most likely explanation? There's actual data. Where's the data on the kind of widespread racism that would have to exist for it to be the explanation? Nowhere, right? Speculation. Guesses. Innuendo. That's it. It's the cause people leap to because it's the cause they want to leap to. Nothing more.

I'm serious here. How do you think "racism" can explain the stats? I'm just not seeing it. And you can sit there and call me names as long as you want, but it's not going to change the fact that I just don't see it. What might be a step in the right direction would be some kind of logical argument, maybe even backed up with some data. But I've been asking for that for the entirety of this thread, and all I've gotten is name calling in response.

Do any sort of goggle search on why blacks are killed by cops more than whites and you'll get page after page after page of hits, the vast majority of which will say the same thing I've been saying. That when you look at the crime rates, which affect the rates of interaction with police, the shooting/harming rates by police are virtually identical between white and black. And when you look at poverty rates as they related to higher crime rates, and then look at relative poverty rates between blacks and whites, the entire picture fills in and makes sense. The cops aren't the cause of this. They're just stuck in the middle. Blacks are 4 times more likely to live in a high poverty neighborhood than whites. That's your stat right there, and that's ultimately the cause of the difference in police shootings as well. And it's also the difference in literacy rates, school drop out rates, gang membership rates, drug addiction rates, employment rates, etc, etc, etc.

Let's assume for a moment that not only the existence of black life matters, but that the quality of black lives matter. Isn't going after the cops a non-starter here? Even if you could somehow manage to artificially change the resulting death rate of blacks by cops to be identical to that of whites, you're only treating a symptom. And the rest are still going to be intact. Isn't the more important thing to look at why there's such a massive poverty difference between black and white in this country and maybe fix that instead?

Why are people, especially liberals who claim to care the most, so opposed to this? I'd think they'd be right there with me on this one. But, oddly, that's not the case.
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#342 Aug 16 2016 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
And again, the end stats don't count, since we're trying to determine the cause of those stats.
This type of thinking on your part makes it likely that anything anyone ever cites will be an utter waste of time as you simply discount reality.

Which is what I keep saying.


Seriously; it's pretty much you saying "show me proof that the boson exists, but don't use any data from a particle accelerator to do it".


Edited, Aug 16th 2016 9:09pm by Bijou
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#343 Aug 16 2016 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Isn't the more important thing to look at why there's such a massive poverty difference between black and white in this country and maybe fix that instead?
We've all answered that and you handwaved it away. Because in your world there is no racism. Because if there was you would have to admit you are part of the problem. Which you are to much of a coward to do. Which leads to you claiming there's no racism...ad nauseum

ALSO: See the ratedowns? I thought I'd mention that's not me. I told you some time ago that I'd stop doing that and I've held to it.

Just in case, you know, you thought that was me.
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#344 Aug 16 2016 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
Let's pretend for the moment that I don't spend more than a tiny fraction of my time thinking about this subject and that I have no clue what "category" you're claiming I'm refusing to accept. Please tell me what category I'm not accepting and we can go from there. I'm quite sure I already asked you this just a few posts ago, and all you did was repeat the claim. I'll ask again: What is it you think I'm ignoring?


Gbaji wrote:
I can't ignore a point that was never made. If you think I'm ignoring something, it's usually because I don't have a clue what you're talking about because you seem to go out of your way to be vague. You respond to a statement I make with something else totally unrelated. You reference past posts, that don't appear to have anything to do with the current one. Then you sit back and insist that I'm ignoring you when I ask you to clarify what exactly it is you're talking about. See how that's a problem? Focus your mind. You wander all over the place.


Gbaji wrote:
Uh... What? The riots in Ferguson occurred well before there could have been a prosecutor assigned to anything related to the shooting.


Gbaji wrote:
I did. I also understood what I was reading, and applied it to the broader context of this issue. You did not.
I'm saying that the state of Black America is the result of both personal actions and institutionalized favoritism and that conservatives (like you) only focus on the former and liberals only focus on the latter.

Gbaji wrote:
I'm not going to reopen a 3 year old thread Alma.
Fine with me. Let it stay there.


Gbaji wrote:
Does the state of Black America justify the rioting in Milwaukee? It's funny because it's like you just can't say (write) the words: "The riots in Milwaukee are unjustified". It's like you're so stuck in an "us vs them" mindset that you see any condemnation of any action taken by those on your "side" (no matter how ill conceived or counter productive) as a retreat from a position you hold.

You can simultaneously condemn the violence we keep seeing from these events and support the cause of improving the condition of blacks in the US. In fact, I think that the hesitancy to do this is part of the problem. It makes those who engage in violence think that they're helping. They're not. But as long as prominent black leaders and blacks as a whole fail to roundly condemn these sorts of things, it's just going to get worse. And any hope of moving forward with actual solutions and improvements of the black condition will be stalled.

And this is why I have an issue with BLM. They don't seem to want solutions. They just want to stir the pot.
I'm pretty sure that I said that those riots (Milwaukee, Ferguson, Baltimore, LA, random championship,etc) are unjustified. See my first response in this post.
#345 Aug 17 2016 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Do any sort of goggle search on why blacks are killed by cops more than whites and you'll get page after page after page of hits, the vast majority of which will say the same thing I've been saying.
Do any sort of google search on (literally any opinion) and you'll get page after page after page of hits, the vast majority of which will say the same thing you've been saying.
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#346 Aug 17 2016 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just because I was having trouble waking up and this was easier than thinking about proteins...

Provisional model of causes
Border racism stuff
Race and racism as causes probably won't like this one as it doesn't go much beyond stats
Analysis of Police shootings Yes this one is a "stats paper" at heart, but there's analysis beyond that.
Explaining Police Bias
Racial insults in police interrogations
Driving while black
Race-related stress

That's only going back to 2000, and just with a "racism police causes" search in google scholar (and only went through the first 5-6 pages). But hey, that's pretty good for a before coffee search by my accounts. Biggest probably with getting a full picture is problem that the field seems to have moved beyond that point. A lot more articles examining different aspects of racism and police action, rather than "proving" that it exists. Probably should have gone back further to grab more fundamental articles as there seemed to be a lot done in the 90's in the aftermath of the whole Rodney King thing. Also tracing through some of the citation trees would probably be a good thing to do, but I've got to actually research protein stuff too today, so can't spend too much time on it. Big disclaimer that I'm not involved in the field, so I'm probably missing the more fundamental cited papers, as would be typical when someone blindly tries to research outside of their own field.

Edited, Aug 17th 2016 8:15am by someproteinguy
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#347 Aug 17 2016 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It's just funny that I've asked several times now for you to provide an argument to support your actions. Evidence that racism by cops is the problem, would be a great start. And again, the end stats don't count, since we're trying to determine the cause of those stats. They are the result of something. Evidence of the sort of rampant racism you'd need to have in our police forces to contribute even a small amount to the stats we're seeing should be everywhere. We should be seeing cops running around using racial epithets all the time. We should be catching them on video, taking black people out of cars and beating them silly,every night, in every major city. We should be hearing reports of folks in the police departments blowing the whistle on this sort of thing. Going to the papers with stories of how the cops talk about black people when no one is around.
I think, one of the hardest thing to explain to someone in the majority, who doesn't "see" racism is explaining how non-overt actions can have a negative impact on minority well-being. It's easy to see how someone shouting a racial epitaph at someone else is racism, it's harder to explain how rezoning, or choosing the location of a public library, or similar could cause harm. Things like policy decisions, criminalization of different activities, lack of funding for research into diseases that afflict minorities at a higher rate, or whatnot can disproportionately affect minorities without raising alarm. A nice modern example is how there's studies now showing how teaching people about the threat of terrorism in a post-9/11 world is encouraging racism against middle-eastern people. Those kinds of things aren't overt, but still cause great harm. That's of course going beyond how individual people's actions can be harmful without knowing it.

Problem with much of this subtle racism is that you really aren't going to see it as long as you're in the majority. You'd need to really spend time in a place where your culture isn't the driving force in policy making before you can even get an inkling of it. That's not really something that you can do with most people, so they'll often remain blissfully unaware that their actions are causing harm. The idea that you have to be shooting a black guy or shouting racial slurs at someone to be racist is a very narrow view of it, that's only a small slice of potential racist activities.
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#348 Aug 17 2016 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gbaji's schtick is to continually ignore end results or even causes leading to those end results and instead insist that there's a nebulous, unprovable base reason that everyone else refuses to accept. Any citation of stats or research is dismissed with "Yes, but the cause of THAT is really...". and, of course, he tries his damnedest to shift the burden of evidence on you to disprove him ("No one has come up with a better reason...") instead of actively showing evidence supporting his claims.

This is his new "It's just obvious!" but with "black poverty (caused by Democrats, no doubt)" substituted for "to encourage marriage".

Edited, Aug 17th 2016 10:43am by Jophiel
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#349 Aug 17 2016 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Was kind of hoping to see him link some of his sources. I mean the last one was interesting, but the whole "don't take these results and universalize them" part in the articles citing it sucked some of the wind out. I mean it was still interesting and all regardless, but the nature of the experiment did limit the usefulness of the data. Seemed to have some interesting methodology, and reasonable critical thinking though. Another hit of that could be fun.

What can I say, I'm a sucker for science stuff. Smiley: blush
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#350 Aug 17 2016 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
I mean the last one was interesting, but the whole "don't take these results and universalize them" part in the articles citing it sucked some of the wind out.
I felt that was the best part of the article.
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#351 Aug 17 2016 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
I mean the last one was interesting, but the whole "don't take these results and universalize them" part in the articles citing it sucked some of the wind out.
I felt that was the best part of the article.
It has made the last page or two of posts that much more amusing.
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