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#77 Mar 08 2017 at 9:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
Once he did, the issue went away.

Arguable. The number of Republicans who believed he was probably born in the U.S. increased 14 percentage points after the release, but was still less than half.


You know how I feel about opinion polls. When was the last time you saw anything about this on a news channel, panel discussion on a political show, etc? The "issue went away" because once Obama released his full birth certificate, there was nothing left to discuss. More significant to my part of the discussion, there was nothing to legally request or demand (like say a birth document in a courtroom). There's no other documentation one could go to, right? No one's demanding any additional proof, because there kinda can't be any.

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If you google "Obama birth certificate" then you find several articles in the past few months questioning it.


All on the same site. That's like tuning into the coast to coast radio show and concluding that the issue of the moon landing hasn't yet been resolved, or the questions about bigfoot, roswell greys, crop circles, chem trails, etc, are all big issues we need to address like "right now".

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The issue has yet to disappear, and it probably won't disappear until Obama fades from memory as a bogeyman.


It'll never disappear, since it exists in memory and as an historical footnote. The question is the degree to which it impacts anyone and the degree to which anyone takes any sort of action in reaction to it. Currently that is pretty much zero.
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#78 Mar 08 2017 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
When was the last time you saw anything about this on a news channel, panel discussion on a political show, etc?

Do you mean the liberally biased media which is intentionally ignoring this issue?
gbaji wrote:
All on the same site.

It's pretty insulting when you lie about something so easily checked.
gbaji wrote:
The question is the degree to which it impacts anyone and the degree to which anyone takes any sort of action in reaction to it. Currently that is pretty much zero

He is not the president anymore. The rumor did what it needed to do, and now that time is over.
#79 Mar 09 2017 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Does the document you get from the county courthouse or hall of records contain the hospital you were born in and the signatures of the doctor and some other witness to that birth? If so, that's what was missing from the original document Obama released
No.

No, it doesn't.

Which was the point.
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#80 Mar 09 2017 at 7:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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As Gbaji wastes dozens of posts in 2017 arguing about the birth certificate of a guy who was elected in 2008, re-elected in 2012 and left office a couple months ago he would like to remind you all that he's not really a Birther and it hurts his heart when people falsely imply that he is. He's just asking questions. Sort of like those people who continue to just ask questions about the temperature of burning jet fuel and the melting point of steel.

Edited, Mar 9th 2017 7:41am by Jophiel
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#81 Mar 09 2017 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
As Gbaji wastes dozens of posts in 2017 arguing about the birth certificate of a guy who was elected in 2008
Still better than arguing about the guy who totally wanted to go serve his country but just wasn't allowed to by the big mean liberals that listened to his request to back out of deploying.

Edited, Mar 9th 2017 9:15am by lolgaxe
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#83 Mar 09 2017 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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No, that ties into it because the liberal military complex destroyed democracy by sinisterly granting his request instead of letting him sue the government.
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#84 Mar 09 2017 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
That's great and all, but one of those is relevant to determining a constitutional requirement to hold the office of president. The other is... Not.



Unless, of course, he has hidden business dealings with one or more foreign states that could affect his policy decisions.

It won't happen, but I think going forward candidates should be required to disclose their taxes.
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#85 Mar 09 2017 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
gbaji wrote:
When was the last time you saw anything about this on a news channel, panel discussion on a political show, etc?

Do you mean the liberally biased media which is intentionally ignoring this issue?


Any media at all. I'm honestly not sure what you mean here.

Quote:
gbaji wrote:
All on the same site.

It's pretty insulting when you lie about something so easily checked.


Um... Yesterday, the only recent hits on that google search all went to www.wnd.XXX (and there were just three of them). Today, it looks like there's some new stuff.

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gbaji wrote:
The question is the degree to which it impacts anyone and the degree to which anyone takes any sort of action in reaction to it. Currently that is pretty much zero

He is not the president anymore. The rumor did what it needed to do, and now that time is over.


It was pretty much zero for the last 5 or so years, not just since Obama left office. Do you recall anyone making this an issue during the 2012 election? Nope. I'm sure you can dig up the occasional fringe person digging up the old claim (or some people who don't really follow politics not realizing it's been resolved), but that's been about it.
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#86 Mar 09 2017 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
As Gbaji wastes dozens of posts in 2017 arguing about the birth certificate of a guy who was elected in 2008, re-elected in 2012 and left office a couple months ago he would like to remind you all that he's not really a Birther and it hurts his heart when people falsely imply that he is. He's just asking questions. Sort of like those people who continue to just ask questions about the temperature of burning jet fuel and the melting point of steel.


Except I didn't raise the issue Joph. Bijou did. I'm more than content to let the entire issue rest on the dust heap of history, but it just seems like others can't let it go.
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#87 Mar 09 2017 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Does the document you get from the county courthouse or hall of records contain the hospital you were born in and the signatures of the doctor and some other witness to that birth? If so, that's what was missing from the original document Obama released
No.

No, it doesn't.

Which was the point.


That's a valid point then. I've never seen a birth certificate from a courthouse (with state seal and all) that didn't contain this information. But again, if you were born on a military base, then what they have on file may be more like the certification that Obama provided, and you'd have to go to the military for your full form? Dunno.

Honestly, none of that changes the fact that Obama's birth certificate, which was actually on file and available for him to release the whole time, did in fact contain that information, while the certification he released did not. Obama was not born on a military base. His long form certificate was readily available. He chose to use a different form instead. And when asked to provide the full form, which would remove all doubt as to his birth location, he stamped his feet and refused for 2 and a half years.

For most people, getting that form is super easy. Heck. Getting that form for someone else is easy (just need to know a few bits of information).
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#88 Mar 09 2017 at 8:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm more than content to let the entire issue rest on the dust heap of history

Obviously Smiley: laugh
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#89 Mar 09 2017 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm more than content to let the entire issue rest on the dust heap of history

Obviously Smiley: laugh


Did I bring the issue up? Sure seems to me like others place far more weight in the significance of this than I do.
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#90 Mar 09 2017 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Today, it looks like there's some new stuff.

You display a lot of admirable qualities. You shrug off a barrage of insults people I think many times unjustly hurl at you. You take the time to respond in detail. You put yourself in a place that tends to lean against you politically.

I'm fairly naive, and I'm willing to grant you that Google does change and that I can't be absolutely certain what you saw. But if you've knowingly lied to me on this, I want you to know that disappoints me.
#91 Mar 10 2017 at 12:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Did I bring the issue up?

Did you let it pass without typing 5,000 words about it? Smiley: laugh
gbaji wrote:
Do you recall anyone making this an issue during the 2012 election? Nope. I'm sure you can dig up the occasional fringe person digging up the old claim

Fringe people like the current leader of the Republican Party.

Edited, Mar 10th 2017 12:53am by Jophiel
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#92 Mar 10 2017 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
You take the time to respond in detail.
It's easy to go into detail if you're not particularly concerned with accuracy.
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#93 Mar 13 2017 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Today, it looks like there's some new stuff.

You display a lot of admirable qualities. You shrug off a barrage of insults people I think many times unjustly hurl at you. You take the time to respond in detail. You put yourself in a place that tends to lean against you politically.

I'm fairly naive, and I'm willing to grant you that Google does change and that I can't be absolutely certain what you saw. But if you've knowingly lied to me on this, I want you to know that disappoints me.


Without having taken a screenshot or something, i can't prove to you what I saw. The "new" stuff (at least last Friday), was all posted within the previous 24 hours (you can see how old a google hit is), and consisted of Obama's brother holding up a copy of a old debunked faked Kenyan birth certificate (debunked as in, shown to be false back in 2009, debunked). That created a half dozen new hits on google, which happened to occur right after I looked.

Yeah. Goodle hit results change every day. Every hour. That's all that happened.
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#94 Mar 13 2017 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Did I bring the issue up?

Did you let it pass without typing 5,000 words about it? Smiley: laugh


To debunk false claims? Yes. Not sure what's wrong about that. If I don't, then the false claims stand as truth. As long as people keep bringing up this old issue, and misrepresenting it, I'm going to respond and correct the record. If you don't want me to spend 5,000 words dispelling the same myth (again!), then stop repeating the myth.

I'd do the exact same thing if someone started posting about how the moon landing was faked. You'll note, that I don't, out of the blue, start posting about how dumb people who think the moon landing was faked are, or broadly painting an entire segment of society as dumb by association. I do find it odd that for some posters, the best way to respond to a subject being discussed *now* is to bring up some old subject that paints the other "side" in a negative light and make fun of them for it. Honestly not sure how that works, but it is a common trend.

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gbaji wrote:
Do you recall anyone making this an issue during the 2012 election? Nope. I'm sure you can dig up the occasional fringe person digging up the old claim

Fringe people like the current leader of the Republican Party.


Well gee. Same thing. People bring up an old topic to Trump, and he responds to it. It's not like he brought the subject up himself, right? Heck. He was practically hounded by media forcing him to make an official on the record statement that Obama was born in the US. Sounds like they were the ones still obsessed with the issue, right?

Edited, Mar 13th 2017 5:10pm by gbaji
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#95 Mar 13 2017 at 6:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, Trump was "hounded" into Tweeting Smiley: laugh

Ah, you.
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#96 Mar 13 2017 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, Trump was "hounded" into Tweeting Smiley: laugh

Ah, you.


He said it at a speech, not in a tweet. And it certainly was the result of hounding by the media. Unless the word "finally" has a different connotation for you. Or did you just sleep during that part of the campaign? I remember it clearly. I think we even had a discussion about it on this forum.

I do find the article's language interesting though:

Quote:
The birtherism controversy exploded the previous night when Trump said in an interview with The Washington Post that he still wasn't prepared to acknowledge Obama's birthplace. Within a few hours, the campaign released a statement -- attributed to his spokesman -- that said Trump now believes Obama was born in the United States.


The actual exchange was the reporter, more or less out of the blue, asking if he believed Obama was born in the US. What Trump actually said was that he would answer that question at a different time, but that he didn't want to discuss it at the time, because it would only be a distraction, and it would be the story rather than his platform position he was running on. Of course, that itself became the story, and created an "explosion" of media coverage. Until Trump, a few days later, just flatly stated in some random event he was doing that Obama was born in the US. Period. One would hope that would end the issue, right?

Again. He didn't bring it up. Because for him, and most people, the issue was decided back when Obama finally revealed his long form birth certificate. It's funny because, as I keep pointing out, the only people who keep raising this topic are liberals. No one else, outside of a small fringe conspiracy set, spend any time on this at all. Except when we're forced to because someone on the Left raises it again. And again. And again. Because for the Left it was never about accurate documentation to prove a required status to hold the office. It was then and still is a means to attempt to paint conservatives in a negative light, just by association to the "birther movement".

You know, like exactly what Bijou was doing when he brought it up. And presumably exactly the reason why the WP reporter brought it up in that Trump interview. And presumably why the media went all gaga when Trump didn't immediately answer (I honestly suspect that was Trump basically trolling them, but that's just me). And yeah, it's the same thing that you do yourself when you randomly out of the blue attempt to dismiss some point I'm making because "you argued for X years that Obama wasn't a US citizen". As if that has anything at all to do with whatever topic is at hand.

Dismiss. Distract. Belittle. Don't you get tired of those tactics? Ever?
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#97 Mar 13 2017 at 10:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, you're referring to a completely different event. Try actually reading my link next time instead of knee-jerk insisting people are wrong.

Not getting your news from anywhere, etc.
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#98 Mar 14 2017 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
You'll note, that I don't, out of the blue, start posting about how dumb people who think the moon landing was faked are, or broadly painting an entire segment of society as dumb by association.
I'll note that you'll start posting about how the "moon landing is fake," go out of your way to ignore all arguments against your theories, and when the rest of us get bored of it you start going on about how amazing your arguments really are in what has so far always been a futile attempt to drive the discussion back to your prepared talking points.

Edited, Mar 14th 2017 9:15am by lolgaxe
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#99 Mar 14 2017 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, you're referring to a completely different event.


I'm referring to the one... wait for it... I was referring to. You know. Cause I'm the one who made the reference.

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Try actually reading my link next time instead of knee-jerk insisting people are wrong.


A link that was basically a story bringing up the issue again. You know. Just like I've pointed out repeatedly. So you're basically making an issue of the fact that Trump, while not holding any office, liked to pass along rumors and speculation like 99% of everyone else on social media? Wow. You're right. Let's send him right to the Gulag for that one! Cause we've never heard of someone passing along such things because they find them interesting, or amusing, or whatever. May as well just chuck out that whole 1st amendment while we're at it.

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Not getting your news from anywhere, etc.


I prefer to look at people's actions and how they affect others. You'll have to forgive me if I'm far more concerned with a president cherry picking which laws he'll enforce than I am with a president who once in the past questioned the validity of a document. I'll also point out something I've stated several times in the past on this forum, but apparently it bears repeating. Trump has an "interesting" way of communicating (and not necessarily "good" btw). He tends to make statements, or repeat statements others have made, not out of any personal agreement with that statement, but merely to create a reaction to the statement itself. He did this all through the campaign (both primary and general), where he'd say something just to stir the pot and generate a reaction. He'd say something totally ridiculous about one of his opponents, just because it forced them to address that narrative and blow a media cycle doing so.

I've also pointed out how this is historically a tactic used by the Left rather than the Right, which is perhaps why you aren't so familiar with it. I have, sadly, seen the same tactics used for decades by Liberal politicians, sometimes to great effect. Do we want to go examine how many years after the 2003 state of the union address Democratic politicians and their surrogates were still happily continuing to claim that Bush's statement about Iraq seeking to obtain Uranium was a lie, despite it long hence having been proven to be true (there are *still* people on the Left repeating that false claim btw). They make these false statements because they know that the harm they'll get for making them is tiny in comparison to the value in perpetuating the false belief among others.

So yeah. I see both in the same light, and I'm absolutely not excusing Trump for continuing to pass along such rumors. But here's the difference. When asked directly about it, he made a clear and unambiguous statement affirming Obama's citizenship status. Can we say the same about other false claims made by Liberals over the years? Did anyone in the media hound anyone on the Left and demand that they debunk the false claims about Bush? Nope. Because that would require that the media outlets themselves see value in debunking those, which they don't. They specifically see value in continuing the false beliefs. Again though, this is a tactic that I've seen for a long time being used on the Left and specifically against Conservatives and Republicans, so it's not shocking to me to see it here. For you? Maybe so. But that's because your "side" has not been on the receiving end of this sort of thing before.

As I've said before. Get used to this. I don't like it either, but this is how Trump operates. He will gleefully toss garbage out there in front of the public to distract them and waste media cycles when it's valuable for him to do so. And so far, it looks like the media has taken the bait every single time.
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#100 Mar 14 2017 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, you're referring to a completely different event.


I'm referring to the one... wait for it... I was referring to. You know. Cause I'm the one who made the reference.

You asked about people bringing it up in 2012 and thereafter. Sorry you need to frantically move the goalposts to avoid admitting you're wrong but them's the breaks:
Despite now pretending that we're talking about a single event in 2016, you actually wrote:
Do you recall anyone making this an issue during the 2012 election? Nope. I'm sure you can dig up the occasional fringe person digging up the old claim

Yes, I found a person. And you can try to dismiss him as a fringe lunatic but he's the so-called fringe lunatic who leads your political party so, uh, have a ball with that argument.
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#101 Mar 14 2017 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, you're referring to a completely different event.


I'm referring to the one... wait for it... I was referring to. You know. Cause I'm the one who made the reference.

You asked about people bringing it up in 2012 and thereafter. Sorry you need to frantically move the goalposts to avoid admitting you're wrong but them's the breaks


I was speaking about people in the media Joph. I even prefaced it with this comment:

gbaji wrote:
When was the last time you saw anything about this on a news channel, panel discussion on a political show, etc?


I was quite clearly speaking about the impact of such statements and the degree to which they were taken seriously.

Quote:
Despite now pretending that we're talking about a single event in 2016, you actually wrote:
Do you recall anyone making this an issue during the 2012 election? Nope. I'm sure you can dig up the occasional fringe person digging up the old claim

Yes, I found a person. And you can try to dismiss him as a fringe lunatic but he's the so-called fringe lunatic who leads your political party so, uh, have a ball with that argument.


Hehe. Um... He didn't write the story Joph. He read it, likely thought it was funny, as as part of his "stir the pot" bit I spoke of earlier, tweeted it. None of this at all tells us what Trump personally believed at any point along this. You do get that it's quite possible to link to an article that you find interesting or amusing, and not yourself believe in whatever said article/blog/whatever is saying (or even particularly care)

What's funny here is that I don't think you and I are as far off as you may think on this. The difference is that you see Trumps tweets and see a moron who believes in crazy conspiracy theories and can thus be dismissed as incompetent or whatever, all the while laughing at his "side". But I see Trump saying or repeating things as a deliberate means to change/shape the topic of discussion, or to build up the perception of something, even if it's unfounded. I don't think he at all believed or even cared about whether Obama was actually born in the US or not. He found value in raising the issue, so he did it. And if tweeting out articles about Obama's biographical data from 2007 and older saying he was born in Kenya, or theories about his birth certificate being a fake gained him something, he did that too.

Which is why I keep saying he's acting a lot like a liberal. Guess what? I also don't think most Democrats really care about racial diversity, or women's issues, or minority causes. They play lip service to these things because there's value to them in doing this. I could assume that all those politicians standing on the steps of congress making a big show of doing "hands up don't shoot" were actually just that stupid and got played by an obvious lie. But I give them credit for being smarter than that and conclude that they found political value in adopting the slogan and repeating it, so they did it. You think that Hollywood celebrity really cares about global warming, or starving kids in Africa, or whatever the cause of the moment is? Nope. It's great PR to make a big show of caring about those things though.

Trump is doing the same freaking thing. I've been trying to explain this to you for like a couple months now, but you're just not getting it. You're so caught up in trying to frame him in the stereotypical "dumb conservative" model that you're totally failing to see what's actually going on. It's dangerous and actually dumb to make the mistake of assuming that when politicians do this it's because they are honest true believers in <whatever> and can be judged based on that. I honestly have no clue what Trump thinks, or what he believes. I do think, however, that he's made a ton of money, built up a lot of success, and landed himself the presidency, all while doing those things that you think make him look stupid. Guess what? I thought the same thing during the primaries. I figured out that I was wrong somewhere along the line because what looks like random insanity somehow managed to obtain for him exactly that which he wants. We can all sit around and pretend that's just dumb luck, but I happen to think that's a bit foolish.


You're also still laboring under the false belief that I'm at all a fan of Trump. I'm just hoping that whatever crazy things he's doing actually result in some conservative positions being adopted along the way. I've already accepted that he's a Liberal in terms of methodology (which I hate frankly). That's already done, and there's nothing you or I can do to change that. What you keep trying to frame as me defending him, is really me disagreeing with your dismissal of him. SNL skits aside, he's not actually dumb. He's just very very good at getting people to misjudge him and then takes advantage of that fact.

So yeah. Don't do that. Just a suggestion.
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