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#702 Nov 26 2017 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Now, Trump has denied that the Access Hollywood tape is him, despite having previously admitted and apologized for the "Locker Room Talk" Smiley: facepalm

Vulture Article
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#703 Nov 27 2017 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe he just got confused between all those rounds of golf he wouldn't be able to play because he'd be too busy winning?
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#704 Nov 27 2017 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Guess he got as much mileage as he could out of complaining about not getting a thank you card from the shoplifters he freed in China. Wonder what he's trying to distract from this time.
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#705 Nov 27 2017 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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Well, there's the tax bill.
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#706 Nov 27 2017 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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How's that going anyway? I kind of lost track with the holiday and being sick and all. A few days away, and now everyone is outraged about other things. Makes it hard to keep up.
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#707 Nov 27 2017 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Senate bill is still up in the air. Senator Johnson (WI) is still against it because it favors corporations over small businesses and the three senators with the least to lose -- Flake, McCain & Corker -- all are from states where the bill has 25-30% support.

James O'Keefe's (the ACORN guy) group, Project Veritas, was caught trying to plant a fake story about Roy Moore in the Washington Post where a woman was impregnated by Moore at age 15 and forced to have an abortion. One might almost think that the right wing was trying desperately to discredit the Post and its stories about Moore's adventures in creepytown.
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#708 Nov 27 2017 at 10:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Now, Trump has denied that the Access Hollywood tape is him, despite having previously admitted and apologized for the "Locker Room Talk" Smiley: facepalm

Vulture Article


Sigh. That's conflating two different things. The voice on the recording is his. The words he said are his. What he's denying is that he ever actually did the things he was talking about on the recording. Those are not the same thing.

It was pretty clear to me upon hearing the entire recording (and reading the transcript), that he was not actually talking about his own behavior, but mocking what he saw as stock behavior by powerful men in Hollywood. A point that is downright prophetic given what's going on right now.

A first step to realizing that an article might not be 100% true is when it talks about what someone said, but doesn't actually provide a quote. Instead of saying "he's denying X", you need to quote him actually denying it. Otherwise, it's pure opinion or interpretation of what was said, and is likely subjective. And in the current media, it's probably *very* subjective.

As to Moore, it's an interesting issue. And another one where different things are being conflated into one. Which makes it tricky for Moore to deny, because some of the things may be true, but not illegal, while others are not true (and are illegal). But all of it can be embarrassing in any case and difficult to explain (which, I suppose is precisely why these sorts of allegations pop up right before an election).

There are basically two different claims. One is from 3 women claiming that Moore dated them when they were between the ages of 16 and 19 (different ages for different women). Note that the age of consent in Alabama was (and still is I believe) 16, so none of this is illegal. Also, this was in the late 70s, when an older man dating teens in that age range was not as socially unacceptable as it is today (so something that looks positively creepy by today's standards wasn't at the time, but good luck explaining that to the public now). Additionally, in all three cases, he didn't just sneak around and date these young women, he asked their mothers for permission to date them. And in two of the three, the mothers gave permission (enthusiastically, since he was considered a great potential marriage find - remember, this was a different time). In the third, the mother said no, and the relationship never progressed.

In all three cases, no sexual activity beyond kissing occurred. It's almost like a Leave it to Beaver style "dating", going on here. Very 1950s. And by all three accounts he behaved like a complete gentleman.

Which leads us to the fourth accusation. Which is jarring in that the behavior described is completely contradictory to the behavior with the other women. This is the one who claims that when she was 14, he got her phone number, called her, and had her sneak out of the house, picked her up on the street, and drove her to a house somewhere, and proceeded to be fairly sexually aggressive with her (no actual ***, but striping down to underwear and heavy petting). What's strange about this is how different the behavior is. That's not to say that he didn't do this, but it's odd that he behaved one very consistent way with the other young women, but not this one. You'd think someone with such predatory motives would have at least attempted to be more aggressive with the women he was actually on dates with, and who were legal, and wouldn't have needed to sneak around with. Dunno, it's just strange to me.

And while I'm hesitant to bring it up, the backgrounds of the women are dramatically different as well. The one who's making the claim about her being 14 when they were involved also had a series of difficult years in her teens and 20s, had addiction problems, a series of self destructive behaviors, a series of bad relationships, etc. Again, it's possible that she's telling the compete truth, but it's also possible that when a reporter went around the town following up on rumors about Moore being known for dating teens when he was in his early 30s, that in addition to the open and known relationships he did have, said reporter found one woman who decided to blame her life's troubles on a prominent politician. No way to know for sure.


What I find is that the stories of the other three women, instead of acting as support for the fourth woman's claims, actually act in a way to call it into question. Again, the described behavior is completely different. Like all she knew was that he was being investigated for having relationships with young women, that there were other women "coming forward", and she made up her own story of abuse assuming it would match up. But it really doesn't. Her story is completely different than those of the other three women. IMO, they don't corroborate anything at all. Doubly so given that one of the women reported that she first met him when she was 14 and working as a Santa's Helper at the mall, and that he told her she was cute/pretty/whatever (can't remember the exact word atm), but didn't proposition her, or ask for a number or a date. And when they met later when she was 16, she told him that she'd met him before (remember this was a town with less than 50k people, and he was well known), he didn't remember her or that encounter at all. You'd think, if he had some thing for 14 year old girls, that he would have moved on her then, and not when she was 16 (and thus legal to date).


His behavior seems pretty consistently to have been about dating young women who were of legal age, and doing the gentlemanly thing of asking permission of their mothers to date them, and behaving properly while on those dates. So yeah, the one outlier is really an outlier. Which calls it into question. The problem is that in the public eye, it's hard to make that distinction. The media simply conflates him "dating multiple underaged women", when that's not actually true. There exactly one and only one claim of him engaging in illegal sexual activity with an underaged woman. One. Not four. Just one. But he's in a position of being demanded to either admit or deny the entire set of allegations. The fact is that the other three have no bearing at all on anything. They don't support anything. They're fluff added to the one real allegation of wrongdoing, designed to make it appear to have greater weight than it actually does. Once you peel that away, and ignore the half-truths and hysteria, that one allegation looks pretty darn weak.


But that's just my opinion.
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#710 Nov 28 2017 at 12:49 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Now, Trump has denied that the Access Hollywood tape is him, despite having previously admitted and apologized for the "Locker Room Talk" Smiley: facepalm

Vulture Article


Sigh. That's conflating two different things. The voice on the recording is his. The words he said are his. What he's denying is that he ever actually did the things he was talking about on the recording. Those are not the same thing.


There was a quote in the Vulture article, and it is also in this Vanity Fair Article:
Vanity Fair Link
Quote:
He suggested to a senator earlier this year that it was not authentic, and repeated that claim to an adviser more recently.


Vanity Fair Article Subtitle wrote:
He privately told two White House members that he doubts the tape’s authenticity


gbaji wrote:
It was pretty clear to me upon hearing the entire recording (and reading the transcript), that he was not actually talking about his own behavior, but mocking what he saw as stock behavior by powerful men in Hollywood.
That is a unique and novel way to look at it. I don't recall you reacting this way, but I don't read about 99% of your posts, so you may have stated that previously, I honestly wouldn't know. Or care.
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#711 Nov 28 2017 at 1:13 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Which leads us to the fourth accusation. Which is jarring in that the behavior described is completely contradictory to the behavior with the other women. This is the one who claims that when she was 14, he got her phone number, called her, and had her sneak out of the house, picked her up on the street, and drove her to a house somewhere, and proceeded to be fairly sexually aggressive with her (no actual ***, but striping down to underwear and heavy petting). What's strange about this is how different the behavior is. That's not to say that he didn't do this, but it's odd that he behaved one very consistent way with the other young women, but not this one. You'd think someone with such predatory motives would have at least attempted to be more aggressive with the women he was actually on dates with, and who were legal, and wouldn't have needed to sneak around with. Dunno, it's just strange to me.


ITT: gbaji pretends to have never been exposed to any knowledge of or study about how sex predators operate.

Edited, Nov 28th 2017 12:15am by Bijou
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#712 Nov 28 2017 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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ITT: gbaji pretends to have never been exposed to any knowledge of or study about how sex predators operate.
Using your position of authority to get teens to touch you and stalking around malls is just the very definition of gentlemanly behavior, good sir.
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#713 Nov 28 2017 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
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I especially like how there were people who were told to keep him away from the cheerleaders, because he was so normal for the times, and so respectful, what with parental permission and all.
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#714 Nov 28 2017 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Sigh. That's conflating two different things. The voice on the recording is his. The words he said are his. What he's denying is that he ever actually did the things he was talking about on the recording. Those are not the same thing.

LOL no. God, you're the very definition of "useful idiot". So sure that you're smarter than the class, so easily manipulated by morons.
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#715 Nov 28 2017 at 11:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Still surprised that people are in such an uproar about the allegations. At some point you'd figure it's normal for politicians to have these kinds of issues. It's a problem a lot of people have, and politicians in-particular seem to have more than ample representation. So much of politics is about dominance, power, and popularity. To be successful enough to rise to the national scene requires a certain aptitude and obsession with those qualities to the point that there's bound to be some spillover to the point it causes relationship issues. You see it time and time again. Successful politicians really aren't normal people.

I mean just sticking to current leaders: You got a guy here, who at minimum has some really disturbing behavior around teens, and is possibly a pedophile. You have someone like Mr. Clinton who has a long list of affairs and rape allegations. There's Tim Murphy who had to resign after having an affair and encouraging an abortion, despite being firmly anti-abortion. You have creepy uncle Joe Biden who's way too touchy-feely at times. There's Franken who seems to have issues knowing when something isn't funny any more. Trump is a jerk to women in many ways. The list could go on and on if we let it; there's even a wikipedia list if anyone is interested.

If Roy Moore really messed up, he'll get replaced anyway. He's a figurehead for a political ideology, nothing more. People aren't going to stop being Republicans if it turns out he's a criminal, just like people didn't switch parties after it turned out Weiner liked sexting with underaged girls. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Nov 28th 2017 9:44am by someproteinguy
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#716 Nov 28 2017 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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They should be investigated and punished for their behavior. It's just fun watching the lengths people are going to defend Moore compared to Franken.
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#717 Nov 28 2017 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah with people like Murphy or Franken there seems to be a bit of taking responsibility. They were a little less serious offenses, and there seemed to be at least the appearance of an honest effort to reform or be accountable for the behavior. Which is about the best you can hope for after the fact at least.

Of course, I said the same thing about Weiner before it turned out he didn't stop. Smiley: rolleyes

Moore being in the middle of an election just makes the antics all the more amusing. Suppose it'll all get sorted out afterwards, but in the mean time there's a precious senate seat not to lose. Potential Democratic senators being worse the pedophilia accusations and such.

Oh well.

Smiley: popcorn

Edited, Nov 28th 2017 9:56am by someproteinguy
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#718 Nov 28 2017 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
People aren't going to stop being Republicans if it turns out he's a criminal, just like people didn't switch parties after it turned out Weiner liked sexting with underaged girls. Smiley: rolleyes

They did, however, roundly reject Weiner in his New York City mayoral run over his second sexting scandal and that was well before the underage thing when the entire scandal was "acted shitty towards his wife" (no underage, no coercion, no assault, etc). Well before the underage scandal, Weiner was already politically dead for the past year or two.

Edited, Nov 28th 2017 11:55am by Jophiel
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#719 Nov 28 2017 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
People aren't going to stop being Republicans if it turns out he's a criminal, just like people didn't switch parties after it turned out Weiner liked sexting with underaged girls. Smiley: rolleyes

They did, however, roundly reject Weiner in his New York City mayoral run over his second sexting scandal and that was well before the underage thing when the entire scandal was "acted shitty towards his wife" (no underage, no coercion, no assault, etc). Well before the underage scandal, Weiner was already politically dead for the past year or two.
But it's not like the electorate really changes. At best you get a 1-term senator who's politically dead the minute someone non-compromised runs against them. They'll likely be moderate at best in their voting record and will probably spend more time than wanted compromising with Republicans; all while the majority of Alabama voters will now have someone representing them who doesn't share their values. Pretty ****** situation for them, not that having your closely held values trumpeted by a pedophile is really any better, of course. Smiley: rolleyes
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#720 Nov 28 2017 at 1:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, they overwhelmingly chose Moore to be their candidate. I guess you decide which matter more to you and vote from there. I fully expect Moore to win regardless. To be honest, if a Republican candidate actively raped someone while running for office and won because "Well, she's probably lying anyway and what about tax cuts?", I wouldn't be surprised.

And yes, I specify Republican because I legitimately would be more surprised to see it pass on the Democratic side -- especially in this day and age. There's a reason why we're seeing a movement against sexual harassment/assault in Liberal Hollywood and Liberal Silicon Valley and not Conservative Wall Street and it's not a lack of harassment in the financial sector. Likewise, Franken voluntarily acquiesces to an ethics investigation whereas Moore & Trump circle the wagons with "They're all liars!" and people like No Such Thing As Date Rape Gbaji spin up "I'm just askin' questions" excuses as to why they can't be real. There's two very different levels of tolerance for this behavior right now depending on where you stand.
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#721 Nov 28 2017 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
James O'Keefe's (the ACORN guy) group, Project Veritas, was caught trying to plant a fake story about Roy Moore in the Washington Post where a woman was impregnated by Moore at age 15 and forced to have an abortion. One might almost think that the right wing was trying desperately to discredit the Post and its stories about Moore's adventures in creepytown.

Haha, that's gold
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#722 Nov 28 2017 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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The cartoon at the bottom sums it up nicely. There's some good money to be made here. It would probably be un-American not to try to profit at least.

Maybe we can get EA and Disney in on it and market it to kids...

Edited, Nov 28th 2017 1:21pm by someproteinguy
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#723 Nov 28 2017 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
There was a quote in the Vulture article, and it is also in this Vanity Fair Article:
Vanity Fair Link
Quote:
He suggested to a senator earlier this year that it was not authentic, and repeated that claim to an adviser more recently.


Vanity Fair Article Subtitle wrote:
He privately told two White House members that he doubts the tape’s authenticity


I'll repeat my point: Which Senator? What is this Senator's name? Is there a quote? Which two White House members? What are their names? Is there a quote?

You have what is basically repeated rumors here. Totally unsubstantiated. So you have him on record saying "Yeah. That's my voice", but instead of just accepting that public statement and moving on, we're going to find someone who told someone, somewhere, sometime, that Trump secretly, maybe, possibly, said he thought it wasn't. And we're going to make hay out of that? Seriously?

What's really strange about this is the volume of buzz being generated about this right now, of all times. So allegedly, back in January or something, Trump supposedly said to someone something about maybe the tape being faked, but that person isn't saying this, someone else who overheard it, or talked to someone who did, is now running around repeating this. And this is the big story we're going to talk about on the media now? Today? Why? Complete with late night talk hosts face palming over the alleged denials.

Um... Why not just ask Trump? You'd think that would solve the issue. Nope. Let's speculate that this rumor must be true, act on it as though it's true, and engage in loud hysterical bits about it. Cause... Drama! Wow. Just... wow.

Quote:
gbaji wrote:
It was pretty clear to me upon hearing the entire recording (and reading the transcript), that he was not actually talking about his own behavior, but mocking what he saw as stock behavior by powerful men in Hollywood.
That is a unique and novel way to look at it. I don't recall you reacting this way, but I don't read about 99% of your posts, so you may have stated that previously, I honestly wouldn't know. Or care.


Strangely, I can't actually find a thread on here with us discussing it, although I'm pretty sure we did (I'll choose to blame the search function). I know for a fact that my very first reaction to the news was to listen to the entire recording, and read a transcript of said recording. It was very obvious to me that he was mocking how Hollywood men treat women, with a side dash of criticizing women in Hollywood who enable that behavior by either looking the other way, or allowing it to happen in order to further their careers.

I always saw this as him talking the talk for a bit for fun with Billy, then switching to an outside voice looking back in on that mentality towards women, with a more negative tone (he switches to talking about what "you" can do if you are a big star, which is where the whole "grab them by the *****" bit came in. Dunno. That's just how I saw it at the time. Yes. The language is harsh, and certainly not presidential (although, this was well before he ever considered running for any sort of office), but I never got that this was something he believed in or how he personally behaved. The tone of his voice is pretty sarcastic while he's speaking as well. And almost dismissive, like he's looking down on the Hollywood culture, even while trying to fit in (which was basically what he was trying to do back in 2005).

Edited, Dec 1st 2017 3:30pm by gbaji
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#724 Nov 28 2017 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Yep, all those ladies in the dressing rooms knew that he was just spotlighting the horrible people in the entertainment industry.

Tasha Dixon wrote:
"He just came strolling right in," Dixon said. "There was no second to put a robe on or any sort of clothing or anything. Some girls were topless. Others girls were naked."


Link

Sorry you are so scared.

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#725 Nov 28 2017 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I'll repeat my point: Which Senator? What is this Senator's name? Is there a quote? Which two White House members? What are their names? Is there a quote?


Never heard of a trusted source asking to remain anonymous because of a fear of backlash? I would have assumed you would know all about all the different forms of fear, and how you can protect yourself from them. But, whatever, let's not trust any news source except the wild gbaji's high-value opinions.

EDIT: Erroneous carriage return in the quote made it ugly. Well, esthetically at least., the sentiment in the quote is still pretty ugly.

Edited, Nov 28th 2017 7:59pm by stupidmonkey
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#726 Nov 29 2017 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Um... Why not just ask 45?
Because the word of a guy that tries to sell steaks in magazines might not be all that reliable?
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