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#1252 May 02 2018 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Even if we were to suspend disbelief and grant the assumption it was true, what good would it do anyone to point it out?

Paul Ryan? Probably none. But that wouldn't stop it from being reported in Developing World Investment Weekly or elsewhere outside the sphere of Politico. Last I checked, even the New York Times and Wall Street Journal still have business sections.
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#1253 May 02 2018 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I mean, it kind of has as an entire package. For example: here, or here.

Problem with teasing out anything about this particular piece of the pie is that a lot of attention in business journals is being paid to foreign investment in the United States as a result of the corporate tax rate cuts, which is a much bigger deal (especially so to their readers). Less attention is being paid to what the tax cuts on the wealthy would mean (and the two aren't going to be entirely unrelated). Where is that money going to be spent, invested, etc as that's a smaller piece of the pie. We could make assumptions based off of larger trends (i.e. an increased spending on real estate, education, charitable giving, pensions/retirement, etc among the wealthy) and assume those would continue. Obviously these aren't going to be amazing numbers or anything, but a few billion extra in outflow here and there each year isn't nothing either.

Really though, this is just something I saw as a silver lining. I'm not operating under the assumption the tax cuts are a secret surrogate foreign aid program or anything like that.

Also watch out for that national debt. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, May 2nd 2018 2:38pm by someproteinguy
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#1254 May 03 2018 at 2:06 AM Rating: Good
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have never said I had no problem with those situations.
You just go ahead and link a post here proving that, or own it.
Smiley: lol What? Listen, I think gbaji is full of **** most of the time too, but maybe this one is on you to prove that he has said it.

For him to prove he's never said it, he'd have to post every post he's ever made on the topic, whereas for you to prove he has said it would only require you posting one where he did. One of these seems far more reasonable than the other.

Not to mention, one of them leads to the rest of us reading less gbajirrhea. Add in that last bit and its your duty to all of us to prove it, not his to disprove it.
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#1255 May 03 2018 at 7:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
For him to prove he's never said it, he'd have to post every post he's ever made on the topic

=4 is my cite!

Giuliani is helpfully admitting that the Daniels payments by Cohen were known by Trump (previously denied). This is notable because if the payment had nothing to do with the campaign, it may not be a campaign finance violation and unintentional violations (such as bookkeeping errors) generally warrant fines whereas intentional acts can merit criminal investigations.

But sure! Just like Lewinsky!

Edited, May 3rd 2018 9:00am by Jophiel
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#1256 May 03 2018 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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Except didn't Giuliani say that Cohen made it disappear for the campaign? Or something close;
Giuliani wrote:
But then moments later, Giuliani noted the political reason for the payment. “Imagine if that came out of October 15, 2016, in the middle of the last debate with Hillary Clinton…” he said. “Cohen made it go away. He did his job.”


And Kelly Anne's husband tweeted the following, in response to that:
fec.gov wrote:
'If any person, including a relative or friend of the candidate, gives or loans the candidate money for the purpose of influencing any election for federal office, the funds are not considered personal funds of the candidate even if they are given to the candidate directly. Instead, the gift or loan is considered a contribution from the donor to the campaign, subject to the per-election limit and reportable by the campaign. This is true even if the candidate uses the funds for personal living expenses while campaigning.’
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#1257 May 03 2018 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, I see what you're saying. Same team!
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#1258 May 03 2018 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have never said I had no problem with those situations.
You just go ahead and link a post here proving that, or own it.


I'm going to assume this was a joke. It was, right? If not, then I guess I'll just get right on that task of providing a link showing me not saying something. Just wait for it. Check's in the mail. Etc, etc...
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#1259 May 03 2018 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
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Oh, it'll work this time. Definitely. Or *next* time. For sure.
You don't have to actually succeed at anything so long as you can convince people that trying was good enough.


This was the basis of most of the Obama administration's policy. Spectacularly so.
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#1260 May 03 2018 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have never said I had no problem with those situations.
You just go ahead and link a post here proving that, or own it.


I'm going to assume this was a joke. It was, right? If not, then I guess I'll just get right on that task of providing a link showing me not saying something. Just wait for it. Check's in the mail. Etc, etc...


Here is the post proving that!
gbaji wrote:
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#1261 May 03 2018 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Given your repeated posts about how people are going to flip on Trump "like any day now. Ok, any day... NOW. Hmmm... Ok, maybe this time?"

Uh, we know of multiple people who have flipped (Gates, Flynn, Papadopoulos, Pinedo). The only US indictment who hasn't flipped so far is Manafort. But you generally don't find out that they've flipped until the prosecutor has gotten what they need from them. That's kind of Flipping 101.


You're playing games broadening and then narrowing the definition of "flip" to suit whichever argument you're making at the moment. Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that to "flip" someone means to get a deal in which they agree to provide tangible evidence of Russian collusion (remember that this is supposedly the purpose of the investigation) against Trump, or others closely placed to Trump in his administration/campaign.

The fact that multiple people have entered pleas does not mean that they have "flipped" in this context. Agreeing to "cooperate with the investigation" does not mean that said cooperation actually bears the kind of fruit that you seem to be assuming it will (or has). We wont know for sure until the investigation completes, but so far there's nothing beyond speculation as to the nature of whatever "assistance" may have been provided.

Here's a link with a breakdown of folks who've made deals. Notable quotes:

Quote:
None of the charges against Americans or Trump advisers so far have directly alleged that they worked with Russia to interfere with the campaign.


Quote:
Other reported focuses of Mueller’s investigation — such as the hacking and leaking of prominent Democrats’ emails and potential obstruction of justice by the Trump administration — have not resulted in any indictments yet.


Quote:
So far, no Trump associates have been specifically charged with any crimes relating to helping Russia interfere with the 2016 election.


The point here is that of the four people actually connected in any way to Trump the charge for two of them has been lying about conversation with Russians (which, as I've explained earlier, is something that happens when people are in an environment where the media narrative is that any conversation with a Russian is proof of something horrible). Also no evidence that the conversations themselves were illegal, nor of a nature which supported the claim of "collusion". The other two were Gates and Manafort and had to do with actions they took years before coming anywhere near the Trump campaign.

Silly me. I'm speaking specifically about the objective of the investigation. When you say "they're going to flip so and so", the assumption is that said "flip" will lead the investigation forwards with regards to the thing they are investigating. Calling these people's actions "flips" is using an overly broad definition of the term. You have repeatedly asserted that their plea deals will somehow result in proof of wrongdoing by Trump or his campaign (I believe you've directly made statements like "flip on him", where I assume "him" is Trump) with regards to improper interactions with the Russians during the election, but the facts we have so far show that this just isn't the case. Wishful thinking aside, all we're getting is more side stuff.

Quote:
Honestly, I know you revel in your ignorance and stuff but maybe buy a newspaper.


Or, I don't know, not read more into what is written than what's actually there? Just a thought.

I'll make the same prediction again that I've made all along. When this investigation finally winds down, there will be indictments. But there will be none that directly relate to the idea of "collusion with Russians to affect the election" (whatever statute one could even apply that to btw). It will be the same side stuff we've seen all along. A perjury charge here. Obstruction charge there. Some unrelated stuff "discovered" along the way. But nothing that proves anything relating to the original purpose of the investigation.


Which leads us right back to why I disagree with these types of investigations and special prosecutors. They virtually never actually find what they were created to look for and create a massive amount of political hay along the way. One might suspect that the primary purpose for creating one isn't to actually find proof of the given allegation, but just to have the political impact of the investigation itself. You put the administration on the defensive for a few years as a result. Again, same deal with the Plame investigation. It's a BS move, and we the public should really start questioning it's use.

And yeah. They constitute a fishing expedition. When the majority of the charges that results are things "discovered along the way", it supports the idea that gaining the ability to make those discoveries might just be the actual purpose of the investigation itself. The original allegation is just the excuse to launch it in the first place. At least, that's how I see it, and frankly how most people outside the liberal bubble see it.

Edited, May 3rd 2018 4:08pm by gbaji
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#1262 May 03 2018 at 6:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Given your repeated posts about how people are going to flip on Trump "like any day now. Ok, any day... NOW. Hmmm... Ok, maybe this time?"

Uh, we know of multiple people who have flipped (Gates, Flynn, Papadopoulos, Pinedo). The only US indictment who hasn't flipped so far is Manafort. But you generally don't find out that they've flipped until the prosecutor has gotten what they need from them. That's kind of Flipping 101.
You're playing games broadening and then narrowing the definition of "flip" to suit whichever argument you're making at the moment. Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that to "flip" someone means to get a deal in which they agree to provide tangible evidence of Russian collusion (remember that this is supposedly the purpose of the investigation) against Trump, or others closely placed to Trump in his administration/campaign.

lolwut?

"Flip" means that they're cooperating with the investigation to give Mueller whatever information they can provide in exchange for leniency from the prosecution and judge, not whatever bullshit pretend definition you're trying to make up here Smiley: laugh
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#1263 May 03 2018 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:

"Flip" means that they're cooperating with the investigation to give Mueller whatever information they can provide in exchange for leniency from the prosecution and judge, not whatever bullshit pretend definition you're trying to make up here Smiley: laugh


Well, the post you quoted and replied to did have gbaji saying "flip on Trump" not just flip on what ever other thing.
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#1264 May 03 2018 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

And yeah. They constitute a fishing expedition. When the majority of the charges that results are things "discovered along the way", it supports the idea that gaining the ability to make those discoveries might just be the actual purpose of the investigation itself. The original allegation is just the excuse to launch it in the first place. At least, that's how I see it, and frankly how most people outside the liberal bubble see it.


It's funny that you don't think the actual purpose of the investigation is legitimate, despite the corroborating evidence so far. None of it is a smoking gun, but there is definitely something that needs to be discovered. The stuff along the way is like the b-story in a soap opera.
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#1265 May 03 2018 at 7:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
Well, the post you quoted and replied to did have gbaji saying "flip on Trump" not just flip on what ever other thing.

Well, Mueller is investigating the Trump campaign as part of the broader look into Russian interference. I thought it was pretty obvious that "whatever information they can provide" is in relation to that even if it's not "OMG This proves all collusion forever 100%" which seems to be the standard Gbaji is shooting for. They were all being investigated as a result of their connections to the Trump campaign. "Flipped on Trump" is wholly accurate.
gbaji wrote:
The fact that multiple people have entered pleas does not mean that they have "flipped" in this context. Agreeing to "cooperate with the investigation" does not mean that said cooperation actually bears the kind of fruit that you seem to be assuming it will (or has). We wont know for sure until the investigation completes, but so far there's nothing beyond speculation as to the nature of whatever "assistance" may have been provided.

Just entering a plea doesn't mean someone has flipped. No one has claimed that though either. It's a strawman. We know that Papadopoulos, Gates, Flynn and Pinedo are all working (or worked, he might be done with them by now) with Mueller on the investigation. Trying to scramble for "But we don't know what kind of assistance they could provide!" is silly. For one thing, they don't bother with you pleading down if you have nothing to offer and, for another, even if they barely knew anything at all they still flipped. As I said prior, every US indictment with the exception of Manafort has flipped. Gbaji's previous schtick about how I keep hoping these guys will flip but they never do is either based on his ignorance (90% likely) or him just intentionally ignoring the facts (wouldn't put it past him but history really leans towards 'had no idea').
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#1266 May 03 2018 at 11:31 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have never said I had no problem with those situations.
You just go ahead and link a post here proving that, or own it.
I'm going to assume this was a joke. It was, right? If not, then I guess I'll just get right on that task of providing a link showing me not saying something. Just wait for it. Check's in the mail. Etc, etc...
Yeah, you spotted it. Kind of a twist on your usual style of expecting people here to thread their way through some complex, usually unworkable, scenario you set up or be considered wrong (by you) because of the unreasonable standard you try to set.

So I'm not a professional comedian. Sue me.
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#1267 May 04 2018 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
gbaji wrote:

And yeah. They constitute a fishing expedition. When the majority of the charges that results are things "discovered along the way", it supports the idea that gaining the ability to make those discoveries might just be the actual purpose of the investigation itself. The original allegation is just the excuse to launch it in the first place. At least, that's how I see it, and frankly how most people outside the liberal bubble see it.


It's funny that you don't think the actual purpose of the investigation is legitimate, despite the corroborating evidence so far. None of it is a smoking gun, but there is definitely something that needs to be discovered. The stuff along the way is like the b-story in a soap opera.


Smiley: lol


Looks like the purpose was legitimate, and not a fishing expedition.
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#1268 May 04 2018 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
This was the basis of most of the Obama administration's policy.
It's the basis of all administrations.
gbaji wrote:
Here's a link with a breakdown of folks who've made deals. Notable quotes:
The most notable quote on that page is "That we know of."
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#1269 May 04 2018 at 7:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, Gbaji has a quaint idea of how the system works.

Edit: In other news, Trump's new excuse for the Stormy Daniels payment was that, yeah, he wrote Cohen a $130,000 check but he had no idea what he was writing it for and is now as surprised as anyone to learn that he was repaying his lawyer for paying off a porn star.

Edited, May 4th 2018 10:28am by Jophiel
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#1270 May 04 2018 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Or, I don't know, not read more into what is written than what's actually there? Just a thought.
What?! Aren't you usually telling people they need to read between the lines and not just read everything word for word?
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#1271 May 04 2018 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
but he had no idea what he was writing it for and is now as surprised as anyone to learn that he was repaying his lawyer for paying off a porn star.
Personally, someone writing $130k checks that they have no idea what they are for makes me more worried about having them as President than them writing a check as hush money.
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#1272 May 04 2018 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, Gbaji has a quaint idea of how the system works.

Edit: In other news, Trump's new excuse for the Stormy Daniels payment was that, yeah, he wrote Cohen a $130,000 check but he had no idea what he was writing it for and is now as surprised as anyone to learn that he was repaying his lawyer for paying off a porn star.

Edited, May 4th 2018 10:28am by Jophiel


Truly remarkable as it's the only time he's ever paid anyone without being sued first.
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#1273 May 04 2018 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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When is all of this going to end?
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#1274 May 04 2018 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Kuwoobie wrote:
When is all of this going to end?

Revelation?
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#1275 May 07 2018 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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I hope never.

Say what you will, but 45's election has really let loose the dogs of ridiculousness.

Edited, May 7th 2018 11:42am by lolgaxe
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#1276 May 08 2018 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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