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#1277 May 08 2018 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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In other news, trump just advanced Iran's nuclear program by ten years. Well done.
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#1278 May 08 2018 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Well, the post you quoted and replied to did have gbaji saying "flip on Trump" not just flip on what ever other thing.

Well, Mueller is investigating the Trump campaign as part of the broader look into Russian interference. ... blah blah blah... "Flipped on Trump" is wholly accurate.


Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The fact that multiple people have entered pleas does not mean that they have "flipped" in this context. Agreeing to "cooperate with the investigation" does not mean that said cooperation actually bears the kind of fruit that you seem to be assuming it will (or has). We wont know for sure until the investigation completes, but so far there's nothing beyond speculation as to the nature of whatever "assistance" may have been provided.

Just entering a plea doesn't mean someone has flipped. No one has claimed that though either. It's a strawman.


Um.... It sure seems as though that's what you''ve been claiming though.


Jophiel wrote:
We know that Papadopoulos, Gates, Flynn and Pinedo are all working (or worked, he might be done with them by now) with Mueller on the investigation. ... blah blah blah... As I said prior, every US indictment with the exception of Manafort has flipped.


So... "flipped on Trump"? Isn't that exactly what I said you had claimed, which you insisted you didn't? Only... now you're confirming that this is precisely what you actually did mean all along? Smiley: confused


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Gbaji's previous schtick about how I keep hoping these guys will flip but they never do is either based on his ignorance (90% likely) or him just intentionally ignoring the facts (wouldn't put it past him but history really leans towards 'had no idea').


Because you keep going on about how they have "flipped" based solely on the fact that they entered pleas, which you assume means they "flipped on Trump". Heck. You more or less just repeated that entire logical progression in your post. WTF?

All we know is that they have entered pleas. If your claim that a plea doesn't prove "flip" is correct, then we can't say if they have flipped or not. Yet, that's what you keep insisting has happened. Repeatedly. Even while denying you are doing this (which I find *really* bizarre).

And my point (to answer someone's question) is that this "plea == flip" is more or less the only "evidence" that has been gained along the process of this investigation. So far, we are aware of absolutely zero that proves anything remotely like the claimed "collusion with Russians", which was supposed to be the point of the investigation.

Sure seems shaky to me.

Edited, May 8th 2018 5:04pm by gbaji
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#1279 May 08 2018 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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No, "working with"= "flipped". Not just plea. If I'm in the Mafia and I get arrested and I just plea guilty, that doesn't mean that I flipped.

Each of those people are/were actively cooperating with Mueller. Not just "Whelp, you got me, I'm guilty whatever; give me my sentence so Trump can pardon me". This honestly isn't a difficult concept. I honestly suspect the only reason why you're pretending otherwise is embarrassment at your ignorance when you said...
Quote:
Given your repeated posts about how people are going to flip on Trump "like any day now. Ok, any day... NOW. Hmmm... Ok, maybe this time?"
...since I know you had no idea how many people were cooperating with the investigation. But who knows, maybe you really are this confused about how things work. That would explain a lot.

Edited, May 8th 2018 7:46pm by Jophiel
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#1280 May 08 2018 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
No, "working with"= "flipped". Not just plea. If I'm in the Mafia and I get arrested and I just plea guilty, that doesn't mean that I flipped.


Ok. But you're still playing word games though because every single plea includes "cooperating with the investigation", which more or less automatically meets your stated criteria for "working with", which also meets your criteria for "flipping on Trump".

Which leave us back to you assuming that each and every single one of these people has "flipped on Trump", with the assumed meaning that they must have some information proving Trump (or someone close to Trump in the campaign) being involved in "colluding with the Russians". Which is exactly the part that I don't see, and which I label as "wishful thinking" on your part.

Quote:
Each of those people are/were actively cooperating with Mueller.


Yeah. Um... That's what kinda happens as part of a plea agreement. It's an incredibly broad statement Joph. It does not mean "has valuable information critical to the furtherance of the investigation". It simply means that they're not pleading the 5th, or otherwise lawyering up. Again, my issue is with your continued assumption that if someone enters a plea and "agrees to cooperate with the investigation" that it must mean that they have evidence linking Trump to Russian collusion.

I think that's a very flawed assumption. And if the history of these sorts of investigations is any indicator, is likely 100% wrong.

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Not just "Whelp, you got me, I'm guilty whatever; give me my sentence so Trump can pardon me". This honestly isn't a difficult concept.


No. It's not. And most of us get the concept that there's a huge range of "cooperating with the prosecution" that does not have to include having evidence key to proving the guilt of a specific target the prosecution would like to go after. There's a huge cart before the horse aspect to this. You want there to be evidence out there, somewhere, that links Trump to some form of "Russian collusion", so you interpret every single plea as more evidence that there must be such evidence because, hey, why else would they give them a deal if they didn't have anything on Trump, right?

An alternative explanation is that the whole thing is about political damage, and the point is exactly to get people like you to make that assumption, and in the end we'll find little or no actual charges file, and none at all directly related to "Russian collusion". I'll again point to the Plame investigation. Surely you recall all of the people who were brought in for questioning, then brought in again, and all of the media interpretation of how "that looks bad for the Bush administration because they surely would not be doing that if they didn't think it would lead to something". Remember how it all lead to absolutely nothing at all?


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I honestly suspect the only reason why you're pretending otherwise is embarrassment at your ignorance when you said...
Quote:
Given your repeated posts about how people are going to flip on Trump "like any day now. Ok, any day... NOW. Hmmm... Ok, maybe this time?"
...since I know you had no idea how many people were cooperating with the investigation. But who knows, maybe you really are this confused about how things work. That would explain a lot.


Because I don't equate "cooperating with the investigation" as "flipping on Trump". I thought I'd already made that abundantly clear with my previous posts. My entire point is that I think you are getting well ahead of your skis by making that assumption. Yet you keep doing it, over and over. And you use that assumption to believe that the investigation must be making progress or something. My prediction is that there is no progress, certainly not in the direction of detecting, much less proving, collusion with the Russians. It's all smoke, and no fire.

It may certainly be progress towards finding yet another victim to rake over the coals, and threaten with some unrelated charges so they can get a plea from them, and then maybe move on to the next person with the next unrelated thing. But in the end, none of it will have anything to do with Russian collusion. Because none of it has so far. They literally have two people who did nothing other than make the mistake of lying about whether they merely had a conversation with a Russian (but no wrongdoing in the nature of the conversations themselves), and two people who were engaged in business dealings years before joining the campaign which skirted the letter of the law (tax filing status essentially). Um... Also with no evidence or even claim of them having "colluded with the Russians to rig the election".

So your assumption that any of this will lead back to said collusion is based on ... what? Nothing, right? Wishful thinking? Yeah. I think that's about it.
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#1281 May 08 2018 at 8:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Because I don't equate "cooperating with the investigation" as "flipping on Trump".

No one cares if you don't. That's exactly what it means. I fully understand why you refuse to accept this but that doesn't change reality.
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#1282 May 09 2018 at 8:20 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
In other news, trump just advanced Iran's nuclear program by ten years. Well done.
I'm kind of hoping that the rest of the whole world can kind of keep that in check, but the real loss is in credibility. If we're just going to make and break deals based solely on who is in office then why should anyone enter in any future deals with us?
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#1283 May 09 2018 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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Say what you will, but 45's election has really let loose the dogs of ridiculousness.


It has normalized ridiculousness. It has made it ok for Joe Redneck white trash scum to run for office and actually win. It has emboldened the lowest walks of life to crawl out of their caves and pretend to wear clothes and stand among human beings. Every president after this, as well as every American citizen, now has free reign to act like a total slob because now we all know they can get away with it.
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#1284 May 09 2018 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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From a subscription-only posting on Political Wire:
Quote:
Yesterday’s reports that Cohen received payments from a Russian oligarch suddenly linked him to the broader Russian investigation.

Similarly, news that a major U.S. telecommunications firm, a subsidiary of a Swiss pharmaceutical giant, and a South Korean aerospace corporation also paid money to Cohen raises questions as to what they wanted from him. One of the companies said it was to “provide insights” into the new administration. However, Cohen is not a registered lobbyist or a registered foreign agent.

All of these payments flowed into Essential Consultants, a limited liability company Cohen controlled and created shortly before Election Day to make a $130,000 “hush payment” to Stormy Daniels.

But what’s missing from most of the news coverage is that Cohen was also the deputy finance chairman of the Republican National Committee when these payments were made.

It also came out that Mueller had been investigating Cohen and Essential Consultants since last fall at least. But remember, the FBI raid was just "fishing".

Edited, May 9th 2018 10:48am by Jophiel
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#1285 May 09 2018 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Whoever is charged with continually correcting the GOP narrative must be feeling good about their job security right now.
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#1286 May 09 2018 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
No, "working with"= "flipped". Not just plea. If I'm in the Mafia and I get arrested and I just plea guilty, that doesn't mean that I flipped.

Each of those people are/were actively cooperating with Mueller. Not just "Whelp, you got me, I'm guilty whatever; give me my sentence so Trump can pardon me". This honestly isn't a difficult concept. I honestly suspect the only reason why you're pretending otherwise is embarrassment at your ignorance when you said...
Quote:
Given your repeated posts about how people are going to flip on Trump "like any day now. Ok, any day... NOW. Hmmm... Ok, maybe this time?"
...since I know you had no idea how many people were cooperating with the investigation. But who knows, maybe you really are this confused about how things work. That would explain a lot.

Edited, May 8th 2018 7:46pm by Jophiel


Are you guys arguing because copping a plea and pleading guilty are two different things?

If you plead guilty, it doesn't automatically mean you will cooperate with the prosecution, but if you cop a plea (pleading guilty, and offering cooperation to the prosecution in exchange for reduced charges/sentencing) then it does.

Man one little d has you two so riled up. (pun intended)
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#1287 May 09 2018 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
From a subscription-only posting on Political Wire:
Quote:
Yesterday’s reports that Cohen received payments from a Russian oligarch suddenly linked him to the broader Russian investigation.

Similarly, news that a major U.S. telecommunications firm, a subsidiary of a Swiss pharmaceutical giant, and a South Korean aerospace corporation also paid money to Cohen raises questions as to what they wanted from him. One of the companies said it was to “provide insights” into the new administration. However, Cohen is not a registered lobbyist or a registered foreign agent.

All of these payments flowed into Essential Consultants, a limited liability company Cohen controlled and created shortly before Election Day to make a $130,000 “hush payment” to Stormy Daniels.

But what’s missing from most of the news coverage is that Cohen was also the deputy finance chairman of the Republican National Committee when these payments were made.

It also came out that Mueller had been investigating Cohen and Essential Consultants since last fall at least. But remember, the FBI raid was just "fishing".

So, trump himself isn't under investigation, but everybody associated with him just happens to be. Is it really that big a stretch that it will all lead back to him anyways?
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#1288 May 09 2018 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Debalic wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
From a subscription-only posting on Political Wire:
Quote:
Yesterday’s reports that Cohen received payments from a Russian oligarch suddenly linked him to the broader Russian investigation.

Similarly, news that a major U.S. telecommunications firm, a subsidiary of a Swiss pharmaceutical giant, and a South Korean aerospace corporation also paid money to Cohen raises questions as to what they wanted from him. One of the companies said it was to “provide insights” into the new administration. However, Cohen is not a registered lobbyist or a registered foreign agent.

All of these payments flowed into Essential Consultants, a limited liability company Cohen controlled and created shortly before Election Day to make a $130,000 “hush payment” to Stormy Daniels.

But what’s missing from most of the news coverage is that Cohen was also the deputy finance chairman of the Republican National Committee when these payments were made.

It also came out that Mueller had been investigating Cohen and Essential Consultants since last fall at least. But remember, the FBI raid was just "fishing".

So, trump himself isn't under investigation, but everybody associated with him just happens to be. Is it really that big a stretch that it will all lead back to him anyways?
The acid test of just how good of an administrator he his: can he keep his hands clean while his stooges do the dirty work for him?
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#1289 May 09 2018 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Are you guys arguing because copping a plea and pleading guilty are two different things?

Not really. Gbaji is arguing because he was wrong and is now trying to change definitions so he's not wrong. Plea/plead aside, he's also convinced himself that "cooperating with the investigation" doesn't really count as flipping unless it proves whatever crimes Gbaji insists it has to prove in in the manner he insists it must prove them in order to count.

The short answer is the Gbaji said something in ignorance, got called on it and will spend a billion keystrokes desperately trying to redefine it so he's right (or at least not wrong). Which is, you know, pretty classic Gbaji.
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#1290 May 09 2018 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
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You ruined my dick joke, Joph!
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#1291 May 09 2018 at 7:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dun DUN DUN!!!
Daily Beast wrote:
In his new book, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) confirms that he gave a controversial dossier about President Trump to former FBI chief James Comey.

“I agreed to receive a copy of what is now referred to as ‘the dossier,’” McCain writes in the upcoming book, titled The Restless Wave, referencing information compiled by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele. “I reviewed its contents. The allegations were disturbing, but I had no idea which if any were true. I could not independently verify any of it, and so I did what any American who cares about our nation’s security should have done.”
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#1292 May 10 2018 at 8:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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He's really trying to make sure his funeral is Trump-free, huh?
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#1293 May 10 2018 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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But really, aren't we all?

In related news, looks like Guiliani has left his lawfirm to full-time botch up interviews as one of 45's full time lawyers. Kind of suspicious, as most big time firms told their top associates that if they did take time to sign on to this particular task that they'd need to resign first, mostly because of his history of completely ignoring his lawyers' advice anyway, apparently not paying them in the end, and other associates that did't want to be connected to firms that are connected to the Oompa Loompa in Chief.

Edited, May 10th 2018 12:51pm by lolgaxe
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#1294 May 10 2018 at 1:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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As I read it, Guiliani was pushed out, in part, for the repeated assertion that his law firm makes the same sort of "fixer" arrangements as Cohen did all the time. I guess they didn't want to be the go-to place for paying off porn stars and weird Russian money transfers.
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#1295 May 10 2018 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Debalic wrote:
In other news, trump just advanced Iran's nuclear program by ten years. Well done.
I'm kind of hoping that the rest of the whole world can kind of keep that in check, but the real loss is in credibility. If we're just going to make and break deals based solely on who is in office then why should anyone enter in any future deals with us?


I don't think there's a single world leader out there who wasn't aware of the fact that Obama failed to actually obtain Senate ratification of the deal, and thus this was never a binding treaty of any nature. It's almost like we have a process written into our Constitution specifically to prevent deals from being made and then broken based on who is in office, and someone decided to just ignore it. I blame Obama. Shocking, I know.
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#1296 May 10 2018 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Are you guys arguing because copping a plea and pleading guilty are two different things?

Not really. Gbaji is arguing because he was wrong and is now trying to change definitions so he's not wrong. Plea/plead aside, he's also convinced himself that "cooperating with the investigation" doesn't really count as flipping unless it proves whatever crimes Gbaji insists it has to prove in in the manner he insists it must prove them in order to count.

The short answer is the Gbaji said something in ignorance, got called on it and will spend a billion keystrokes desperately trying to redefine it so he's right (or at least not wrong). Which is, you know, pretty classic Gbaji.


What? That's not remotely correct. What I have been saying, all along, is that entering a plea deal or "cooperating with the investigation" does not automatically mean "flipping on Trump". If we assume that "flipping on Trump" means "providing evidence to the investigation that supports charges against Trump for colluding with the Russians to influence the outcome of the 2016 election", then you simply cannot make this assumption.

There are a host of possible ways in which someone can cooperate with an investigation without providing a single piece of information or evidence having to do with Trump in the context of the aforementioned Russian collusion. My entire point is about your almost desperate need to assume that every single person who cooperates with the investigation must be doing so in a way which will lead to Trump getting impeached or something. I think that's a huge stretch. It's pure wishful thinking.
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#1297 May 10 2018 at 7:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
If we assume that "flipping on Trump" means "providing evidence to the investigation that supports charges against Trump for colluding with the Russians to influence the outcome of the 2016 election", then you simply cannot make this assumption.

Yeah, so what I said was 100% accurate Smiley: laugh

Edited, May 10th 2018 8:58pm by Jophiel
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#1298 May 10 2018 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Are you guys arguing because copping a plea and pleading guilty are two different things?

Not really. Gbaji is arguing because he was wrong and is now trying to change definitions so he's not wrong. Plea/plead aside, he's also convinced himself that "cooperating with the investigation" doesn't really count as flipping unless it proves whatever crimes Gbaji insists it has to prove in in the manner he insists it must prove them in order to count.

The short answer is the Gbaji said something in ignorance, got called on it and will spend a billion keystrokes desperately trying to redefine it so he's right (or at least not wrong). Which is, you know, pretty classic Gbaji.


What? That's not remotely correct. What I have been saying, all along, is that entering a plea deal or "cooperating with the investigation" does not automatically mean "flipping on Trump". If we assume that "flipping on Trump" means "providing evidence to the investigation that supports charges against Trump for colluding with the Russians to influence the outcome of the 2016 election", then you simply cannot make this assumption.

There are a host of possible ways in which someone can cooperate with an investigation without providing a single piece of information or evidence having to do with Trump in the context of the aforementioned Russian collusion. My entire point is about your almost desperate need to assume that every single person who cooperates with the investigation must be doing so in a way which will lead to Trump getting impeached or something. I think that's a huge stretch. It's pure wishful thinking.


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#1299 May 10 2018 at 10:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Screenshot
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#1300 May 10 2018 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Joph, I hate that you make me rate you up so often.

Also, have we addressed this in the asylum, yet?
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#1301 May 10 2018 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
GBATE!! Never saw it coming
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Joph, I hate that you make me rate you up so often.

Also, have we addressed this in the asylum, yet?
Why they didn't route the damnable thing east of the Missouri in the first place is beyond me.Smiley: oyvey
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