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#27 Nov 29 2017 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I know for a fact that I'm 1/8th NA, including the nation and tribe my great grandmother was from. [...] And "I'm part <insert NA tribe name here>" was the 60s/70s version of "I have black friends".
Heh.
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#28 Nov 29 2017 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Don't engage, you will provoke the fear response!
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#29 Nov 29 2017 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Imaginary claims of Native American ancestry aren't really like "I have black friends", anyway. "I have black friends" is set up as a deflection of racism claims by acting as though, since you know some black guys, you can't possibly be racist and therefore your racist comments shouldn't be criticized. Even if true, it's meaningless: it would be like me making a bunch of Spic and Beaner remarks and saying "It's cool, I married a brown chick".

Claims to Native American ancestry are more about trying to sound exotic or spiritual. People in the 60s claiming ancestry weren't saying "Fuck you, Redskin go eat some maize -- nah, it's cool, I'm 1/32 Cherokee" they were saying "My great-great grandmother was a Cherokee princess and that blood helps me commune with Mother Gaia and see the Great Wheel in all things....". The fetishization of an ethnic group can certainly be a form of racism but the goal is far different from "I have black friends".

I suspect Warren believed she had Native American blood because she was told that and just never had reason to question it and liked the idea of being "exotic" in some fashion. Plus, it's not really improbable for someone whose family was in the northeast same as basically every European has some tenuous claim to royalty if you go back far enough. For that matter, if you want to believe that she maliciously wrote it into a college entrance form because she thought it'd help then I can't prove otherwise. Pretty unlikely though that she picked it up to shield herself from accusations of racism in a "But I have black friends" manner unless you have examples of her saying things that needed such a shield.

But, and let's be honest here, Republicans don't actually care about Native Americans in this way at all. I mean, let's try to act like we're really concerned about Warren's claim by using a racial slur and then ignore things like Native Americans being attacked by dogs and sprayed with chemicals as they try to protect their ancestral lands from being torn up for oil pipelines. If Republicans gave a fuck about Native Americans, there's a whole long list of things they could be addressing.
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#30 Nov 29 2017 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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Rating you up is so unsatisfying. But I do it anyway
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#31 Nov 29 2017 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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The only real race issue I like to play with is getting people to argue with each other, or doubting themselves, over whether or not Italians are white. The right answer is whichever benefits me most at the time.
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#32 Nov 29 2017 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Italians are subhuman. It's like debating whether or not cocker spaniels are white.

Edit: My sister married an Italian so it's okay.

Edited, Nov 29th 2017 10:06am by Jophiel
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#33 Nov 29 2017 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Are Joe Cocker Spaniards white?
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#34 Nov 29 2017 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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You spelled "suprahuman" wrong.
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#35 Nov 29 2017 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Seems like people care more about name calling than actual real harm these days.
Why not stop both?


So... Kinda like saying that Trump should stop using the name Pocahontas as a pejorative towards Warren and guilty white people like Warren should stop co-oping NA heritage? You know, like I said at the very beginning?

I agree 100%
Don't get why you'd complain about the name calling then. Isn't it enough that we all want the same problems gone without complaining that people care more about a particular problem that offends them more, or that they have more personal experience with?

I mean it's a good thing that people care about name-calling more these days right, as it's a sign of progress? I mean, we could be ******** about genocide or enslaving people or what not...
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#36 Dec 06 2017 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Imaginary claims of Native American ancestry aren't really like "I have black friends", anyway. "I have black friends" is set up as a deflection of racism claims by acting as though, since you know some black guys, you can't possibly be racist and therefore your racist comments shouldn't be criticized. Even if true, it's meaningless: it would be like me making a bunch of Spic and Beaner remarks and saying "It's cool, I married a brown chick".

Claims to Native American ancestry are more about trying to sound exotic or spiritual. People in the 60s claiming ancestry weren't saying "Fuck you, Redskin go eat some maize -- nah, it's cool, I'm 1/32 Cherokee" they were saying "My great-great grandmother was a Cherokee princess and that blood helps me commune with Mother Gaia and see the Great Wheel in all things....". The fetishization of an ethnic group can certainly be a form of racism but the goal is far different from "I have black friends".


The goal is more or less identical. It's about saying "Yeah, I'm white, but I'm not like those other white people who don't understand you. I'm on your side. Really! Honest!". It's about joining a group that you don't really belong to. It's about claiming an association that you don't really have. In the same way that "having a black friend" doesn't mean you know what it's like to be black, to grow up black, etc, claiming NA ancestry doesn't mean you know what it's like to grow up on a Rez, be part of a tribe, etc.

Both involve the motivation of wanting to claim a kinship to something via a pretty tenuous connection that doesn't actually provide sufficient connection to warrant mention. And yeah, in a lot of cases the "I'm part NA" is used specifically to handwave away behavior that might be insensitive or racist. "It's ok for me to use this offensive term, because I'm 1/256th Cherokee!". Same deal IMO.

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I suspect Warren believed she had Native American blood because she was told that and just never had reason to question it and liked the idea of being "exotic" in some fashion.


Which is fine. Checking the NA box on an application is not. That's the point here.

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Plus, it's not really improbable for someone whose family was in the northeast same as basically every European has some tenuous claim to royalty if you go back far enough. For that matter, if you want to believe that she maliciously wrote it into a college entrance form because she thought it'd help then I can't prove otherwise. Pretty unlikely though that she picked it up to shield herself from accusations of racism in a "But I have black friends" manner unless you have examples of her saying things that needed such a shield.


I didn't say maliciously. I even stated that it's possible she had no specific motivations at all. However, it's pretty unlikely that the fact that she did put this information down didn't help her at some point (possibly several points) in her life. She can claim she was blissfully ignorant of the fact that by putting that down, she would have an easier time getting accepted to schools, an easier time getting a job, easier time getting advancement in said job, etc, but that's ignorance on her part, and frankly it's hard to believe that she just wasn't aware of this. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that a person who is a prominent member of a political party with an ideology that strongly revolves around identity groups, benefits for minorities, fights for the rights of said groups, etc, that person would have to have a serious mental block to not realize that by putting a NA heritage down on paper, she's reaping the very rewards she and her party fight for in the first place.

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But, and let's be honest here, Republicans don't actually care about Native Americans in this way at all.


False. Unless by "in this way", you mean "we pity them and feel we must make up for past wrongs". Cause yeah, that's not how we feel people should be respected. Frankly, we find that to be disrespectful. But that's an ideological difference, I suppose. But it's absolutely not about liking or disliking. It's about the belief that the best way to prove you "like" a group isn't to give them free stuff. That's usually what you do for people you don't like, but want to get to like you. It's disingenuous.

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I mean, let's try to act like we're really concerned about Warren's claim by using a racial slur and then ignore things like Native Americans being attacked by dogs and sprayed with chemicals as they try to protect their ancestral lands from being torn up for oil pipelines. If Republicans gave a fuck about Native Americans, there's a whole long list of things they could be addressing.


I've raised those issues on this forum exactly as many times as you have (prior to this one reference). It is interesting that you only seem to care about such things when they serve as a distraction from another topic being discussed. In what way does any of that have to do with the wrongness of Warren claiming NA ancestry on application forms? Not at all, right? Doesn't have any effect. But you bring it up anyway.
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#37 Dec 06 2017 at 11:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
The goal is more or less identical. It's about saying "Yeah, I'm white, but I'm not like those other white people who don't understand you. I'm on your side. Really! Honest!".

Ok, you have no clue why people say "I have black friends!". Gotcha.
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#38 Dec 07 2017 at 12:52 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
She can claim she was blissfully ignorant of the fact that by putting that down, she would have an easier time getting accepted to schools, an easier time getting a job, easier time getting advancement in said job, etc,
So, no different than being a member of a prominent family and getting the same set of "goodies". Gotcha.

gbaji wrote:
It's about the belief that the best way to prove you "like" a group isn't to give them free stuff.
The GOP absolutely loves rich, powerful people and gives them free stuff all the time....can't have it both ways.
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Jophiel wrote:
Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#39 Dec 07 2017 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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The best way to prove you like a group is to give them huge tax breaks. The GOP loves millionaires and large corporations.
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I've raised those issues on this forum exactly as many times as you have

I didn't bother with this last night because it was stupid. It's still stupid now, of course, but I've had my coffee. This forum is entirely irrelevant. It's not about you and I. I can find numerous examples of Democratic politicians, pundits, opinion writers for liberal media, etc speaking out about the treatment of Native Americans both in regards to the Keystone Pipeline and many other issues. Can you do the same for the right? Can you find me the Republican politicians taking a stand against the actions we saw? Hannity and O'Reilly and all them made a bunch of hay about Warren, how much time did they spend talking about actual issues facing Native Americans? How many articles in National Journal or The Federalist?

I mean, you can make a lame attempt at deflection by pretending =4 is the world if that's what you need to do. It won't change the fact that the GOP doesn't give a shit about Native Americans unless they can hand-wring about Warren and cry crocodile tears about her ancestry.
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#40 Dec 07 2017 at 8:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
can't have it both ways.
This is the guy that literally just claimed he was part Native American and that claiming to be part Native American was just a scam boring white people do to make themselves sound less racist.
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#41 Dec 07 2017 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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.
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#42 Dec 07 2017 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I can find numerous examples of Democratic politicians, pundits, opinion writers for liberal media, etc speaking out about the treatment of Native Americans both in regards to the Keystone Pipeline and many other issues.


Uh huh. And they're all doing this out of some love and respect for Native American people, right? Or are they doing it because it's a convenient method to use to push their "side" of an issue that has nothing at all to do with NA heritage, customs, traditions, or lands, much less the historical treatment of said people, and a whole heck of a lot to do with "the folks who lobby us want funding for form of energy X, and not form of energy Y".

When you only care about a group of people when doing so helps to support a position you already hold for completely different reasons, that's not really caring about them, it's using them. Those same Democratic politicians, pundits, and opinion writers for liberal media outlets would be opposing the construction of oil pipelines regardless of where they were being built. They just know that using NA people as a focal point adds a human element that helps sway support for their position via sheer emotional appeal.


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Can you do the same for the right? Can you find me the Republican politicians taking a stand against the actions we saw?


Taking a stand against what actions? Illegal protests? Rioting? Burning of vehicles? You mean those actions?

The difference is that I judge people on their actions, and not on the "side" they are on. You excuse violence if it's in pursuit of a "cause" that you agree with. Heck. Your side loves violence. It gets TV viewership and raises awareness of whatever the issue of the moment is, completely out of context of the issue itself.

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Hannity and O'Reilly and all them made a bunch of hay about Warren, how much time did they spend talking about actual issues facing Native Americans?


You actually think a pipeline is the most important, or even anywhere near the top 10 most important issues facing Native Americans today? Um... Yeah. Classic case of what I'm talking about. I guess you have "Native American friends".

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How many articles in National Journal or The Federalist?


One's that amount to fear mongering over the issue? Very few. Ones that objectively examine the issue? Couldn't say. I'm sure it's been covered though. But probably objectively and without massive emotional appeals. You know, like people who aren't playing on fear do.

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I mean, you can make a lame attempt at deflection by pretending =4 is the world if that's what you need to do. It won't change the fact that the GOP doesn't give a shit about Native Americans unless they can hand-wring about Warren and cry crocodile tears about her ancestry.


Again. Raising the flag only when it's for something you would have fought for anyway doesn't mean you care about the flag. It means you'll use it as a symbol when it's convenient. Get back to me when those pundits are spending time interacting with tribal leaders when it's *not* something beneficial for themselves.

So we're agreed that the GOP is less likely to use other people for their own political ends. Great!
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#43 Dec 07 2017 at 10:10 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Get back to me when those pundits are spending time interacting with tribal leaders when it's *not* something beneficial for themselves.
So...you expect people (on the left anways) to highlight a problem and somehow, magically, at the same time not reference that they care about the problem? Not reference that caring about other people is what defines their politics?

Never go full retard, man.

gbaji wrote:
So we're agreed that the GOP is less likely to use other people for their own political ends. Great!
In that they just don't give a shit about them at all? Sure. Total agreement.

Ha ha, just kidding. They use tools like yourself all the time.
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Jophiel wrote:
Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#44 Dec 07 2017 at 11:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I can find numerous examples of Democratic politicians, pundits, opinion writers for liberal media, etc speaking out about the treatment of Native Americans both in regards to the Keystone Pipeline and many other issues.
Uh huh. And they're all doing this out of some love and respect for Native American people, right?

I know that respect for common people is an alien concept to the GOP. As evidenced by the dismissal of Native American concerns in the rest of your post.
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I guess you have "Native American friends".

Well, spouse actually Smiley: laugh
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#45 Dec 08 2017 at 3:26 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I can find numerous examples of Democratic politicians, pundits, opinion writers for liberal media, etc speaking out about the treatment of Native Americans both in regards to the Keystone Pipeline and many other issues.
Uh huh. And they're all doing this out of some love and respect for Native American people, right?

I know that respect for common people is an alien concept to the GOP. As evidenced by the dismissal of Native American concerns in the rest of your post.
Quote:
I guess you have "Native American friends".

Well, spouse actually Smiley: laugh
Right about now, I'm sad we don't have an [:bactine:] smiley.
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Jophiel wrote:
Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#46 Dec 08 2017 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The difference is that I judge people on their actions,
Political affiliation isn't an "action," Chief Foot In Mouth.
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#47 Dec 08 2017 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Get back to me when those pundits are spending time interacting with tribal leaders when it's *not* something beneficial for themselves.
So...you expect people (on the left anways) to highlight a problem and somehow, magically, at the same time not reference that they care about the problem?


No. I'm saying that if you only interact with people, or seem to show any care at all about those people, when there's a problem affecting them that you care about, then it's not really about the people, but the problem.

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Not reference that caring about other people is what defines their politics?


And there's my point, right there. You don't actually care about the people. You care about the problem. You care about that problem regardless of how it may or may not affect those people. They are just convenient props for you to use to highlight how important this problem is and why people should side with your solution to said problem.

The Left opposes oil pipelines. Period. They don't really care whose land the pipeline is traveling through, nor about the people on that land. They'll pretend to be champions of *anyone*, if it supports their goal. Pretending that this is about Native Americans and not about opposition to oil pipelines is disingenuous.

The Left only cares about groups of people to the degree that they can show those people to be victims of some policy they oppose (or, I suppose victims of the absence of a policy they support, which amounts to the same thing). Like I said. Get back to me when these pundits are going to tribal ceremonies and reporting on them, or doing examinations of NA cultural heritage, or participating in tribal meetings about subjects that aren't on their own agenda list, or frankly can even list off more than one or two tribal nations when asked without a prompter in front of them.
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#48 Dec 08 2017 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Uh huh. And they're all doing this out of some love and respect for Native American people, right?

I know that respect for common people is an alien concept to the GOP. As evidenced by the dismissal of Native American concerns in the rest of your post.


I'm not dismissing NA concerns. I'm balancing them against other aspects of the issue at hand and making a decision. I do find it somewhat supportive of my point that you don't seem to have a range between "agree with 100%" and "dismissing their concerns". Um... It's quite possible to examine the concerns and decide that their don't outweigh other concerns. But for folks on the Left, the fact that there's a victim identity group involved means that if you don't place more weight on their position than anything else you are racist, sexist, bigoted, etc.

Which I find bizarre. There's a middle ground between "no respect at all", and "must do what they want". Don't project your own inability to find that middle ground on me, or on other conservatives. We have no problem in that space. And yeah, I think you'll find yourself arriving at more reasonable conclusions if you're in that space than the "all or nothing" space you seem to want to live in.
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#49 Dec 08 2017 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
And there's my point, right there. You don't actually care about the people.
The guy who's labored at an homeless shelter for over a decade doesn't care about the people? Huh.

The guy who so clearly values money over people (you) gets to make judgment calls on the motivations/empathy of half the country? Double huh.
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Jophiel wrote:
Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#50 Dec 08 2017 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
There's a middle ground between "no respect at all", and "must do what they want". Don't project your own inability to find that middle ground on me, or on other conservatives. We have no problem in that space.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH:AHA
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#51 Dec 08 2017 at 11:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Which I find bizarre. There's a middle ground between "no respect at all", and "must do what they want". Don't project your own inability to find that middle ground on me, or on other conservatives.

mhmmm... Hence the silence at what's going on. Oh, I'm sorry... the "illegal protests" -- that's always the excuse when minorities get abused by authority, isn't it? ****, sorry you didn't have your licensed papers, guess we have to gas you or shoot you or hit you with a car now. Shucky darn but that's just the conservative middle ground, ya know?
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