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#27 Jul 29 2014 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Someone get on that.
Friar Bijou wrote:
Having said that; If an mortal grasps Mojfjgjkigjfjgwhatever, don't they get the power regardless of "whatever"? (In that universe?).
If they're worthy of lifting Mjolnir, they get pretty similar abilities, yes.
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#28 Jul 29 2014 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory the Fussy wrote:
You WROTE the first paragraph, so you're still committed to it. You said it. Maybe you actually only care about the content of the second paragraph. Maybe nothing from the first paragraph actually matches how you feel, because the only problem you have here is with the Thor not being Thor. Maybe your post was just word ramble until you finally figured out what was actually bothering you.

But since you wrote it, I'm going to assume that the first paragraph actually matches some things you believe, because I'm not a mind reader. And I take serious issue with them.
You're focusing on the part that bugs you without taking in the whole of what I wrote. If you were actually paying attention, the second paragraph focuses more on my specific issue with Thor. I do think it's silly that they're pushing to make current characters other genders/ethnicities/whatever, but it's not the main thing that bugs me with that particular character. It's a thing that irks me in a general sense and it does apply to Thor in a minor sense. My problem with changing characters' genders isn't just because it changes the character, but because it feels like it cheapens them both. He's no longer the sole and iconic version of that character and she wasn't good or interesting enough to stand as a hero on her own. Because every female holding the mantle of a male hero is one more reason to ignore the need for bringing existing or new female heroes to the forefront to stand on their own two feet.

In some characters, their very nature is built for the inevitability of legacy characters, so it's less of a big deal.

Quote:
And then you admit that it's the sex thing itself that's bothering you.
The way you wrote that, you're trying to make that my main issue with the Thor thing, when that is not the case. I can talk about two issues in a single post that are related while pointing out my real issue with a particular character. Re-reading it, it seems clear enough that my primary issue is with

idiggory the Fussy wrote:
If a Muslim character's religion isn't a big factor in the story, they say they made him/her Muslim just to be PC. If it is a big part, they critique the entire story line as them trying to be PC.
As long as you're making new characters, I don't give a **** what their religion, gender or sexuality is as long as they're interesting. It's changing old characters, often but not always to fit a need to shoehorn in diversity, that irritates me. If you're doing it because it makes sense for the character, fine. But by trumpeting it, you're not giving me hope that it's more than to shoehorn in diversity or a publicity stunt.

But - and I'm emphasizing because you seem to need me to do so - Eric Masterson was. not. THOR. Roger "Red" Norvell was. not. THOR. Beta Ray Bill, not. THOR. The new girl? NOT. THOR. Any or all of them may or may not be God of Thunder. But unless their parents named them Thor, they are NOT Thor.

Thor, Son of ******* Odin. That man is THOR. Whether he is God of Thunder, Defender of Asgard, or taking orders at a Dairy Queen drive thru. And that is what most irritates me about the Thor change. And if you can't get that, I don't know what to tell you.

I think I'm done. Agree to disagree or whatever. Just don't put words into my mouth by willfully ignoring the parts of what I say that don't fit your outrage. I want diversity in comics, but not like this. Because you rush a miracle maker, you get lousy miracles. Anything worth doing is worth doing right.
#29 Jul 29 2014 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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I don't care about gender or race changes in legacy characters. I do care that the vocal population that complains about a lack of certain types of characters tend to also not buy books in the first place, so these changes do more overall harm than good.
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#30 Jul 29 2014 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I pretty much agree with Poldaran on this one. While I'm sure the Marvel writers are trying to show that they're including female characters (in this particular case), I think it would be much better if they'd actually introduce good interesting female characters. Having a male characters powers transfer to a female so as to make a female version of the male character is actually a bit of a slap to the face to female readers. It kinda perpetuates the idea that women can only be powerful if they receive (or in a whacky feminazi sort of thing, take) their power from men.

And if you think that the reasons for doing this aren't precisely PC related, you're naive as hell. Comic companies (as well as TV and film franchises) are under constant pressure from various groups to be more inclusive of minority or otherwise underrepresented character types. When was the last time you saw a male character created by receiving the powers of a known major female character? Never, right? How many black characters had their powers transferred to a white version of themselves? None, right? Meanwhile, we've had a long string of the minority characters created via this method (or some variation, see She Hulk, Spider Woman/girl, Polaris, heck, just for an obscure Alpha Flight reference, Sasquatch once got transferred into a new body and it turned him female, so this is a pretty common thing). It's a kind of lazy PC compliance, with a side of "minorities are always a subset of the more powerful/good/interesting white male type" tossed in for good measure. Which more or less steps all over the presumed goal.

And it's unnecessary as heck. Marvel actually has a pretty good track record of introducing wholly new and unique and strong minority characters. I guess if the objective is just to create an interesting storyline for Thor, and it's in addition to those other all original characters, that's better than just the copy method by itself. But if this is the sort of interesting storyline that Marvel thinks is worth doing, then they should do it in the other direction as well. But as far as I know, they've never done so. If it's interesting to explore the idea of a male character either becoming or being replaced by a female, why isn't it just as interesting to do the reverse? Heck, it would be more so given how rarely this character change is ever explored. Again though, I'm not sure that they've *ever* done this.
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#31 Jul 30 2014 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
Pretty sure Thor using Jarnbjorn again in Uncanny Avengers is whats going to cause him to be unworthy. Uncanny Avengers is good, you should read it.
Its not rape if they don't leave marks wrote:

Having a male characters powers transfer to a female so as to make a female version of the male character is actually a bit of a slap to the face to female readers. It kinda perpetuates the idea that women can only be powerful if they receive (or in a whacky feminazi sort of thing, take) their power from men.


A woman picking up where Thor leaves off isn't a slap in the face to woman. The ability to wield Mjolnir shows she's worthy on her own. She isn't given the power from men, she had the ability to harness the power herself.

This will all go back to "normal" by next summer when A2 comes out, so don't get your panties in a knot.
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#32 Jul 30 2014 at 5:54 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I pretty much agree with Poldaran on this one. While I'm sure the Marvel writers are trying to show that they're including female characters (in this particular case), I think it would be much better if they'd actually introduce good interesting female characters. Having a male characters powers transfer to a female so as to make a female version of the male character is actually a bit of a slap to the face to female readers.
But you're not agreeing with Pol. He went out of his way to assure us that he didn't think it this was feminist coddling, but that he just didn't think Thor should be a title. But hey, I'm sure you know what he really meant better than he did.

Likewise, as I woman I forgot to feel the face-slapping...silly lil' ol me. Good thing we girls have you to nudge us into being offended on cue.

As I mentioned before I love the graphic, but also I think the concept of Thor becoming unworthy of Mjolnir and it passing to someone or something else - even temporarily is interesting and could make for a good Marvel story line.




Edited, Jul 30th 2014 2:17pm by Elinda
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#33 Jul 30 2014 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't care about gender or race changes in legacy characters. I do care that the vocal population that complains about a lack of certain types of characters tend to also not buy books in the first place, so these changes do more overall harm than good.


Except that it's helping sales, and is being done specifically to drive sales, not because Marvel is trying to be super PC.

Quote:
"It's almost a little mercenary," Brevoort [executive editor] said. "It's not like it doesn't come from a place of good- heartedness, but if we didn't get the kind of response we do every time we try to introduce one of these characters, we wouldn't keep doing it."


Ms. Marvel, now a Pakistani-American Muslim:

Quote:
"Ms. Marvel has been doing very well: The first couple issues really rocked, sales were great, and they remain really good," he said.



I think it's ridiculous to assume Marvel is pushing diversity just because people are loud about wanting it. They're pushing diversity as a byproduct to the increased sales its getting them. Like any business does, ever.

It's no different than when Chipotle started sourcing locally-grown ingredients. The business didn't really care either way. They did it because doing it gets them more customers spending more money than not doing it.

Now, whether or not the female readership is just more vocal now that they're more comfortable being associated with the medium, or if they're actually expanding at a faster rate than the male viewership, is in question. But Marvel IS seeing a reaction from their female fans (new or old) and their sales are going up. So clearly they're doing something effective.
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#34 Jul 30 2014 at 7:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory the Fussy wrote:
Except that it's helping sales,
Really? The Thor and Captain America change, which hasn't even happened, is currently helping sales? Cool, show me the numbers. Or better yet, show me the numbers of Carol Danver's book. Here's an idea, show me the numbers of Tarene's book as well. Or Isaiah Bradley's. Here's a detail that article didn't show: Ms. Marvel's books sales have dropped more than 30% from the first issue to it's fourth.
the numbers themselves wrote:
02/14 Ms. Marvel #1 - 50,286 ( --- ) [8,221] 03/14 Ms. Marvel #2 - 38,357 (-23.7%) [3,440] 04/14 Ms. Marvel #3 - 37,140 ( -3.2%) 05/14 Ms. Marvel #4 - 34,839 ( -6.2%)
Carol Danver's book is just over 25k, and the cancellation marker for books is just below 20k. And to really highlight my point: Is Ms. Marvel on your pull list, digg? My point wasn't that it doesn't help overall company sales, since that's a downright ignorant assumption: New books always cause a bump in overall company sales mostly due to curiosity. It has nothing to do with the character. #1 is always a big sales boost. My point was that it doesn't help individual character sales in the long run and that the people that go out of their way to tell everyone how it's such a great thing aren't the people that even support these changes.

Back to Tarene and Isaiah Bradley, the first female Thor and black Captain Americas. Their sales are zero because, like I said, the people going out of their way to hassle for these changes never stick around and these characters disappear. And no one that demands these changes in diversity will remember them.
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#35 Jul 30 2014 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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Over-all comic book sales are down. But, also over-all woman are becoming an ever larger portion of the comic book customer base.

Do women want more women heroes? I dunno. There are many other character attributes would be more likely to turn me on or off to a character.
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#36 Aug 01 2014 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I pretty much agree with Poldaran on this one. While I'm sure the Marvel writers are trying to show that they're including female characters (in this particular case), I think it would be much better if they'd actually introduce good interesting female characters. Having a male characters powers transfer to a female so as to make a female version of the male character is actually a bit of a slap to the face to female readers.
But you're not agreeing with Pol. He went out of his way to assure us that he didn't think it this was feminist coddling, but that he just didn't think Thor should be a title. But hey, I'm sure you know what he really meant better than he did.


Huh?

The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Though, if I were a woman, I would be offended that rather than coming up with an actual interesting female character they got lazy and decided to just re-gender an old one.




Edited, Aug 1st 2014 2:12pm by gbaji
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#37 Aug 04 2014 at 6:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Whatever, he spent three posts trying to back-step that whole theory.

As long as all you male specimens continue to attribute all female accomplishment as simply pandering to a minority, we still have a sexism issue.

Perhaps, just maybe, Thor is becoming female because she's a good character and a good story. Maybe she'll have a baby or maybe her menstrual blood has healing power.
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#38 Aug 04 2014 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
As long as all you male specimens continue to attribute all female accomplishment as simply pandering to a minority, we still have a sexism issue.


I attribute pandering to a minority as pandering to a minority. It's the pandering part that I took exception to, and argued that it's very much *not* about female accomplishment. If it turns out that the story they write isn't pandering at all, but really does end out highlighting the accomplishments and capabilities of women rather than the usual "woman succeeds only because she's borrowing a mans power" trope, then I'll admit I was wrong. But if the track record is any indication, this is pandering. Period.

EDIT: And by pandering, I really mean "hot chick in a Thor outfit will sell comics" pandering. Let's not pretend there's actually much more than this going on.

Quote:
Perhaps, just maybe, Thor is becoming female because she's a good character and a good story.


Thor is not becoming female. A female is taking over the mantle of Thor (gaining his powers and oddly, name). Ergo, anything "heroic" she does while in this state will ultimately be the result of having Thor's power. It's the whole point of this kind of storyline and the ultimate catch-22 of any idea that this can possibly be empowering for the character "borrowing" the power. Anything that the character does that requires the use of the main character's power isn't really their accomplishment. They only succeeded because of the power. However, anything the character does that does not require the use of the main character's power they could have accomplished without it, and thus the story could have been told without the gimmick of the power swap (and have had more meaning IMO). If the character defeats a bad guy by using their brains or other knowledge and abilities, why not tell that story instead?

The power swap/steal is a time honored comic book tradition and it's nearly always a cop out. I can't think of a single occasion where it actually empowered or advanced any characters at all. Usually, it just cheapens them. But writers still think it's a great thing to do, so they keep doing it. And to be honest, it does create buzz and will increase sales (for a bit anyway). I just think it's naive to believe that we're likely to see any deep character development by the borrowee during the storyline. Usually, the development is by the one who has lost their power. Usually in some form of "see, you can be a hero even if you don't have powers!". The character temporarily gifted with power? Usually the best you can hope for is some form of lesson learned about abusing power, or how it's not really so easy to have so much power, etc. And that's less about the character developing as providing the reader with a lesson based story.


Quote:
Maybe she'll have a baby or maybe her menstrual blood has healing power.


Because one needs the power of Thor to have a baby? So now the most basic function of female anatomy is dependent on the God of Thunder's power? You're right, I don't see how that disempowers women at all! The menstrual blood with healing powers is good though. That might just work. Smiley: nod

Edited, Aug 4th 2014 4:20pm by gbaji
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#39 Aug 05 2014 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:


Because one needs the power of Thor to have a baby? So now the most basic function of female anatomy is dependent on the God of Thunder's power? You're right, I don't see how that disempowers women at all! The menstrual blood with healing powers is good though. That might just work. Smiley: nod

Edited, Aug 4th 2014 4:20pm by gbaji

My God, is your mind the size of a pea? Did anyone say anything about thor being needed to make babies?

Maybe it's a story, and you know, while thor is being welded by this young women, the women gets pregnant and the baby has super-powers or some sh*t. Ya know, make-believe and all that?

Becoming a super-hero is all about accomplishment? You just wrote a soliloquy about why women can't be good characters in super-hero movies. Way to go super-white-guy.





Edited, Aug 5th 2014 2:15pm by Elinda
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#40 Aug 05 2014 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:


Because one needs the power of Thor to have a baby? So now the most basic function of female anatomy is dependent on the God of Thunder's power? You're right, I don't see how that disempowers women at all! The menstrual blood with healing powers is good though. That might just work. Smiley: nod

My God, is your mind the size of a pea? Did anyone say anything about thor being needed to make babies?


No. That's the point. You don't need to have the power of Thor to make babies, ergo, you could tell the story of a woman having a baby without having to make her Thor first. Or... heaven forbid, we introduce a female character with her own powers, her own back story, give the audience a reason to be interested in her other than the fact that she's temporarily standing in for an existing character, and *then* have her have a baby, giving you the opportunity to actually follow through with the storyline you've created rather than throwing it away once the real Thor comes back (ie: when the audience gets bored of the swap, or they change writers, or whatever else triggers the inevitable reset button on this).


Quote:
Maybe it's a story, and you know, while thor is being welded by this young women, the women gets pregnant and the baby has super-powers or some sh*t.


Ah! So in this case, she actually would need to have the power of Thor to make the baby.

Quote:
Ya know, make-believe and all that?


Yeah, I'm pretty much just yanking your chain at this point. But we can make-believe that this storyline really has anything more deep than "busty blonde in Thor outfit will sell more comics" if you really want. I'm always game for a good fantasy!

Quote:
Becoming a super-hero is all about accomplishment? You just wrote a soliloquy about why women can't be good characters in super-hero movies. Way to go super-white-guy.


No. I said that women *can* be good characters in super-hero comics (we are talking about a comic and not a film, right?). But the method they're using here isn't how you create a good female character in a super-hero comic. It's how you create a temporary throw-away character to drum up sales for a bit. The character being a woman is purely about novelty. Now, if in a year or two this character is still around as a major character in any comic book I'll gladly admit that I was wrong. But the odds are low I'll have to do that. There's a pretty well established pattern with characters like this. She'll be relegated to obscure rarely reoccurring character status in no time.
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#41 Aug 06 2014 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
But the method they're using here isn't how you create a good female character in a super-hero comic. It's how you create a temporary throw-away character to drum up sales for a bit. The character being a woman is purely about novelty. Now, if in a year or two this character is still around as a major character in any comic book I'll gladly admit that I was wrong. But the odds are low I'll have to do that. There's a pretty well established pattern with characters like this. She'll be relegated to obscure rarely reoccurring character status in no time.
Oh look. gbaji is also expert movie director.

Why can't a throw-away character be a woman?
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#42 Aug 06 2014 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:
But the method they're using here isn't how you create a good female character in a super-hero comic. It's how you create a temporary throw-away character to drum up sales for a bit. The character being a woman is purely about novelty. Now, if in a year or two this character is still around as a major character in any comic book I'll gladly admit that I was wrong. But the odds are low I'll have to do that. There's a pretty well established pattern with characters like this. She'll be relegated to obscure rarely reoccurring character status in no time.
Oh look. gbaji is also expert movie director.


Sigh. For the second time, we're talking about a comic book. Not a movie. Why do you keep mentioning a movie even after I just corrected you on this?

Quote:
Why can't a throw-away character be a woman?


She can. But then let's not pretend that this is about empowering women or anything. Seriously. This is because some marketing guy realized that tits in a Thor costume would increase sales. Nothing more. Kinda like I've been saying all along.
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#43 Aug 06 2014 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Ironically, "tits" is not filtered.
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#44 Aug 07 2014 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

She can. But then let's not pretend that this is about empowering women or anything. Seriously.
Smiley: lolYou were the one pretending that. Seriously.

The graphic of the female Thor was really cool and, imo, there is the potential for a good storyline.

Can we play dress-up next?


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