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Would you like legal RMT in FFXIV?Follow

#52 Jun 07 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
51 people: No
41 people: Yes or "I don't care"

I don't think "Yes" and "I wouldn't buy gil anyways" are quite the same thing.

Nope. They totally aren't the same thing.

But... "I wouldn't buy guild anyway" is awfully apathetic. Apathetic enough, that I'd count "I don't care" with the "Yes" category.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 6:15pm by Karelyn
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#53 Jun 08 2009 at 12:47 AM Rating: Good
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would'nt really matter there are going to be rmt regardless if we want them around or not.
#54 Jun 08 2009 at 12:59 AM Rating: Default
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Title of thread: "Would you like legal RMT in FFXIV". Answer: NO

Anyone really have a different answer?
If you do then GTFO. Go play a free MMO that allows it. I don't pay subscription fees to have to pay another wad of cash to keep playing the game I am paying a monthly fee for. Or a game I already paid to buy. If it is extra content, fine, I might shell out some green.

Paying a fee to play a game, then paying more for in-game money? Poor sportsmanship at best, complete ***-hattery at a logical level. Functionally retarded at worst.
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#55 Jun 08 2009 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think SE should support the squandering of money for digital property bound within a certain context. I think people waste their money on needless junk as it. I don't mind paying for FFXIV; it's the culmination of people's hard word and the money necessary to afford the game an existence. But buying for little trinkets within the game...

That's, in my book, frankly disgusting and stupid.
#56 Jun 08 2009 at 4:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not only do I not want RMT of any form in FFXIV, I want SE to actually take RMT into account when they design the game's economy. Probably the biggest blunder they made with FFXI was designing with the assumption that there wouldn't be RMT. Luckily, a lesson as hard learned as that one won't be forgotten.

Of course, gaiaxzero is right, there will be RMT. However, good design can at least minimize their effect on the game.
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#57 Jun 08 2009 at 5:07 AM Rating: Decent
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EDIT: Nevermind. I thought the topic was about SE offering their own real-money-trade service, but it seems to be about SE allowing third party gil-sellers.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 9:21pm by TraumaFox
#58 Jun 08 2009 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
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would'nt really matter there are going to be rmt regardless if we want them around or not.


i think this just about sums it up. best part - he did it in one sentence
#59 Jun 08 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I like the idea someone mentioned (think it was in the 'Gear' thread, not sure) about having decent gear in the NPC shops to get started, nothing great, but just a few stat bonuses relevant to the job its for, or using a crafting guild system where the crafting NPCs sell your crafted gear for you (if you're a crafter) at a set price based on the item's relative value, until you are able to work for and earn the much much better rare/ex gear.

At any rate, I agree that RMT will probably be in FFXIV, its just a matter of minimizing their presence.
#60 Jun 08 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Fighting RMT hurt the economy more than actually having RMT on FFXI.

Anyone who has played the game pre-RMT actions can sympathize my point.



Edited, Jun 8th 2009 12:44pm by KaneIsthara
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#61 Jun 08 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Fighting RMT hurt the economy more than actually having RMT on FFXI.

Anyone who has played the game pre-RMT actions can sympathize my point.


how's that?
#62 Jun 08 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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do I want RMT.... No.
are people going to buy gil regardless... Yes.
Will SE providing the Gil solve the problem... No, but it may help it a lot.

Im for any thing that will reduce the number of /tells in game and stupid characters of Valjjj Valaaa Aaaval etc etc
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#63 Jun 08 2009 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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Prices were Jacked up when RMT around, but Gil-Making wasn't such a hassle, so things were easier. Making a profit on something wasn't nearly as hard (impossible) as it is now. When the average price of a stack of fire crystals is 10K, that's some good stuff.

But in reaction to the RMT SE has nerfed countless gil-making options in the game. Between Goblin Bounty Hunters (and other fishing nerfs), Items that used to be Rare/Ex, sell values to NPC's, and I'm sure there's more; the money-making options in the game have dwindled down to near nothing.

So do I think their SHOULD be RMT? I don't really care. But I don't want to go through the game nerfing **** that effects players like I did with FFXI. I say if they come (Which they will) let them be to an extent. Sure, ban um, make sure accounts aren't hacked, but don't nerf the effin game.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 1:17pm by KaneIsthara
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#64 Jun 08 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
Gil buying and account buying remind me of a line in Family Guy. A sleezy salesman is wanting to sell Peter an "Activity Book" with half of the activies already completed. "Connect the dots? More like, put the book down and have a beer!"
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#65 Jun 08 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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If SE makes RMT legal or condones it, I don't buy FFXIV. The end. I know they'll always exist, but SE needs to keep the same stance they've always had on it.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 4:18pm by AntiMe
#66 Jun 08 2009 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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SE needs to keep the same stance they've always had on it.


are you really worried that they're going to change their stance on something like RMT?
#67 Jun 08 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Not even a tiny little bit, but it is the topic of this thread. Seemed relevant.
#68 Jun 08 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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Not even a tiny little bit, but it is the topic of this thread. Seemed relevant.


i suppose you're right. SE would clean up if they did, but imagine the mess it'd create.
#69 Jun 08 2009 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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SE has learned a lot from other MMO's in recent years. So much in fact they were quick to point out more causal elements. Now what does this mean exactly. Well in terms of making gil, it's going to be easier. WoW might have RMT's, but the RMT's were never the pain in *** our RMT were causing NM's to be adjusted as a result. So under that premise, I don't think we'll see any RMT on a daily basis. They'll be there no doubt about it, but it won't be as intrusive as they were in FFXI.

Back on topic, my answer is NO. My reason is in my first paragraph. We don't need RMT if the game is adjusted to help causal people earn gil. For example, gardening is a good example if a causal money maker. Sure you can have 20 mules(sarcasm), but you only need a few moments a day to do it. Besides RMT is like cheating the and JP hate that. ;p
#70 Jun 08 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Would I like it NO. Should they have it NO. Now I'm not going to lie and will probably get alot of crap for this which is understandable and deserved. When I first started FFXI at release I found the game amazingly fun however making gil was hard so I soon found myself spending hours just trying to make more and finally had enough and quit the game before even maxing out one character. After 2 years I decided to return and got into a linkshell with some friends I had in past games I was leveling as fast as I possibly could to try and catch up to my friends and here is where I won't lie I did buy gil and I'm not proud of it and I was banned also which was deserved. If I could go back and do it over I would never have bought gil because I enjoyed the game and now am unable to play it for that stupid mistake.

I think SE made mistakes for the economy in the game though and one main thing is that junk items that you sell to NPC's sold for nothing if they would have increased the amount of Gil obtained for that crap. It would make obtaining gear that can be purchased easier for people. Also if they instance things like WoW did and make things out side of instances drop things that can only be sold to NPCs or Sent to alts on your account. It would eliminate a huge portion of the RMTs in the game. That's how I feel at least. As for my buying gil I just want to apologize to everyone that plays FFXI since I know because of me and others who bought gil it ruined the economy in the game more.

I will be getting FFXIV at launch and hopefully will be able to meet up with people from my old linkshell or at least a few people that I was friends with from the game. Anyways long boring post on my stupidity. Ban Buyers/Sellers, Don't legalize it, and make things bind to account/npcable, and make things have more value when selling to NPC's. Thanx for those who read this far.
#71 Jun 08 2009 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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There will be gilsellers in FFXIV. There is no way to stop it. SE can minimize it by making quested items on par or better with the things that are sold. That really is the only way.
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#72 Jun 08 2009 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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i dont think itd be abad thing. i personally would just use it to power level a craft or something so i could make money on my own and not have to waste precious REAL money on it. and it would help newbies out. always nice to have surplus of money early on, makes things go smoother. and besides, you have to spend money to make money. it would just give us more chances to make money

i dont think "status" would really be a problem since the best gear will likely be quest only anyway and like, rare/ex. so you shouldnt get people getting ****** off because they spent a year on a quest to get their stuff while the buyer just bought theirs from SE in a matter of seconds

and if SE is offering it, and at decent prices, they can more easily regulate it <since gil sellers wouldnt make much money with SE offering such low prices. and they would have an infa amount of gil. i mean for them itd just be a few clicks and voila, they are rich where as gil sellers have to go and farm NM's and stuff> so it shouldnt <key word there is "shouldnt"> make the in game econ suffer <at least as badly as with gil sellers having free reign> so i see it as being positive


so long as SE is careful about how they go about it, i dont really see a problem
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#73 Jun 08 2009 at 8:01 PM Rating: Default
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This thread is silly.

Nobody wants RMT, but they will exist as long as there is money to be made.

So let us DANCE!


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#74 Jun 08 2009 at 8:17 PM Rating: Decent
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yeah, nobody wants it alright...thats why over 20 people voted that they wanted it, over 10 admitted to buying it secretly but not publically announcing it <so they havent spoken up on this thread in favor, or perhaps at all> and even more, nearly 30, dont even care

gil selling is a negative thing, im not saying its not. but why not use a controleld amount of said negative to control a much larger one. imo it'd be overly complicated to find a way to truely make it impossible for gil sellers to operate <though they could make it so we cant trade gil between players...but that would be dumb> so why not use said negative to combat them and do it in a controlled manner. stopping a negative is one thing, turning anegative into a positive is something else entirely and can really stick it to said negative thing

we use diseases to cure diseases, why cant this be any different

people are so blinded by the obvious negativity that they dont see that it could be benificial. no, all they see is bad bad bad. im not saying it will work, im not saying its the best idea. but i am saying it shouldnt get so quickly shot down just because of fears you all have. i understand. i've played FFXI and quit because of the and economy. i know how hard it is. and many had it even worse since the higher your level the more expensive things got

but that fear <or whatever you wanna call it> shouldnt be the cause to shoot down something that could really work and prevent things from getting that bad

i cant go into detail, im more of an idea kinda person than a detail kinda person. im saying the POSSIBILITY is there if they do it correctly in a controlled environment

bah, im rambling now so i'll stop, but really, theres no reason to auto kill a simple IDEA
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#75 Jun 08 2009 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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vedina wrote:
gil selling is a negative thing, im not saying its not. but why not use a controleld amount of said negative to control a much larger one.

It doesn't matter who does the selling. The problem isn't that unlicensed vendors are selling gil, the problem is that gil is being sold. SE selling gil doesn't eliminate the problem, it just changes who is the cause.
vedina wrote:
imo it'd be overly complicated to find a way to truely make it impossible for gil sellers to operate <though they could make it so we cant trade gil between players...but that would be dumb> so why not use said negative to combat them and do it in a controlled manner. stopping a negative is one thing, turning anegative into a positive is something else entirely and can really stick it to said negative thing

Again. Gil sellers aren't the problem, gil selling is the problem. It doesn't matter who does it, whether it is legal or illegal. The transaction itself is the problem. Letting SE sell gil does nothing to fix the problem.

I think there are many people here that don't understand why RMT is a problem.

The fundamental basis of a good game is that everyone begins equal. When I create my character in an MMO I don't have more stats than you do (of the same race), I can't start at level 75, and I can't pick some special race like Yagudo that lets me do something you can't. Everything I can do, you can also do. In monoply every player starts with the same amount of money. In chess both players start with the same amount of pieces.

Letting people buy gil in a game removes that starting equality. Now I can simply pay the monopoly banker to give me 10x your starting cash and a hotel on boardwalk. Now I can pay the chess referee to turn all my pawns into queens. Who is going to play against me? Would you want to play that? I wouldn't. There's no point to a game where the other player can buy victory. It's no longer a game, but just a question of who wants to spend more.

Even if we both spend money to get back to an equal footing we still lose. If I paid $100 to the monopoly banker to get 10x starting cash, and you pay $100 to the monoply banker to get 10x starting cash, then neither of us has gained anything. Neither of us has an advantage over the other, but we're both down $100. The same thing with bribing the chess referee. Now we both start with 9 queens. We both lost $100 for nothing.

THAT is why RMT is bad. It doesn't matter whether someone does it legally or cheats. RMT games aren't worth playing. Everything else that people complain about such as gil farmers taking their mobs, nodes, or NMs, or the screwed up economy and inflation, all of that are merely side effects. Those problems can be avoided if the developers are smart, but the fundamental problem of RMT cannot be avoided.

If you think SE should allow RMT then I hope SE lets me pay $50 to make your character permanently level 1 in all skills. That is what you are advocating. I get an advantage over you because I paid money.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 11:39pm by Allegory
#76 Jun 08 2009 at 9:00 PM Rating: Default
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in this particular situation though, your wrong. we arent competing against one another. we're allies.

i do get what your saying but i just dont believe that your particular arguments are relavent here
regardless of what it may sound like, im not in favor of this. if i was i wouldve been much better off in FFXI and might not have quit <might being the key word there. i quit for various reasons> i just dont like shooting down possible solutions to problems. people are so good at seeing the negatives in things that they have trouble seeing the positives. especially when lookingat something that is normally bad

i was mostly ***** cuz the person before me was speaking in absolutes, saying that nobody wanted it when clearly the poll speaks otherwise <many dotn want it but many also do want it, want it but wont publically support it, or dont care either way> and that peeves me.

i dont like being he bad guy, nor do i like being made a fool of, and it seems as though you trying to do both and i would appreciate if you would stop. this whole thing is pointless, i mean

1)i doubt the outcome of this argument will affect SE and what they plan to do in anyway

2)in the end we're really on the same side

3)since when has arguing over the internet solved anything o_0


Edited, Jun 9th 2009 1:03am by vedina
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#77 Jun 08 2009 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Before I say anything allow me to state that my personal view on RMT is mmorpgs would be better without them. That said...

The effect RMT had on the AH economy actually had little to do with it. The problem was everyone forgot the true value of the items they were buying/selling.

Every day I found items for sale in the AH that I could simply walk down the road to a store and purchase for 10% of what these people were asking. It was like everyone simply forgot these stores were there.

If everyone just stoped buying things at outragous prices the economy would stablize no matter how much gil is spread around.

Now, how does one determine the true value of an item? Well, the only reason why I would ever purchase an item from a player was in the event that item's price was cheaper than what I could find in a store. So, the ideal price range to sell an item would fall above what a store would offer me to buy that item from me, and below what a store would offer me to sell that item to me.

I understand that alot of items are simply not sold in stores, but by using simple math one can determine the percentage ratio with any given item that is sold and use that to determine a fair asking price based upon the offered price a store gives me to purchase said item.

#78 Jun 08 2009 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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vedina wrote:
in this particular situation though, your wrong. we arent competing against one another. we're allies.

Even in a purely PvE there is competition. That's why people get angry when someone ninjas an item from the or hacks their account, even though that person is an "ally." People are competing to get into parties, guilds, for DKP, or simply to have the best gear. I, and most of the players I know, would find it incredibly distasteful if a player were allowed to buy his way to max level and obtain all the rarest equipment. Not only does this player have a distinct advantage in any sort of content, but his money trivializes real players' effort. Most players feel a sense of accomplishment when they reach max level or obtain a rare piece of equipment. It was difficult, but they did it. RMT weakens or destroys that sense of accomplishment. There's no difference in game between RMT and cheating. Someone who buys a level 75 is exactly the same as someone who hacks his character to level 75.

Furthermore, RMT is a game where no one can win. If everyone simply buys the uberest of items with real cash, then existing content because too easy and is trivialized. It's boring to play. In addition, you have no sense of accomplishment because everyone else also has bought their item. You can only win by outspending other people, who are also trying to outspend you. The Nash equilibrium is for everyone to lose.
vedina wrote:
i just dont like shooting down possible solutions to problems. people are so good at seeing the negatives in things that they have trouble seeing the positives. especially when lookingat something that is normally bad

I'm not sure what you want people to do?

I see the positives. There would be slightly fewer gil sellers spamming and slightly fewer gil farmers farming. There would still be illegal RMT if it was legalized, because those businesses still want to profit. SE simply becomes competition.

However, in doing so RMT actually increases, because players no longer fear bans, and SE no longer has a stance against it.

It seems quite obvious here the the negatives massively outweigh the positives. It's a bad idea. What is wrong with shooting down bad ideas after they have been discussed and their problems have become evident? Why are so many posters on this board afraid to be honest when something doesn't work out or isn't a good idea. It reminds me of when I used to post on the FFXI boards and explain to new players that war/whm was not a good combination. People told me I was being negative. Really, I mean I suppose I was, but isn't it more important to give good advice than to give pleasant advice?

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 1:35am by Allegory
#79 Jun 08 2009 at 11:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I won't play a game with micro transactions, because it create a direct financial incentive for the game to be balanced around paying as much money as possible.

Say what you will about RMT, at least they don't get direct say in the design of the game itself. I'd rather play a game where the developers are fighting an uphill battle against RMT and deal with some of the RMT BS, than to play a game where the devs ARE the RMT, and I have to deal with new heights of BS.
#80 Jun 08 2009 at 11:32 PM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
I won't play a game with micro transactions, because it create a direct financial incentive for the game to be balanced around paying as much money as possible.

Say what you will about RMT, at least they don't get direct say in the design of the game itself. I'd rather play a game where the developers are fighting an uphill battle against RMT and deal with some of the RMT BS, than to play a game where the devs ARE the RMT, and I have to deal with new heights of BS.


I can just imagine forming a party, fighting through hordes of monsters, defeating an epic boss, aproaching the treasure chest, taking a moment to think about all the time and work I spent to get to this point, slowly opening the chest and discovering to my delight....a bill.
#81 Jun 08 2009 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I think that having to pay a monthly fee is enough. Why spend even more money. If you think about how much money you spend a month plus all the money your gonna waste on a game you wont be playing 7 years from now then think about what you could have done with it. Travel, New T.V. Investing, you name it. That would make me sick lol. As far as RMT goes I still have the same theory. Make gil more accessable, Give more armor options, make all NM drops BoP so that they cant be sold for huge amounts of gil and thus making bots pointless. Also when you make things BoP you dont have people over camping mobs unelss they need drops for crafting.
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#82 Jun 09 2009 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
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I hope SE does'nt do that... It would take away the fun out of the game people would just buy items and show them off sit in jeuno all damm day.. I love the hunt however bots suck and people should be ban for life!
#83 Jun 09 2009 at 1:40 AM Rating: Good
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There are only three ways to eliminate illegal RMT from a MMO like this.

1. SE needs to be super vigilante and crack down hard on any RMT. We have seen from FFXI that in the end, they aren't really willing to go the extra mile with this option.
2. SE becomes legal RMT, which clearly everyone is against, but hey, it IS an option which would eliminate almost all illegal RMT.
3. There is no in-game currency, ergo no RMT. By this I mean everything is obtained through quests and fights.

While I am no supporter of RMT, legal or otherwise, I do think that you need to compromise if you want to get rid of illegal RMT. Additionally, I find it amusing that a lot of people who go ape over RMT topics, will then go on to talk about how they will make money from selling their account before they move to FFXIV/Another MMO etc. Hypocrisy rules it seems.
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#84 Jun 09 2009 at 1:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Speaking as a player who is from the ps2 release and long retired ( I do play once every few weeks on a new character for fun with a friend till 14 comes out ), I can honestly say I bought possibly 5-6 mil over a period of 3 years ( for the record I also farmed/sky drops close to 4 m over that time also ), my original reason for this was simply this:

It was complete and utter BS for me to farm for weeks in order to have my 2x snipers and haub ( back then they were stupid expensive and I would have felt just the same if I had farmed it legit gear is gear people lulz ) just in order to gain a pty/xp, I was a melee and knew my job and played it to the fullest extent I could, I was the kind of guy who ( back then it was unheard of almost ) to macro in gear switches based on the stat boosts etc, knew my sc all of it, I had sky and sea long before most had it on the server, I was not a noob, in fact I was quite a good player but eventually got bored to death of end game drama and moronic players who would ******** their way to popularity.

I realised that I knew the game ( quests, leveling etc ) quite well, but could not be bothered to sacrifice my real life time to sit in gusgen mining 24/7 and camping nm, even doing multiple bc runs with static buddies was not really that hot for pulling in fast money, so yea I don't look back spending what maybe $10 usd every few months for an abjuration drop I wanted instantly, or an xping item I needed badly, if I was some 14 year old kid living on mom n dad maybe I would have the time to sacrifice getting laid or sleep or even leeching on society to spend my life playing like some eltitis ( ie no life ) moron and get stuff 100% legit, sorry that kind of money is a joke to me I just blew $800 on a nice new guitar, and besides....I made a few hundred on selling my character ( thanks for letting me have some of my wasted monthly fee back SE thats you're apology to me for bs server ***** ups, downtime, yesindeed you are sorry but want my money and I want and will get some money back ) and don't regret any of it for a second because I enjoyed what I was able to do in the years I played.

And for those types saying omg get off my game, that's comedy because: 1 it is not you're game it is a game we pay SE ( and I have not respected them since psx days ) to play monthly, and 2 when you pay my monthly fee you might actually have a say in how I should play lulz.

Many other MMO's ( especially free ones ) have RMT official items, RO has it actually has a much better economy than FFXI, Rogue actually pulls in money how a THF really should and things like that. So I can't say I would ignore it if SE made a worthwhile RMT item service. I can gurantee that when I do join 14 that I will be learning the game, leveling with friends, and if I am forced to spend some stupid time farming for needed ( but not extreme uber ) gear I will be buying gil and enjoying the game 99% legit in other ways.

There is a huge number of players who do not bot, who play the game in otherwise normal legit ways, who do buy mmo money, there is a ton on here even who will never admit to it who have/still do it, because they know the bs that has been created behind it, I'm not saying buying gil is a positive thing for mmo's but in some cases it is a much smarter choice to maximize the fun you get out of these kinds of games, and because it is so cheap it is a fairly solid reason to purchase it considering you are paying a cheap monthly fee anyway just to play the game.

Btw, the main reason RMT exists is actually player's faults ( and the nature itself of items in 99% of all mmo's ), when you jack items up that people need or want, you are going to have RMT to sell gil so those players can get those items that elitist's in game push people to own or they are gimp, don't like it ? then don't do that stuff, Greed is a horrible thing and has brought out the worst in many players and shells over the years. I mean god the attitudes people have over this stuff is comedy gold, I bet some of these kids on these games would have more of a problem with RMT than an irl rapist or pedophile.

Just my 2 cents.
#85 Jun 09 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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i agree 100% with the poster above


why does it matter so much to other people how i play MY portion of the game that I spend MY money on every month

if you have that big a problem with people doing something like buying 100k gil online, then you must hate the knowlege that in non online game speople game shark it to level 99 immediately while you fought tediously monster by monster to get there

you have fun your why, others will have fun their way. but dont condemn people for playing differently than you because you dont like it



if you get satisfaction from spending hours and hours doing this and that. if you get asense of accomplishment out of completing a super hard quest and obtaining an uber piece of equipment. awesome, good for you, i completely respect that, im one of you after all

but others dont find that fun or accomplishing at all. why force them into something. they spend RL money on the game legitly from the monthly fee. imo that should give them full right to enjoy the game how they please <to an extent> and if they dont have fun questing, but need that armor for some other purpose that they DO find fun, why bar them from having fun. because it makes YOU feel less accomplished? thats childish. other peoples enjoyment shouldnt lessen your own. if it does, then i feel sorry for you because there are a lot of people out there who are enjoying themselves, both in real life and in various games


should we have legal RMT in FFXIV? im honestly not sure. i can definately see that lines need to be drawn, even i see buying max leveled characters going a liiiiitle far <though i understand some people may have been forced to quit the game at some point and simply want to get back into it without having to start from scratch.> but buying gil and certain items <there should and will be items that cant be traded, only quested or dropped from a kill. there is in all 7 mmo's ive played> i just dont see that bad if their smart with it. there ARE ways to make it work

but i can see the engative end of the spectrum too. in the end i dont care. legal or not. i am one of the people who enjoys questing for stuff. but i understand that not everyone thinks like me and wants to spend potentially huge amounts of time, in their minds, NOT having fun to get something they need TO have fun. i dont judge, like far to many of you do. thats why i voted "i dont care". i didnt vote yes because i reall am not 100% sure. i didnt vote no for the same reason, and plus im not really against it anyway, and i didnt vote that i do it secretly because its no secret, i openly admit to buying gil before but later realized i had more fun doing things "legit" but i certainly never looked on what i did as negative
#86 Jun 09 2009 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,804 posts
Please read threads before you post in them.
hyakusen wrote:
if you have that big a problem with people doing something like buying 100k gil online, then you must hate the knowlege that in non online game speople game shark it to level 99 immediately while you fought tediously monster by monster to get there

A valid comparison would be "If you have a problem with people buying 100k gil online, then you must hate it when people hack their characters in online games as well."

If an MMORPG were a single player game then I wouldn't mind, but it's not. There's zero difference between someone buying 100k gil and hacking the game to give himself 100k gil. You can't agree with one action and not agree with the other. This has already been said.
hyakusen wrote:
And for those types saying omg get off my game, that's comedy because: 1 it is not you're game it is a game we pay SE ( and I have not respected them since psx days ) to play monthly, and 2 when you pay my monthly fee you might actually have a say in how I should play lulz.

This is the same argument people used to attempt to use to excuse their actions in a party. You're paying your monthly fee, but you aren't paying mine. When you start paying for my monthly fee in an online game, then you can RMT. When you start paying for every players' subscription fee, then you are free to hurt their gaming experience however you want. Until then, no.

Why can't I speed hack? Why can't I do what I want with my character and my subscription fee? Do you see how that is a silly argument?

When you RMT or hack in an online game, even in a pve game, it DOES affect everyone else.

It's also incredibly short sighted to allow RMT in a game. Most every MMORPG that does it sucks incredibly badly and becomes little more than a money sink. One of the most popular Chinese MMORPG lets you RMT, how did that work out for the players?

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 4:42pm by Allegory
#87 Jun 09 2009 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
9 posts
I will admit... i bought gil in FFXI when i played the second time around. The market was crappy since so many people left, but rare/ex items kind of helped lower inflation

I make enough money i looked at it this way... i want 1million gil... how long will it take me to get that... hmm a long time. Well 1million costs me... 40 or something, yeah i will just work for 1 hour extra and pay for the gil and not spend a small fortune of time getting gil.

If FFXI did not have such a tedious, time consuming, boring and ridiculous path to getting gil i would never have bought it. Sure in games like WoW you get too much but in FFXI you got none except for killing random things, doing eco or bcnm's and even then you don't get much(oh or doing missions).

I don't support buying gil but why would i spend 10-30+ hours getting 1million gil when i could work for 1-2 hours and buy it... why waste my time. No one really enjoys farming for gil either in FFXI except if you are crafting. Even then some people don't like it. I enjoyed fishing but was it EVER going to make me 1million gil? Nope.

Oh on top of that FFXI's AH history ALWAYS kept the price high. All someone had to do to bump up the price of something is to sell it to a friend or linkshell and keep passing the item to each other... boom the item is worth way too much because everyone looks and says "oh well its worth 200k... i will sell it for that much" Undercutting was never much of an issue in FFXI either except for high movement stuff like ores and other crafting stuff.

Hmm just remembered my main accounts username(password wasn't hitting my e-mail address.) be on my main. In case someone asks... lol

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 5:54pm by nickw

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 5:54pm by nickw
#88 Jun 09 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Default
6 posts
Allegory wrote:
Please read threads before you post in them.


oh i did. me not agreeing with you has nothing to do with a lack of reading. not everyone in life will agree with you, deal with it. its not because "oh well they just dont understand" or "they must have 1/2 the story" no its because we simply have different views

hyakusen wrote:
if you have that big a problem with people doing something like buying 100k gil online, then you must hate the knowlege that in non online game speople game shark it to level 99 immediately while you fought tediously monster by monster to get there



Allegory wrote:
A valid comparison would be "If you have a problem with people buying 100k gil online, then you must hate it when people hack their characters in online games as well."

If an MMORPG were a single player game then I wouldn't mind, but it's not. There's zero difference between someone buying 100k gil and hacking the game to give himself 100k gil. You can't agree with one action and not agree with the other. This has already been said.


your right, there isnt a difference. and i dont have a problem with either. i dont care if somebody buys the gil or hacks it or crafted for it "legitly" or however they got it. how they got it is their business, and if they enjoy the game more for it, then by all means. after spending X amount to buy the game, X amount per month as payment for the game, and X amount to buy their online currency, they are entitled to have fun with their game

hyakusen wrote:
And for those types saying omg get off my game, that's comedy because: 1 it is not you're game it is a game we pay SE ( and I have not respected them since psx days ) to play monthly, and 2 when you pay my monthly fee you might actually have a say in how I should play lulz.


i didnt say that. misquoted for the loss. the guy before me said that

Allegory wrote:
This is the same argument people used to attempt to use to excuse their actions in a party. You're paying your monthly fee, but you aren't paying mine. When you start paying for my monthly fee in an online game, then you can RMT. When you start paying for every players' subscription fee, then you are free to hurt their gaming experience however you want. Until then, no.


/facepalm

and thats my point. WHY does it hurt YOUR gaming experience that im having fun in a different way than you. why do you get to dictate how i have fun. why is it that only your way of having fun is acceptable and anybody who has fun a different way takes fun away from you. thats just pathetic. your acting like some elementary school bully taking away everyone elses toys because they like their toys more than yours

Allegory wrote:
Why can't I speed hack? Why can't I do what I want with my character and my subscription fee? Do you see how that is a silly argument?


no i do not see how its a silly argument. you seem to think that you disagreeing with me is going to automatically make me see things your way. in that sentence right there i see nothing wrong with what your talking about. so long as the "physics" of the game allows you to do something, i dont see how its wrong.

take buying gil as an example. fundamentally all it is is a player trading gil to another player. but deals outside the game were made that caused the trade to happen. as far as the game is concerned, a simple trade was made and couldve been anything from a friendly gift, someone quitting and giving stuff away, an experienced player helping a noob, etc etc. so long as the game, not the developers, but the game itsself allows you to do it then no, i dont see it as being wrong

Allegory wrote:
When you RMT or hack in an online game, even in a pve game, it DOES affect everyone else.


ok using gil as an example again. please explain to me how john smith buying gil effects jane doe

and how is she aware JS did what he did.

help me understand your side because as of now, i dont. all im seeing is both of uselessly going back and forth and im sick of it
so from this point on i would like this to be more civil and less of both of us poking a sleeping bear

i want to see and understand your side as much as i want you to see and understand mine. so help out dude
#89 Jun 09 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
**
423 posts
Quote:
ok using gil as an example again. please explain to me how john smith buying gil effects jane doe

and how is she aware JS did what he did.

help me understand your side because as of now, i dont. all im seeing is both of uselessly going back and forth and im sick of it
so from this point on i would like this to be more civil and less of both of us poking a sleeping bear

i want to see and understand your side as much as i want you to see and understand mine. so help out dude


nickw here...

Actually it does affect people. You buy this gear from the auction house. You fuel high prices because you bought gil since you didn't want to work for it. You give a false image of supply and demand.

How does it affect other people? Well jane doe is affected because anything she wants to buy is up in price to compensate for what you bought. Not only that it encourages gilbuyers to camp items that jane doe might want that you just purchased. ON TOP of that she now has to work harder just to play the game because when someone notices your gear and her gear you will get a party invite over her even if you are the same class.

How does it not affect everyone? You seem to be so sure, we made an arguement, counter back... tell us how it doesn't.
#90 Jun 09 2009 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
70 posts
keep gil the way it is in ff11
make only the basic gear avaiable thru npcs
everything else make ra/ex but npcable

for example u could have 2 or 3 different versions of the same sword one u can buy from stores, and the others u have to find. those other versions can be ra/ex untradeable but still npcable with better stats then the orginal.

this way if u buy gil and go for the easy way out, u can't get the best of the best. but this pretty much gets rid of the AH which is one thing i really liked about FF11. i guess they can still keep it if they only use it for consumable items, and crafted items/weapons.

back to the point tho, NO RMT's.
#91 Jun 09 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Default
6 posts
boriss wrote:
Quote:
ok using gil as an example again. please explain to me how john smith buying gil effects jane doe

and how is she aware JS did what he did.

help me understand your side because as of now, i dont. all im seeing is both of uselessly going back and forth and im sick of it
so from this point on i would like this to be more civil and less of both of us poking a sleeping bear

i want to see and understand your side as much as i want you to see and understand mine. so help out dude


nickw here...

Actually it does affect people. You buy this gear from the auction house. You fuel high prices because you bought gil since you didn't want to work for it. You give a false image of supply and demand.

How does it affect other people? Well jane doe is affected because anything she wants to buy is up in price to compensate for what you bought. Not only that it encourages gilbuyers to camp items that jane doe might want that you just purchased. ON TOP of that she now has to work harder just to play the game because when someone notices your gear and her gear you will get a party invite over her even if you are the same class.

How does it not affect everyone? You seem to be so sure, we made an arguement, counter back... tell us how it doesn't.



hey now, no need to get snippy ^_^. i thought i made it pretty clear that im not trying to blatently go against Allegory, you or everyone else who doesnt agree with me when i said that i really wanted to see your side and that i was tired of poking sleeping bears. lets try to keep this civil please. and if you recall i even stated that im NOT sure more than once, and that i voted "i dont care" because i wasnt really for or against it


now what you did there was a fine argument. THAT is something i can understand. most of what was getting said before was simply "it makes me have less fun" <more or less> and i was sitting at my computer going "o_0 how in the world does that work" and most of that was coming from Allegory, which is why i wanted a response from him. *sigh* now i may never make sense of what he's saying. now there will always be the doubt in my mind wondering if thats Allegory's argument or him using your argument



in direct response to you: ok it feuls high prices. but i refuse to believe thats entirely because of RMT. there are plenty of people who make loads of money "legitly" and their buying stuff for the rediculous prices as well. you cant put all the blame on one group. people with money generally dont care how much stuff costs because they have the money to get it. in fact i would go so far as to say the people with consistant ingame income are just as big, if not a bigger, part of the problem. my reasoning is that you can only spend so much money in real life to buy fake money before you cant spend anymore, you only have so much, and many people have "meh" paying jobs and couldnt afford to buy gil on top of the monthly game fee even if they wanted to. or the kids who have no money at all because they dont have jobs and their parents cant/wont use real money to buy fake money. but people who have great ingame sources of income can keep buying and buying these items no matter what the price

in the end i believe there are to many variables to truely pin it all on one source. yes you answered my question how it affects others, and i both thank and applaud you for it <even though i was targeting somebody else> so now my new challenge is this. prove to me that RMT is the biggest reason for bad ingame economies. basically, prove to me that its soooo big a problem that SE shouldnt do it legally regardless of how they do it
#92 Jun 09 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
Repressed Memories
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20,804 posts
hyakusen wrote:
oh i did. me not agreeing with you has nothing to do with a lack of reading.

It has nothing to do with you can disagree with me. I'm perfectly fine with you disagreeing with me. The problem is that you brought up points I ALREADY addressed before you even posted them.
hyakusen wrote:
your right, there isnt a difference. and i dont have a problem with either. i dont care if somebody buys the gil or hacks it or crafted for it "legitly" or however they got it. how they got it is their business, and if they enjoy the game more for it, then by all means. after spending X amount to buy the game, X amount per month as payment for the game, and X amount to buy their online currency, they are entitled to have fun with their game

It seem we have a more fundamental problem then. You're completely ok with someone hacking the game for gil? What about other types of hacks?
hyakusen wrote:
i didnt say that. misquoted for the loss. the guy before me said that

I apologize for incorrectly attributing the quote.
hyakusen wrote:
/facepalm

and thats my point. WHY does it hurt YOUR gaming experience that im having fun in a different way than you. why do you get to dictate how i have fun. why is it that only your way of having fun is acceptable and anybody who has fun a different way takes fun away from you. thats just pathetic. your acting like some elementary school bully taking away everyone elses toys because they like their toys more than yours

This is why I said you haven't read teh thread, because I already answered this question.
Allegory wrote:
Even in a purely PvE there is competition. That's why people get angry when someone ninjas an item from the or hacks their account, even though that person is an "ally." People are competing to get into parties, guilds, for DKP, or simply to have the best gear. I, and most of the players I know, would find it incredibly distasteful if a player were allowed to buy his way to max level and obtain all the rarest equipment. Not only does this player have a distinct advantage in any sort of content, but his money trivializes real players' effort. Most players feel a sense of accomplishment when they reach max level or obtain a rare piece of equipment. It was difficult, but they did it. RMT weakens or destroys that sense of accomplishment. There's no difference in game between RMT and cheating. Someone who buys a level 75 is exactly the same as someone who hacks his character to level 75.

The genre of game is called MMORPG. It's not a single player game. You don't exist in a vacuum. Most everything you do affects other players. Some actions are more direct and some are more indirect. For example a speed hacker can kill mobs faster than a normal player. It may seem like he's only affecting his character in a pve game, but he could clear up entire camps very quickly, leaving few mobs for other players to level up on, hindering their game experience.

RMT can be a huge or tiny problem, depending on how it exists in the game.
hyakusen wrote:
take buying gil as an example. fundamentally all it is is a player trading gil to another player. but deals outside the game were made that caused the trade to happen. as far as the game is concerned, a simple trade was made and couldve been anything from a friendly gift, someone quitting and giving stuff away, an experienced player helping a noob, etc etc. so long as the game, not the developers, but the game itsself allows you to do it then no, i dont see it as being wrong

Two problems there.

1. Buying gil isn't the same as receiving gil as a gift because someone is you RL friend. You you buy/hack gil you are using a means outside the game to generate gil. A gift of gil still had to be earned within the means of the game system. In buy/hacking gil you are creating something in the game world, from nothing in the game world. When you trade gil, even as a gift, you are simply reallocating something that was created in the game world from effort/items in the game world. It's the difference between creating energy from nothing and transferring energy between different forms.

2. Gifts are impossible to regulate. Even if you ignore the first point completely, you can accept gil gifting as an irremovable evil. Just because you cannot stop something bad from happening, doens't mean you should begin to encourage it.
#93 Jun 09 2009 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
4 posts
Quote:
I would buy gil if it makes me awesome. I like being awesome, and awesome costs money. I would buy money with money, because it would be like buying awesome. Can I buy awesome with awesome? That makes my head hurt


Genetically superior baby! that's what its all about we get awesome, we get the ladies, we got all the hot toys!
#94 Jun 09 2009 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
8 posts
The heart of the problem is human nature and greed.

Sometime in 2005 prices skyrocketed on my server, the typical gear went up a good 50%, so people need to take this into perspective for a minute before putting all blame on RMT, it is true RMT contribute to many problem in XI and other games ( such as when they started camping sky and botting etc ), let's say everyone has to buy a Huaberk, and they typically went for 1m, now let's say people do a bunch of bcnm or whatever for the item to make it. Suddenly people start saying oh I need this torque or this or that so ima raise the prices by 500k, now some other dude goes and buys it for 1.5m, people see this and say oh well people will pay it.

You then have a problem with inflation. Nobody and I mean nobody is going to suddenly lower it to what it is really worth out of the kindness of their heart lmao, they are just going to keep the price high till something happens. In the case of this 50% rise, SE went and banned a ton of RMT and people, which caused the prices to lower, sadly...while prices are lower now, items in general are lower so again we face a problem of trying to get gil fast for items that really help certain jobs being effective in a pty, which enhances the play experience for most of the pty/xp per hour.

But again getting back to RMT items, just as an example in Ragnarok they started with kaftra points, now you have two options here, every time you pay for you're monthly subscription you gain 100 K points, these can be used for better crafting, or perma items, some which make items in XI look like a joke, you can also choose to buy more points, I did and there is a hat I got which is basically 2x empress pins in one, it lasts forever too.

So I don't see what the big problem would be if SE said ok here is 100 points, turn them in for rare ex items or save them up to turn them in, that does nothing to the economy because it would be rare ex, you can't baz it or anything and if they made some better than normal sellable drops, it would also cut down on certain price inflation which leads to gil buying.
#95 Jun 09 2009 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
*
139 posts
Quote:
keep gil the way it is in ff11
make only the basic gear avaiable thru npcs
everything else make ra/ex but npcable

for example u could have 2 or 3 different versions of the same sword one u can buy from stores, and the others u have to find. those other versions can be ra/ex untradeable but still npcable with better stats then the orginal.

this way if u buy gil and go for the easy way out, u can't get the best of the best. but this pretty much gets rid of the AH which is one thing i really liked about FF11. i guess they can still keep it if they only use it for consumable items, and crafted items/weapons.

back to the point tho, NO RMT's.


good post. i rated you up, bud.

i don't think your idea ruins the AH either, as players need an outlet to sell crafted gear and also used gear that they've outleveled. there's an optimal price for used gear somewhere below what you paid for it and more than what an npc will offer you for it.
#96 Jun 09 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Default
6 posts
Allegory wrote:
hyakusen wrote:
oh i did. me not agreeing with you has nothing to do with a lack of reading.

It has nothing to do with you can disagree with me. I'm perfectly fine with you disagreeing with me. The problem is that you brought up points I ALREADY addressed before you even posted them.


the problem still isnt with me not reading, because i have. im fully aware of the points you "addressed". i just dont believe you addressed them well enough, hence me bringing them up again, hopefully spuring you to reword your arguement better. it isnt always your opponents fault you know. i read the entire thread. and even then even if i was in the wrong, there are lots of points being made in the thread and lots of them being "addressed", that just seems ignorant of you to think everyone is going to remember every single one of them. of course that isnt the problem here, thats more for your future reference. the problem here was me not thinking you did a good enough job. after all if you had, well ide be on your side and not still on middle grounds wouldnt I.


hyakusen wrote:
your right, there isnt a difference. and i dont have a problem with either. i dont care if somebody buys the gil or hacks it or crafted for it "legitly" or however they got it. how they got it is their business, and if they enjoy the game more for it, then by all means. after spending X amount to buy the game, X amount per month as payment for the game, and X amount to buy their online currency, they are entitled to have fun with their game


Allegory wrote:
It seem we have a more fundamental problem then. You're completely ok with someone hacking the game for gil? What about other types of hacks?


well for starters we have very different views on this part. hacking and buying, no matter what you say, ar enot the same. later on in your post you say its like making it out of thin air..thats just not true


hacking: it is coming out of thin air. you are creating more money
buying: they may be doing illegal things with it but the gilsellers DID get it legitly. they did not create money out of thin air, they farmed NM and crafted and stuff <but mostly camp NM> meaning that no extra money is created. you could simply say they did the work for you. while with hacking, no work was done at all

if you disagree then pelase be more clear on how they are the same because im not getting it. maybe im stupuid, maybe your bad at explaining things <i know i am>, or whatever. but i dont understand how you think they are the same. and like i said before, i DO want to see your side


hyakusen wrote:
/facepalm

and thats my point. WHY does it hurt YOUR gaming experience that im having fun in a different way than you. why do you get to dictate how i have fun. why is it that only your way of having fun is acceptable and anybody who has fun a different way takes fun away from you. thats just pathetic. your acting like some elementary school bully taking away everyone elses toys because they like their toys more than yours


Allegory wrote:
This is why I said you haven't read teh thread, because I already answered this question.

Allegory wrote:
Even in a purely PvE there is competition. That's why people get angry when someone ninjas an item from the or hacks their account, even though that person is an "ally." People are competing to get into parties, guilds, for DKP, or simply to have the best gear. I, and most of the players I know, would find it incredibly distasteful if a player were allowed to buy his way to max level and obtain all the rarest equipment. Not only does this player have a distinct advantage in any sort of content, but his money trivializes real players' effort. Most players feel a sense of accomplishment when they reach max level or obtain a rare piece of equipment. It was difficult, but they did it. RMT weakens or destroys that sense of accomplishment. There's no difference in game between RMT and cheating. Someone who buys a level 75 is exactly the same as someone who hacks his character to level 75.


so people who buy gil and gear and stuff arent real players? well now its down to personal definition, which is why i dotn think this is a valid argument, just like with your hacking being the same as buying thing. you see it as hacking, i dont. we must have different definitions of it because i see hacking as doing something the game doesnt allow you to do, not the people in charge of the game, but the game itsself will now allow you to do. buying gil, as i said, is essentiaally a trade from one player to another at its core. meaning its something the game DOES allow you to do. the money didnt magically appear, it was given to you by another person on the game. if it was hacked, then it magically appeared

now you say people who buy this stuff arent real players? well imo they are. what does it take to be a player? imo you logging on and spending time in the game doing "whatever" <whether it be just standign there, talkign to people, leveling, crafting, questing, whatev> makes you every bit a player as someone who spends every waking hour on the game fighting super bosses and collecting super rare items

but thats just what i think. and i also think alot of our disagreements are coming from differences in definition

Allegory wrote:
The genre of game is called MMORPG. It's not a single player game. You don't exist in a vacuum. Most everything you do affects other players. Some actions are more direct and some are more indirect. For example a speed hacker can kill mobs faster than a normal player. It may seem like he's only affecting his character in a pve game, but he could clear up entire camps very quickly, leaving few mobs for other players to level up on, hindering their game experience.


well its a good thing we're not talking about speed hacking then. in that case your right, i totally see how SE shouldnt allow players to kill things super fast and clear entire camps leaving everyone else with nothing to do and hindering their exp gain

now on to what we're actually arguing about...

Allegory wrote:
RMT can be a huge or tiny problem, depending on how it exists in the game.


your right and i do believe that is what this entire thread is about. there are ways to completely stop RMT. however i believe, in fact i would think most if not all would agree, that it would make the game quite restrictive. since its the most common thing <i woudl think so anyway> to buy online, lets once again use currency as an example. they could stop gil selling quite easily by making gil untradable...making legit trades impossible. lets say the economy in the game gets bad for reasons beyond RMT <in this RMTless world> it makes it impossible for newbies to recieve any sort of financial help from experienced players. they can offer advice sure, but you have to spend money to make money, and upping the gil you start with would likely just make things worse. so it restricted players from helping players <and it restricted them in other ways, this was just one example> and doing the harcore method of banning RMT all together would create similar and different problems

ide rather they use the virus as a vaccine to help cure the problem rather than quarantine us entirely and make, what imo would be, a worse game

hyakusen wrote:
take buying gil as an example. fundamentally all it is is a player trading gil to another player. but deals outside the game were made that caused the trade to happen. as far as the game is concerned, a simple trade was made and couldve been anything from a friendly gift, someone quitting and giving stuff away, an experienced player helping a noob, etc etc. so long as the game, not the developers, but the game itsself allows you to do it then no, i dont see it as being wrong


Allegory wrote:
Two problems there.

1. Buying gil isn't the same as receiving gil as a gift because someone is you RL friend.


maybe i wasnt very clear <or maybe you werent reading properly :p (j/k, just poking fun) lol> when you buy gil, how does it work.

step one: you go online and choose your source

step two: you look at the prices and the gain and buy however much you want/need/can afford/whatever and buy it

step three: you log in to the game and await the delivery

step four: they contact you and SEND you the gil

there, that is how it works, as im sure you know to an extent <not accusing you of doing it, its just that most/all of its pretty obvious>. however the game will not register most of that. the game only registers one player sending gil to another player. the purpose of it being sent remains a mystery to the game itsself, a mystery it doesnt care about. i was using friendly gifts and the like as examples. because as far as the game itsself, an emotionless computer program, is concerned, it IS the same thing

Allegory wrote:
You you buy/hack gil you are using a means outside the game to generate gil.


again my point was that regardless of how it happend, the game only registers that it did happen

Allegory wrote:
A gift of gil still had to be earned within the means of the game system.


and it was. if it was outside the means of the system then it wouldve come out of nowhere, but "I" got the money from another player. that is within full means of the system

[quote=]In buy/hacking gil you are creating something in the game worldfrom nothing in the game world.


no im not. the money didnt magically appear like you seem to think it does. it came from another player and was traded to me within full means of the games functions. hence why buying and hacking are not the same thing. nothing was created unless the RMT people are TRUELY hacking. but i doubt thats the case considering all of them i remeber seeing camping various NM. why do that when they could have just hacked it?

[quote=Allegory]When you trade gil, even as a gift, you are simply reallocating something that was created in the game world from effort/items in the game world.[/quote]

the gil itsself is not in question. just the method of obtaining it. the gilsellers, as previously stated, ARE working legitly for the money, they just plan to do unlegit things with it. and what do they do with it. well take out the part about selling it they are just reallocating it

[quote=Allegory]It's the difference between creating energy from nothing and transferring energy between different forms.[/quote]

correct me if im wrong, i havent taken a science class since highschool, but i do beileve energy cant be created or destroyed, only transfered. i like the example but IIRC <and like i said, i might not> the example is physically impossible

even still, your still not creating anything, its still a transfer. the gil went from their hands to mine. it wasnt automatically in mine

[quote=Allegory]2. Gifts are impossible to regulate. Even if you ignore the first point completely, you can accept gil gifting as an irremovable evil. Just because you cannot stop something bad from happening, doens't mean you should begin to encourage it.[/quote]

exactly. its <RMT> impossible to truely stop without taking away something else that we simply SHOULD be able to do <trading between players> but if we cant stop it, the least that could be done is it be controlled. and it is possible to do so if they legalized it

who is doing the RMT anyway? my guess <and thats all it is, i really have no idea> is that they are at home "businesses" to make a little money. i doubt they could compete with SE if they legalized it


think of it like this. RMT is a small family owned store and SE is a super corperation store type of thing like walmart or something

RMT does pretty good business. but then SE comes to town. now SE doesnt want competition, so they decide to destroy their competition by using their money as an advantage

they have plenty of money and make money off of other stores they own so they can afford to make little-no profit off this store for a little while. so they sell stuff at a stupid low price. people stop going to RMT because RMT is much more expensive. with no customers, RMT goes out of business

its especially helpful that RMT people are already paying SE just to be involved with their game <kinda hard to trade gil and items and stuff to people without an account and a characer> so just to keep shop open they are paying "rent" so to speak. well you could see this as SE raising thei rent to a level where they just cant operate in that space anymore

thats the gist of it. doing it this way <or various other ways> at least keeps it under control. its better than keeping it illegal and either

a)having them run rampant doing what they please

or

b)taking away the ability to trade and other freedoms we should have in this and ANY game. especially mmo's




this took forever to write and i dont want to do this all day <i doubt you do either> so if this convinces you, respond with "i agree"


doesnt convince you respond <if you want> with one last post trying to make me see things your way. if i agree i'll post that i agree, if not..well im tired of this so i ust wont respond

in the end this thread isnt going to solve anythign except change the views of a few people, if even that. if you cant convince me with your next post <that may be none esistant, afterall you dont have to respond> then i say we just let bygons be bygons and agree to disagree. after all i doubt tis thread is going to effect SE at all. if they legalize it <which i highly doubt honestly> then they probably already have plans for that, and if they dont legalize it <the more likely route> then they have, again, likely already made up their minds on this matter. this whole thing isnt doing anything more than making enemies in game before the game even comes out. nd persoanlly ide prefer to start either neutral or with friends, not with pre-made enemies ^_^
#97 Jun 09 2009 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
Just to clarify a few things...

The latest trend in RMT is account hacking, They distribute key loggers, gather account information, log in with that information and strip the characters on the now-hecked account bare. They ship items of value to holding accounts and they destroy items that are of no value (ie. Rare/Ex) in the hopes that the developer is unwilling/unable to restore the character post hack. If you've invesedt 2 years of regular game play into a character and log in one day to find a naked toon and every GM you talk to says they're sorry but nothing can be done, are you going to be more or less inclined to buy game currency in order to recover at least some of what you had? I would imagine that the success rate on getting hacked toons to turn around and buy currency was relatively low, but I noticed some argument that game currency bought came from a legitimate source, and there's a very good chance that is flat out inaccurate.

One of the biggest gripes about RMT (and a legitimate one as far as I'm concerned) is that it puts substantial amounts of currency in the hands of players who don't "value" it the same way as a player who earned it within the structure of the game. It means that players who buy gil are more likely to undercut heavily on the AH to sell their stuff quickly because hey, why mess around and risk having it returned in my mailbox? Faster and easier to just undercut the **** out of everyone so that I can sell my 73 stacks of <whatever I used to skill up my tradeskill with materials that I bought in-game using currency that I bought from a gil-seller for real money>. On the other side of the coin, price histories on high-end items get skewed beyond belief. Some silly monkey comes along and lists his <hard to find item of mediocre benefit> on auction for 10 times the list price because hey, what's the worst that could happen? Then Barry McCurrencybuyer comes along and if Barry was the kind of guy with any measure of patience, he would have farmed his currency himself. Except Barry is not a patient person. Barry wants everything now. He wanted the currency on his toon asap, and now he wants the goodies asap.

1 gil, 1000 gil, 1 million gil....none of that has any meaning in of itself aside from one number being larger than the other. When I first started playing FFXI, 1000 gil was a small fortune to me. Around the time I stopped play, 1000 gil was less than 1/10th the cost of a single stack of bullets. The value isn't in the number, it's in the mind of the player. When outside influences are allowed to dictate the value of in-game currency instead of the players who are working within the structure of the game itself, things get out of control and nobody knows that better than SE.

I don't expect to see SE offering in-game items or currency for real money at any time in the future. I would be shocked beyond belief if there wasn't a method for SE to track and manage RMT activity integrated in FFXIV from day one of FFXIV's retail release.
#98 Jun 09 2009 at 5:14 PM Rating: Default
6 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
Just to clarify a few things...

The latest trend in RMT is account hacking, They distribute key loggers, gather account information, log in with that information and strip the characters on the now-hecked account bare. They ship items of value to holding accounts and they destroy items that are of no value (ie. Rare/Ex) in the hopes that the developer is unwilling/unable to restore the character post hack. If you've invesedt 2 years of regular game play into a character and log in one day to find a naked toon and every GM you talk to says they're sorry but nothing can be done, are you going to be more or less inclined to buy game currency in order to recover at least some of what you had? I would imagine that the success rate on getting hacked toons to turn around and buy currency was relatively low, but I noticed some argument that game currency bought came from a legitimate source, and there's a very good chance that is flat out inaccurate.

One of the biggest gripes about RMT (and a legitimate one as far as I'm concerned) is that it puts substantial amounts of currency in the hands of players who don't "value" it the same way as a player who earned it within the structure of the game. It means that players who buy gil are more likely to undercut heavily on the AH to sell their stuff quickly because hey, why mess around and risk having it returned in my mailbox? Faster and easier to just undercut the **** out of everyone so that I can sell my 73 stacks of <whatever I used to skill up my tradeskill with materials that I bought in-game using currency that I bought from a gil-seller for real money>. On the other side of the coin, price histories on high-end items get skewed beyond belief. Some silly monkey comes along and lists his <hard to find item of mediocre benefit> on auction for 10 times the list price because hey, what's the worst that could happen? Then Barry McCurrencybuyer comes along and if Barry was the kind of guy with any measure of patience, he would have farmed his currency himself. Except Barry is not a patient person. Barry wants everything now. He wanted the currency on his toon asap, and now he wants the goodies asap.

1 gil, 1000 gil, 1 million gil....none of that has any meaning in of itself aside from one number being larger than the other. When I first started playing FFXI, 1000 gil was a small fortune to me. Around the time I stopped play, 1000 gil was less than 1/10th the cost of a single stack of bullets. The value isn't in the number, it's in the mind of the player. When outside influences are allowed to dictate the value of in-game currency instead of the players who are working within the structure of the game itself, things get out of control and nobody knows that better than SE.

I don't expect to see SE offering in-game items or currency for real money at any time in the future. I would be shocked beyond belief if there wasn't a method for SE to track and manage RMT activity integrated in FFXIV from day one of FFXIV's retail release.


now that is something i agree with 100% however one thing i dont agree with. the part about patience

sometimes its not about patience but fun. paying X amount for the game and X amount per month on a GAME...well, i expect to have fun. im a very patient person. i can do incredibly tedious tasks for very long periods of time. but i have to either

1)enjoy it

2)not mind it


if i outright dislike it then i just cant do it regardless of difficulty...whether it be stupid easy or mind numbingly hard, i just cant do it unless im at least neutral.

sometimes people do this simply to have more fun because doing it the other way is just...dull

working for your stuff is all fine and dandy, but when im done after a long day of "work" i dont want to feel like i just got done doing some scut job. i want to feel accomplished. if i cant make money feeling accomplsished then i'll have to make money by buying it because unless you log on to just talk to people <which is totally cool. people are allowed to spend their time doign what they wish, and nothings wrong with a good conversation> or something like that, you need money.

the one thing i wish people would stop with is clumping the mindset and reasoning of every gilbuyer in the same catagory. everyones different and it isnt always a lack of patience, or laziness, or whatever.
#99 Jun 09 2009 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,576 posts
hyakusen wrote:

now that is something i agree with 100% however one thing i dont agree with. the part about patience

sometimes its not about patience but fun. paying X amount for the game and X amount per month on a GAME...well, i expect to have fun. im a very patient person. i can do incredibly tedious tasks for very long periods of time. but i have to either

1)enjoy it

2)not mind it


if i outright dislike it then i just cant do it regardless of difficulty...whether it be stupid easy or mind numbingly hard, i just cant do it unless im at least neutral.


And the tragedy is that love it or hate it, FFXI is not a game that can be fully enjoyed without a substantial amount of patience. What makes it worse is the narrow-mindedness of people who buy gil who don't stop to consider (or worse still, flat out deny) the negative impact their actions have on the community. I'm not trying to be vitriolic and mean, but it's the truth.

I was fully and completely blocked from anything to do with sky for over 3 months because RMT had such a stranglehold on Ullikummi and our LS leadership chose to take the (ironic) high road by choosing to suspend activities in sky rather than buy a trigger from RMT sellers. (I say ironic because at least 2 of the top officers in the guild were later exposed as gil buyers).

Tell the person whose account was hacked and characters stripped by RMT that people who buy gil aren't contributing to a negative experience for their fellow players. Tell the people who show up to the auction house to find the price on everything has quadrupled (or more) in 3 months because so much gold is being funneled into the hands of players that don't value it. Explain to them how any notion of supply/demand price normalization has completely gone out the window in part because of your choice to participate in the RMT cycle.

One of the things that was generally accepted as truth back when I played FFXI was that gil sellers and their monopolizing tactics were only a minor part of the problem. The gil sellers wouldn't have stuck around were there not a demand for their services. If nobody bought in-game currency for real money, disruptions in-game from RMT service providers would disappear practically overnight.

Quote:
sometimes people do this simply to have more fun because doing it the other way is just...dull


Ya, but a better alternative to buying gil would have simply been to find a game that was more to your liking as opposed to contributing to a problem that made the FFXI experience such a frustrating disappointment for such an extended length of time.

Quote:
working for your stuff is all fine and dandy, but when im done after a long day of "work" i dont want to feel like i just got done doing some scut job. i want to feel accomplished. if i cant make money feeling accomplsished then i'll have to make money by buying it because unless you log on to just talk to people <which is totally cool. people are allowed to spend their time doign what they wish, and nothings wrong with a good conversation> or something like that, you need money.


Ya, but as I'm sure you're already aware, everyone else had the same needs as you. You had no entitlement or realistic justification to excuse yourself from the terms of service you agreed to when you registered your account because the way the game was structured didn't suit your liking or your scheduled. Again, if playing a game within the rules is not to your liking and choosing to play it outside the rules can have a negative impact on other players, the appropriate choice would be to behave as a good sport would and move on to something else.

Quote:
the one thing i wish people would stop with is clumping the mindset and reasoning of every gilbuyer in the same catagory. everyones different and it isnt always a lack of patience, or laziness, or whatever.


If I add thoughtless and possibly even selfish to the general category, could I lump you into the category then? Nobody is going to reasonably challenge your intent because your restrictions are your restrictions and what constitutes enjoyable for you is up to you to decide. They can, however, challenge your behavior (along with everyone else who follows that behavior) based on the impact you had on the community by supporting RMT.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 6:43pm by AureliusSir
#100 Jun 09 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
8 posts
Quote:
Ya, but a better alternative to buying gil would have simply been to find a game that was more to your liking as opposed to contributing to a problem that made the FFXI experience such a frustrating disappointment for such an extended length of time.


This is not really viable, as some people enjoy FFXI/Series in general, this comes down to poor game design, which from what I have read over the press release, is what SE is trying to fix with XI, keep in mind MMO is fairly new to japan, when SE created this there was little around over there and all they could do is base things on FF and Western MMO.

Regardless, almost all MMO suffer from the same problems ie: overpriced so called rare/in demand items. The main difference that set XI apart from other MMO was the challenge level and the fact it more or less forced you to socialize with people you hated or did not want to, in order to eventually get rare/ex items or do quests, many other MMO you can solo till max level, and only party when you want to fight harder mobs, aside from a few jobs that is not practical in XI.
#101 Jun 09 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
YesIndeed wrote:
Quote:
Ya, but a better alternative to buying gil would have simply been to find a game that was more to your liking as opposed to contributing to a problem that made the FFXI experience such a frustrating disappointment for such an extended length of time.


This is not really viable, as some people enjoy FFXI/Series in general, this comes down to poor game design, which from what I have read over the press release, is what SE is trying to fix with XI, keep in mind MMO is fairly new to japan, when SE created this there was little around over there and all they could do is base things on FF and Western MMO.


No, I'm sorry, that doesn't fly. You can't blame game design for behavior that creates consequences for your fellow players. If the game design is so poor, find another game.

I'm not sure about your part of the world, but the economy in my part of the world is in fairly rough shape. If I go out and mug some old lady and blame it on the state of the economy, do you think a judge is going to buy it? Nope.
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