oh i did. me not agreeing with you has nothing to do with a lack of reading.
It has nothing to do with you can disagree with me. I'm perfectly fine with you disagreeing with me. The problem is that you brought up points I ALREADY addressed before you even posted them.
the problem still isnt with me not reading, because i have. im fully aware of the points you "addressed". i just dont believe you addressed them well enough, hence me bringing them up again, hopefully spuring you to reword your arguement better. it isnt always your opponents fault you know. i read the entire thread. and even then even if i was in the wrong, there are lots of points being made in the thread and lots of them being "addressed", that just seems ignorant of you to think everyone is going to remember every single one of them. of course that isnt the problem here, thats more for your future reference. the problem here was me not thinking you did a good enough job. after all if you had, well ide be on your side and not still on middle grounds wouldnt I.
your right, there isnt a difference. and i dont have a problem with either. i dont care if somebody buys the gil or hacks it or crafted for it "legitly" or however they got it. how they got it is their business, and if they enjoy the game more for it, then by all means. after spending X amount to buy the game, X amount per month as payment for the game, and X amount to buy their online currency, they are entitled to have fun with their game
It seem we have a more fundamental problem then. You're completely ok with someone hacking the game for gil? What about other types of hacks?
well for starters we have very different views on this part. hacking and buying, no matter what you say, ar enot the same. later on in your post you say its like making it out of thin air..thats just not true
hacking: it is coming out of thin air. you are creating more money
buying: they may be doing illegal things with it but the gilsellers DID get it legitly. they did not create money out of thin air, they farmed NM and crafted and stuff <but mostly camp NM> meaning that no extra money is created. you could simply say they did the work for you. while with hacking, no work was done at all
if you disagree then pelase be more clear on how they are the same because im not getting it. maybe im stupuid, maybe your bad at explaining things <i know i am>, or whatever. but i dont understand how you think they are the same. and like i said before, i DO want to see your side
and thats my point. WHY does it hurt YOUR gaming experience that im having fun in a different way than you. why do you get to dictate how i have fun. why is it that only your way of having fun is acceptable and anybody who has fun a different way takes fun away from you. thats just pathetic. your acting like some elementary school bully taking away everyone elses toys because they like their toys more than yours
This is why I said you haven't read teh thread, because I already answered this question.
Even in a purely PvE there is competition. That's why people get angry when someone ninjas an item from the or hacks their account, even though that person is an "ally." People are competing to get into parties, guilds, for DKP, or simply to have the best gear. I, and most of the players I know, would find it incredibly distasteful if a player were allowed to buy his way to max level and obtain all the rarest equipment. Not only does this player have a distinct advantage in any sort of content, but his money trivializes real players' effort. Most players feel a sense of accomplishment when they reach max level or obtain a rare piece of equipment. It was difficult, but they did it. RMT weakens or destroys that sense of accomplishment. There's no difference in game between RMT and cheating. Someone who buys a level 75 is exactly the same as someone who hacks his character to level 75.
so people who buy gil and gear and stuff arent real players? well now its down to personal definition, which is why i dotn think this is a valid argument, just like with your hacking being the same as buying thing. you see it as hacking, i dont. we must have different definitions of it because i see hacking as doing something the game doesnt allow you to do, not the people in charge of the game, but the game itsself will now allow you to do. buying gil, as i said, is essentiaally a trade from one player to another at its core. meaning its something the game DOES allow you to do. the money didnt magically appear, it was given to you by another person on the game. if it was hacked, then it magically appeared
now you say people who buy this stuff arent real players? well imo they are. what does it take to be a player? imo you logging on and spending time in the game doing "whatever" <whether it be just standign there, talkign to people, leveling, crafting, questing, whatev> makes you every bit a player as someone who spends every waking hour on the game fighting super bosses and collecting super rare items
but thats just what i think. and i also think alot of our disagreements are coming from differences in definition
The genre of game is called MMORPG. It's not a single player game. You don't exist in a vacuum. Most everything you do affects other players. Some actions are more direct and some are more indirect. For example a speed hacker can kill mobs faster than a normal player. It may seem like he's only affecting his character in a pve game, but he could clear up entire camps very quickly, leaving few mobs for other players to level up on, hindering their game experience.
well its a good thing we're not talking about speed hacking then. in that case your right, i totally see how SE shouldnt allow players to kill things super fast and clear entire camps leaving everyone else with nothing to do and hindering their exp gain
now on to what we're actually arguing about...
RMT can be a huge or tiny problem, depending on how it exists in the game.
your right and i do believe that is what this entire thread is about. there are ways to completely stop RMT. however i believe, in fact i would think most if not all would agree, that it would make the game quite restrictive. since its the most common thing <i woudl think so anyway> to buy online, lets once again use currency as an example. they could stop gil selling quite easily by making gil untradable...making legit trades impossible. lets say the economy in the game gets bad for reasons beyond RMT <in this RMTless world> it makes it impossible for newbies to recieve any sort of financial help from experienced players. they can offer advice sure, but you have to spend money to make money, and upping the gil you start with would likely just make things worse. so it restricted players from helping players <and it restricted them in other ways, this was just one example> and doing the harcore method of banning RMT all together would create similar and different problems
ide rather they use the virus as a vaccine to help cure the problem rather than quarantine us entirely and make, what imo would be, a worse game
take buying gil as an example. fundamentally all it is is a player trading gil to another player. but deals outside the game were made that caused the trade to happen. as far as the game is concerned, a simple trade was made and couldve been anything from a friendly gift, someone quitting and giving stuff away, an experienced player helping a noob, etc etc. so long as the game, not the developers, but the game itsself allows you to do it then no, i dont see it as being wrong
Two problems there.
1. Buying gil isn't the same as receiving gil as a gift because someone is you RL friend.
maybe i wasnt very clear <or maybe you werent reading properly :p (j/k, just poking fun) lol> when you buy gil, how does it work.
step one: you go online and choose your source
step two: you look at the prices and the gain and buy however much you want/need/can afford/whatever and buy it
step three: you log in to the game and await the delivery
step four: they contact you and SEND you the gil
there, that is how it works, as im sure you know to an extent <not accusing you of doing it, its just that most/all of its pretty obvious>. however the game will not register most of that. the game only registers one player sending gil to another player. the purpose of it being sent remains a mystery to the game itsself, a mystery it doesnt care about. i was using friendly gifts and the like as examples. because as far as the game itsself, an emotionless computer program, is concerned, it IS the same thing
You you buy/hack gil you are using a means outside the game to generate gil.
again my point was that regardless of how it happend, the game only registers that it did happen
A gift of gil still had to be earned within the means of the game system.
and it was. if it was outside the means of the system then it wouldve come out of nowhere, but "I" got the money from another player. that is within full means of the system
[quote=]In buy/hacking gil you are creating something in the game worldfrom nothing in the game world.
no im not. the money didnt magically appear like you seem to think it does. it came from another player and was traded to me within full means of the games functions. hence why buying and hacking are not the same thing. nothing was created unless the RMT people are TRUELY hacking. but i doubt thats the case considering all of them i remeber seeing camping various NM. why do that when they could have just hacked it?
[quote=Allegory]When you trade gil, even as a gift, you are simply reallocating something that was created in the game world from effort/items in the game world.[/quote]
the gil itsself is not in question. just the method of obtaining it. the gilsellers, as previously stated, ARE working legitly for the money, they just plan to do unlegit things with it. and what do they do with it. well take out the part about selling it they are just reallocating it
[quote=Allegory]It's the difference between creating energy from nothing and transferring energy between different forms.[/quote]
correct me if im wrong, i havent taken a science class since highschool, but i do beileve energy cant be created or destroyed, only transfered. i like the example but IIRC <and like i said, i might not> the example is physically impossible
even still, your still not creating anything, its still a transfer. the gil went from their hands to mine. it wasnt automatically in mine
[quote=Allegory]2. Gifts are impossible to regulate. Even if you ignore the first point completely, you can accept gil gifting as an irremovable evil. Just because you cannot stop something bad from happening, doens't mean you should begin to encourage it.[/quote]
exactly. its <RMT> impossible to truely stop without taking away something else that we simply SHOULD be able to do <trading between players> but if we cant stop it, the least that could be done is it be controlled. and it is possible to do so if they legalized it
who is doing the RMT anyway? my guess <and thats all it is, i really have no idea> is that they are at home "businesses" to make a little money. i doubt they could compete with SE if they legalized it
think of it like this. RMT is a small family owned store and SE is a super corperation store type of thing like walmart or something
RMT does pretty good business. but then SE comes to town. now SE doesnt want competition, so they decide to destroy their competition by using their money as an advantage
they have plenty of money and make money off of other stores they own so they can afford to make little-no profit off this store for a little while. so they sell stuff at a stupid low price. people stop going to RMT because RMT is much more expensive. with no customers, RMT goes out of business
its especially helpful that RMT people are already paying SE just to be involved with their game <kinda hard to trade gil and items and stuff to people without an account and a characer> so just to keep shop open they are paying "rent" so to speak. well you could see this as SE raising thei rent to a level where they just cant operate in that space anymore
thats the gist of it. doing it this way <or various other ways> at least keeps it under control. its better than keeping it illegal and either
a)having them run rampant doing what they please
b)taking away the ability to trade and other freedoms we should have in this and ANY game. especially mmo's
this took forever to write and i dont want to do this all day <i doubt you do either> so if this convinces you, respond with "i agree"
doesnt convince you respond <if you want> with one last post trying to make me see things your way. if i agree i'll post that i agree, if not..well im tired of this so i ust wont respond
in the end this thread isnt going to solve anythign except change the views of a few people, if even that. if you cant convince me with your next post <that may be none esistant, afterall you dont have to respond> then i say we just let bygons be bygons and agree to disagree. after all i doubt tis thread is going to effect SE at all. if they legalize it <which i highly doubt honestly> then they probably already have plans for that, and if they dont legalize it <the more likely route> then they have, again, likely already made up their minds on this matter. this whole thing isnt doing anything more than making enemies in game before the game even comes out. nd persoanlly ide prefer to start either neutral or with friends, not with pre-made enemies ^_^