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Subjobs in FFXIV? Your opinions.Follow

#1 Jun 02 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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In general, everyone agrees that the job system from FFXI (and a couple of other FFV) works great in an MMORPG and should return.
I definitely think so. It's nice to be able to try new jobs and play styles without creating a new character altogether.

But how do you guys feel about possible subjobs in FFXIV?
Personally, I do not approve.

I do love the place subjobs have in FFXI... we've created tons of different job/subjob combos for different situations and tactics.

...but would you really want it again, in a new MMORPG?

A lot of people who have started FFXI that I know have gotten really turned off by the subjobs.

For example, a friend of mine recently wanted to play BRD.
So, he's re-subscribed, he gets in the game, he's ready to start playing his songs and partying.

...but he can't. First, he has to go back and level his White Mage to 37.
...but to level his White Mage to 37, he has to level a subjob of a subjob; Black Mage to 18.

In the future, if he's serious about Bard, he'll have to level up his Ninja subjob to 37, as well... and before that, Warrior to 18.

It's all very tedious, and not very user-friendly... it's a huge turn-off for a lot of novice players.

I don't personally have a problem with levelling subjobs, and it certainly is fun using different combos... just the other day I managed to take my Samurai from 1-37 in two days.

But is that part of the job system really necessary?
Should there be subjobs in FFXIV? Why or why not?

Discuss.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2009 6:35pm by Poubelle
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#2 Jun 02 2009 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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in all seriousness we still have NO idea as to how the gameplay will function, i guess subjobs could work, but then again they did say this wouldn't be ffxi_v2.
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#3 Jun 02 2009 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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I pretty much agree that subjobs are useful, but overbearing.

To level up a job, you need to level a sub, and to level a sub you need to level a sub sub, and to level a sub sub, well you get the point.

I'd rather just have it that the sub is automatically set at half the main job's level, even if you haven't leveled the sub yet. If you switch it to your main it is back to its original level. Sounds pretty stupid but it can save a lot of headache when starting to level a different job.
#4 Jun 02 2009 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's fair to assume that some sort of job/changing system will be implemented, since it's going to be a Final Fantasy MMORPG.

There's plenty of jobs already in existence throughout games in the franchise, so to ignore them completely would be a bit of an outrage.

I'm asking specifically about subjobs and if you think you'd like the system to return in the next MMO.
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#5 Jun 02 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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as nice as the subjob system is, It'd be a lot nicer if they just made it so the jobs could compete with one another on that job's merits alone, rather than the merits of the subjob. (By merits, I mean good points, strengths, not that godforsaken merit point time sync we're all so in love with Smiley: inlove)
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#6 Jun 02 2009 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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I hope that they get rid of the subjob system entirely and focus a little more on main jobs and perfecting them instead. I like the job switching system, just not how the playerbase (note I qualify that with the PLAYERBASE, as the devs had a different vision for how it was to be used) has essentially forced some main jobs into roles that they were not intended for by making them sub certain things.

It would also get rid of the "can't raise the level cap ever because then x job would be completely broken with y sub" arguments and allow the developers a little more freedom to put in more challenging content as the game progresses.
#7 Jun 02 2009 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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the silly galka is right. come on SE deal the deathblow to the /nin mentality !!
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#8 Jun 02 2009 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I like the customization subjobs offer, but they also kind of locked FFXI job levels at 75 to preserve even the appearance of balance. So I guess you could say I'm torn. I'll be happy either way, and will have some reservations either way. ;P
#9 Jun 02 2009 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going back and forth... in some aspects subs are really nice, but I hate having to level something to level something else to level my main...

Someone on another thread mentioned like a job tree to one of my comments, I thought that was a cool idea... Gonna see if I can find it!
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#10 Jun 02 2009 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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I do hope SE does something new like a Grid or Tree system where you can somehow use mid tier (worth using) black magic yet melee with a Great sword or something like that which also couldn't be extremely broken or just plain stupid. Then again the job system is traditional and would be nice to see again but i hope they spice it up.
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#11 Jun 02 2009 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ha, found it!!


MDenham wrote:
YfandesofBismarck wrote:
Agreed... Please keep the job system where we can switch to whatever jobs we like and aren't stuck with just one job...
***** the job system. Replace it with one skill tree per job, and let us mix and match as desired.

PROS from SE's standpoint: even more timesink.
PROS from our standpoint: better customization of characters.

CONS: Eventually everyone has every tree finished, so everyone can do everything.


Interesting idea!
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#12 Jun 02 2009 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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With currently how FFXI jobs are designed, the subjob system is actually very important to game balance. If they are going to undo subjob system, then a lot of the jobs in this game will need to be redesigned.
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#13 Jun 02 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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I'd be happy with job switching but no sub-jobs
#14 Jun 02 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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scchan, Mercenary Major wrote:
With currently how FFXI jobs are designed, the subjob system is actually very important to game balance. If they are going to undo subjob system, then a lot of the jobs in this game will need to be redesigned.
yea, that's why I honestly think they should just forgo the thing entirely, rather than again leave jobs crippled without utsusemi.
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#15 Jun 02 2009 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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on a somewhat related note. make ninja a DD and do away with utsusemi!
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#16 Jun 02 2009 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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scchan, Mercenary Major wrote:

With currently how FFXI jobs are designed, the subjob system is actually very important to game balance. If they are going to undo subjob system, then a lot of the jobs in this game will need to be redesigned.


Would they really need to be redesigned, or would we as players just have to re-adjust our play styles? The way I see it, this would drastically change the party dynamics, but whether it would really be a bad thing or not, we will never know.

Warriors would go back to being top tank, Paladins and Ninjas would never party without a thief, Summoners would no longer be Main Heal Onry, parties would be *forced* to have more balance because you can't rely on /nin.. The list goes on and on.

Just because we are used to playing a certain way, doesn't mean we couldn't adjust to playing a different way if we had to.
#17 Jun 02 2009 at 3:04 PM Rating: Default
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@Amanada, just because the jobs will be returning (this IS a Final Fantasy game) doesn't mean they will work exactly like they do in FFXI.

And it would be a **** shame if they did.
Summoner needs to be reworked entirely, besides the fact that they summon creatures to fight, of course.
But that's just one example.

In my opinion, each job needs to have more of its own unique abilities/pros/cons so that people are able to create groups and support eachother without any subjobs like Ninja for Utsusemi, and so on.

It also just seems more traditional and realistic, like you actually fit into the Final Fantasy world if you're confined to the limits of your job while playing that job...

For example, why would a Black Mage be able to cast Ninjutsu?
Why would [insert any DD] be able to use dances to heal themselves?

Like I said, it makes for some interesting strategies and it's fun to come up with new ways to use our subjobs as new things get added to the game, but...

For an entirely new FF MMO, I don't think I'd like to see that part of the job system return.

All IMO.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2009 7:05pm by Poubelle
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#18 Jun 02 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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in all seriousness we still have NO idea as to how the gameplay will function, i guess subjobs could work, but then again they did say this wouldn't be ffxi_v2.


True, but I'd be very disappointed if FF's classic job system isn't utilized, it's the main reason I play XI rather than one of the more skill-tree oriented character building MMOs.

As far as subjobs go, it can be a bit daunting especially for new players, but I think the combining of abilities from other jobs you've leveled does go a long way in limiting cookie cutters (or at least giving more cookie cutter builds to choose from if that makes any sense). This doesn't have to be in the form of 'sub-jobs' per-say, maybe a system where you can simply set secondary abilities from other jobs (similar to FFV or Tactics) could be a refreshing change. A system like this, if it allowed you to set more than one secondary ability would limit cookie cutters even more as it could allow you to combine more than two jobs together creating a more tertiary sub-job type system (75/37/18). None the less I think to use an ability you should have to learn it first by leveling the appropriate job.
#19 Jun 02 2009 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's a little late to say this isn't going to be FFXI 2.0

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#20 Jun 02 2009 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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PopeyesOpenEye wrote:
True, but I'd be very disappointed if FF's classic job system isn't utilized
The tree system I'm thinking of has (sort of) precedent in the series - 7, 8, 10, and 12 all eventually let you have near-identical characters by making them learn everything (granted, to pull that off with every character in 7 was, uh, hard, and both 8 and 10 still had a small amount of the old "each character has a specific job" hiding there).
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#21 Jun 02 2009 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
Don't need subjobs, they create much too much blur between the jobs. You can add defensive capabilities or what have you usually to job mains anyways, and still differentiate them better than shadows or seigan.
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#22 Jun 02 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Default
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Maybe a bit off topic but SE should make spells learnable annd not salable. If they want to use abilities and magic as a money sink, have us pay a reasonable amount to a job specific NPC or somethin as in most MMOs.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2009 4:27pm by GuardianFaith
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#23 Jun 02 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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GuardianFaith wrote:

Maybe a bit off topic but SE should make spells learnable annd not salable. If they want to use abilities and magic as a money sink, have us pay a reasonable amount to a job specific NPC or somethin as in most MMOs.


This I agree with 100%. It totally sucks that certain jobs have money sinks in both equipment and spells, and other jobs just have to buy equipment. All spells should be learned at the appropriate level, instead of you having to track down an obscure scroll halfway across the universe that's going to several thousand bucks out of your wallet.
#24 Jun 02 2009 at 4:05 PM Rating: Default
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I wouldn't mind if they scrapped the Subjob idea entirely. If they do keep it though I hope it goes through an overhaul. I'd rather not live through another MMO filled with /nin
#25 Jun 02 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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They should scrap sub jobs and introduce a skill tree OR even better, the Materia system from FFVII.
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#26 Jun 02 2009 at 5:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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I love subjobs, at least in principle. But a better system might be jobs in the style of FF Tactics, where you can pick and choose different abilities and attributes from a few of the jobs you've leveled to complement your main.
#27 Jun 02 2009 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
I agree with the Tactics idea, I liked that system a lot and would love to see something more complex and customizable in a MMO

Might be a nightmare for balance though. When there's a lot of options, inevitably people figure out which ones are the best in niche job roles and start insulting anyone who thinks differently, so a lot of options becomes one option for role X whether it's damage, healing, tank, etc.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2009 6:26pm by digitalcraft
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#28 Jun 02 2009 at 6:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Might be a nightmare for balance though. When there's a lot of options, inevitably people figure out which ones are the best in niche job roles and start insulting anyone who thinks differently, so a lot of options becomes one option for role X whether it's damage, healing, tank, etc.

Yeah, that's exactly the curse of MMOs. Someday maybe a developer will find a way around it.
#29 Jun 02 2009 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Subjobs add uniqueness to the characters, the jobs themselves just need
to be balanced so that many jobs are viable when subbed. There needs to be more
abilities, and more for jobs to add to other jobs when subbed basically.
#30 Jun 02 2009 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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I think FFXIV should either implement a FFV/FFT-style system, wherein you have a "subjob" that isn't an actual subjob, or that it should just flat out NOT have subjobs at all, and you're only your main job.
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#31 Jun 02 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree. Subjobs work for the most part in XI but I wouldn't want it in XIV.

I want all the focus on the main job itself. I want for every job to be its own unique job. And balanced..*cough*

Edited, Jun 2nd 2009 11:10pm by CupDeNoodles
#32 Jun 02 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Well when your lvling you should receive 75% of exp to your main and 25% to your sub... anyways it make sense your playing as the subjob as well just less... so it would remove a big part of the pain... better, the main get 100% and the sub a percent based on the ability used coming from the subjob ( so less people do stupid combination). I also think many forget the use of subbing blm when just running around doing errand or mission *chat* and thing like that, so even if it add to the grinding it remove some in other places.

Only problem with subs is the balance (i.e cap @ 75 ).

Don't really mind if sub come or not, but I do enjoy being able to swicth job and I really wish this wont go away.


Edited, Jun 2nd 2009 11:22pm by MrBarjavel
#33 Jun 02 2009 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
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Subjobs for the most part are far too relied on to be good. It would be better if everything was stuck on the main job and balanced to perfection. Imagine how FFXI would be like without the subjob function... SE would have to buff every single job, SMN especially.
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#34 Jun 02 2009 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
I definitely want to keep jobs and be able to change on my same character. I love customization though, so I definitely want something like subjobs or tactics . . . skill tree maybe .. . but I never really liked that and it's not very FF.
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#35 Jun 02 2009 at 8:58 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm this is a toughy.

I'd maybe like to see "Specializations".

So maybe instead of having to switch to Subjob X. You could rather just bring up a screen and switch your specializations based upon what you have leveled.

So If you have lets say Ninja leveled to 75.
Then had DRK leveled to 30.

You could stick with NIN but then select aspects of DRK to "Specialize in" within certain slots etc. That would change your Job to "Dark Shinobi" and have abilities specific to that combination.

Promotes the same thing, ie. leveling as many jobs as possible to aid you in your PT role, but you can mix match what works best.

Makes it much more dynamic and allows you to experiment a bit more beyond just the abilities of a certain one class.

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#36 Jun 02 2009 at 8:58 PM Rating: Good
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I think FFXIV should either implement a FFV/FFT-style system, wherein you have a "subjob" that isn't an actual subjob, or that it should just flat out NOT have subjobs at all, and you're only your main job.

/signed Id love a system like that. The only complaint Id have with just having your main job is lack of customization all dragoons are essentially the same. And introducing wow like skill trees ...well makes it more like wow and less like ff. Id love to see a system like 5 where you can mix traits of jobs you've learned or a system like tens where you choose your path through the various skill trees (jobs)



Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 12:59am by mezlabor
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#37 Jun 02 2009 at 9:13 PM Rating: Default
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I really like the subjobs and I really hate the idea of a skill tree.

Man, I hate skill trees.

Someone mentioned something about taking aspects of every job you've leveled to specialize in. That would be pretty overpowering and is similar to just having multiple subjobs.

Subjobs allow for customization, but a very give and take kind of customization. Just main jobs would get boring and they'd have to offer a lot of main jobs to have this be a viable option. And what having a lot of main jobs would boil down to is just having regular jobs with subjobs, but not having to level the sub. Which would be alright I suppose. I enjoyed leveling subs, though. Going straight to 75 would be rather boring, I think. It was always interesting to hit a certain level, battling all these (at the time huge and difficult monsters) then have to go down to the Dunes and level the sub.
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#38 Jun 02 2009 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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Borkachev wrote:
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Might be a nightmare for balance though. When there's a lot of options, inevitably people figure out which ones are the best in niche job roles and start insulting anyone who thinks differently, so a lot of options becomes one option for role X whether it's damage, healing, tank, etc.

Yeah, that's exactly the curse of MMOs. Someday maybe a developer will find a way around it.


I was thinking about that before. One thought I had was making all abilities scaled somehow. For instance, an ability like Berserk the exact percentage would scale. The more people choose it; the weaker it gets. The less people choose it; the stronger it gets. Hopefully, you end up with a balanced set of abilities.

Back on the topic of sub jobs, I think the customization they provide to the main job is needed, but it could be done other ways like skill trees or some other means. I'm not sure being able to change jobs whenever you feel like it is the best system. I like that you can try another job without redoing tedious reputation and access quests, but I wonder if you could make a character that is "related" that gets access due to the reputation of the family name. It's cool that you can try different jobs easily, but you can't try different races easily.
#39 Jun 02 2009 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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Personally? I don't like the sub job system. At all honestly. I LOVE being able to change jobs, and think everyone should be able to level different jobs on one character, however I do not like sub jobs.

I think each job should be specialized in what it does, and unique in it's own ways. I don't like "adding other jobs" to your main job to do different things, and would like to see how something is played by strictly being what you are, and being unique at it. Now, I do think jobs should have versitility, don't get me wrong. You should be able to change some stuff up and do different things differently, but not through the use of sub jobs. I personally hope there isn't sub jobs, but MORE specialization to the job you are on.
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#40 Jun 02 2009 at 9:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay, ***** skill trees; let's just implement the Sphere Grid.
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#41 Jun 02 2009 at 10:28 PM Rating: Good
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Mentioned this already on my ls, but I don't want subjobs in this game. I love it for what it is in FF, it helps bring out more, depending on the combination, of your current job. But it is without a doubt THE thing that has upset the balance and progression of FFXI. Subjob system was the original reason we stopped upping the level caps, subjob system also made it so people were left out of certain things because they didn't have a certain something leveled that wasn't the job you wanted to play. There are so many things that complicate the game, and subjobs was the worst offender. As nice as they were in this game, they need to go.

Id rather, whatever route they take, make each job more individualized and less reliant on something like a subjob. It would also make SE more focused on the way the actual jobs function rather than what they could do under 'certain' subjob combinations. The only thing I wouldn't mind is a BLU magic or FFT/FFV style skill subjob setting, where you can add certain traits, mix and match between jobs you completed, but even than it has the same problems I outlined above just in a different way. Personally what id really like is customizable abilities or skills like the merit system right from the start and use that to personalize your class, and than just have each job with its own system. This way you can personalize the way you play without hurting progression and balancing issues later, or at least minimizing them.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 2:30am by croythegreat
#42 Jun 02 2009 at 11:13 PM Rating: Default
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samosamo wrote:
I'd be happy with job switching but no sub-jobs


Agree 100%, subjob limit the game in a lot of senses and we all know about the /sub /nin issue. Dont make the same misstake SE.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 3:13am by Maldavian

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 3:13am by Maldavian
#43 Jun 02 2009 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with you all. Subjobs have to go. I nearly quit two times when starting out because I refused to level monk for warrior. I just wanted dragoon. I didn't wanted anything else. I wanted to get RDM to 30 to have fun with it but DRG needed war sub. Then when I got to level 60 as DRG I needed to level sam sub to 37. When I wanted to solo I had to level my whm and in order to level my whm I had to level my blm. COmpletely has to go. I'm sure Square Enix can find a better solution.
#44 Jun 02 2009 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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I've been talking to several of my Japanese friends as well. Seems they don't want the sub job system either. It seems to be a pretty common agreement that we want job specialization, but we don't want the whole sub job mess. If we want to be a Paladin we want to be a Paladin, we don't want to have to level 10 jobs to 37 just to find out some obscure sub is needed for some event, and all the tedious leveling needed just to be complete on that one job. It confuses to much, and it also takes away from the uniqueness and personality of jobs in my opinion.

I would say it's a safe bet that they will most likely not add sub jobs.
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#45 Jun 03 2009 at 12:12 AM Rating: Default
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If japanese also feel the same way about the subjob. Then they must be the ones to convey the sentiment to Square Enix from our part. SE is a japanese company and will surely check in to ther BBS boards more than it will check american boards.

I want job specialization for the job I'm using. If I want to use another job its to play as the job not to mindlessly level it because its needed for my real job. Also leveling subjobs for subjobs also means you need gear. In the event that you need to cross the melee/warrior gap you would have to buy gear for your subjob.

As for a way of customization I think the best way would be a sort of Sphere grid for each job. Instead of getting a job trait or ability you get points to move in the sphere grid and you choose what job traits,etc. to unlock just like in FFX's sphere grid. I don't know about being able to access boards from other jobs but that is another situation. If it possible then it would have a level restriction and have half potency unless used by its true job.
#46 Jun 03 2009 at 12:34 AM Rating: Default
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Sub jobs not only detract from the main jobs intended purpose, but also imbalance main jobs to a degree that forces the developer to remove plausible game balance from main job classes.

Main jobs in this type of system are incomplete without the SJ counterpart, and let's face it, after FFXI, no one wants 49587394587 /NINs running around. I personally think sub jobs should be done away with.

My opinion of course is dependent on a few key issues:

Tanking Classes should be provided with adequate skills to maintain hat when well played above the curve of DD potential.

Mage classes should be limited to less powerful spells early on in fights, with the power of certain spells being unscaled as the fight goes on,

Melee classes should be introduced to time oriented/specific job abilities such as after certain moves are made by the player and/or after certain moves are made by the NPC, certain moves/abilities become active, and enable disabling moves or enabling moves to the player.

The latter strategy could of course be applied to Tank and Mage classes as well.

My 2 cents.
#47 Jun 03 2009 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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If your in a shell that still thinks "/nin onry" then its time to question your shells intelligence. The "/nin onry" mentality never happened in most good linkshells. Its about optimizing for what your doing, /nin just happened to be good at a certain time on multiple things oh noez. Learn to play the game please.
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#48 Jun 03 2009 at 1:45 AM Rating: Decent
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The job/sub job system is probably the best unique element of FFXI, compared to other MMOs.

They don't need to keep it, but if they replace it, they need something else that gives you the same high level of customization and flexibility.
#49 Jun 03 2009 at 6:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Subjobs is a good idea, that SE haven't managed to deliver in a balanced fashion in 8 years. I'd rather they stop using a broken system in XIV than see them reuse it in a half-assed way again.

No, instead I want a more tech-tree like system. You get to allocate "sub job" abilities, spells and stats to enhance your main job. Perhaps your BLM wants stoneskin, gravity and convert? Then invest in those.

It is much better to let people get the abilities they want, than to force people to try and sub something that only partially fit as a sub.
#50 Jun 03 2009 at 6:17 AM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
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20,804 posts
Subjobs aren't an effective system. Being required to level a job you may not actually want to play is silly. It also creates difficulties in balancing which abilities jobs receive at what time.

Customization is necessary, but there's no reason not to continue the recent idea of greater control afforded in FFX and FFXII. Of course the licenses and sphere grids had their own problems, especially with redundancy. So yes, some sort of talent system.
#51 Jun 03 2009 at 6:19 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
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4,209 posts
Unless SE balances jobs to perfection not having subjobs will shun jobs worse then some are in XI.

Would you take a RDM with no sub over a WHM with no sub as a healer? No, but if RDM subs WHM they can be a decent healer and enfeeble. Not as perfect as a WHM but still can get the job done in a large amount of situations.

So please SE. Do not remove subjobs.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 10:20am by Alrefie
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