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A Critique and a HopeFollow

#1 Jun 02 2009 at 10:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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(tl;dr version: make the game how you like, SE, just please demonstrate that you've learned from your successes and failures in FFXI).

There are a number of general categories where I think FFXI did very well; and unfortunately, I ultimately found there to be too many categories where FFXI just fell down and never got back up.

Don't reward me for failure...
...but don't pummel me with a spiked mallet for it, either. No single failure should mean that you're required to invest dozens of hours getting back to a point where you can try again. Sky triggers are an example. HNMs on 24+ hour spawns are an example. Materials for high end craftable gear that explodes in the crafter's hand is an example. If I'm waiting instead of playing, I'm going to start looking for a new MMO to invest my time in.

Give me something to occupy my time...
...but don't make progress so tedious to earn that it becomes a chore instead of something entertaining. I don't mind grinding. Sometimes mindless repetition is a great way to relax. I don't think any (MMO)RPG would be complete without an element of grind to it, but it should be manageable and even if the ultimate goal is far away, the intermediate benefits should be rewarding and satisfying. I remember skilling up alchemy to 100 and encountering huge stretches of the process where I was sinking enormous amounts of time into it for modest gains with nothing to show for it aside from...modest gains. As I approached higher levels, not only did the necessary materials become more rare/expensive, but the goods I was producing had no market. The marginal benefit of leveling a craft to higher levels was an increase in the likelihood of HQ results on lower level synths. Not ideal.

A little mystery is good...
...but making things pointlessly obscure/cryptic is tiresome after a (short) while. "Hey thar, Mr. Quest Giver dood! You want me to gather the herbs/monster droppings that will let you cure your dying daughter? I'm on it! Uhh...waddya mean you don't know where it is or what it's called? How do you know it even exists if you don't know anything about it? I have a better idea...how about I just help you dig your daughter's grave? Would that work for ya?" Which is a convenient segue for my next point..

I'll subject myself to an almost limitless amount of travel/challenge...
...if you make it worth my while. "Hey thar, Mr. Quest Giver dood! I found the magical goblin poo you needed to save your daughter! Whew...I had to travel to the other side of the world and went through three bags of ammunition, four chocobos, and had to take the airship twice to get there and back, but I got it done! Ohh...hey, look at that! 50 gil! Wow! You're so generous, Mr. Quest Giver dood! Excuse me a minute while I go dig your grave...I'll be back to help you get ready to go in it -.-" Which is another convenient segue...

It's great that you invested so much time into such an expansive and visually appealling virtual world...
...but I'm not interested in spending 45 minutes just getting to my group. Ironically, long chocobo rides were not all that bad. Extra long chocobo rides that left me concerned about being suddenly dumped unceremoniously on my *** next to an aggro IT mob were not so great, but those were few and far between. 12 minutes waiting for an airship got real old...I eventually reached a point where arriving at the airship dock just in time to see the airship leaving without me was enough to make me log off. I know that's not what SE intended, but that's how it ended up.

If FFXIV is successful, you're going to be once more inundated with whining, sniveling brats who will accuse you of doing something wrong just because they don't get it...
...and maybe I'm one of them, but something that the evolution of FFXI demonstrated to me is that your game will last longer and receive a more positive response if you keep the communication going. I don't care if you don't have a solution; just be open about the fact that you know there's a problem. If your players are screaming for a feature, let us know you've heard us and it's in the works. You'll still get whiny monkeys who think that new features and changes are made overnight, but those types are going to whine and cry no matter what you do. It's when you leave the reasonable folks in the dark for months before you release a cryptic blurb (if anything at all) and then go back into hiding, you miss out on a powerful opportunity. Community forums with active developer representatives help to keep your customers informed and feel like they're part of the solution. Tight lipped policies and relentless secrecy do the opposite.

And finally, two words: Sphere Grid.

kthxbai ;D

Edited, Jun 2nd 2009 11:15pm by AureliusSir
#2 Jun 02 2009 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius, you made me laugh uncontrollably.

Well, good points sir, I am with you 100%, except for the Sphere Grid, don't know if want... maybe for a merit-like system?
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#3 Jun 02 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Sphere Grid is indeed a very VERY wierd thought, Id like to see it done as a matter of fact! I agree with most of the things on here and I think a good solution to needing a RARE/EX piece of EQ from a 24 Hour mob that Spawns 20% as a King (ie King Behemoth > Behemoth) is to make a quest, to where even if the quest is hard and long (lol) you can get an item to Spawn that mob in which it only drops the EX items and not the money intensive items, also if you needed a King version, then after beating the original you get other Subsequent quests to lead you on your way to getting the said items. Kinda like getting the various awesome items at the end of CoP, ZM Missions and such!

Tell me what you think

Comios
#4 Jun 02 2009 at 10:55 PM Rating: Decent
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tailonginasura wrote:
Sphere Grid is indeed a very VERY wierd thought, Id like to see it done as a matter of fact! I agree with most of the things on here and I think a good solution to needing a RARE/EX piece of EQ from a 24 Hour mob that Spawns 20% as a King (ie King Behemoth > Behemoth) is to make a quest, to where even if the quest is hard and long (lol) you can get an item to Spawn that mob in which it only drops the EX items and not the money intensive items, also if you needed a King version, then after beating the original you get other Subsequent quests to lead you on your way to getting the said items. Kinda like getting the various awesome items at the end of CoP, ZM Missions and such!

Tell me what you think

Comios


FFXI had its own attunements, but looking back you were getting attuned for the wrong things or being forced to repeat processes that could have easily been implemented as attunements but were instead things that had to be repeated (and competed for) each time you wanted to do them.

Take Sky access for example...

The Zilart mission series was absolutely awesome, imo. A little protracted, but the story that went with it was great. It was worth it. Unfortunately, once the missions were done and you finally found yourself in Ru'Aun Gardens, you were just getting started in and endless loop of competition and thumb twiddling waiting for trigger NMs to spawn. An idea for how they could have made the entire process more user friendly would have been to make it so that once you had the trigger for a particular guardian it was a permanent item with a cooldown that would allow you (for example) to spawn that particular guardian and then you'd have to wait a certain amount of time (3 days...7 days...whatever) before you could use the trigger again. From there, whether SE made a similar item for Kirin (ie. permanent trigger item with a cooldown) or left you fighting each of the guardians before every Kirin battle, they would have still been making end-game at that stage of FFXI's evolution that much more appealing to a lot of people. I know that two of the "end-game" shells I was in went weeks sometimes without setting foot in Sky with an Alliance because not enough people felt like farming triggers for the umpteenth time.

As for the sphere grid bit...I think it would be neat. It would be like having full-time built-in limitless subjobs based only on how long you had been progressing your toon. Not saying it's the best idea ever...just thought it was neat ;D
#5 Jun 02 2009 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes I understand the camping, but if you had a cool down that would pose problems with the fact that when you go up you could fight them, 18x assuming you all had the items...Now that would take the point of progression and Shells out of it, because you have a shell for Sky/Sea, but when you can just fight Byakko 18x a week then thats really dull, also if it had a global cooldown, meaning All alliance members lost the Cooldown as well, it wouldent help because if you had lets say, 20 ppl, you fight the said god with 16, switch out one player, and you still get 5 runs. Also going with a global cooldown, if you could only fight each god once every 3 days, that might be hard for some people, because that ONE night a week that you have time to do sky and thats the night your linkshell is prepared to do it then, spending an hour getting ready for one battle and like 5 items and having to wait another week would just bite hard *******. Yes pop farming sucks but, it adds the point of not letting more than a certain amount of those god items out at any given time.

Thoughts?!
#6 Jun 02 2009 at 11:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I am with you 100% of the way. I agree with every point you mention. Sphere Grid seems like a nice twist too or the License Plate from FFXII.
#7 Jun 02 2009 at 11:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Make it so you can actually do a quest without having to go on the 'net and look for a walkthrough.
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#8 Jun 02 2009 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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I think they should take a few pages from wows book when it comes to questing. Id like to see the quests in an area tied to the mobs and history and story of that area.

Id also like to see instanced dungeons like in wow that require group play to succeed.
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#9 Jun 02 2009 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
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tailonginasura wrote:
Yes I understand the camping, but if you had a cool down that would pose problems with the fact that when you go up you could fight them, 18x assuming you all had the items...Now that would take the point of progression and Shells out of it, because you have a shell for Sky/Sea, but when you can just fight Byakko 18x a week then thats really dull, also if it had a global cooldown, meaning All alliance members lost the Cooldown as well, it wouldent help because if you had lets say, 20 ppl, you fight the said god with 16, switch out one player, and you still get 5 runs. Also going with a global cooldown, if you could only fight each god once every 3 days, that might be hard for some people, because that ONE night a week that you have time to do sky and thats the night your linkshell is prepared to do it then, spending an hour getting ready for one battle and like 5 items and having to wait another week would just bite hard @#%^. Yes pop farming sucks but, it adds the point of not letting more than a certain amount of those god items out at any given time.

Thoughts?!


The idea of access based on a cooldown isn't perfect, and doesn't fit at all with SE's design philosophies for FFXI. SE wanted end-game content to be highly restricted. They wanted the rewards for the successfully clearing the content to be rare and thus maintain the "status" bestowed upon someone bounding around town in god, relic, etc. gear.

What they didn't take into account is that even casual players like to see new things from time to time, and even casual players are eventually going to reach the level cap. Excluding them from end-game because they haven't got 6 hours at a stretch to farm triggers and they're in an LS where an invite to the Alliance that is going to fight guardians/Kirin that night is based on who showed up to farm triggers and it becomes an issue.

Consider it from another angle:

Let's say that Zilart has just been released and the guardian triggers are permanent items on cooldowns that are obtained by combining the triggers from the pop NMs. How long do you think it might take to farm triggers for each person so that you had a full Alliance squared away? Then consider the drop rates on the gear from the guardians. I'd say 2-3 months farming sky after everyone had the trigger would be a safe minimum number before your entire shell had milked sky for everything they could possibly want.

Content can't be tuned around the most hardcore of players, however, so if you're in a shell where you spend one night/week farming triggers for four hours, you're looking at 1-2 triggers/week; 4 triggers for a complete guardian set = 2-4 weeks for one player to have all triggers. 9-18 months for an entire 18-member alliance. By the time everyone in your shell is sporting the permanent triggers, you're already into the next expansion and old content should be easily farmable by the shells that have already milked it so they can gear new members for new content quickly. That's the kind of thing that keeps people moving forward. It's easier to get people out to help gear new LS members if they just have to show up for a boss fight instead of hours of thumb twiddling while people check pop locations or spam widescan.
#10 Jun 02 2009 at 11:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah I could agree with this, there are alot of good points you have. A few things i still wanted to touch on, The whole Sky farming crap was old and tedious but to tell you the truth, if your on a point based system Shell then you have to go farming, to get the points, to get the item. I never liked waiting on Pops, but i did like fighting for a pop with other groups, it made it much harder, and a little PVP'ish in an Objective sort of way. I didnt dislike farming nor did I like it, but I saw it as a chance to learn more about the area, to help my teammates, and to get new items. When I got the items I wanted, yes I farmed less and less, but thats where the new members come in and earn there keep by going and farming and such, of course you need veterans loyal to the shell but its a basis. Spawn timers would be a good way to go but if they did implement it I would like to see them VERY hard to obtain, although then that brings the whole question up on people selling Cooldowns after your Shell has everything, making it hard for a fraction of the people and then whoring said CD's out to the rest of the population. Again all just examples but frequently seen even as of now
#11 Jun 02 2009 at 11:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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mezlabor wrote:
I think they should take a few pages from wows book when it comes to questing. Id like to see the quests in an area tied to the mobs and history and story of that area.

Id also like to see instanced dungeons like in wow that require group play to succeed.


Instanced content should be a no-brainer for FFXIV. There's just no real reason not to implement it. ToAU gave us our first real taste of single party instanced content in FFXI and it was awesome. Take that same concept, spread it out across all level ranges, make it diverse and appealing, weave it in with quests/missions, and continue to reward players for taking part and SE wins. The players win. Win + win = good.

One thing that I did not like about Assault, however, were the drops in the instances. The whole random drop that might be something awesome but most likely will end up being a piece of crap was just...ya, didn't like it. Don't tease me. I don't need to go into an instance being guaranteed to get uber gear every time, but give me a pretty decent chance of walking out with something that is going to make leveling up that much easier. If it's end-game instanced content, there's absolutely no reason why you should go through the trouble to form a large group to go in and earn tokens or points that can eventually be used to purchase the next upgrade...if you repeat the content every week for the next year. Keep...the progress...progressing. Make the uber items a big grind to get if you want. Make the one-step-from-uber items a modest grind. Make the "ohhh shiny!" items common enough that you don't have to spend 18 months trying to get it.
#12 Jun 03 2009 at 12:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Thats not a hint at the Currency EQ is it lol.......18 months later, "I got Excaliber!!!! Its like Shiny and stuff, plus totally worth that year and a half of constant Dynamis twice a week......totally.....
#13 Jun 03 2009 at 12:16 AM Rating: Good
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Less Systems To ***** People Over.

Systems like Dynamis, and Limbus, where you can work a very long time, very hard, and end up getting screwed out of something very easily, or not ever getting it for some reason or another. This is all too common in FFXI, and I don't want to see it in FFXIV. To much was left up to player discretion, and it is too easy to manipulate people. I do not want to see elitist end game guilds/linkshells/etc who monopolize things, and bully others. I am so bloody sick of that in FFXI, and hope SE learns from that.

Less Waiting For Nothing.

Waiting hours and hours, for a CHANCE at a claim, for a CHANCE to kill something, for a CHANCE at a drop, all of which are generally low, and some times multiple people wanting one thing. Less standing around, waiting for things to happen, and more options on things to do while you wait for other things. More flexibility.

Less Systems About Luck, More Systems about Reward for Hard work And Effort.

I have seen people, go on their first Dynamis-Xarcabard/Beaucedine/CoPzone, and come out with AF2, then leave the shell right after they joined for the dumbest reasons, it happens all the time. Then I see people, who works for months, and months, and YEARS, for a specific drop, and end up never getting it. Less of killing a monster 50 times for the drop, only to watch some one walk up one time, outclaim you, and get it... That is not the kind of thing we need in FFXIV.

Less Repetition, more Adventure.

I do not see the need, to kill 1 singular type of exp monster, over and over and over again, 5 hours a day, for upwards of a year, just to be complete at all my jobs. There is nothing fun about that. I don't care if it takes awhile or is fairly hard, but make it exciting, and take a bit less time for goodness sake. Give people more options as well, give people many options on where to adventure/camp/etc. In FFXI there are only "certain" camps used for EXP at all levels, and so many unused mobs. Make sure all mobs, with one setup or another, can yield close to the same amount of experience points, if you are near the correct level, with the right setup. And if you DON'T have the right setup, make sure whatever your setup/jobs are, that there is a special mob out there you will be good at, and that you will have some variety as well.

Less Systems like Relic Weapons/Mythic Weapons

Some things simply require to much time for them to be enjoyable, and cause people to either have to manipulate others, cheat, or sacrifice to much of their real lives. I don't care if something is 5% less rare, if 100% of the population is a lot happier and having a lot more fun.


These are the main flaws in FFXI that I don't want to see repeated. Everything else in FFXI seems fine, I'm just sick of drama/elitism/manipulation/bullying/repetition. Take those out of FFXI or any future Square Enix MMO and it will be just fine.



Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 1:17am by EndlessJourney
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#14 Jun 03 2009 at 12:16 AM Rating: Good
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tailonginasura wrote:
Yeah I could agree with this, there are alot of good points you have. A few things i still wanted to touch on, The whole Sky farming crap was old and tedious but to tell you the truth, if your on a point based system Shell then you have to go farming, to get the points, to get the item.


Whether you're earning points for twiddling your thumbs waiting for NMs to pop or for helping to kill guardians, there's still lots of room to reward the contribution of each player. I think the main issue is that there was entirely too much waiting involved with FFXI and then when you were done waiting (ie. the NM popped), another shell could beat you to the claim and all that waiting was for not.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I feel it's fundamentally backwards to reward people for twiddling thumbs. I'm not playing a game at that point...I'm...twiddling thumbs. I don't need to pay someone every month for an opportunity to do nothing. I pay to play. When the game mechanics hold me in one area doing nothing but wait for hours, it's just bad game design. Terribad game design. "How do I cancel my subscription?" game design.
#15 Jun 03 2009 at 12:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah I can agree with that, maybe having multiple ways of obtaining those said items might help
#16 Jun 03 2009 at 12:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Brilliant remark Aurelius. I suddenly feel like we've been paying to wait instead of paying to play. I agree with all points mentioned so far in this board. Now if SE can listen.
#17 Jun 03 2009 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Wait for it, Wait for it.......................Nah just ******** with you, listening is for losers lol
#18 Jun 03 2009 at 12:44 AM Rating: Decent
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EndlessJourney wrote:
Less Systems To ***** People Over.

Systems like Dynamis, and Limbus, where you can work a very long time, very hard, and end up getting screwed out of something very easily, or not ever getting it for some reason or another. This is all too common in FFXI, and I don't want to see it in FFXIV. To much was left up to player discretion, and it is too easy to manipulate people. I do not want to see elitist end game guilds/linkshells/etc who monopolize things, and bully others. I am so bloody sick of that in FFXI, and hope SE learns from that.


I think the tragedy was that Dynamis could have been so, so much better and more appealing if SE had given more thought to how they'd implement it. The fact that it was instanced was a huge step in the right direction. The fact that it was challenging was great. End-game content is supposed to be challenging, but where SE really dropped the ball was the reward for participating. It took way, way too long to earn the rewards. Not only that, but SE forced themselves into the position where they could never really offer anything better because rendering those rewards obsolete with the next tier of gear progression would have ****** off too many people.

Quote:
Waiting hours and hours, for a CHANCE at a claim, for a CHANCE to kill something, for a CHANCE at a drop, all of which are generally low, and some times multiple people wanting one thing. Less standing around, waiting for things to happen, and more options on things to do while you wait for other things. More flexibility.


Agreed, and instanced content solves that problem 100%. You can still have world spawn NMs but if the bulk of the good gear and exciting bosses are in instances, it means that everyone who has the gear and the time can experience the content.

Quote:
I have seen people, go on their first Dynamis-Xarcabard/Beaucedine/CoPzone, and come out with AF2, then leave the shell right after they joined for the dumbest reasons, it happens all the time. Then I see people, who works for months, and months, and YEARS, for a specific drop, and end up never getting it. Less of killing a monster 50 times for the drop, only to watch some one walk up one time, outclaim you, and get it... That is not the kind of thing we need in FFXIV.


Personally, I don't mind seeing the piece of gear that would be an upgrade for me go to someone else. I don't mind repeating content so that everyone in a large group can get what they want out of it. Again, where FFXI fell down is the pacing of rewards. If you've got 18 hungry people in front of you and you only hand out three scraps of bread/day, sooner or later hunger is going to get the best of the crowd and they're going to turn on one another. Nothing destroys a community faster than sparse rewards for enormous effort.

Quote:
I do not see the need, to kill 1 singular type of exp monster, over and over and over again, 5 hours a day, for upwards of a year, just to be complete at all my jobs. There is nothing fun about that. I don't care if it takes awhile or is fairly hard, but make it exciting, and take a bit less time for goodness sake. Give people more options as well, give people many options on where to adventure/camp/etc. In FFXI there are only "certain" camps used for EXP at all levels, and so many unused mobs. Make sure all mobs, with one setup or another, can yield close to the same amount of experience points, if you are near the correct level, with the right setup. And if you DON'T have the right setup, make sure whatever your setup/jobs are, that there is a special mob out there you will be good at, and that you will have some variety as well.


In my experience, a lot of the limitations on xp camps was based on player restrictions. It was never a good idea to pick an "abnormal" xp camp for a PUG because chances are you'd end up waiting forever for everyone to get there, usually involving multiple deaths and rising frustrations at having to repeat directions on how to get there a dozen times. Then, as you alluded to, you'd find that the selection of mobs was often less than ideal.

Personally, I'd like FFXIV to follow the trend set by so many other current MMOs; leveling solo to the cap should be not only an option, but one that is fun, diverse, and gives individual players the freedom to go where they want to do and fight what they want to fight based on their level, their job, and their skill as a player. Grouping should also be a viable option for xp, but if we're talking about removing needless time sinks, the whole, "I need a group if I want truly good xp" has to go.

Quote:
Less Systems like Relic Weapons/Mythic Weapons

Some things simply require to much time for them to be enjoyable, and cause people to either have to manipulate others, cheat, or sacrifice to much of their real lives. I don't care if something is 5% less rare, if 100% of the population is a lot happier and having a lot more fun.


I think that diversity is key to that. FFXI was horribly limited for gear. For any particular job/level, there was always one best-in-slot piece of gear for a particular situation, and it was typically very difficult to get on your own (ie. NM camping or farming hard to get crafting materials) which kept it out of reach for most players. Because the level grind was so tedious, selective elitism became the norm ("gimp" anyone?) Everyone wanted peak performance for peak xp/hour and if your gear didn't allow for that, a lot of players would pass you over. Instead of making a limited selection of best-in-slot gear surrounded by a mountain of crap, make a wide variety of suitable gear so that players have viable options to achieve a reasonable level of performance and a lot of that elitism would go away.

#19 Jun 03 2009 at 1:19 AM Rating: Decent
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The elements that I demand to carry over from FFXI are:

1) The job system. I know Square will probably want to do something completely different this time to keep things fresh, but honestly, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The Job System is the best (IMO, by far) class system for any MMO. Even free form skill based systems just don't have the depth and variety of the job system. Most importantly, the Job system allows you to stick with one character while playing many different roles, and not having to duplicate tasks like raising reputations, learning travel routes, and so on. In FFXI (like any class based game) you will sometimes think "aww, I should have leveled job X instead!" but you are free to go down that path at any time without throwing away anything that you have already accomplished.

2) The sense of permanence. Gear matters in FFXI, and there is some VERY good gear that can be obtained at low/mid level and see use well into a character's upper level and even raiding career. The fact that most gear can be dropped/sold later, and the fact that most gear can be useful for multiple jobs just adds to the feeling that earning gear in FFXI really matters. Compare again to a game like WoW, where epic gear gained by slaying gods and demons will in short order be replaced by a fresh coat of paint (er, gear) and in many cases will be replaced by randomly dropped or throwaway quest reward gear makes gear feel somewhat pointless. FFXI has it right, not rushing to instantly provide an upgrade to every piece of gear every time a new patch rolls around. Almost everything in FFXI feels hard earned and worth the effort, because there isn't just a slightly better version waiting to be obtained with minimal effort.

3) The quirkiness. Let's face it, there are some really weird things in FFXI. Moogles and Mog houses. Cactaur and Tonberries. Taru Taru /panic. There are a lot of small things that make FFXI feel like "home" because of the distinctive style. FFXIV has to have the same sense of wonder and weirdness.

Things that need to go away:

1) XP loss for dying. I know this is one of the things that makes FFXI "hardcore" but there are many ways to punish failure that don't involve this kind of tedium.

2) "Open air" boss mobs. Holding mobs for ransom via prior claim, zerging content to beat it in unintended ways, and any number of equally poor consequences arise when important game elements are able to be exclusively controlled or else accessed by any and all players at the same time. Instancing and limited the number of players within an instance simply makes it possible to get better balance and more interesting encounters, and curb much of the negative effects of anonymous internet douchebaggery.

3) Lame S-E customer service and account management. Every one in the industry does it better than S-E. There's no excuse for S-E to act like they'e the priory of scion, trying desperately to make everything obscure and difficult. If you've ever tried to recover account information after quitting, having your account hacked, etc, or read the many accounts of people who have, and if you can compare that to a company like Blizzard, it almost seems like S-E isn't even from the same galaxy. If they want to step up the next level of success, this is the area where they need to grow. A LOT.


Overall, I am very excited to see what FFXIV is, and to play it with my friends. I really want to see S-E take things to the next level of awesome without losing the things that make FFXI better in many ways than any of the competition.

Your thoughts?
#20 Jun 03 2009 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
The elements that I demand to carry over from FFXI are:

1) The job system. I know Square will probably want to do something completely different this time to keep things fresh, but honestly, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The Job System is the best (IMO, by far) class system for any MMO. Even free form skill based systems just don't have the depth and variety of the job system. Most importantly, the Job system allows you to stick with one character while playing many different roles, and not having to duplicate tasks like raising reputations, learning travel routes, and so on. In FFXI (like any class based game) you will sometimes think "aww, I should have leveled job X instead!" but you are free to go down that path at any time without throwing away anything that you have already accomplished.


I think there would be ways to allow for the breadth of diversity on a single character currently allowed by the job system in FFXI without duplicating that system. I found the job/subjob system to be rather dull after a while.

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2) The sense of permanence. Gear matters in FFXI, and there is some VERY good gear that can be obtained at low/mid level and see use well into a character's upper level and even raiding career. The fact that most gear can be dropped/sold later, and the fact that most gear can be useful for multiple jobs just adds to the feeling that earning gear in FFXI really matters. Compare again to a game like WoW, where epic gear gained by slaying gods and demons will in short order be replaced by a fresh coat of paint (er, gear) and in many cases will be replaced by randomly dropped or throwaway quest reward gear makes gear feel somewhat pointless. FFXI has it right, not rushing to instantly provide an upgrade to every piece of gear every time a new patch rolls around. Almost everything in FFXI feels hard earned and worth the effort, because there isn't just a slightly better version waiting to be obtained with minimal effort.


I have to disagree with this. To me, the game should be about the content, not the gear. In FFXI, top level gear means you've repeated the content more times than a sane person would care to count, either by farming a particular end-game zone, farming for gold, gathering hard and/or risky to acquire materials, currency, or whatever. There's nothing wrong with repeating content, but there's an obscure line somewhere between farming content for the sake of getting yourself and/or the "team" geared and boring tedium. IMO, FFXI is too far on the side of boring tedium. For me, gear is a means to an end. If you put too much focus on the gear, you give rise to all manner of loot whoring and drama. I don't think any MMO will ever be free of those things, but a good MMO design will mitigate the options for them to materialize.

Compare that to a game like WoW where yes, top level raid gear can still represent a certain amount of status if there aren't too many guilds clearing the content yet, but it's still a means to an end. You get the gear so that you are better prepared for the next tier of content. That next tier of content is released and your current gear gets your foot in the door to start progressing through it, and along the way you upgrade your gear again which makes that tier of content a bit easier and prepares you for the next tier of content. Eventually an expansion comes out and you start leveling again which is just another form of progression.

I've never really understood the people (in FFXI or WoW) who complain that the newest addition to the game has rendered their current gear obsolete. I don't log in to stare at my toon. I don't log in to stare at my stats. I log in to play the game, and new content is rarely (if ever) bad. New is fresh. New is exciting. New is the antithesis of repetition.

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1) XP loss for dying. I know this is one of the things that makes FFXI "hardcore" but there are many ways to punish failure that don't involve this kind of tedium.


Agreed 100%. If at any point between now and the time FFXIV hits store shelves it is announced that SE is continuing the concept of XP loss for death, I won't be buying it. Period. It's one thing to spend an evening wiping on content for any reason. It's another thing when wiping on content one evening means the next evening (or two, or three) is spent grinding xp just to get back to the point you were at before the initial wipefest. XP loss is a terrible penalty and is entirely needless. De-leveling is even worse.

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2) "Open air" boss mobs. Holding mobs for ransom via prior claim, zerging content to beat it in unintended ways, and any number of equally poor consequences arise when important game elements are able to be exclusively controlled or else accessed by any and all players at the same time. Instancing and limited the number of players within an instance simply makes it possible to get better balance and more interesting encounters, and curb much of the negative effects of anonymous internet douchebaggery.


Also agreed, although I'm not opposed to the idea of having some world-spawn nasties to kill with groups for the sake of diversity and flavor. I do believe, however, that the vast majority of "boss" encounters should be instanced.

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3) Lame S-E customer service and account management. Every one in the industry does it better than S-E. There's no excuse for S-E to act like they'e the priory of scion, trying desperately to make everything obscure and difficult. If you've ever tried to recover account information after quitting, having your account hacked, etc, or read the many accounts of people who have, and if you can compare that to a company like Blizzard, it almost seems like S-E isn't even from the same galaxy. If they want to step up the next level of success, this is the area where they need to grow. A LOT.


Also agreed. This is going to sound absolutely horrible, but as far as I'm concerned if SE is going to continue to run their customer service based on what is acceptable/normal in Japan, they can restrict the release to Japan. If they want to release a game on the global market, my hope is that they'll meet global standards for customer service, accountability, communication, and transparency.
#21 Jun 03 2009 at 2:03 AM Rating: Good
Honestly gear in WoW is so meaningless. It's just gear drop X from current content with random stat mix Y that gives you DPS/Healing/Tanking increase Z. I couldn't tell you the name of half the gear my paladin is currently wearing.

In FFXI gear meant something. I could probably *still* tell you all the gear my samurai had, from his Haubergeon to his Shura hadate. Also stats meant something, it wasn't +167 accuracy etc, each point meant something.
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#22 Jun 03 2009 at 2:08 AM Rating: Decent
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I've never really understood the people (in FFXI or WoW) who complain that the newest addition to the game has rendered their current gear obsolete. I don't log in to stare at my toon. I don't log in to stare at my stats. I log in to play the game, and new content is rarely (if ever) bad. New is fresh. New is exciting. New is the antithesis of repetition.


Gonna disagree 100%.

There's a big sense of accomplishment when you obtain powerful, rare pieces of gear. Attaining some of the most powerful gear in the game, and having some of the best possible pieces of equipment for your job in said games carries a real sense of accomplishment. You can really feel as if you've "beaten" the game if there's nothing left for you to pursue, and gear is the last thing you're going to be after.

Spitting out better pieces of gear every week does the exact opposite. People don't know what their gear is in WoW, or where it comes from. All they know is it came out in X expansion, because that's where all the current gear comes from. They do a raid exactly like every other raid in order to get new gear, and as soon as they actually get it there's better gear available. It's like the horse and the carrot, you're just being strung along with no end in sight, no feeling of accomplishment.
#23 Jun 03 2009 at 2:18 AM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Honestly gear in WoW is so meaningless. It's just gear drop X from current content with random stat mix Y that gives you DPS/Healing/Tanking increase Z. I couldn't tell you the name of half the gear my paladin is currently wearing.

In FFXI gear meant something. I could probably *still* tell you all the gear my samurai had, from his Haubergeon to his Shura hadate. Also stats meant something, it wasn't +167 accuracy etc, each point meant something.


I wouldn't say gear in WoW is "meaningless". I think you know that stats in WoW mean something as well. In fact, the role of the various stats is far more clearly defined in WoW. I know that a lot of people play for the gear. The gear is the goal. That's fine if that's what makes them happy, but for a lot of people gear is just a means to an end. It seems to me a rather pointless endeavor to spend countless hours playing a game just to alter your toon's outfit and put up bigger numbers on the same end-game content you've been running for years to get the gear that changed your appearance. It's a bunch of circular mumbo-jumbo that stinks of boredom. I'll take new gear, new content, and new challenges that leave me feeling like I'm moving forward over the same content for new gear to reduce the challenge of the same content any day.
#24 Jun 03 2009 at 2:44 AM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
TanthalassPhoenix wrote:

Gonna disagree 100%.

There's a big sense of accomplishment when you obtain powerful, rare pieces of gear. Attaining some of the most powerful gear in the game, and having some of the best possible pieces of equipment for your job in said games carries a real sense of accomplishment. You can really feel as if you've "beaten" the game if there's nothing left for you to pursue, and gear is the last thing you're going to be after.


Accomplishment, or relief? If you've already done something once, repeating it is not an accomplishment...it's repetition. Accomplishing something generally implies that you've succeeded at it for the first time. The first time you upgrade your first piece of gear, you've "accomplished" the process of upgrading your gear. Doesn't matter if it's a Xiphos or Excalibur...the process of equipping it is the same. The first time you down Kirin or a land king is an accomplishment. Anything after that is repetition which is only entertaining for so long. Gear progression in FFXI was an utter failure...and one that no other MMO has duplicated, and for good reason. Repetition != accomplishment. Progression = accomplishment, and when pretty much an entire expansion (ie. CoP) revolves around hitting the AH or sorting through your mules to find gear you thought you had outgrown 45 levels ago, there's something wrong.

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Spitting out better pieces of gear every week does the exact opposite.


I'd prefer if we could avoid gross exaggeration. Content patches in WoW come out usually every 4-6 months. Major expansions every 12-18 months. Again, I'll take fresh and new over repetition any day.

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People don't know what their gear is in WoW, or where it comes from.


I know what my gear is, and I know where it came from. I can look through all of my gear and tell you what boss it dropped from.

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They do a raid exactly like every other raid in order to get new gear, and as soon as they actually get it there's better gear available. It's like the horse and the carrot, you're just being strung along with no end in sight, no feeling of accomplishment.


Entirely untrue. With the most recent expansion, Blizzard moved and retuned one raid dungeon because it fit with the lore. That's the one and only time Blizzard has repeated a raid dungeon. The previous expansion had a total of 7 raid dungeons comprised of over 40 unique boss encounters. When better gear becomes available, it typically comes from the next tier of raid content. You gear up in one raid so that you're able to succeed in the next. Again, it's about progression and moving from one thing to the next as opposed to grinding the same thing ad infinitum for...a piece of gear. I play for the process, not the reward. The reward is the icing on the cake, but if the cake tastes like **** it's just icing on ****.
#25 Jun 03 2009 at 2:58 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
TanthalassPhoenix wrote:

Gonna disagree 100%.

There's a big sense of accomplishment when you obtain powerful, rare pieces of gear. Attaining some of the most powerful gear in the game, and having some of the best possible pieces of equipment for your job in said games carries a real sense of accomplishment. You can really feel as if you've "beaten" the game if there's nothing left for you to pursue, and gear is the last thing you're going to be after.


Accomplishment, or relief? If you've already done something once, repeating it is not an accomplishment...it's repetition. Accomplishing something generally implies that you've succeeded at it for the first time. The first time you upgrade your first piece of gear, you've "accomplished" the process of upgrading your gear. Doesn't matter if it's a Xiphos or Excalibur...the process of equipping it is the same. The first time you down Kirin or a land king is an accomplishment. Anything after that is repetition which is only entertaining for so long. Gear progression in FFXI was an utter failure...and one that no other MMO has duplicated, and for good reason. Repetition != accomplishment. Progression = accomplishment, and when pretty much an entire expansion (ie. CoP) revolves around hitting the AH or sorting through your mules to find gear you thought you had outgrown 45 levels ago, there's something wrong.

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Spitting out better pieces of gear every week does the exact opposite.


I'd prefer if we could avoid gross exaggeration. Content patches in WoW come out usually every 4-6 months. Major expansions every 12-18 months. Again, I'll take fresh and new over repetition any day.

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People don't know what their gear is in WoW, or where it comes from.


I know what my gear is, and I know where it came from. I can look through all of my gear and tell you what boss it dropped from.

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They do a raid exactly like every other raid in order to get new gear, and as soon as they actually get it there's better gear available. It's like the horse and the carrot, you're just being strung along with no end in sight, no feeling of accomplishment.


Entirely untrue. With the most recent expansion, Blizzard moved and retuned one raid dungeon because it fit with the lore. That's the one and only time Blizzard has repeated a raid dungeon. The previous expansion had a total of 7 raid dungeons comprised of over 40 unique boss encounters. When better gear becomes available, it typically comes from the next tier of raid content. You gear up in one raid so that you're able to succeed in the next. Again, it's about progression and moving from one thing to the next as opposed to grinding the same thing ad infinitum for...a piece of gear. I play for the process, not the reward. The reward is the icing on the cake, but if the cake tastes like sh*t it's just icing on sh*t.


Dont make FF14 into a copycat of WoW. Next !
#26 Jun 03 2009 at 3:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Accomplishment, or relief? If you've already done something once, repeating it is not an accomplishment...it's repetition. Accomplishing something generally implies that you've succeeded at it for the first time. The first time you upgrade your first piece of gear, you've "accomplished" the process of upgrading your gear. Doesn't matter if it's a Xiphos or Excalibur...the process of equipping it is the same. The first time you down Kirin or a land king is an accomplishment. Anything after that is repetition which is only entertaining for so long. Gear progression in FFXI was an utter failure...and one that no other MMO has duplicated, and for good reason. Repetition != accomplishment. Progression = accomplishment, and when pretty much an entire expansion (ie. CoP) revolves around hitting the AH or sorting through your mules to find gear you thought you had outgrown 45 levels ago, there's something wrong.


Accomplishment. Relief is something that comes when you're done with something unpleasant. EX: Finishing a test, hopefully with a good grade. Accomplishment is an emotion associated with preforming well (and the pride that comes with high preformance). EX: Acing said test. Killing the monster the first time is an accomplishment, so is getting its loot. Slaying Nidhogg and obtaining an Adaman Hauberk are 2 entirely different things. Saying its not an accomplishment after the first time you equip new gear is utter bull.

You've accomplished something when you've obtained that hard-to-get, powerful item: You got your character the best available piece of gear for X class in Y gear slot.

As far as CoP goes: Ever think maybe, just maybe it felt like you were working backwords because...well...you were?

It was intended that players progress through CoP as they progress in level. Level 30 characters to Promyvions, then level 40 characters do Phomiuna Aqueducts. It didn't work in practice as well as it did in theory, mainly because low level players were focused on nothing but grinding. CoP is an absolutely amazing expansion pack. Playing through it was one of the most challenging and enjoyable gaming experiences I've ever had, and it had an absolutely excellent story to boot. The fact that you pick CoP, of all things, to complain about is something I find laughable. It means you completely missed the point.

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I'd prefer if we could avoid gross exaggeration. Content patches in WoW come out usually every 4-6 months. Major expansions every 12-18 months. Again, I'll take fresh and new over repetition any day.


"Fresh and new" translates roughly to "make everything before this patch/expansion" obsolete, and "repetition" translates roughly to "linearly-expanding content"

FFXI's endgame was designed specifically so that gear and content wouldn't go out of date. It's why people still compete heavily over the Kings that were introduced 4 years ago. At the same time, there is just as much competition taking place server-wide over Sandworm and Dark Ixion, the games newest HNMs.

You may call it repetition, I call it not wasting my time attaining something that I know, without doubt, will be outclassed in 3 weeks. I could start a new WoW account today and within a month or two have any class at max level with pretty much perfect gear. This is totally awesome, until I realize that the new version update is 2 weeks away and I get to obtain a whole new set of gear, because its completely outclassing what I just got.

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Entirely untrue. With the most recent expansion, Blizzard moved and retuned one raid dungeon because it fit with the lore. That's the one and only time Blizzard has repeated a raid dungeon. The previous expansion had a total of 7 raid dungeons comprised of over 40 unique boss encounters. When better gear becomes available, it typically comes from the next tier of raid content. You gear up in one raid so that you're able to succeed in the next. Again, it's about progression and moving from one thing to the next as opposed to grinding the same thing ad infinitum for...a piece of gear. I play for the process, not the reward. The reward is the icing on the cake, but if the cake tastes like sh*t it's just icing on sh*t.


Moving from one thing to the next?
Oh..like..
moving from Fafnir to Nidhogg to Tiamat?
Or moving from City Dynamis, to Dynamis-Beaucedine, to Dynamis Xarcbard?
How about progressing from Ix'Aerns, through the tiers of Sea Jailers, until you hit Jailer of Love, or (lol) Absolute Virtue?
Or progressing from Sky pop NMs, to Gods, to Kirin?

Do I really need to continue?

FFXI's endgame is progressive to. Its just several different sets of progressive events (HNMs, Dynamis, Limbus, Sky, Sea, Einherjar, etc.) that all share a few common factors...one of which being that at least some of the gear from each event is still useful.

You can have fun beating a bunch of lower-tier raids that offer no reward to reach the high-tier raid that will become yet another low-tier raid in 4 months. I'll do the same thing, but reap the benefits of every event along the way.
#27 Jun 03 2009 at 3:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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TanthalassPhoenix wrote:

Accomplishment. Relief is something that comes when you're done with something unpleasant.


Yes, and if monotonous repetition and enduring the anxiety and drama brought on by loot whores fighting over rare drops is a pleasant experience for you, then by all means label it an accomplishment. I call it relief.

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Accomplishment is an emotion associated with preforming well (and the pride that comes with high preformance). EX: Acing said test. Killing the monster the first time is an accomplishment, so is getting its loot. Slaying Nidhogg and obtaining an Adaman Hauberk are 2 entirely different things. Saying its not an accomplishment after the first time you equip new gear is utter bull.


Forgive the nitpicking, but "accomplishment" is not an emotion.

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You've accomplished something when you've obtained that hard-to-get, powerful item: You got your character the best available piece of gear for X class in Y gear slot.


Okay, I'll accept that as long as you can accept the reality that not everyone finds months/years of grinding the exact same content over and over again for the sake of getting a piece of gear for a virtual character to be "entertaining".

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As far as CoP goes: Ever think maybe, just maybe it felt like you were working backwords because...well...you were?


I know...and it's ****-poor game design.

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It was intended that players progress through CoP as they progress in level.


Ya...which is great...if it's content that you release at the very beginning of the game's lifespan. When you release that kind of content when the majority of players are already at the level cap, it's ridiculous.

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Level 30 characters to Promyvions, then level 40 characters do Phomiuna Aqueducts. It didn't work in practice as well as it did in theory, mainly because low level players were focused on nothing but grinding. CoP is an absolutely amazing expansion pack. Playing through it was one of the most challenging and enjoyable gaming experiences I've ever had, and it had an absolutely excellent story to boot. The fact that you pick CoP, of all things, to complain about is something I find laughable. It means you completely missed the point.


No, I didn't miss the point. I thoroughly enjoyed the CoP storyline. I thought the requirement of re-gearing a level 75 toon for multiple tiers of level capped content to be patently absurd and something that could have been avoided if SE had a better handle on what their players actually wanted.

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I'd prefer if we could avoid gross exaggeration. Content patches in WoW come out usually every 4-6 months. Major expansions every 12-18 months. Again, I'll take fresh and new over repetition any day.


"Fresh and new" translates roughly to "make everything before this patch/expansion" obsolete, and "repetition" translates roughly to "linearly-expanding content"


It's not obsolete. New players just starting can experience it with the same fresh enthusiasm as the veterans who passed through it months/years ago. If veterans want to experience it again, they can level an alt. If you're a veteran player and you're only looking forward to the new, there's something there for you, too. Again, it's about diversity and not forcing your players down one narrow path. FFXI was notorious for that. More people remain happy if you add than if you simply force people to go back and revisit the same old stuff.

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FFXI's endgame was designed specifically so that gear and content wouldn't go out of date. It's why people still compete heavily over the Kings that were introduced 4 years ago. At the same time, there is just as much competition taking place server-wide over Sandworm and Dark Ixion, the games newest HNMs.


The content...is out of date. It's ooooooooooooooooooold. Sky is ooooooooooooold. Land kings are oooooooooooold. It's new if you're doing it for the first time. After that it's...repetition. But again, if you only play for the gear, I suppose oooooooooooooold content is fine by you.

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You may call it repetition, I call it not wasting my time attaining something that I know, without doubt, will be outclassed in 3 weeks. I could start a new WoW account today and within a month or two have any class at max level with pretty much perfect gear. This is totally awesome, until I realize that the new version update is 2 weeks away and I get to obtain a whole new set of gear, because its completely outclassing what I just got.


Let me put it to you bluntly...do you play the game for the gameplay and the "experience", or do you play the game for the gear? If you play the game for the gear, keep playing FFXI. Those of us who played FFXI and ultimately found it lacking are looking forward to something NEW. But I suppose you don't like the idea of FFXIV because not only will it make your FFXI gear obsolete, it will make your entire FFXI character obsolete, and apparently that is something you'd happily avoid like the plague as long as you've got a nice shiny piece of gear to covet from two years ago that will last you the next few years until SE starts merging servers and everyone still playing is forced to accept reality. If you like FFXI, awesome. If you'd played anything else that has come out since then for any length of time, you'd see more clearly what is being discussed here.

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Moving from one thing to the next?
Oh..like..
moving from Fafnir to Nidhogg to Tiamat?


...yadda yadda yadda...

Do I really need to continue? [/quote]

Not really...because you'd run out of things to list in an awful hurry and then you'd be out of things to list. Then I'd feel compelled to list all raid bosses in order of progression starting with the 60-cap raids up to current and you'd see what progression really means. Then you'd probably come back with BCNMs and instanced mission content and I'd have to come back with WoW 5-man content and once again you'd be confronted with the stark reality that FFXI has nothing on WoW when it comes to diversity.

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You can have fun beating a bunch of lower-tier raids that offer no reward to reach the high-tier raid that will become yet another low-tier raid in 4 months. I'll do the same thing, but reap the benefits of every event along the way.


Covet virtual gear in a virtual world all you want. If that's meaningful to you, great. And I mean that. Again, I'm more interested in the process. You know...what you actually do to get the gear...also known as what you spend the majority of your time in the game doing. I don't ever once recall logging in to FFXI to bask in the glow of accomplishment after the newest shiny found its way on to my toon. I logged in to play the game. Then I realized that I didn't like the game because it wasn't fun for me anymore. It was ooooooooooold. So I moved on. And I hope SE does too.
#28Maldavian, Posted: Jun 03 2009 at 4:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) SE definatly has moved on. But not in the direction that you want, and that is to make FF14 into a WoW clone. IMO stay with WoW since you seem to praise that game a lot.
#29TanthalassPhoenix, Posted: Jun 03 2009 at 4:41 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So you want FFXIV to be a WoW clone? Gee that makes sense. In fact, I like it. From now on, every single shooter has to be a Halo clone, every single action game has to be a Devil May Cry clone, every single RTS has to be a Starcraft clone, and every single platformer has to be a Mario clone.
#30 Jun 03 2009 at 4:49 AM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

Then I realized that I didn't like the game because it wasn't fun for me anymore. It was ooooooooooold. So I moved on. And I hope SE does too.


SE definatly has moved on. But not in the direction that you want, and that is to make FF14 into a WoW clone. IMO stay with WoW since you seem to praise that game a lot.


Please don't assume you know what I want. I've never said FFXI should duplicate WoW. EQ was already dead/dying when FFXI arrived on the scene and in a sense, FFXI was the first of the current generation of MMOs. Subsequent MMOs had the advantage of looking at what worked in EQ and FFXI and what didn't and try to develop games that responded to what players said they wanted.

Nothing would make me happier from a gamers perspective than for SE to not just humbly try to snatch up the MMO gamers not engrossed with WoW, but to offer a better product and compete directly with Blizzard for top spot on the list of active subscriptions. Part of that means looking at what WoW has that's working and that FFXI lacks and implement it in FFXIV. Part of it is also looking at what WoW doesn't have but that players want and incorporating that, as well.
#31 Jun 03 2009 at 4:52 AM Rating: Decent
I stopped reading about halfway down the posts to realize that what everyone wants is a WoW mirror. Seriously although ffxi had a lot of flaws, it also had its good points. And it seems the good points outweigh the bad considering anyone who has spent a significant amount of time in FFXI generally comes back.

I'm going to come out and say it. FFXI endgame isnt for the casual player. The gear and such are rewards for dedicating time and effort into a game. If every Tom, Joe, and Sue get a riddil, where is the glory in that?

FFXI did a lot of great and innovative things, and without a doubt they will continue to surprise in upcoming projects(XIV).

But if you want a WoW mirror go somewhere else, because i guarantee that SE will not conform.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 8:54am by Alblucan
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#32 Jun 03 2009 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
TanthalassPhoenix wrote:
Sorry to tell you, but the majority of players were not level 75 in 2004 when Chains of Promathia was released.


Yes, actually, they were. If you combine the entire playerbase to include the Japanese, the majority of players did have at least one job at the level cap when CoP was released.

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The content...is out of date. It's ooooooooooooooooooold. Lv 60 Raids are ooooooooooooold. Lv 70 Raids are oooooooooooold. It's new if you're doing it for the first time. After that it's...repetition. But again, if you only play for the gear, I suppose oooooooooooooold content is fine by you.


Of course they are...but the difference is, nobody in WoW feels comepeled to run ooooooooold content that they've already seen dozens of times in order to get best in slot gear for new content. The ooooooold content is there if they want to experience it, but they can still develop strong toons without ever setting foot in the ooooooooold content again.

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Quite the opposite, actually. I've killed every single HNM in FFXI except for Pandemonium Warden, and cleared just about all other endgame content (haven't fought Odin or cleared Dynamis-Tavnazia). I'm looking forward to FFXIV. I'm sure I'll absolutely love the game. You simply get whooshed by every single thing I say.


No, you're just arguing like any other FFXI neophyte...I know, because I used to be one of them. Then I broadened my horizons and saw what other MMO developers were doing. You might want to give it a try sometime.

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You say you play WoW because it constantly gives you fresh endgame content...but what do you work towards? What goal do you have in mind every time you enter a raid? Are you trying to beat every raid in the game? What exactly are you trying to accomplish, if its not gearing your character better? If you'd played any sort of quality MMO instead of the utter piece of garbage Blizzard totes around as a cash cow, you'd see more clearly what is being discussed here.


Why does there have to be an ultimate goal? What's wrong with logging in to play a game for a while, having fun, and then logging out? What's so important about an accomplishment in a game that I'd subject myself to countless hours of dull repetition to achieve said accomplishment?

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WoW raids are slightly varied, rehashed versions of Einherjar that you do over and over again. The monsters are bosses are different each raid, but they vary in Einherjar too. The only content in WoW that veteran players still do is the newest level 80 raids. When your next patch comes out, everyone will move on to that content, the all the previous dungeons will sit their and rot.


Have you ever played WoW? I'm guessing from your comments that the answer is no. My guess would be that you haven't played any other MMO since FFXI was released or you'd know better than to defend antiquated mechanics. Defend them because they're more suited to your liking, but don't defend them under the auspices that games you haven't played are "bad" because you "heard" something about them.

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The difference is that, even though there is old endgame content in FFXI, its still endgame content. Endgame continuously expands, instead of simply renewing itself over and over again. WoW isn't diverse at all, you're either soloing for exp or doing the same rehashed dungeon raid over and over.


You're way off base by calling them "rehashed". Naxx was a rehash...one raid out of how many? And it was only rehashed for the people who had been raiding in WoW for longer than 2 years. Please argue based on experience, not supposition.

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So you want FFXIV to be a WoW clone?


Who said that? My guess is that whatever your response to that is, I could turn it around and accuse you of wanting FFXIV to be an FFXI clone. Exact same everything, just update the graphics engine, ya? C'mon...you can do better than that.

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Add on the fact that content in FFXI takes longer to complete then content in WoW. Your raid may last 3-4 hours for the entire mission, whereas it takes a good 16 hours of playtime for most sky shells to get a full set of Kirin pops, starting from nothing (killing all the pop NMs and all 4 gods). This is obviously not all supposed to be done in one sitting, but the content is still better put together and more thought-out.


Ya...and how much of those 16 hours is spent twiddling your thumbs waiting for a spawn? Ooohhh...exciting. You go ahead and pay to do nothing if that's your cup of tea. If doing nothing means you feel a sense of accomplishment when you finally succeed at getting to do something, FFXI is definitely the game for you.
#33 Jun 03 2009 at 5:03 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

Then I realized that I didn't like the game because it wasn't fun for me anymore. It was ooooooooooold. So I moved on. And I hope SE does too.


SE definatly has moved on. But not in the direction that you want, and that is to make FF14 into a WoW clone. IMO stay with WoW since you seem to praise that game a lot.


Please don't assume you know what I want. I've never said FFXI should duplicate WoW. EQ was already dead/dying when FFXI arrived on the scene and in a sense, FFXI was the first of the current generation of MMOs. Subsequent MMOs had the advantage of looking at what worked in EQ and FFXI and what didn't and try to develop games that responded to what players said they wanted.

Nothing would make me happier from a gamers perspective than for SE to not just humbly try to snatch up the MMO gamers not engrossed with WoW, but to offer a better product and compete directly with Blizzard for top spot on the list of active subscriptions. Part of that means looking at what WoW has that's working and that FFXI lacks and implement it in FFXIV. Part of it is also looking at what WoW doesn't have but that players want and incorporating that, as well.


The thing you need to understand is that what you think is good in WoW doesnt automaticly mean that eveyone or even SE thinks its good to have in FF14. All your recommendations on how FF14 should be was heaviliy WoW influenced. Again YOU may think that those implementation are good and will improve FF14, but many people will dissagree with you. What makes WoW so popular does'nt necessarily make FF14 good, on the contrary it might even make the game horrible. We have had many good example of games that took that path and see what happened to them, they failed miserably.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 9:04am by Maldavian
#34 Jun 03 2009 at 5:06 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:


Quote:
So you want FFXIV to be a WoW clone?


Who said that? My guess is that whatever your response to that is, I could turn it around and accuse you of wanting FFXIV to be an FFXI clone. Exact same everything, just update the graphics engine, ya? C'mon...you can do better than that.


LOL I rather have FF14 a clone of FF11 then WoW 1000 times over.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 9:08am by Maldavian
#35 Jun 03 2009 at 5:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Alblucan wrote:
I stopped reading about halfway down the posts to realize that what everyone wants is a WoW mirror. Seriously although ffxi had a lot of flaws, it also had its good points. And it seems the good points outweigh the bad considering anyone who has spent a significant amount of time in FFXI generally comes back.

I'm going to come out and say it. FFXI endgame isnt for the casual player. The gear and such are rewards for dedicating time and effort into a game. If every Tom, Joe, and Sue get a riddil, where is the glory in that?


No, not everyone wants a WoW clone. By the same token, not everyone is afraid to look at what other MMOs have going for them and want to see parts of that implemented in FFXIV. I hate to say it, but the FFXI community has always been aggressively ignorant about pretty much everything to do with WoW. It's one thing to not know what you're talking about...it's another thing to criticize something based on what you don't know. WoW just comes up as the most prominent example/comparison because it's currently the most successful MMO on the market by an enormous margin. All the hype around Conan and Warhammer was for nothing...they fell flat.

MMOs require progression. It's not a standalone game where it's expected to have a beginning and an end with maybe an expansion or two that have their own end. MMOs require that their players are constantly presented with a reason to log in. If they continue to feel like they want to log in and play, they continue to pay their subscription fees. If they continue to pay their fees, the developer can continue to create new, quality content for the game. If you ram players into a brick wall (ie. endgame content only suited to hardcore players) and then try to keep everyone else happy by sending them back through old content, you're going to suffer in your bottom line. That's not a WoW business philosophy...that applies to any MMO.

Personally, I really enjoyed LOTRO. Unfortunately, I ran into the same problem with that game that I did with FFXI. I hit a wall. I reached the level cap and there was nothing left to do except level a different character or focus my attention on an extremely small handful of options, all of which involved extensive grinding. Diversity is very important to the success of an MMO, and it's an area where FFXIV could stand to improve vastly over what was offered with FFXI.
#36 Jun 03 2009 at 5:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:

The thing you need to understand is that what you think is good in WoW doesnt automaticly mean that eveyone or even SE thinks its good to have in FF14. All your recommendations on how FF14 should be was heaviliy WoW influenced. Again YOU may think that those implementation are good and will improve FF14, but many people will dissagree with you. What makes WoW so popular does'nt necessarily make FF14 good, on the contrary it might even make the game horrible. We have had many good example of games that took that path and see what happened to them, they failed miserably.


My first post says nothing about WoW. As far as I know, no MMO since FFXI has incorporated xp loss as a penalty for death. It's not like WoW is the only MMO to exclude that from the design. LOTRO has a pretty extensive grind involved in character development, but it's offset largely in part by the option to do a lot of that grinding solo if a group isn't readily available. The majority of MMO gamers don't like things to be pointlessly vague. If I log on to play, I don't want to spend the first 30+ minutes of my playtime just trying to get to where I need to be (assuming I can find a group as soon as a log on...pfffft...good luck). And anyone who has first hand experience with SE's customer service relative to the service of any MMO developer to release a product since FFXI will know that SE could stand to make some serious improvements there, too.

What anyone getting up in arms over reference to WoW would do well to understand is that WoW earns the subscription fees from more MMO gamers every month than any other MMO in the world. That's what we call a "majority", and you're going to have to get used to the fact that WoW will often be included in any comparison to a current or future MMO until someone surpasses WoW's success. Don't worry...it's not the end of the world, but if people dismiss ideas simply because they resemble concepts already in place in WoW just because it's...WoW...that's just not helpful.
#37 Jun 03 2009 at 6:52 AM Rating: Default
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The biggest mistake SE could make would be to cave in to the demands of people like Aurelius. The fact that you think everyone agrees with your vision of what FFXIV should be to become successful is a joke. I played WoW for years and it was a great game, but I always came back to FFXI because in the end, its just a better game for me. Linear progression is an outdated model. Farming one dungeon to get gear that is good enough for the next dungeon just isn't going to cut it in next-gen mmo's. A more open end-game environment like FFXI's is, imo, how it should be done. I want to log on and know that I have a lots of different things I could do to improve my character that day, from missions, to meriting, to improving my gear in a very wide array of raiding options. The fact that if I put the time in to camp things I can really distinguish myself from other players, and for a some of items I don't even need a full group to do it. The newest dungeon that comes out shouldn't instantly make all of my gear outdated. It should offer upgrades for some pieces and alternatives to others. I enjoy building different sets for different situations instead of just always wearing the piece that has the most spellpower or whatever stat I am currently prioritizing in WoW.

I agree that there are things that work in WoW that SE couldn't go wrong with taking, but the way they handle end-game content certainly isn't one of them.
#38 Jun 03 2009 at 6:55 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
The majority of MMO gamers don't like things to be pointlessly vague. If I log on to play, I don't want to spend the first 30+ minutes of my playtime just trying to get to where I need to be (assuming I can find a group as soon as a log on...pfffft...good luck).


Again thats your playstyle, you want everything handed to you on a silverplate, that doesnt mean that FF14 should cater your need, IMO you should pick the MMO that is close to your need, and in this case its seems like WoW is the MMO that fits perfectly for you.

AureliusSir wrote:

What anyone getting up in arms over reference to WoW would do well to understand is that WoW earns the subscription fees from more MMO gamers every month than any other MMO in the world. That's what we call a "majority", and you're going to have to get used to the fact that WoW will often be included in any comparison to a current or future MMO until someone surpasses WoW's success. Don't worry...it's not the end of the world, but if people dismiss ideas simply because they resemble concepts already in place in WoW just because it's...WoW...that's just not helpful.


I dont give a jack about WoW or that WoW is the biggest MMO, they run their own style of game and FF11 & FF14 will have its own unique style. Does it bother me that FF14 wont beat WOW ? Not at all, in fact even if they have low subscriber numbers but steady ones that will play the game for 10 years im ok with that. FF14 will not take any WoW player UNLESS those WoW player are FED up with WoW and want something new, something different then WoW, and FF14 will cater that.
#39 Jun 03 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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This thread seems to have devolved into fanboyism and bashing.

I like both games. I think WoW does some things better (combat, interface, customer service) and FFXI does other things which are a little more subtle, but just as worthy. In FFXI I just feel like there is a much greater sense of attachment and connection to your avatar. In WoW, I have 6 different characters. You could delete one of them, and I'd miss it, but that's not my identity in that game. In fact I don't really have a set identity.

I *DO* think that gear in WoW is largely meaningless. It's all just a stat upgrade from the previous level, and it's all essentially disposable. I get a trinket of uber this week, and when the next patch comes out, I get a trinket of uber +1 to replace that. I'm not talking about leveling up, where every game has a progression of gear, but even at max level.

To this day, in FFXI, there are still many pieces such as particular AF pieces, peacock charm, emperor hairpin, leaping boots, etc that are obtained at low level and continue to have value for a long time (if not forever, depending on job). Some of this is because of the silly "swap every piece of gear any time you want" shenanigans, but a lot of it is just because S-E has been conservative about making old content obsolete.

If you're a MNK and you get a black belt, are you *EVER* going to replace that? Getting a BB might take a ton of effort, but when you get it, that's a defining moment in your virtual career. When a RDM completes his HQ Staff set, that means something. He's going to keep those forever (or at least for as long as he plays RDM). Whatever job you play, there's probably some example like this. There is nothing like any of this in WoW. Whatever you get today, you WILL replace in 4-6 months tops.

Both games can promote certain elitist and loot whorish aspects, but IMO only Final Fantasy gives you a sense of virtual accomplishment by slowing down the pace and not replacing every piece of gear at every tier of content.

The more MMOs that I play, the more that I appreciate the nuances and design decisions made in FFXI.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 2:21pm by KarlHungis
#40 Jun 03 2009 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
Again thats your playstyle, you want everything handed to you on a silverplate, that doesnt mean that FF14 should cater your need, IMO you should pick the MMO that is close to your need, and in this case its seems like WoW is the MMO that fits perfectly for you.


Silver platter? Not at all. I just think that spending 18+ months worth of weekly grinds for one piece of gear is fundamentally insane and not the least bit entertaining. My guess is that within the entire spectrum of MMO players, more people would agree with me than disagree.
#41 Jun 03 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius, you really summed up well my feelings about this FFXI and FF14 issue. Great post.

I really hope SE gets things right this time around.
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#42 Jun 03 2009 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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From the devs at the press conference:

"...We will try to keep it more casual..."

Probably the single most encouraging thing I could have read about FFXIV today.

Hmmm...also from the press conference...

"They really want to make FFXIV so that it's not as much of a party game and more of a 'do what you want' game."

It might appear that SE really is moving away from the, "Doing nothing for hours on end should be fun!" design philosophy.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 12:32pm by AureliusSir
#43 Jun 03 2009 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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oops...double post >.<

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 12:31pm by AureliusSir
#44 Jun 03 2009 at 11:36 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
From the devs at the press conference:

"...We will try to keep it more casual..."

Probably the single most encouraging thing I could have read about FFXIV today.

Hmmm...also from the press conference...

"They really want to make FFXIV so that it's not as much of a party game and more of a 'do what you want' game."

It might appear that SE really is moving away from the, "Doing nothing for hours on end should be fun!" design philosophy.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 12:32pm by AureliusSir


Field of Valor and similair implementation is what he is talking about. I wouldnt say that is fun to level up to max level with Field of Valor, it will take enourmous time to reach high level compare to a xp party, so at the end of the day people will still choose xp party.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 3:36pm by Maldavian
#45 Jun 03 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
Field of Valor and similair implementation is what he is talking about. I wouldnt say that is fun to level up to max level with Field of Valor, it will take enourmous time to reach high level compare to a xp party, so at the end of the day people will still choose xp party.


I think that would be a hopeful assumption on your part. I've just read the transcript from the press conference and there's no mention of FoV, but at least 2 distinct mentions for having FFXIV include content for a more wide array of players. That doesn't necessarily mean, "just as hardcore but with a few extra tidbits thrown to casual users." It sounds to me like a more balanced game that will have long term appeal to both casual and hardcore players alike. I won't mention what other MMOs already take that approach to their content design because it doesn't matter. Today's press conference is highly encouraging to people like me who loved the concept of FFXI but came to loathe the implementation. It's not-so-encouraging news for people who want FFXIV to be just another incarnation of FFXI.
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