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Learning from WoWFollow

#1 Jun 03 2009 at 1:51 AM Rating: Good
Yes, 'darkrainkujata' had the post first but made the mistake of claiming the best idea was to make FFF a WoW clone and had his thread promptly nuked to ashes.

So here's a new one, similar idea: For people who have played WoW, what things have we learned? What things were great and what things would we never ever want to see?

To me, the main thing WoW really got right was instancing dungeons. FFF could take this a step further and make instanced world boss fights even. Sort of like using orbs put you in an arena, there could be areas of the world (where no monsters path through) where you go and click and are instanced into the boss fight. Maybe it would do something like put a translucent ring on the ground and if you run a certain distance out of that you have fleed and are taken out of the boss instance. It would be an upgrade from popping monsters that feasibly get stolen.

Bind on equip gear. Oh god, please no. I hate this so very much. I understand having some really rare items be ex but I *liked* being able to sell stuff I didn't want anymore. It made it an investment, not a consumable. Also as long as crafts can desynth items for materials, you're not going to flood the market.

Found recipes. One thing I did like about WoW better is that some recipes were really rare. Since some recipes were hard to get, they didn't have to take the left tonsil of tiamat every time for a powerful cloak or whatever to stay rare. I thought the fact that every synth in FFXI took a crystal was sort of contrived.

Ease: Something I've realized is that even though some things in FFXI are really frustrating, man you feel good once you finish them. WoW does hand you a lot of stuff. In some cases that's good, but its not for everything. What I've realized is that you need a healthy mix of both for players to find their level of challeng to try for. Too easy and everyone is bored (or too easy except that one exclusive raid that if you don't have a raid guild for, you just don't see), too hard and people are just annoyed, but even then that will hook some people.

Combat: I have to admit, I liked the fast paced combat for WoW better. : \ Its not even just the fast pace of actually doing stuff, but that it looks much cooler if your character is swinging a lot as compared to FFXI where so much of the battle is spent standing there. Even increasing the auto-swing timer x3 or so would have helped this. Looking cool is very important to a game!


PvP: PvP can be fun from time to time but people obsess over it and when things start being balanced over number crunching and PvP fairness, it really takes any real flavor out of the classes and abilities. Paladins have an ability for instance, called 'exorcism'. It used to do damage to undead and demons only. Ok, that makes sense, it's banishing them. But then they made it work on everything for balance purposes. Why am I exorcising deer? Is it a possessed deer? Then they made it work only on npcs and not on players or anything controlled by players, because... ? Well its because they had to balance it for PvP. Honestly I'd rather have absolutely no PvP at all than such a PvP focus for balancing everything that completely ignores the actual lore and flavor of the game. Ballista was ok, it was a limited entertaining event.

One more thing on PvP though, if people are able to change their jobs, its more ok that certain jobs just aren't good for PvP since people can change to a different job. Its like IRL, a lawyer isn't going to be nearly as good at hand to hand combat as a marine.

Anyways, those are some of mine! *stares back up at the mountain of text*
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#2 Jun 03 2009 at 2:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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I agree with this post a lot.

Combat in WoW is smoother and faster paced. I like that. Instancing of content I think is a no brainer, and S-E figured out over time that it wasn't a coincidence that the most loved content was the instanced content such as BCNMs. One thing not mentioned in the first post is customer service. This isn't a feature of the game per se, but it's something that S-E really needs to learn, not just from Blizzard but from the industry as a whole. Even games that are disasterous such as Age of Conan have blown S-E away in terms of customer service.

Areas where WoW fails compared to FFXI:

Everything is too easy. Yea, FFXI can be very frustrating sometimes, but **** do you feel good when you accomplish a long term goal. Even something as simple as unlocking your sub job, getting your chocobo license, a new gobbie bag upgrade etc all make a big difference and all take at least some effort to obtain. In WoW, there is nothing you can accomplish that isn't going to be trivialized in a few months. There is nothing that is hard for you now that will be equally hard for some one else in six months. The only thing that lasts is the memory of doing something during the brief time that it was still challenging and not every one had done it.

Gear: Bind on Equip SUCKS. Random/cookie cutter gear SUCKS. FFXI has this 90% right. Make gear last, make gear matter, make gear have value and permanence.
#3 Jun 03 2009 at 2:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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As far as "make gear last and matter"... make gear be readily broken apart into all its components (your choice of how far) and make it easily upgraded.

For example, say you begin with a leather vest. You could throw in some bronze ingots and, with some work, get a bronze breastplate, 3-4 levels higher with some extra defense. You could then dismantle that into a few pieces of bronzed leather, take one of those pieces and some wood, and get a leather shield. The other pieces could be combined with a few iron ingots to produce scale mail, which is another 4-5 levels higher...
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#4TanthalassPhoenix, Posted: Jun 03 2009 at 2:44 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I agree with this on most parts. PvP should not be the focus of any MMO imo, especially not FFXIV (although it almost certainly won't be anyway, so no worries). Maybe its just how I personally define MMO's, but I want a co-operative RPG. I want to play through a Final Fantasy game where I only control 1 member of the party. I'm not playing a fighting game, I'm playing an RPG. Give me some content that doesn't revolve around me fighting against another player over and over again.
#5 Jun 03 2009 at 2:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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TanthalassPhoenix wrote:
Some instanced dungeons are fine. Dynamis should have been instanced. Limbus, Einherjar, Salvage, and Assaults are all instanced as well. BCNMs, ENMs, KSNMs, etc. etc.

The biggest problem with FFXI's endgame is the 3 kings, and they're one of the only things I would honestly adjust. Having every single endgame event being instanced is, quite frankly, boring. You feel accomplished when you obtain rare gear because the gear is rare. If any scrub can go to an instanced DA and fight Nidhogg over and over and over until they get E Body and/or Dalm, the gear is no longer rare, and loses a lot of its wonder.
First paragraph: they're not instanced like they should have been. FFXI's system is pretty half-assed: you get a bunch of copies of the area spread out so that you can't hear/see the nearest copy. Fine in general principle (assuming it's not a popular area - if it is, you run out of copies to be in), lame in practice.

And just because the area is instanced doesn't mean the gear isn't going to be rare anyway - it could be a pain to go after the entry item, for example. (Which still leads to ********* cf. Ulli.) To be honest, I think you feel accomplished because you get to heckle all the people who didn't claim the king, whether you get Ridill or a bunch of abjurations that everyone's already got and are now rotting.
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#6 Jun 03 2009 at 3:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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TanthalassPhoenix wrote:

The biggest problem with FFXI's endgame is the 3 kings, and they're one of the only things I would honestly adjust. Having every single endgame event being instanced is, quite frankly, boring. You feel accomplished when you obtain rare gear because the gear is rare. If any scrub can go to an instanced DA and fight Nidhogg over and over and over until they get E Body and/or Dalm, the gear is no longer rare, and loses a lot of its wonder.


If SE took a page from WoW's book, Nidhogg would be found in a raid dungeon. Most raid dungeons in WoW have a 7 day reset. It starts Tuesday morning. You can enter with your raid group and when you down a boss, you are saved to that instance. You can then enter that instance again and that boss will be dead and gone until the following Tuesday morning when the entire instance is reset. In other words...you can only kill a particular boss once/week.

In essence, the only difference between an instanced Nidhogg on a 7 day reset and a world spawn Nidhogg on a 21-24 spawn timer is that you're guaranteed to be able to fight Nidhogg once/week in an instance at a time that is agreeable to enough people in your LS to make it happen, whereas the world spawn version is only something you can fight if a) the spawn window is open at a time when you and enough people from your shell are present to have a reasonable chance at winning the fight and b) you win the claim.

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Bind on equip gear. Oh god, please no. I hate this so very much. I understand having some really rare items be ex but I *liked* being able to sell stuff I didn't want anymore. It made it an investment, not a consumable. Also as long as crafts can desynth items for materials, you're not going to flood the market.


This was one of WoW's huge plethora of absolutely retarded ideas.


Not really. Gear in FFXI was so relatively hard to come by the making most of it Rare/Ex would have meant a great many half naked toons running around. WoW is also not the only MMO to make common use of bind on pickup/bind on equip gear. It's a system that works if basic gear is easy enough to obtain that you don't have to keep everything that ever drops in circulation so that there's enough to go around. It's not a system that would work in FFXI, but it works in WoW (and other games) and would work in FFXIV if SE does a better job with itemization.

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How is it contrived? The 8 elements are what make up the entire world, and each element has some sort of synthesis factor associated with it (break, melt, carve, bond, etc.). I find it stupid that a master craftsman would have to go find a recipe for something. They should be able to make something without being told how to, its one of the signs of a master craftsman imo.


Why would I need to go out and kill an innocent elemental or rob some poor goblin for a Fire Crystal to smelt some ingots when there's a friggin' forge in the smithy? Why would I need a wind crystal to carve something when I could use a knife? Why would I need a water crystal to dissolve something while I'm standing next to a body of water?

I'm not saying there's something horribly wrong with the crystal system for crafting in FFXI, but you can't argue that it's not contrived.

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I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. If I wanted an easy game, I'd play WoW. Lots of people want to play an easy MMO. That's why they play WoW. They're not typical MMO players, they're people who found an easy, never-ending game that keeps leading them on by waving a carrot in front of their face.


That's just a horribly biased and unfounded view you've developed. In my case, I didn't leave FFXI for WoW. I left FFXI. Then I found WoW. After playing WoW for a while, I couldn't help but notice all the differences that left me saying, "Man, I can't believe I put up with that crap in FFXI for so long." I wasn't looking for "easy". I was looking for "fun". For me, the grind in FFXI (specifically, the repetition and restrictions) were not fun. I enjoyed being able to go out and grind XP whether I could find a suitable group or not. I liked being able to gather materials to skill up my professions while I was out gaining xp. I liked the steady sense of progression, and I liked the fact that I rarely felt like I had run out of new things to do.

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FFXIV is not going to become successful by copying off of WoW, and this is the number one thing SE needs to avoid. The game has to be accessible, but it also has to be difficult. FFXI is frustrating primarily because SE doesn't tell us a ******* thing. We STILL don't know what CHR does, and the games been out 7 years. All of our info comes from user-done testing. Even most basic quests require you to do things or to go places not at all mentioned in the quest description or by the NPC, you are supposed to simply figure it out. Players will openly welcome a fairly difficult quest as long as they actually know what said quest is.


People who are still playing a dated MMO are usually the last ones to notice/acknowledge what everyone else already knows: the game is dead, and has been dead for some time. The FFXI population is dwindling, not growing, and that's not an indication of current success. FFXI peaked years ago. People who still play FFXI will receive no condescension from me, but to say that FFXI is in any way a shining example of MMO success that should be duplicated with FFXIV would be an erroneous statement. FFXI took off in North America because the brand legacy drew in a lot of players and outside of EQ, there was little/nothing to compare it to. (And FFXI vs. EQ was no comparison at all). WoW revolutionized the MMO scene because it had something for everyone, not just a select group of people who insisted that hours upon hours upon hours of identical repetition and inactivity were suitable challenges to overcome in the name of getting the next shiny for the sense of "accomplishment" and status.

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Tripling the auto-swing timer would mean you're tripling every single job's TP gain and output, and would force the combat system to be completely redone.


Not really. Triple the swing timer and cut TP gain by 1/3. TP gain remains the same but the pace of combat is accelerated. Again, no other MMO I know of since FFXI has duplicated the theory that 20 seconds is a "short" cooldown for an ability.

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I quite honestly like the combat system the way it is, it feels more immersive to me. Seasoned fighters aren't going to be concentrating on swinging their weapon as quickly as possible, or as hard as possible, but instead are going to make calculated attacks/parries while focusing on other things.


Seasoned fighters also aren't going to get their asses kicked by monsters so weak and pathetic that said seasoned fighter has nothing to learn from fighting them. Seasoned fighters aren't going to count to 7 between scythe swings "just because" while their buddy with the shield is taking a beating from the 15 foot tall stone monstrosity.

If you like the combat system in FFXI, that's cool but again, not everyone finds, "Hurry up and wait" to be an entertaining game mechanic.

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This is basically what FFXI's combat system represents: the player is focusing on things other then their standard melee attacks because the action has become second nature to the character. You might have fun pressing an attack button over and over again, but I certainly don't unless it somehow adds to actual gameplay.


Pressing buttons in games like WoW or LOTRO add to gameplay. You're not pressing buttons for auto-attacks. You're pressing buttons to make use of your myriad abilities in a particular sequence for a particular result (ie. working a threat rotation as a tank so that you're building as much threat as possible while synchronizing your cooldowns so that everything flows smoothly).
#7 Jun 03 2009 at 3:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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WoW is faster paced, which is good, but I've always preferred FFXI animations. They're more fluid, but it's only because there aren't as many abilities to work on at once.. So a good middleground would be nice in XIV. Not too few abilities, but not too many either while sacrificing the nice animations. I know that FFXI right now has the best animation team there is, so I trust that they can fullfill my expectations.
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#8 Jun 03 2009 at 3:46 AM Rating: Good
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I hope it's nothing like WoW, I hated WoW and it's combat system, spamming quicklots isn't my idea of interesting combat, I prefer the slower paced strategic combat system of FFXI, and I hope FFXIV has similar play style.

The main reason I played FFXI is because of it's uniqueness in gameplay style, maybe it's just me.
#9 Jun 03 2009 at 3:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I hope it's nothing like WoW, I hated WoW and it's combat system, spamming quicklots isn't my idea of interesting combat, I prefer the slower paced strategic combat system of FFXI, and I hope FFXIV has similar play style.

The main reason I played FFXI is because of it's uniqueness in gameplay style, maybe it's just me.


I did like it more too, but some things just have to go.

Mainly Utsusemi and Haste, but defense calculations post-50 as well. Broken game is broken.
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#10 Jun 03 2009 at 4:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Combat System: It needs to be a blend of both WoW and FFXI. FFXI had a lot of really great idea's thrown into a slow paced combat system that made it cool, but slow enough to not feel "exciting" at most times. Skill Chains are one of the most unique and original combat ideas that came from FFXI, and done at a faster pace would make them much better. This leads into the next suggestion...

Instanced Dungeons: Obviously, the "dungeon crawling" concept is hardly new to MMO's, and hardly WoW's claim to fame. But the idea of seperating the game World from the Dungeons for unique ID instancing is just the smarter way to go...I think most agree with this. Coupled with a faster combat pace, multi-mob pulling, so on and so forth...there's a lot of "good" that could come from FFXIV with a mix of things.

Interface: This is a big pet peeve. I don't want the vast ocean of "AddOns" WoW has. And this is coming from a WoW AddOn author. But SE really needs to get rid of the menu-based system that FFXI had and move to a more streamlined and modern interface. The macroing system was nice, but it required a lot of time to setup & modify, as well as knowledge of what was capable with the system.

World Consistency: Again, not necessarily WoW's own from an originality point of view, but this is important for A) Travel and B) Open World Feeling. Zoning from zone to zone makes it feel less like a world and more like a constricted game. Adding open world consistency will make things much better, much more fluid feeling, and create an "Open" world to explore.
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#11 Jun 03 2009 at 5:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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What are other people's opinions on the different auction house systems in FFXI and WoW?

World of warcraft does work more like a real a auction with the buyer setting the price payed where as FFXI's are weighted more towards the seller's prices. I think this part of it works. The problem with WoW's auctions are the time they take to finish. When you want to upgrade your gear you can find yourself waiting along time before you actually know if you've got the equipment or not. By that point half the time you find out you lost the auction and still have no gear or you won the auction but you've already gained several more levels and what you bought is now obsolete. For this reason I prefer FFXI's instant results. What would you like to see in FFXIV?
#12 Jun 03 2009 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
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Wizbyte wrote:
I hope it's nothing like WoW, I hated WoW and it's combat system, spamming quicklots isn't my idea of interesting combat, I prefer the slower paced strategic combat system of FFXI, and I hope FFXIV has similar play style.

The main reason I played FFXI is because of it's uniqueness in gameplay style, maybe it's just me.


^ I agree 100% with this - I'll stick with FFXI if the combat system in FFXIV is like WoW's.

It will be very interesting to see what they learned from XI an apply to XIV.
#13 Jun 03 2009 at 5:33 AM Rating: Good
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Interface: This is a big pet peeve. I don't want the vast ocean of "AddOns" WoW has. And this is coming from a WoW AddOn author. But SE really needs to get rid of the menu-based system that FFXI had and move to a more streamlined and modern interface. The macroing system was nice, but it required a lot of time to setup & modify, as well as knowledge of what was capable with the system.

I like the menu-based interface but I wouldn't be against a little change. As long as we don't end up with WoW's interface where you can end up with most the screen covered with icons and nothing left for the game. I like something nice and minimal.

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World Consistency: Again, not necessarily WoW's own from an originality point of view, but this is important for A) Travel and B) Open World Feeling. Zoning from zone to zone makes it feel less like a world and more like a constricted game. Adding open world consistency will make things much better, much more fluid feeling, and create an "Open" world to explore.

I agree with this. This is something that WoW got right for the most part. A seamless world would be an excellent improvement over FFXI's zoning.
#14 Jun 03 2009 at 5:45 AM Rating: Decent
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my post was a joke ; ; you are an idea stealer
but ty for recognizing my awesomeness <33

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 9:46am by darkrainkujata
#15 Jun 03 2009 at 5:50 AM Rating: Decent
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While I too wish SE reads opinions and adapts the game, I would think it is already too late to suggest anything. SE has done their usual "We work alone" strategy and haven't given out any information, until it was more or less done.

They are just digging their own grave, but until the day they actually listens that is the only thing they can do.

I'm going to be looking for the reviews when it nears release and if I do not hear "And the NM system has been replaced by point based system like Assault" the game is staying on the shelves at the store.
#16 Jun 03 2009 at 5:54 AM Rating: Good
I'm going to type out my thoughts here, don't know how well or how condescending they're going to come out...

My biggest problem with WOW is the player base and it's for 2x reasons...

1) PvP junkies. Yeah it's funny to tea bag somebody once or twice a week, but the fact that you killed me yesterday and I was still x levels below you, and you tea bagged me again just shows that you're a complete idiot. The fact that FFXI is pretty much nothing but working together for one common goal shows comrodere even with *** hole players, or with the silliest newb. The best friends I've met in FFXI have been the level 30 pick up in Promyvion that just flat out out shine as whatever job they bring, and to me PVP just takes away a lot of that 'work together' hippy commune feel I have.

2) The player base. Thrs ppl in ffxi who tlk lik on a cellphone, and I can say without doubt I've never been let down by not inviting someone who cannot type out a simple sentence, especially on first impressions. On the PS3 community I can safely say most people talk like this, and WOW is by far one of the worst games at this. FFXI has it's shortened words like BLM, BCNM, ROZ. Every time I play WOW I have to remember every shortening for every common phrase in existence.

LTR MCR 40 LFGASklaska
s

**** off.




Other than that I hope this time around they keep 2 lists: What jobs we need to fix, and what jobs we need to add content on. If they kept these 2 lists separate balances would be quicker and more effective for balance.
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#17 Jun 03 2009 at 6:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
World of warcraft does work more like a real a auction with the buyer setting the price payed where as FFXI's are weighted more towards the seller's prices. I think this part of it works. The problem with WoW's auctions are the time they take to finish. When you want to upgrade your gear you can find yourself waiting along time before you actually know if you've got the equipment or not. By that point half the time you find out you lost the auction and still have no gear or you won the auction but you've already gained several more levels and what you bought is now obsolete. For this reason I prefer FFXI's instant results. What would you like to see in FFXIV?


This is why the WoW auction house also has a 'buyout' option that you can set, so that sales can happen immediately if people don't want to wait and hope for a deal. I know I use that option most of the time.

What I'd like to see in FFXIV would be streamlined travel across the world. No more 15 - 20 minute waits for a ship followed by a 20 minute ride followed by a cutscene to get off the boat. There's something wrong when you decide to travel somewhere and then go AFK to read a book or take a shower because there's nothing better to do while you wait for your mode of travel. Now, WoW isn't perfect in this either. Their Flight Path system is very nice, but I swear, some of the paths were drawn out by a drunk hobo with a crayon. The mounts are quite good, easily attained faster movement speed lets me get to what I really want to do faster. And finally, the summoning stones and the mages summoning spell. My word but I love that system. Being able to get all your party members to the same place in short order, and not having to wait 20 extra minutes while you go raise that guy who got aggro halfway through the zone... that's a thing of beauty.

tldr - remove the worst of the travel time sinks please.
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#18 Jun 03 2009 at 6:21 AM Rating: Good
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One thing I learned is party xping is a necessary evil. Yea it sucks waiting hours on hours for a party but it's also the binds that make the FFXI community so great.
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#19 Jun 03 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
People who are still playing a dated MMO are usually the last ones to notice/acknowledge what everyone else already knows: the game is dead, and has been dead for some time. The FFXI population is dwindling, not growing, and that's not an indication of current success. FFXI peaked years ago. People who still play FFXI will receive no condescension from me
Perhaps, wrong (it's been stable and/or slightly growing for about three years running, which is impressive in its own right - I doubt MMO populations normally stay at rate-of-retirement = rate-of-replacement for long spans of time), maybe (though, considering the stable numbers, I'd say it's still at its peak), and HAHAHAHAHAno, your entire post is condescension.
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#20 Jun 03 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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I can already see it in this thread... People that won't let go of bad ideas from Final Fantasy XI. If SE listens to you... this game will not be relevant, just like Final Fantasy XI was, within 2 years time.

The game has to be fun for a lot more people then just hardcore fans of Final Fantasy XI. While I did love Final Fantasy XI in a lot of ways, after playing WoW I realized how difficult everything was in the game. It became harder and harder to justify playing FFXI after I realized that games didn't have to feel like a job anymore. (and I think the FFXI developers were trying to actually make things easier than Everquest was)

I hope this games makes it so we want to adventure together and explore together. I hope we get bonuses for fighting with others. I want a lot of emphasis on big time bonuses for partying with other adventurers. However, I don't want it the only way we can level up. When you purchase a game you should be able to play it when you turn it on,and you should be able to play it your own way. If you want to solo, lets make it easy to solo as well. You will go slower when soloing but not at such a disadvantage that the game loses all of it's fun. (50xp a kill and it takes 3 minutes to kill each mob is HORRIBLE) Also let's tweak party dynamics so that certain jobs don't get completely hosed.

I want the advantage to party with a group of people to be that you pick up more XP, you kill mobs even faster, and YOU PICK UP MORE ITEMS! You should always get bonuses for killing IT mobs, and the new thing I want changed is that IT mobs drop a lot more items when defeated. I really like the idea that people that need more items for their crafting get a huge bonus for partying with others as opposed to hunting solo much lower leveled mobs.

I want to know what Easy Prey and Incredibly Tough actually are. If you are EP to me I should be able to solo you. I can't stand that after you hit level 10 that gauge is completely wrong. I'd like to be able to solo and make maybe 200-500xp less per hour than a group getting XP. I'd like to see a lot less items drop as a result of me being alone, as well as being vulnerable.

I also likes WoW scalability with their experience system in that the higher level you achieve the more xp you get. Also they change their system so that the elite players must always get the most xp when more levels are added, but the players left behind can now easily get within the top 10 levels of the top because it takes less experience to achieve that. If you take a break from the game and come back, you do not feel overwhelmed. You still have to work getting the last 10 levels... but if you were level 60 and now there is level 80, it's so much easier to make it to level 70.



Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 5:13pm by brethartfan
#21 Jun 03 2009 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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The problem is in the end that there is only so much you can do even if the MMO is casualfriendly. In WoW for ex, the only thing you can do is like xp:ing, crafting in solo mode. You cant really do anything else. When you hit max level you still need to group, socialize, linkshell, todo all the other content. Some people think its hardcore Vs casual playstyle. To some degree it is but ultimatly even if SE makes it easy to solo level up to max, you will still get dead bored and quit FF14 if you dont socialize.


Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 5:08pm by Maldavian
#22 Jun 03 2009 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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brethartfan wrote:
I also likes WoW scalability with their experience system in that the higher level you achieve the more xp you get.
Or they could, you know, just cut down the amount needed to get that level.

200/kill to get 40k EXP is the same as 15,000/kill and working on 3,000,000 for your level - it takes 200 kills either way. (If anything, the latter one feels a bit more soul-crushing - "what do you mean, I need three million experience to get my next level?")

WoW goes for the latter method; FFXI went for the former method.
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#23 Jun 03 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
The problem is in the end that there is only so much you can do even if the MMO is casualfriendly. In WoW for ex, the only thing you can do is like xp:ing, crafting in solo mode. You cant really do anything else. When you hit max level you still need to group, socialize, linkshell, todo all the other content. Some people think its hardcore Vs casual playstyle. To some degree it is but ultimatly even if SE makes it easy to solo level up to max, you will still get dead bored and quit FF14 if you dont socialize.


I don't think anyone is opposed to the idea of forced grouping as a component of an MMO. I think what has been shown is that more players will stay happily occupied for longer if the forced grouping aspect only comprises a part of the game, not the majority of it. It's nice to know that you can log in and enjoy a game whether you can find a group in a reasonable amount of time or not.
#24 Jun 03 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll preface this by saying I'm playing WoW now, have been for...3 years? Give or take and I played FFXI for about that long, maybe a tad longer, before WoW. I haven't read all of this thread, no time! But about the first half.

I think the biggest thing SE can learn from the post WoW world is solo content and the difficulty of content. Almost -everything- in FFXI forces you to group up. Leveling, questing, the story, bosses, you name it. Pretty much the only thing you can do solo is craft and farm. Grouping is awesome, it's fun, it's productive, but it's forced on you too much in FFXI. A lone person needs to be able to accomplish more by themselves, including leveling. Grouping to level should still be an option, but not a requirement.

As for the difficulty of content, I really appreciated how in FFXI you really felt like you accomplished something when you downed a boss, or got a piece of endgame gear, but it was also terribly annoying going for months without ever getting an upgrade--nothing to show for your time. I'm all for keeping these objectives, but how about adding smaller accomplishments along the way? WoW has a tier system of objectives. You start out with easy objectives, simple rewards (quests, leveling), then moderate objectives with decent rewards (dungeons, battlegrounds, group quests), and then really hard objectives with really great rewards (raids, battlegrounds, arena, group quests). It could takes months to get to the last step, but those months are still filled with smaller achievements. You upgrade gear, learn the story, collect vanity items, improve your craft skills, and make money all while moving up the ladder.

In FFXI there is only one step. Really hard. This can stay, it's a great step, but it needs to be accompanied by its younger brothers.

That's all folks. /flee
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#25 Jun 03 2009 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Bind on Equip:
Say what you want about it, but people are missing one strong benefit to Bind on Equip gear...
It prevents the Chinese from ruling the economy. I remember FFXI 5 years ago and how you would never get a pair of lizzy boots or a kote unless you were a Chinese bot that would provoke claim the mob before it showed on the screen. Not to mention the bajillion fishing bots.

This in turned super inflated the economy to where, if you where just an average adventurer, you couldn't afford anything nice.
The rare/ex stuff, which is essentially the same, has greatly helped that in my opinion with the converts from the old pieces of gear to the new ones.

Faster combat:
This is my biggest promotion next to eliminating Play Online (which they've already said they are doing, yah!).

Half my forum post are made while autoattacking a mob and doing nothing else cause all my skills are on cooldowns. And I admit, I think it looks stupid to have your character stand idle for 4+ seconds after a swing.

I'm not taking the fluidity out of the combat...how fluid something is has nothing to do with speed. But give me something to do other then minimize. Not saying turn it into a spamfest where I have to hit button 2 or 3 every half a second to keep my dps up, but I want to continuously be thinking other then "well I need 80% TP before my next WS and all two of my combat abilities are on 5 minute cooldowns...forum time.'
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#26Squallido, Posted: Jun 03 2009 at 6:23 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) making some things less annoying? ok, learning from WOW? just no thanks.
#27 Jun 04 2009 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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I've played WoW about as long as I've played FF11 and a lot of my feelings have already been covered. But one, and that is crafting.

I love crafting in WoW. If you needed to make a lvl 10 item all you had to do was go to the lvl 10 area and farm lvl 10 mobs and then make your item. You couldn't fail but the downside was that you couldn't get a HQ version.

Where as in FF11 mats were insanely hard to get once you hit journeyman skill and there is an esoteric ceremony involving direction faced, moon phase, a small sacrifice to the correct developer...and that was just so it wouldn't break.

With WoW all of your recipes are kept in a neat little list in game so there was no frantic search on a website to figure out what you needed to make an item. I never did see a purpose behind all of the guess work with FF11's craft system.

Of course that was why WoW instituted bind on equip on items above common quality. But they also added the rare recipe drop. That recipe usually made an item that would be best in slot until you hit raids or gained 10 lvls. That was your HQ.

Between the two systems I would have to say WoW has the better one. It's less time consuming and FAR less heartbreaking. At least in WoW I don't have to watch 3 weeks (or more) of farming that ultra rare mat go up in smoke when the 100+3 crafter blows up the synth. Or spend months trying to craft that HQ best in slot only to end up with a pile of broken crystals and a half dozen NQ's that sell for a fraction of the material cost.
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#28 Jun 04 2009 at 5:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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As I think more about this, I can come up with 2 other things I'd like to see in FFXI that I appreciate in WoW (though these ones are not, necissarly, WoW specific)

1) Let us Jump! I'm sick of not being able to get over a pile of rubble because it comes up to my shins!

2) No more hidden stats! Why oh why can I see my attack power, but not my ranged attack power or magic attack power? Why is it such a sin to know what my accuracy rating really is and what % that equals? Why all the mystery over arbitrary stats?

They're little things, but they'd make me happy.
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#29 Jun 04 2009 at 9:39 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Bind on Equip:
Say what you want about it, but people are missing one strong benefit to Bind on Equip gear...
It prevents the Chinese from ruling the economy. I remember FFXI 5 years ago and how you would never get a pair of lizzy boots or a kote unless you were a Chinese bot that would provoke claim the mob before it showed on the screen. Not to mention the bajillion fishing bots.

This in turned super inflated the economy to where, if you where just an average adventurer, you couldn't afford anything nice.
The rare/ex stuff, which is essentially the same, has greatly helped that in my opinion with the converts from the old pieces of gear to the new ones.
I don't know what you're talking about with regards to Lizzy and the Ochuidos Kote. They were both very competitive, but still gettable, items.

Also, if you're just an average adventurer why should you have nice things? Why should you get some excellent piece of gear when you really didn't do anything for it? I played WoW a few months ago (starting over with some friends, none of whom played FFXI) and I leveled to 50 in 2 weeks without playing that often. I did no farming at all, I sold very little on any auction house, and I still had pretty decent gear for 50 because every instance has gear that's almost always bound to drop and is great. It really takes no effort. On the other hand there were some items (some purple dingers) that I didn't have. However, these seemed impossible to get, costing 1000's of Gold. I think NMs like Leaping Lizzy and that Yagudo crapper that evaded me oh so many times, are a nice middle ground. The gear is good and you feel like you've accomplished something once you've gotten it, but no one really expects you to have it.
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#30amdgsrt, Posted: Jun 04 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) SAY NO TO JUMPING
#31 Jun 04 2009 at 11:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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amdgsrt wrote:
SAY NO TO JUMPING

I tried out WoW on two different occasions, (once each of the last two years) and the part of gameplay that irritated me to no end was the plethora of bunnyhopping MFers. I see enough of this crap when I'm playing any online shooter (BF2 my current poison) forcing me to play with a NoobTube just to release my anger against these fools in a murder/suicide.

My solution though... SE started to get it right at the release of WoG where you can "teleport" up a broken staircase and such. To get it completely right they should just treat these obstacles in the same manner as you would open a door. Those obstacles are movement impediments... they should not be simply ignored by bunnyhopping over it and they shouldn't be treated as unpassable.


I actually love jumping in an MMO, and would really love SE to implement that. It gives a bit more flexibility to your character and a bit more fun factor.
#32 Jun 04 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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I'd probably say give us a real first person mode like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. The battle system can stay the same but I wanna see more than just the mob infront of me like a movie. Seeing your weapon drawn and swinging, shield moving up to block when you block, etc.
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#33 Jun 04 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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BrookieDragon wrote:
Bind on Equip:
Say what you want about it, but people are missing one strong benefit to Bind on Equip gear...
It prevents the Chinese from ruling the economy. I remember FFXI 5 years ago and how you would never get a pair of lizzy boots or a kote unless you were a Chinese bot that would provoke claim the mob before it showed on the screen. Not to mention the bajillion fishing bots.

This in turned super inflated the economy to where, if you where just an average adventurer, you couldn't afford anything nice.
The rare/ex stuff, which is essentially the same, has greatly helped that in my opinion with the converts from the old pieces of gear to the new ones.
This.

If you have sellable gear of that level, you need to take measures to make sure it's rare. This is why Leaping Boots and Emp Hairpin were such a pain to get. The Camping component pretty much favored RMT. To make matters even worse, you had either the boots (in this case) with incredible stats or a pair of boots with no stats or a bunch of useless elemental resistances. Alpha & Omega gear combined with the emphasis on rarity made things take a turn for the bad.

BoE at the very least did what so many people here wanted to see in FFXI: "good" gear leaving the economy, preventing saturation.

As for instancing, something like Fafnir having a 7-day lockout period after being killed by your shell's raid ID means it'd take a lot longer to gear up, making his drops even more rare than they already are. And it doesn't have to be a huge dungeon that takes 3 hours to clear before you get to the boss. Could be something relatively short like Obsidian Sanctum (6 trash pulls and the boss + 3 boss-level adds that join the fight). Still fairly hard, mind you.
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#34 Jun 04 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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My Top 10... some of these are what we need from WoW, some are things they just don't need from FFXI.

1. REAL AUGMENTS!!!
When I make an armor kit in WoW and apply it, I know what stat my favorite piece of gear is getting (and it isn't negative!)

2. The ability to jump and swim
I don't know of any real people who can fight dragons, swing massive weapons, and cast powerful spells that can't jump over a downed tree limb. Think of everything they could add if you could just swim.

3. The ability to solo, but still party in a group
Somebody mentioned this, and it's a great idea. Let me solo XP anywhere, anytime, but make it as 80% efficient as grouping.

4. Instanced Dungeons
This is actually #1 on my list, but it's so obvious I'm not going to elaborate.

5. More abilities
I love my DRG. I hate that I'm going from 60-75 with no new abilities. With most jobs (esp. in later levels) there are huge gaps where I'm getting nothing while the WHM is getting a new tier of Cure, or my BLM buddy is learning Ancient Magic.

6. No Subjobs
I hate NIN, but I have to level it for my THF, so I can use Sneak Attack on my DRG. Come on... I want to play DRG.

7. Easier Weapon skill/crafting points
Say I'm a level 60 DRK and my Scythe is capped, but I'm a noob and never leveled GS. Now I have to spend a year and a half swinging at things and getting 0.2 skillups now and then. In WoW, I can swing, miss, and get one full point. After a few mobs, my skill is good enough to where I can use it in real combat.

8. No more/less frequent World pops; instance them
Taking on Vrtra looks sweet, but those other 4 camps think so too. Oh well... maybe in three more days...

9. More variation in mobs.
Why does a Lesser Colibri, Colibri, and Greater Colibri all look the same? There is little variation in mob skins in FFXI. In WoW, at least they have different color patterns...

10. Mithra dancing in their underwear on top of mailboxes.
j/k



Edited, Jun 4th 2009 8:21pm by Tytrian - type-o's. (spelling errors, not blood types).

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 8:26pm by Tytrian
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#35 Jun 04 2009 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

4. Instanced Dungeons
This is actually #1 on my list, but it's so obvious I'm not going to elaborate.
Am I the only person that thinks instances are lame? It just doesn't make sense. Sure, it's more convenient for the players and such, but come on. People can't share? Your plans will shatter if someone wiped the dungeon before you? Part of the game is the idea that you're not the only one here. Yes, someone might want to kill the same monsters as you. I think BCNMs and the like are as close to instances as I'd like to see FFXIV go.

Quote:

8. No more/less frequent World pops; instance them
Taking on Vrtra looks sweet, but those other 4 camps think so too. Oh well... maybe in three more days...
Yes.. Vrtra is a pretty legendary NM. You think you should be able to fight more than one at once? By the way, I've seen Vrtra just sitting there by herself numerous times, but I get what you're saying. The whole idea of rare items is that they're rare. If you don't want to wait 3 days, you don't have to get the absolute best gear. There is a middle ground in FFXI. It's not like people look down on you for not having all Relic +1.


I'd like to see the opposing viewpoint, too. I genuinely care nothing about post rating, but if someone disagrees, I'm interested in what they have to say. Maybe you could change my mind? Silently disagreeing by rating down a post tells me you don't have any counter-argument, therefore mine (in my eyes) becomes more valid. I rather enjoy discussions, is all.

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 10:00pm by TheShadowWalker
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and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#36 Jun 04 2009 at 7:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
Quote:

4. Instanced Dungeons
This is actually #1 on my list, but it's so obvious I'm not going to elaborate.
Am I the only person that thinks instances are lame? It just doesn't make sense. Sure, it's more convenient for the players and such, but come on. People can't share? Your plans will shatter if someone wiped the dungeon before you? Part of the game is the idea that you're not the only one here. Yes, someone might want to kill the same monsters as you. I think BCNMs and the like are as close to instances as I'd like to see FFXIV go.


It comes down to a choice between making the content relatively accessible to all players and implementing a system where access to the content is so severely restricted that it leads to widespread resentment and even cheating (see also: claim botting).

Instanced content means that xp groups can go and have access to the same quantity of mobs as any other group without having to compete for claims on trash mobs and twiddle thumbs waiting for respawns. Instanced content means that your chance to get loot from named mobs is based on the ability of your group to fight and kill the mob, not on who has the ability with the shortest cast time coupled with the fastest "trigger" finger.

Instanced content means that you can have a much, much wider variety of monsters in a game that require a group to kill without making the "outside" world so hazardous that solo play becomes frustratingly tedious if not impossible. Instanced content means that you can create an area with a certain atmosphere and flow dynamic with a sense of continuity to it for players to experience to its full potential. There's no risk of other groups coming in and killing a mob here and a group of mobs there and leaving the place feeling empty when the developers really wanted to give you a sense that you were in some foreboding monster stronghold.

We can't really bring the concept of realism into the picture because there's nothing realistic about killing a giant named dragon only to have him magically reappear 3 game weeks later unscathed and ready for another round with the foolhardy adventurers who want his loot.

The primary fundamental benefit of instanced content is that it gives all players of a suitable level (or not, as the case may be with FFXIV) an opportunity to experience the content whether there are 50 groups that want a crack at it on a given night or just 1.
#37 Jun 04 2009 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
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Shadow,

I'm not sure I understand your beef with instances. It wouldn't matter if someone had wiped the dungeon; every time you enter, it resets. Each person/party gets their own copy. And IMO, I prefer my party having it's own instance and fighting a cool end boss as opposed to camping in one spot and pulling the same mobs for hours. I'm not saying I'd eliminate camps, I'd just like to see other variations on how to gain XP (assuming XP is even involved in FF14) and items.

Regarding world pops, AureliusSir said it perfectly near the top of the thread:

"If SE took a page from WoW's book, Nidhogg would be found in a raid dungeon. Most raid dungeons in WoW have a 7 day reset. It starts Tuesday morning. You can enter with your raid group and when you down a boss, you are saved to that instance. You can then enter that instance again and that boss will be dead and gone until the following Tuesday morning when the entire instance is reset. In other words...you can only kill a particular boss once/week."

That would let casual players (like me) have a chance to partake in some fights I'll never see in FFXI, due to RL time constraints, other's camping the same mob, etc.


I want to add one more thing to my list I think we can all agree on:
No more leveling down, ever, please?





Edited, Jun 4th 2009 11:52pm by Tytrian
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#38 Jun 04 2009 at 8:20 PM Rating: Default
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Interesting way of putting it. From my short experience in WoW, the lower level instances came down to: "Oh, you need this item? Alright let's run it." ...don't get it.."Let's run it again." And you just keep doing that until you get what you want and there is no real difficulty. If they had a level cap, I could see it working more, but that trudges into the BCNM territory and that's why I like BCNMs. You can't just keep doing them, you have to build up the tokens or whatever they're called.

WoW-esque instances wouldn't be so bad if it was for primarily XPing. I don't know.. I just don't think XPing, farming, and NM hunting should all go in the same, pretty easy, dungeon raid.


Quote:

I want to add one more thing to my list I think we can all agree on:
No more leveling down, ever, please?
Oh no! I think leveling down adds a huge amount of fun to FFXI and it would do the same with FFXIV. Now, they said it wouldn't be XP based, so they probably won't have it (unfortunately), but I always liked it. Playing in FFXI, I rarely saw people die. Or.. when people did die, they got ****** and the party shaped up. WoW on the other hand.. (just my experience), people die left and right and don't really give a ****. Instances with some parties was akin to bashing ones head against a door until it broke, instead of using the doorknob. They'd go in, suck, die, retry but not change anything. Not always of course, but I hated the idea with a passion. Not having any sort of leveling down means that if you play the game for X amount of time, no matter how much you suck, you will reach max level as long as you kill things on a regular basis.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#39 Jun 04 2009 at 8:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
Interesting way of putting it. From my short experience in WoW, the lower level instances came down to: "Oh, you need this item? Alright let's run it." ...don't get it.."Let's run it again." And you just keep doing that until you get what you want and there is no real difficulty. If they had a level cap, I could see it working more, but that trudges into the BCNM territory and that's why I like BCNMs. You can't just keep doing them, you have to build up the tokens or whatever they're called.


Tokens/triggers/whatever...time sinks. There's a difference between a challenge and a time sink. Not wanting to be mean guy here, but let's come to a clear understanding that just because you're willing to twiddle thumbs for hours camping NMs for triggers or compete for spawns on HNMs or exclude yourself from content while you accumulate low drop rate items that you have to gather in noteworthy numbers to trade for items that allow you to access the content doesn't mean you're doing anything more difficult...it means you're doing something more time consuming.

I'd rather challenge myself learning tricky boss mechanics or pushing the limits of my role in a group to allow the group to succeed than...**** around with time sinks so that I can feel like I accomplished something. The only challenge involved in waiting on a world-spawn mob to pop is not falling asleep at the keyboard when it decides to show up at 2:54 into a three hour window that I was there for when the window opened. Gathering beastmen seals wasn't a challenge...they dropped in the process of killing xp worthy mobs. If you had the desire and the patience and the unleveled jobs you could run out and solo from 1-10 and if you were lucky, you'd get 10-15 seals. Do that twice and you can enter a BCNM which may reward you like a prince or spew you with a mountain of vendor trash for your efforts. Bloody ridiculous.

Quote:
Oh no! I think leveling down adds a huge amount of fun to FFXI and it would do the same with FFXIV. Now, they said it wouldn't be XP based, so they probably won't have it (unfortunately), but I always liked it. Playing in FFXI, I rarely saw people die. Or.. when people did die, they got ****** and the party shaped up. WoW on the other hand.. (just my experience), people die left and right and don't really give a ****. Instances with some parties was akin to bashing ones head against a door until it broke, instead of using the doorknob. They'd go in, suck, die, retry but not change anything. Not always of course, but I hated the idea with a passion. Not having any sort of leveling down means that if you play the game for X amount of time, no matter how much you suck, you will reach max level as long as you kill things on a regular basis.


Not heavily penalizing players for dying means that you aren't discouraging them from taking risks. It means that you can tune content to a higher level of difficulty and diversity and not scare away a huge segment of the playerbase because it takes so long to recover the lost xp after a night of trying to learn a new boss fight that people don't want to go anymore. I'm not saying that failure without penalty should be the method used by SE in FFXIV, I'm saying that the penalty should be just barely steep enough to have players preferring to succeed, but not so steep that they have to spend 3-4 hours trying to recover their losses after a 2 hour wipefest on a new boss the night before. No xp loss on death means that players can go out and explore in dangerous areas and if they die along the way, they might lose a bit of travel time and durability on gear (if FFXIV employs durability at all) but they don't have to spend more time paying for their failure than they did in the process of failing.
#40 Jun 04 2009 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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If SE takes one thing from WoW, let it be transparency. WoW players know exactly how stats work in WoW because the devs told them. They know what to expect from updates for the same reason.

On the same note, more and better communication, please. The recent debuff resistance debacle in FFXI is a perfect example of how not to run an MMO. It was an honest mistake on SE's part, but nobody knew if it was a mistake or intentional because SE waited a week before even acknowledging that anything had changed. Blizzard would have had a statement out within an hour.

As for the auction: Overall, WoW has the better auction system IMO. If nothing else, I can chose who I want to buy from. Everyone who played FFXI and used the AH was sending money to gilsellers by buying shihei, and they could have avoided that if they so chose by avoiding the obvious gilseller names. Also, it was an actual auction, even if people normally do just hit buyout. However, WoW is missing something I consider vitally important to an MMO: bazaars! Being able to set up your own little shop was a great part of FFXI, and I hope it's in FFXIV as well.
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#41 Jun 04 2009 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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Things I liked in WoW.

The 3rd axis that added height. Just added to the games depth.

Instance dungeon. Made it easier for certain things so people don't fight over mobs. FFXI used this system later on in ToAU

Using Honor Points to buy armor and weapons. SE adapted this to FFXI well with assault.

Dropped recipes added made craft some items more rare and worth more.

Know stats. Nuff said.

Things I hated in WoW.

Solo, solo, solo play. Solo play is fine from time to time but don't all the time. I never understood the bottom on paying to play online but choosing to play by yourself. This reason I did solo is because it was grouping with alot of people to do xp quest took longer and ultimately killed your xp per hour. I would like to see PTing be the primary form of xping and story progession with elements of solo when you only have little time to dedicate to the game.

Instance dungeon. This can be a bad thing because nobody is going to be able to help you out. I can't count the number of time someone passing by has raised me, cured me, or general helped me out in FFXI. It's nice to see that kind of interaction. I think FFXI does a fine job with instance for only certain events and boss fights.

Dropped armor that is better than crafted. kinda of kills the crafting system.

Auction House. Its cool that it mimicks things like ebay but I have been undercut so many times it makes you want to pull your hair out. Times I wish the buyout price was hidden like FFXI so would bid at the base line.

And I hate Parser in both systems. Just breeds elitism and epeens.
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#42 Jun 04 2009 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
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Eh, I wanted to type up a huge rant about how bad WoWs community is and how most of the aspects of the game attract those kinds of players but I'll skip it and write about the parts of WoW I actually liked.

1) Character customization: Whats better than a SAM? A SAM with multiple unique and viable play styles! WoWs skill tree is a great example of how this can be achieved.

2) Instanced dungeons: Fun group oriented zones that give out useful equipment as rewards and help to break up the tedium of grinding.

3) Fast(er) traveling: I still cringe thinking about the 20 minute waits for an airship or boat and all the swearing I did if I saw it departing when I reached the dock. I've got mixed emotions about the rides though. A scenic airship cruise or fishing off the side of the boat was actually fun.... sometimes.

4) Questing: quests in WoW were the slightly more fun, slightly less monotonous alternative to grinding. They also game good rewards.

#43 Jun 04 2009 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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572 posts
AureliusSir wrote:

Tokens/triggers/whatever...time sinks. There's a difference between a challenge and a time sink. Not wanting to be mean guy here, but let's come to a clear understanding that just because you're willing to twiddle thumbs for hours camping NMs for triggers or compete for spawns on HNMs or exclude yourself from content while you accumulate low drop rate items that you have to gather in noteworthy numbers to trade for items that allow you to access the content doesn't mean you're doing anything more difficult...it means you're doing something more time consuming.


Again this is what differentiates FFXI apart from WoW casual "Joe" play style. The time sinks are there for a reason, as to NOT get that uber item in 1 week, not make 99,99% of the population in a MMO running around in MAXED gear, rather the gear you have, if it’s really hard to get worthwhile once you have it and you feel very special. In WoW there is nothing that stands out. All gear will get rested every 6 months and there is no working towards a goal for long periods of time (relics in FFXI). This is the difference between a hardcore and a causal MMO, time sinks will ALWAYS be a part of a hardcore MMO.

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I'd rather challenge myself learning tricky boss mechanics or pushing the limits of my role in a group to allow the group to succeed than...**** around with time sinks so that I can feel like I accomplished something. The only challenge involved in waiting on a world-spawn mob to pop is not falling asleep at the keyboard when it decides to show up at 2:54 into a three hour window that I was there for when the window opened. Gathering beastmen seals wasn't a challenge...they dropped in the process of killing xp worthy mobs. If you had the desire and the patience and the unleveled jobs you could run out and solo from 1-10 and if you were lucky, you'd get 10-15 seals. Do that twice and you can enter a BCNM which may reward you like a prince or spew you with a mountain of vendor trash for your efforts. Bloody ridiculous.


So you want to learn a tricky boss? How hard is it to learn a tricky boss? A few tries and that’s it. And if you are "Joe" standard player you don’t even try you just wait for the top guilds to release a movie and then copy the strategy. Get real son. Also once again, you gear will get useless after 6 months, what’s the point in getting gear at all if you need to replace it after such a short time ?

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Not heavily penalizing players for dying means that you aren't discouraging them from taking risks. It means that you can tune content to a higher level of difficulty and diversity and not scare away a huge segment of the playerbase because it takes so long to recover the lost xp after a night of trying to learn a new boss fight that people don't want to go anymore. I'm not saying that failure without penalty should be the method used by SE in FFXIV, I'm saying that the penalty should be just barely steep enough to have players preferring to succeed, but not so steep that they have to spend 3-4 hours trying to recover their losses after a 2 hour wipefest on a new boss the night before. No xp loss on death means that players can go out and explore in dangerous areas and if they die along the way, they might lose a bit of travel time and durability on gear (if FFXIV employs durability at all) but they don't have to spend more time paying for their failure than they did in the process of failing.


WoW has repair cost, and FFXI XP. Which of the 2 systems are better? Seems like SE went with the XP loss. It’s a matter of taste and time wise makes no different, because you still need to farm the gold for the repair if you die too much. Oh wait you mean you can get around that in WoW by buying gold for real money? Indeed, nice way to support RMT Blizzard, on the contrary XP loss can’t be bought with real money but threw a learning curve. And don’t worry if you don’t have XP, you might still loose something like skill points if you die, so not a problem there. If you are in a party where you have a wipe feast then something is obviously wrong, disband and look for another instead of wiping endlessly. There have never been any areas as dangerous as you describe in FFXI where me and my party have wiped endlessly. I don’t know where you are getting that from. If you are a bad player, sure you will get panelized for it and if you are a good player you don’t suffer the consequences. The bad player will eventually learn and become a good player, that’s pretty natural. If the bad player doesn’t learn, he will never level/skill up and quits the game.


Edited, Jun 5th 2009 2:52am by Maldavian
#44 Jun 04 2009 at 11:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would like to see FFIV learn from WOW in how it allowed for gamers to progress at their own pace.

I think everyone hated the 24 hour camps (or more) from FFXI, and the raid lockout timer in wow seemed much more fair, you still just get one shot a week at the item you want, you just get to do it on your own schedule.

The interface from wow with hot buttons etc I hope are not incorporated into FFIV, I like the menu system (as clunky as some mouse clickers find it) and I found it to be quite intuitive with a controller in hand. I still think I can get my macros off with a Ps2 controller faster than I can hit hotkeys with a keyboard in wow. But that is just preference.

I also like the idea of experience from quests, I mean, you just did something, which sometimes involves no combat... does that mean you didn't learn anything from it as a character? I like the gold system in wow as well (although I would far prefer it to be called gil lol), simply because it was much easier to obtain than gil in FFXI if you were working towards it.

Daily quests are also a favorite of mine. Find a task that you really enjoy doing (even if most your server finds it horrid) and you can do it every day just to keep on getting some pocket money.
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#45 Jun 04 2009 at 11:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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dyvidd wrote:
Solo, solo, solo play. Solo play is fine from time to time but don't all the time. I never understood the bottom on paying to play online but choosing to play by yourself. This reason I did solo is because it was grouping with alot of people to do xp quest took longer and ultimately killed your xp per hour. I would like to see PTing be the primary form of xping and story progession with elements of solo when you only have little time to dedicate to the game.


Ever wonder why SE made it so that beyond a certain point you pretty much had to group for XP? Part of it was game design by choice, and part of it was hardware limitations both on SE's end and on the PS2. Instanced content was an under-utilized concept when FFXI went live in Japan and it requires a significant amount of extra server hardware to handle the load of multiple simultaneous instances. SE didn't have the server hardware to handle enough load to run multiple instances in a variety of different zones to suit different level ranges (Dynamis was proof of that) which meant they had to put mobs that were difficult enough to pose a challenge to a group in the "outside" world in sufficient numbers to keep the groups happy. You can't have mobs that solo players can kill for xp in the same zones that groups rely on for xp as well otherwise you go through the limited supply of mobs that much faster. So if you can't support solo and group play in an MMO, where do you focus your efforst?

That's right. Group play.

Not because group play should be the only option. Not because group play all the time was a reasonable expectation. FFXI came on the scene when producing an MMO was still something of a gamble because up to that point, it only held a small niche market under the grand umbrella of video games and SE chose to go on the conservative side in developing an MMO that could be run on what they were prepared to invest in server hardware. Then Blizzard showed up on the scene and went bawls out and showed the gaming world what was possible if you're willing to front the $$$ and appeal to a broad spectrum of players by offering a wide array of options that suit a myriad of interests and preferences.

Blizzard demonstrated that there are lots of ways to create incentives for group play without making players feel like solo play wasn't worth it, and guess what? The players responded by demonstrating just how welcome an addition viable solo play in an MMO really was. You can't fault the developer for giving players what they want...that's backwards lunacy of the highest order. Group play in WoW has never been so popular as it is today and players are drinking it up because it's just another option that they enjoy as part of the overall experience and if they don't feel like grouping for any reason, they can still log in and play the game they pay to play.

I'm not sure how you could find fault with that, but I'm fairly sure you'll try.

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Instance dungeon. This can be a bad thing because nobody is going to be able to help you out. I can't count the number of time someone passing by has raised me, cured me, or general helped me out in FFXI. It's nice to see that kind of interaction. I think FFXI does a fine job with instance for only certain events and boss fights.


You're thinking from the narrow view of FFXI where a death without a rez means a trip back to your home point. Implemented properly, it's not necessary to boot you halfway across the world if you wipe in a dungeon. Most games with instanced content just punt you outside to rez so that you can quickly recover and head back in.

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Dropped armor that is better than crafted. kinda of kills the crafting system.


Are you kidding me? That is by no means in any way, shape, or form something exclusive to WoW. Give. Me. A. Break.

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Auction House. Its cool that it mimicks things like ebay but I have been undercut so many times it makes you want to pull your hair out. Times I wish the buyout price was hidden like FFXI so would bid at the base line.


Ya, because nobody in FFXI ever hugely underbid the sales history trying to snag a deal by catching the guy who listed way low so their stuff would sell first. Get real.
#46 Jun 04 2009 at 11:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maldavian wrote:

Again this is what differentiates FFXI apart from WoW casual "Joe" play style. The time sinks are there for a reason, as to NOT get that uber item in 1 week, not make 99,99% of the population in a MMO running around in MAXED gear, rather the gear you have, if it’s really hard to get worthwhile once you have it and you feel very special. In WoW there is nothing that stands out. All gear will get rested every 6 months and there is no working towards a goal for long periods of time (relics in FFXI). This is the difference between a hardcore and a causal MMO, time sinks will ALWAYS be a part of a hardcore MMO.


It's kinda funny, because after all these years and all the MMOs developed and released since FFXI, there's still that stubborn group of players who thinks it's better to reward players for wasting time than it is to reward them for skill. Skill is what gets your group their first kill of a certain boss. Dedication and commitment to the team is what gets them their 20th kill. Not knowing any better and thinking they're demonstrating something noteworthy (or worthy of a fantastic reward) is what gets them their 200th kill (with only 50 to go!), despite the fact that they were bored ******** with the content at about kill #15.

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So you want to learn a tricky boss? How hard is it to learn a tricky boss? A few tries and that’s it. And if you are "Joe" standard player you don’t even try you just wait for the top guilds to release a movie and then copy the strategy. Get real son. Also once again, you gear will get useless after 6 months, what’s the point in getting gear at all if you need to replace it after such a short time ?


You have no idea what you're talking about, so I'll offer you an example. The #1 raiding guild for my faction on the WoW realm I was on before I stopped playing in early March spent two weeks, 4-5 nights/week for 4-6 hours/night trying to down a single raid boss in the hardest of the three hard-mode configurations for that boss before they finally cleared it one night after 14 attempts over the course of 6 hours. That guild is in the top 10% of raiding guilds worldwide. Few tries for a tricky boss? Pffffffffffffffffft.

Also, as to your second point in that paragraph, I'll let you in on a little secret.

Something that WoW and FFXI share in common is that different pieces of gear augment the stats and attributes of the character wearing that gear. Are you with me so far?

kk good...it gets better...

In both WoW and FFXI, if you increase your stats and attributes, it usually has a positive impact on your performance in combat, right? I mean like...if you're dps you can do more damage because you land more hits or you hit harder or your spells are resisted less and hit for more damage, right? Or if you're a tank you end up with more HP which means you can take more damage and maybe you get more defense so that each hit you take does less damage to you so you...you know...live longer. Stuff like that, ya know?

I haven't lost you yet, have I? No? kk good...we're getting to the good stuff...

So let's say you're a newer player fresh to the level cap in an LS full of players just like you and you want to get into the end-game scene so you decide to start with something fairly easy like Roc or Simurgh or something, right? So you tap your resources and you get a spawn timer and you and your LS head out to camp the spawn and huzzah! You arrive to find that yours is the only group camping. (teehee...lucky break!)

<queue intermission music...really long intermission music>

Ooo! Ooo! It popped and you're still the only ones there! Weee!! So you fight...and you fight...and you fight. It was tough, but you've got a good crew and you score the win! Yaaaaaay! Weeeeeeee! Huzzaaaahh!! 3 hour wait for a 30 minute fight but wooooooeeeeeee that was fun! Everyone is all excited, taru /panic dances all over the place. Victory is yours!

Then someone pipes up with enthusiastic glee and says they can't wait to fight Vrtra someday! YES!! Brilliant idea! Except woah..hold on...we just barely eeked by on an entry-level end-game mini-boss kinda thing. We're all at the level cap, so what can we do to get ready for Vrtra?

"We can merit for hours upon hours and days upon days!"

Fantastic idea, taru buddy! What else can we do?

"We can get better gear!"

Brilliant, madam Mithra! Abso-friggin'-lutely brilliant! Where should we start? Sky? YA! Let's start working on farming triggers in Sky! We're on our way! Yahoooooooooooooo! Watch out Vrtra! Here we come!

(I know it's been a few paragraphs since I checked, but are ya still with me? I'd hate to think I confused you somewhere in there. If I have, maybe go back and read it again...I think it's pretty clear up to this point. I'll wait.)

kk...got it now? good...we're getting to the best part...but shhh...remember...it's a secret...

So like...even though there's some status to be had from higher end gear, it also serves a practical purpose, right? The same sort of formula that has existed in RPGs since pre-D&D...you fight the monsters and develop your characters so that you can fight harder monsters and continue developing your characters so that you can fight harder monsters and...you get the idea, right? After years of adventuring you're not still just peasant Bob with a well worn (but sharp!) stick trying to take on a dragon. You've grown, you've developed, you've enhanced your skills and abilities. You've progressed.

Know what I mean?

EXCELLENT!! MAYBE NOW YOU'LL UNDERSTAND AND YOU AND YOUR FUNDAMENTALIST COMPADRES CAN STOP ARGUING THE FUNDAMENTALLY RETARDED IDEA THAT THE ONLY REASON TO GET THE GEAR IS TO BE ABLE TO SAY YOU GOT THE GEAR!!

If you play to experience the content...you know, if you PLAY TO PLAY, the idea of replacing gear when the next tier of content comes along is nothing to snivel about whatsoever. You upgrade the gear in the process of running the content as part of your overall character development so that you can take on greater challenges that would demolish less accomplished players.

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WoW has repair cost, and FFXI XP. Which of the 2 systems are better? Seems like SE went with the XP loss. It’s a matter of taste and time wise makes no different, because you still need to farm the gold for the repair if you die too much.


Oh, it's a huge difference. For starters, you don't delevel if your gear breaks. Repair costs can add up but a full break (10 deaths from 100% assuming minimal durability loss from other sources) on epic level 80 plate gear (the most expensive to repair) cost me about as much as I could recover in 10-15 minutes worth of daily quests or farming. Ya, I know. Takes longer to break the gear than it does to earn the gold to pay for the repairs. What kind of messed up design philosophy is that?

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Oh wait you mean you can get around that in WoW by buying gold for real money?


If you're the kind of guy who needs to buy gold to cover your repair bills in a game like WoW because you can't earn the gold yourself you belong in a home, not in front of a computer. Suck less and you won't bankrupt yourself on repairs is the general motto.

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If you are in a party where you have a wipe feast then something is obviously wrong, disband and look for another instead of wiping endlessly. There have never been any areas as dangerous as you describe in FFXI where me and my party have wiped endlessly. I don’t know where you are getting that from. If you are a bad player, sure you will get panelized for it and if you are a good player you don’t suffer the consequences. The bad player will eventually learn and become a good player, that’s pretty natural. If the bad player doesn’t learn, he will never level/skill up and quits the game.


I wasn't referring to dying in an xp party (although anyone who has played FFXI for any length of time likely has at least one story about how they joined an xp party for an hour and walked away with less xp than when they started.) I was referring to wiping on challenging content. You know...like bosses and stuff. REAL challenging stuff...not just the enormous challenge of waiting around. Of course, I'm talking from the perspective of both a former FFXI and WoW player, but with my most recent experience having been in WoW where if you gather in a large group for four hours of end-game content, you usually spend the majority of that that 4 hours you know...fighting stuff...where deaths vs. challenging mobs are not uncommon. I appreciate that in FFXI, 3 of those 4 hours can easily be spent doing absolutely nothing waiting for something to happen so ya, obviously if you find a way to die while doing nothing there's something wrong. I understand.
#47 Jun 05 2009 at 12:27 AM Rating: Decent
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If SE takes one thing from WoW, let it be transparency. WoW players know exactly how stats work in WoW because the devs told them. They know what to expect from updates for the same reason.


I will have to partially disagree with this suggestion. Transparency is boring. SE shouldn't tell us how exactly stats/abilities work or any other kind of calculations for that matter. Leave it up for community to figure them out. Just as well as how events work and how monsters are killed. That will create a good community.

However, some things can be changed. We should know more stats than Attack Defense and elemental resistances. Accuracy/Ranged accuracy, Evasion, Critical hit rate.. those kind of things should be known. But how they affect the gameplay shouldn't be told us by SE. Just show them to us and we'll figure out the rest.

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#48 Jun 05 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Default
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I'll stick with FFXI if the combat system in FFXIV is like WoW's.


same here. i hate that "klick mob to death" combat style that is used in wow and most other mmos. it feels so... gimp. just gimp.

if combat in FFXIV is going to work like that as well then i'm definitively not going to play it.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 5:04am by yrr
#49 Jun 05 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
The bad player will eventually learn and become a good player, that’s pretty natural. If the bad player doesn’t learn, he will never level/skill up and quits the game.


Bad players might not have the time/drive/ability to become good players. Thing is that bad players make up the largest chunk of gamers. You know, the potential market they are trying to reach. If a developer thinks that players who aren't skilled enough for the content he designed should quit the game, he probably won't get to be developer for long (thankfully, very rarely developers have the same mindset as hardcore players).

So, if you want to make FFXIV successful, and not simply a game for the small hardcore sector among them, you have to give them content, too.

I am not saying that the whole game should be like that: you have to be able to satisfy all your potential customers. Make softcore and hardcore content. Keep happy as many players as you can, entertained and busy for as long as you can. And allow them all to feel successful (we, bad players, don't need much to feel accomplished; just seeing our character grow and get good-looking armor, or beating missions that are a challenge to us).
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#50 Jun 05 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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yrr wrote:
Quote:
I'll stick with FFXI if the combat system in FFXIV is like WoW's.


same here. i hate that "klick mob to death" combat style that is used in wow and most other mmos. if combat in FFXIV is going to work like that as well then i'm definitively not going to play it.


Skilled WoW players heavily frown upon clickers. Just sayin'.
#51yrr, Posted: Jun 05 2009 at 1:05 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol. nice joke ;P
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