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Learning from WoWFollow

#52 Jun 05 2009 at 1:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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jotabe wrote:
Make softcore and hardcore content.


Yes.






Yes.





Oh...you mean skill and commitment. My bad.

SO, so my bad.

Carry on...

<.<
#53 Jun 05 2009 at 1:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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yrr wrote:
Quote:
Skilled WoW players...


lol. nice joke ;P


Just...not even going to go there. Can we try to limit this thread to one can of worms every 2-3 days please?
#54yrr, Posted: Jun 05 2009 at 1:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i meant serious. in wow it's gear > skill. and as far as i read on forums it hasn't changed since i stopped with wow.
#55 Jun 05 2009 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
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yrr wrote:
i meant serious. in wow it's gear > skill. and as far as i read on forums it hasn't changed since i stopped with wow.

one thing that really disappointed me when playing wow again after the introduction of bc was that no matter if you're skilled and have a good knowledge of how your class works if you try to fight someone in pvp who is better geared than you you will lose the battle with very high certainty. i didn't like that for it really hasn't much to do with skill.


You don't know what you're talking about. My half-blue hunter has been known to kill people wearing Arena epics and out-dps people in full raid epics.

Is this common? Nope, but it happens. And let's not pretend that an AH WAR will ever out-dps one with a full Salvage set.

My theory is that you just suck at PvP. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but don't pretend that it was just gear holding you down.
____________________________
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WoW - Somed Hunter Uther (retired)

Graspee wrote:
"Sage". Haha. Yeah, right.
#56yrr, Posted: Jun 05 2009 at 2:12 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) my statement was "high certainty that you'll lose".
#57 Jun 05 2009 at 2:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, no, my main disagreement is that there's a big difference in the effects of skill and gear in either game. In both, you have similar situations. If you have two equally geared and skilled characters, they will perform similarly. If they have equal skill but one outgears the other, the better gear will prevail. If they have equal gear, the more skilled player will usually prevail. If a window-licker with spectacular gear goes up against a skilled player with average gear, the skilled player will win.

It's probably fair to say that the gear disparities in WoW can be larger, but that is offset by the fact that good gear is easier to come by. Someone wearing quest greens in WoW will likely by torn apart in BGs, but he'll be wearing blues and purples before too long.

We should be clear about what constitutes "skill" in an MMO. In this context, skill is really knowledge and tactics. It's a measure of how well a player knows their own abilities and limitations, as well as those of their opponents, whether PC or mob. To say that WoW doesn't have that, but FFXI does, is absurd.

As a Hunter in PvP, I know that as long as I can keep that Warrior more than 25 yards away, he can't touch me. How do I use my abilities to prevent him from closing in? That's skill. In Pve, if I'm fighting Kel'Thuzad, I know that during phase 2 I have to stay at least 10 yards away from anyone else, and be ready to move out of his red ring of death, while maintaining an optimal shot rotation for maximum damage output.

As an RDM in FFXI, in ballista, I know that I have to strip shadows before I can do damage, but my only native means of eliminating them all, diaga, will prevent me from sleeping them. What's my best option for getting the kill, play defensively and take shadows one by one, or strip them all at once and try to zerg? That's skill. In Pve, I know that I must stay on that wyrm's front toes, but when things go sour should I delay my buff rotation for emergency heals, or should I let a dps go down so I can keep the tank hasted?

Honestly, I don't see a big difference.

Edited for spelling

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 5:58am by MrSenethSomed
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WoW - Somed Hunter Uther (retired)

Graspee wrote:
"Sage". Haha. Yeah, right.
#58 Jun 05 2009 at 3:12 AM Rating: Good
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I want jumping and swimming too. Good idea.
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#59 Jun 05 2009 at 5:00 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:

Also, as to your second point in that paragraph, I'll let you in on a little secret.


Sure go ahead.

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Something that WoW and FFXI share in common is that different pieces of gear augment the stats and attributes of the character wearing that gear. Are you with me so far?


I guess, go on.

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kk good...it gets better...

In both WoW and FFXI, if you increase your stats and attributes, it usually has a positive impact on your performance in combat, right? I mean like...if you're dps you can do more damage because you land more hits or you hit harder or your spells are resisted less and hit for more damage, right? Or if you're a tank you end up with more HP which means you can take more damage and maybe you get more defense so that each hit you take does less damage to you so you...you know...live longer. Stuff like that, ya know?


I think so, go on Master Yoda.

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I haven't lost you yet, have I?


No don't worry Master Yoda, please go on.

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No? kk good...we're getting to the good stuff...

So let's say you're a newer player fresh to the level cap in an LS full of players just like you and you want to get into the end-game scene so you decide to start with something fairly easy like Roc or Simurgh or something, right? So you tap your resources and you get a spawn timer and you and your LS head out to camp the spawn and huzzah! You arrive to find that yours is the only group camping. (teehee...lucky break!)


Go on Master Yoda.

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Ooo! Ooo! It popped and you're still the only ones there! Weee!! So you fight...and you fight...and you fight. It was tough, but you've got a good crew and you score the win! Yaaaaaay! Weeeeeeee! Huzzaaaahh!! 3 hour wait for a 30 minute fight but wooooooeeeeeee that was fun! Everyone is all excited, taru /panic dances all over the place. Victory is yours!


Ah you bashing the outdoor bosses in FFXI? Don’t worry Master Yoda, there are a lots and lots of other high end activities in FFXI that you don’t need to camp for.

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Then someone pipes up with enthusiastic glee and says they can't wait to fight Vrtra someday! YES!! Brilliant idea! Except woah..hold on...we just barely eeked by on an entry-level end-game mini-boss kinda thing. We're all at the level cap, so what can we do to get ready for Vrtra?

"We can merit for hours upon hours and days upon days!"


Master Yoda I have a news flash for you, its called a hardcore MMO with grind beeing part of the game.

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Fantastic idea, taru buddy! What else can we do?

"We can get better gear!"

Brilliant, madam Mithra! Abso-friggin'-lutely brilliant! Where should we start? Sky? YA! Let's start working on farming triggers in Sky! We're on our way! Yahoooooooooooooo! Watch out Vrtra! Here we come!


You seem to take a real liking for Vrtra are you Master Yoda? ^^

Quote:
(I know it's been a few paragraphs since I checked, but are ya still with me? I'd hate to think I confused you somewhere in there. If I have, maybe go back and read it again...I think it's pretty clear up to this point. I'll wait.)


I still don’t get your point, but keep going.

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kk...got it now? good...we're getting to the best part...but shhh...remember...it's a secret...


..... get to the point please ....

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So like...even though there's some status to be had from higher end gear, it also serves a practical purpose, right? The same sort of formula that has existed in RPGs since pre-D&D...you fight the monsters and develop your characters so that you can fight harder monsters and continue developing your characters so that you can fight harder monsters and...you get the idea, right? After years of adventuring you're not still just peasant Bob with a well worn (but sharp!) stick trying to take on a dragon. You've grown, you've developed, you've enhanced your skills and abilities. You've progressed.


That is your way to see progression, but not according to FFXI, again there are different types of progression. All the drabble you lined up was saying basically do it WoW style progression, and yet again no thanks.

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Know what I mean?


A WoW copy.

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EXCELLENT!! MAYBE NOW YOU'LL UNDERSTAND AND YOU AND YOUR FUNDAMENTALIST COMPADRES CAN STOP ARGUING THE FUNDAMENTALLY RETARDED IDEA THAT THE ONLY REASON TO GET THE GEAR IS TO BE ABLE TO SAY YOU GOT THE GEAR!!


Again that is the reason, in if you don’t like how things are, you can play WoW, that suits your taste better.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 9:29am by Maldavian
#60 Jun 05 2009 at 5:06 AM Rating: Default
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If you play to experience the content...you know, if you PLAY TO PLAY, the idea of replacing gear when the next tier of content comes along is nothing to snivel about whatsoever. You upgrade the gear in the process of running the content as part of your overall character development so that you can take on greater challenges that would demolish less accomplished players.


Again wrong, you once again refer to how WoW is and that progress should always be associated with replacing gear, sorry to crush your little dream but not all MMO:s work like that and once again in all your posts you are trying to say how FF14 should mimic Wow’s game system, and you are failing terribly to convince me.

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Oh, it's a huge difference. For starters, you don't delevel if your gear breaks.


Hmm I wonder how many times I need to die to get deleveled. In the timeperiod I played FFXI I have never seen anyone delevel, good or bad players, so again you are assuming that someone is constantly dying over and over and over again. I don’t really get how you play if you die 100000000000 times over again to get deleveled from 75 to 1. The reason why FFXI has that is to make it more of a hardcore game, and since it’s a hardcore game the penalty is severe.

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Repair costs can add up but a full break (10 deaths from 100% assuming minimal durability loss from other sources) on epic level 80 plate gear (the most expensive to repair) cost me about as much as I could recover in 10-15 minutes worth of daily quests or farming. Ya, I know. Takes longer to break the gear than it does to earn the gold to pay for the repairs. What kind of messed up design philosophy is that?


Its not a messed up philosophy, it's a philosophy of someone who wants its MMO to be casual, whilst FFXI wants it hardcore,, but go on.,,

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I wasn't referring to dying in an xp party (although anyone who has played FFXI for any length of time likely has at least one story about how they joined an xp party for an hour and walked away with less xp than when they started.) I was referring to wiping on challenging content. You know...like bosses and stuff. REAL challenging stuff...not just the enormous challenge of waiting around. Of course, I'm talking from the perspective of both a former FFXI and WoW player, but with my most recent experience having been in WoW where if you gather in a large group for four hours of end-game content, you usually spend the majority of that that 4 hours you know...fighting stuff...where deaths vs. challenging mobs are not uncommon. I appreciate that in FFXI, 3 of those 4 hours can easily be spent doing absolutely nothing waiting for something to happen so ya, obviously if you find a way to die while doing nothing there's something wrong. I understand.


I have not come across any event in FFXI that would lead to that I died so much. And if I did, then you make a small xp party after the raid and get your xp back, that’s how FFXI works and IMO works fine.

Again to sum it up, you still strive for thinking that FF14 should adapt crucial parts of WoW and its casual game system. And unfortunately for you I’m not buying it.


Edited, Jun 5th 2009 9:29am by Maldavian
#61 Jun 05 2009 at 6:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Ever wonder why SE made it so that beyond a certain point you pretty much had to group for XP? Part of it was game design by choice, and part of it was hardware limitations both on SE's end and on the PS2.


LMAO. FFXI was designed based on the concept of teamwork. That is the only reason. Respawn times have nothing to do with PS2 Limits nor do monster level. Even when ffxi first came out it had jobs that could solo to 75. Don't even how instances would even play a factor into the group equation for xping but whatever.

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Blizzard demonstrated that there are lots of ways to create incentives for group play without making players feel like solo play wasn't worth it, and guess what? The players responded by demonstrating just how welcome an addition viable solo play in an MMO really was. You can't fault the developer for giving players what they want...that's backwards lunacy of the highest order. Group play in WoW has never been so popular as it is today and players are drinking it up because it's just another option that they enjoy as part of the overall experience and if they don't feel like grouping for any reason, they can still log in and play the game they pay to play.


The subject of this post is learning from WoW, even their mistakes believe or not. Honestly I don't know what WoW your playing because the one I just quit last month after two years of play didn't have a good group play. It was join an instance group or don't group till end game. Sure they had group quest but that was more pain to complete than just skipping it and keep soloing.

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Are you kidding me? That is by no means in any way, shape, or form something exclusive to WoW. Give. Me. A. Break.
Again, post is called learning from WoW. WoW started the green, blue, purple, etc gear drop from random mobs and other games picked it up. The also made those greens and blue in most cases better than what is crafted at that level. As someone who tried his had at crafting I found it easier to craft armor for myself than to craft armor and sell it on the AH. Reason being is because the stuff never sells on the AH. People have decent armor from drops already. Only at end game levels does crafted armors come into play.

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Ya, because nobody in FFXI ever hugely underbid the sales history trying to snag a deal by catching the guy who listed way low so their stuff would sell first. Get real.
I am keeping it real. FFXI a player looks at what the last 7 bids are and sells their item for 2k gil less. Another player looks at the AH and see the last seven bids are 8k and makes a bid for 7.5k, sold.

WoW a players looks at the AH see the item he wants to sell with all the buyout prices listed. He then sells his item for 20g less, undercutting everyone else. Another player looks at all the buyout price, finds the cheapest one and buys it.

The difference is called visible and invisible undercutting. I prefer invisible because I've been undercut less using that system. I'm hoping FFXIV has a completely new system than what WoW or FFXI does.
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#62 Jun 05 2009 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
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Actually the nature of having instanced dungeons in wow resulted in a more negative experience for me. I would much more prefer basing FFXIV around large scale non instanced PVE battles like campaign or simple super fast paced merit party than running the exact same instance over and over again.

Instanced dungeons create an environment where it becomes more like watching the same movie over and over again. to me, oddly enough, that resulted in far more noticeable repetition than killing 300 pink birds.

It was odd to me because the grind I felt was far more noticeable when I couldnt just "get in the zone" and was forced to remember and explain every cheap and silly gimmick every boss would have. Continuously Running through heavily pre-scripted events as a means of progression felt far more repetitious in all the wrong ways when compared to getting a decent 6 man and a few merits in a couple hours simply because the process was less involved. It was like watching a movie vs playing serious sam. Go kill lots of stuff vs painstakingly navigate a maze with random rules....

Thus I would like to suggest that WoW style instances should be utilized more for the games missions where you beat them once and move on to the next. BCNM ENM KSNM ISNM worked really well in this respect because it was only one boss fight so they felt far more streamlined imho.

I also did not like how in WoW pretty much ALL responsibility was placed on the tank and every pull consisted of large numbers of monsters. When in reality a game based around FFXI should involve fewer monsters but more strategic pulling where CC and kiting is of utmost importance.

I also do not like the splintering of the community that WoW causes with horde vs alliance PVP set up. It has one major advantage in that you don't see nearly as much trash talking when you join a battle ground because you cant understand the other side anyway. But it also adds stupidity where you cant have one world wide auction house or you are less likely to find a solid group because half the people your ******* level are an entirely different faction.. For god sakes EVEN BLIZZARD has yet to make it so wow has ONE ******* auction house a reality...

One world wide auction house please....

Honestly to copy WoW is a fundamental mistake. I say this with absolute seriousness. The more the game is like WoW the less reason I will have to not just play WoW instead. The more the game is like FFXI post WOTG where questing and leveling consisted of a giant PVE focused world battle system the more reason I will be willing to play FF14 instead.

I cant stress this point enough
The more the game is like WoW the less reason I will have to not just play WoW instead.
#63 Jun 05 2009 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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Id like to also point out that when you are going over the negatives of FFXI PLEASE for the love of god check and make sure it wasn't fixed at some point.. I know many negatives that are still preasent in the game, like skilling up 2 hand weapons, ground kings ect...

Things like travel time and waiting for a boat for 15 minutes when nobody in their right mind actually uses the boats for actual traveling anymore.. Outpost warping in the original world and chocobo whistle made for travel times that even WoW cant compete with.

In every major city in the game was warp locations to travel instantly all over the place.

Also in recent times forced grouping at early levels in FFXI pretty much died in a fire when for many classes they made it possible to solo at ridicules speeds. a 2 man static could very easily go from 1-75 at probably around the same speed it took me to get druid from 1-80... actually probably faster because WoWs leveling TNLs even before level 20 average around 2 to 3 hours per level when in FFXI a solid duo could probably continue to do 1-2 levels per hour up into the 40s....

check your information before you complain that the game never changed in 5 years... Its annoying...
#64 Jun 05 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:


Quote:
EXCELLENT!! MAYBE NOW YOU'LL UNDERSTAND AND YOU AND YOUR FUNDAMENTALIST COMPADRES CAN STOP ARGUING THE FUNDAMENTALLY RETARDED IDEA THAT THE ONLY REASON TO GET THE GEAR IS TO BE ABLE TO SAY YOU GOT THE GEAR!!


Again that is the reason, in if you don’t like how things are, you can play WoW, that suits your taste better.


No, it means that if after all this time, if you still think the reason to get gear is for the sake of getting gear, I reckon you're about a week away from complaining about all the kids listening to their loud rock 'n roll music.

It's a dated concept. Fortunately for you and I, we don't have to argue over whether or not SE should build FFXIV specifically to suit the hardcore player, because they've already said they're not. It sounds to me that if the idea of casual players also being able to enjoy the game you play gets yer knickers in a knot, you'll be the one playing the older game when FFXIV goes live.
#65 Jun 05 2009 at 7:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I've played WoW for a little while, was okay...

Regarding FFXIV,

-Make crafting system challenging, yet very possible.

-Do not add "free" jumping. I feel that should stick to WoW and other MMOs alike; the character designings of FFXI/XIV(from what is shown so far) give off a "mature" feel, albeit fantasy like. For WoW, the characters were "toonish" so it suited well. If jumping were implemented, it might take away that solid "mature" feel and bring a goofy feel. Climbing, auto-jumping to get to ledges etc, and swimming seem alright.

-I really feel they should keep hardcore elements like camping and stuff, while introducing new ideas/systems for casual play. I agree with those that mention "the feeling of accomplishment",for eg. having gear you know others would not be able to get 1,2,3. The game could get lame and boring if everyone were to obtain "rare" or great equip with hot stats very easily; not saying that all great gear should be hard to obtain.

#66 Jun 05 2009 at 7:59 AM Rating: Default
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

To me, the main thing WoW really got right was instancing dungeons. FFF could take this a step further and make instanced world boss fights even. Sort of like using orbs put you in an arena, there could be areas of the world (where no monsters path through) where you go and click and are instanced into the boss fight. Maybe it would do something like put a translucent ring on the ground and if you run a certain distance out of that you have fleed and are taken out of the boss instance. It would be an upgrade from popping monsters that feasibly get stolen.


I Agree with this. Instancing just works better. You dont need your LS awake at 4am of your time to keep staring at a wall together with other 135 people fighting for a claim. A instance that resets once/week gives you time within one week to actually gather together in a time where everyones avaliable normally. And you dont run into another ls that just killed your dynamis run because they entered it and you cannot enter.

digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

Bind on equip gear. Oh god, please no. I hate this so very much. I understand having some really rare items be ex but I *liked* being able to sell stuff I didn't want anymore. It made it an investment, not a consumable. Also as long as crafts can desynth items for materials, you're not going to flood the market.


Bind on Equip/pickup only works because there is enough gear to equip people. If you had standard SE drop rates (ie, 0.15%) on a game like that you would be screwed.

Personally i like FFXI system more. The rarer gear is rarer, but it is sellable.

digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

Found recipes. One thing I did like about WoW better is that some recipes were really rare. Since some recipes were hard to get, they didn't have to take the left tonsil of tiamat every time for a powerful cloak or whatever to stay rare. I thought the fact that every synth in FFXI took a crystal was sort of contrived.


Sounds good to me. The recipes itself being rare instead of just the ingredients

digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

Ease: Something I've realized is that even though some things in FFXI are really frustrating, man you feel good once you finish them. WoW does hand you a lot of stuff. In some cases that's good, but its not for everything. What I've realized is that you need a healthy mix of both for players to find their level of challeng to try for. Too easy and everyone is bored (or too easy except that one exclusive raid that if you don't have a raid guild for, you just don't see), too hard and people are just annoyed, but even then that will hook some people.


I feel it needs a middle term. WoW is too easy. FFXI is too frustrating. It needs to be somewhere in between.


digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

Combat: I have to admit, I liked the fast paced combat for WoW better. : \ Its not even just the fast pace of actually doing stuff, but that it looks much cooler if your character is swinging a lot as compared to FFXI where so much of the battle is spent standing there. Even increasing the auto-swing timer x3 or so would have helped this. Looking cool is very important to a game!


I dont. I much prefer FFXI slower paced combat. I find it much more fun, and i get to exercise thinking when things get screwed. In wow, if you dont have lightning fast reactions when things start going wrong, everything is screwed. In FFXI, you can actually think about your next action while your sleep spell is going off.

digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

PvP: PvP can be fun from time to time but people obsess over it and when things start being balanced over number crunching and PvP fairness, it really takes any real flavor out of the classes and abilities. Paladins have an ability for instance, called 'exorcism'. It used to do damage to undead and demons only. Ok, that makes sense, it's banishing them. But then they made it work on everything for balance purposes. Why am I exorcising deer? Is it a possessed deer? Then they made it work only on npcs and not on players or anything controlled by players, because... ? Well its because they had to balance it for PvP. Honestly I'd rather have absolutely no PvP at all than such a PvP focus for balancing everything that completely ignores the actual lore and flavor of the game. Ballista was ok, it was a limited entertaining event.


Agreed. If there is PvP in the game, everything will have to be balanced for PvP. That kills a lot of the fun for me.

digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

One more thing on PvP though, if people are able to change their jobs, its more ok that certain jobs just aren't good for PvP since people can change to a different job. Its like IRL, a lawyer isn't going to be nearly as good at hand to hand combat as a marine.


Actually, i think this was one of the things FFXI did the best job at: I have one character. All my friends only need to know my one character. I only need to do the boring quests once with that character. And yet i can play any class i want.


AureliusSir wrote:
I enjoyed being able to go out and grind XP whether I could find a suitable group or not.


This i think is the biggest flaw of FFXI. The grind is just too long, too boring and too dependant on other people. If you could solo your XP at a reasonable rate, the game would have been much more enjoyable. The FFXI problem is that if you log on for a hour, because you know, you have one hour before you got to go to work, then there is nothing you can do in game. On WoW you could progress a bit towards a quest or two, grind some xp. Progress a little.
#67 Jun 05 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Default
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I'll add to the delevel thing by saying in 3 years of playing, I might have deleveled a whole 5 times, and those were at lower levels, right after I had dinged. If you're dying enough to delevel regularly, I honestly think you should be deleveling. If you're level 25 but can't do anything other level 25s can do without dying, it seems like you might want to try level 24 (or wahtever lower level) again and learn some of the basics.

Also, I'd much rather lose XP than see my equipment break. I did camp/mine for much of my gear so I could have afforded to fix it, but oh man... if my O kote, Brown Belt, TM Hooks +2, Peacock Charm, shoot, even if my republic subligar that I was wearing at 55 broke, I'd flip something awful. Even if you lose 10k XP on a death (didn't wait for raise), that takes an hour, maybe two hours to get it back in a party. I spent many more hours than that getting the gil I'd need to repair some of my gear.

You're right about time sinks not representing skill. They do sort of represent "want it"-ness, though. In a video game with a battle system as simple as FFXIs, it wasn't *that* difficult to get the hang of it [I have seen people that were just awful and should have deleveled a few times =P). The only thing to separate players is by showing how much more they are willing to work to get a better character. I think of equipment as the silent PvP of FFXI; I think there should be competition.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 12:10pm by TheShadowWalker
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#68 Jun 05 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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dyvidd wrote:
Quote:
Ever wonder why SE made it so that beyond a certain point you pretty much had to group for XP? Part of it was game design by choice, and part of it was hardware limitations both on SE's end and on the PS2.


LMAO. FFXI was designed based on the concept of teamwork.


Yes, yes it was.

Quote:
That is the only reason.


No, no it isn't. Believe it if you want to, but you don't have to think very hard to realize that I'm right. Hardware limitations played an enormous role in the restriction of content in FFXI to include a limit on the number of zones the servers could support and the density of mobs in the zones.

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Respawn times have nothing to do with PS2 Limits nor do monster level.


I never said anything about respawn times being part of the hardware limitations.

Quote:
Even when ffxi first came out it had jobs that could solo to 75. Don't even how instances would even play a factor into the group equation for xping but whatever.


One. One job. And it was never intended as a solo job...it just worked out that way and players jumped on it and found a way to make it work as a solo job.

Quote:
The subject of this post is learning from WoW, even their mistakes believe or not. Honestly I don't know what WoW your playing because the one I just quit last month after two years of play didn't have a good group play. It was join an instance group or don't group till end game. Sure they had group quest but that was more pain to complete than just skipping it and keep soloing.


Compared to what? Join an xp group or don't gain xp? Ya...real tidy comparison there. It's funny because it's no harder to use the WoW LFG interface than it is to use the one in FFXI. It's no harder to use the search function than it is to use the one in FFXI. It's no harder to communicate with other players in WoW than it is in FFXI and yet, despite group content being more diverse at lower levels in WoW than FFXI, a great many players are happy to just do their own thing. What does that tell you about what the players want? And no, you can't lump and stereotype all WoW players as socially inept/anti-social jerks so that's why they play WoW and that's why they don't group. The playerbase makes their own choices based on the options presented to them. Other MMOs since then have presented similar options and guess what? Same thing. If you allow people to level solo, that's what they're usually going to do. If FFXIV follows through and presents options for rewarding solo play like Blizzard has said it will, you'll see the exact same thing...and it will be a lot of veteran FFXI players who have never touched WoW doing it that way, too.

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Again, post is called learning from WoW. WoW started the green, blue, purple, etc gear drop from random mobs and other games picked it up. The also made those greens and blue in most cases better than what is crafted at that level.


The benefit to crafted gear in WoW was that if you stayed current with your professions and chose professions that were able to produce things your class could readily use, your profession could represent a consistent and ongoing benefit to you. The tiered gear system in WoW provides Blizzard with an opportunity to add incentive to group play; the best gear in the game can only be earned by taking part in content that requires a group.

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As someone who tried his had at crafting I found it easier to craft armor for myself than to craft armor and sell it on the AH. Reason being is because the stuff never sells on the AH. People have decent armor from drops already. Only at end game levels does crafted armors come into play.


That's right. When gaining xp doesn't often require an hour or more trying to get a group made and assembled at your camp, people tend to level faster. When you've got a choice between farming for <x> amount of time to buy gear for your current level or spending that same amount of time earning xp, most players would opt to go the xp route. That was a choice made by the players. Again, if you want to criticize a developer and/or their game for giving players choice, I've got nothing for you.

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I am keeping it real. FFXI a player looks at what the last 7 bids are and sells their item for 2k gil less. Another player looks at the AH and see the last seven bids are 8k and makes a bid for 7.5k, sold.


At least when I place something on the auction house in WoW, I know how much my competition is selling for and not just playing a guessing game hoping that a reasonable undercut would have me far enough up on the queue that my stuff had a chance to sell before I lost my deposit.

#69 Jun 05 2009 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm actually hoping that FFF takes a page from Guild Wars and makes the exp areas instanced.

So a leveling sessin goes like this: Grab 2-4 friends, go to a specified training arena, and have auto generated monsters appropriate to your level and setup produced for you at regular intervals. They wanted team vs team combat, so perhaps have initial battles be singles, with later fights being your party against a monster party, with more teamwork and coordination being required than current parties.

I think square enix was disappointed that the playerbase of FFXI outgrew their elegantly designed skillchain and magic burst system, and they want to have the teamwork and interdependence integrated much more tightly into FFXIV.
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#70 Jun 05 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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GrandScale wrote:
-Make crafting system challenging, yet very possible.

By "challenging," do you mean a gold sink or something involving skill? Crafting can certainly be made "hard," by increasing toe failure point or materiel cost to the point where only the richest players can participate, but that's not the kind of system I would like.

To make crafting require skill is difficult. I've yet to see an MMO designer create an effective skill based crafting system. Ultimately what I think game developers want to avoid is a situation where a player can simply craft while afk (either through in game methods or a simple script). If the acitvity is so brainless that a player does not feel the need to even pay attention, then one has created a bad system.

It might be somewhat of a strange idea, but I think crafting in all mmos could borrow a page from Puzzle Pirates' book. In that game, most tasks involve solving puzzles. There are puzzles to sail, to duel, to repair the ship, etc. A puzzle minigame could make contextual sense for crafting and add an element of player skill to the mix. There could be a simple "auto-make" button that bypassed the puzzle for when you want to mass craft basic items, but when you're trying to make that hauberk +1 you definitely want to take your time on the puzzle and do it well.
#71 Jun 05 2009 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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catwho the Pest wrote:
I'm actually hoping that FFF takes a page from Guild Wars and makes the exp areas instanced.

So a leveling sessin goes like this: Grab 2-4 friends, go to a specified training arena, and have auto generated monsters appropriate to your level and setup produced for you at regular intervals. They wanted team vs team combat, so perhaps have initial battles be singles, with later fights being your party against a monster party, with more teamwork and coordination being required than current parties.

I think square enix was disappointed that the playerbase of FFXI outgrew their elegantly designed skillchain and magic burst system, and they want to have the teamwork and interdependence integrated much more tightly into FFXIV.


I think that's an interesting idea. I think that it could add another level of diversity to the game if you had instances that were specifically designed around gaining xp with little/no concern for loot. I do think, however, that offering decent loot from instance bosses is a fun thing to do so if I had a choice between a bit of xp for killing trash and a handful of bosses for slightly extended fights and some reasonably decent shinies, I'd probably take that option over a straight grinding dungeon.
#72 Jun 05 2009 at 8:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I imagine "skill" in crafting to being able to research where to get the ingredients for cheapest or what to synth on any level to get more profit/skillups out of it.. I don't think there's need for minigames (would be fun of course) but by making it so that there is a difference between a crafter who doesn't care and a crafter who does, be it better skillups or more gil or whatever would be 'challenging' enough.
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#73 Jun 05 2009 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
I'd like to see the emotes being a little like wows - big differences in the actions depending on race and if you're male or female , and a variety of dances .

I haven't really played wow enough to comment on actual gameplay (I took up the free trial a couple of days ago, but I do like the emotes)

I also like the way the maps unlock in wow - you discover a new area, gain some exp, and then its marked on your map ^^
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#74 Jun 05 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I also like the way the maps unlock in wow - you discover a new area, gain some exp, and then its marked on your map ^^


I think this sounds exactly what SE's gonna do, but maybe more depth added to it (possibly even make the core of the game work like this?)
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#75 Jun 05 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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- I meant a system that forces creativity, thus requiring common sense skills and
in game stat skills. One that would make you think before crafting even with all
necessary items at hand; for eg., say in this case it's blacksmithing, the
outcome or design or maybe even color of a piece of equipment is affected
(by the way you craft) a little but not to the extent where it looks completely
different from the original look. Might be asking for too much or too tedious,
thinking about it now, but something like this. lol :/


Edited, Jun 5th 2009 1:16pm by GrandScale
#76 Jun 05 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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If I had to pull things from wow it would be:

Quests giving exp - rep should be a consideration, but not the primary focus of most quests.

Easier to expand inventory - getting a reasonable inventory size should not require a lot of money or reputation with a faction. Expanding your inventory to a higher then "average" size should.

Solo ability - party mechanics are nice, being able to also solo is nicer. Basically, both group and solo play should be viable exp methods

Instancing - content should be considered hard by the difficulty of the encounter, not by the difficulty of getting the claim.

Respawns - Make them faster. Or make them forced popped. Random NM's popping up or roaming around is nice and adds flavor to the game. Having those things be camped to extinction because they drop uber-gear kills that flavor.

Gear - Make there be progression, but not inflation. A lvl 20 peice of gear should be replaced by lvl 25 / 30, not carried over to near level cap. Conversely, gear should be a factor, but it should not exclipse your character.

UI - make it customizable, but regulated. Prevent cheaters / bots, but allow the user to customize the look / feel of the game.

Travel - make it more accessible, flexible and faster.

Character - make them customizable. I'm tired of running into my twins.

Communication - talk to us. Engage in discussion with us. Use a test live server with player feed back and listen to us!

Balance - remove the specialist / trinity design. Make all classes viable and equal in effectiveness, but with different flavors and playstyles to them. Give us options in group dynamics!
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#77 Jun 05 2009 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm actually hoping that FFF takes a page from Guild Wars and makes the exp areas instanced.


I'm sorry, but I honestly hope no games take anything from Guild Wars. I was so entirely uninterested in that game, and I did, I honestly did give it a chance. There wasn't a single aspect I liked, including the combat system. I think if Guild Wars wasn't free to play, no one would play it.

Quote:
I think square enix was disappointed that the playerbase of FFXI outgrew their elegantly designed skillchain and magic burst system, and they want to have the teamwork and interdependence integrated much more tightly into FFXIV.


Outgrew? When did the playerbase ever outgrow it? Sure, it might not be as common to see people doing skillchains as much as, say, power leveling is, but there were plenty of people still who didn't want to take the easy route to leveling and liked fights being quick and easy because of the skill of the party. Skillchains are essential for melees maxing the damage they can put out, and magic bursts added so much more damage. It's a great system, and people still use it. Magic bursts might not be as common with the lolBLM mentalities, but ****, as a BLU I was all for MBs.
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#78 Jun 05 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maldavian wrote:

Again this is what differentiates FFXI apart from WoW casual "Joe" play style. The time sinks are there for a reason, as to NOT get that uber item in 1 week, not make 99,99% of the population in a MMO running around in MAXED gear, rather the gear you have, if it’s really hard to get worthwhile once you have it and you feel very special. In WoW there is nothing that stands out. All gear will get rested every 6 months and there is no working towards a goal for long periods of time (relics in FFXI). This is the difference between a hardcore and a causal MMO, time sinks will ALWAYS be a part of a hardcore MMO.


There are plenty of things that make people stand out in WoW, it's just that they aren't necessarily gear related. Rare mounts, for instance. You can't tell me that someone riding around on the Baron's mount or the Phoenix mount doesn't look/feel very special. Plus, getting them requires doing the exact same thing over and over hundreds of times, making them very much like relics in FFXI.

Another thing that Blizzard added to allow players to stand out in ways other than gear was the achievement system. These allow people to get special titles or tabards for completing certain objectives. (Think titles in FFXI, except they appear before/after your name above your character, so that others need not fear /check-anxiety in order to see them). For many of these titles/tabards, massive amounts of time-sink are required and force you to work towards a goal for long periods of time.

#79 Jun 05 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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wyrmnax wrote:

This i think is the biggest flaw of FFXI. The grind is just too long, too boring and too dependant on other people. If you could solo your XP at a reasonable rate, the game would have been much more enjoyable. The FFXI problem is that if you log on for a hour, because you know, you have one hour before you got to go to work, then there is nothing you can do in game. On WoW you could progress a bit towards a quest or two, grind some xp. Progress a little.


The grind is an absolute joke these days.. I just got through saying that its annoying reading comments from people talking about the game if they have not played the game in the last year or two...

I am not kidding man, especially at lower levels solo, gone from level 11 to 19 in like 2 hours.. Level sync groups doing 15k per hour in qufim... Skilling up after you hit the high levels will take longer than it did to get there...

When was the last time you played? ( not sarcastic or trying to be rude. Actually want to know )
#80 Jun 05 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
If I had to pull things from wow it would be:

Quests giving exp - rep should be a consideration, but not the primary focus of most quests.

Easier to expand inventory - getting a reasonable inventory size should not require a lot of money or reputation with a faction. Expanding your inventory to a higher then "average" size should.

Solo ability - party mechanics are nice, being able to also solo is nicer. Basically, both group and solo play should be viable exp methods

Instancing - content should be considered hard by the difficulty of the encounter, not by the difficulty of getting the claim.

Respawns - Make them faster. Or make them forced popped. Random NM's popping up or roaming around is nice and adds flavor to the game. Having those things be camped to extinction because they drop uber-gear kills that flavor.

Gear - Make there be progression, but not inflation. A lvl 20 peice of gear should be replaced by lvl 25 / 30, not carried over to near level cap. Conversely, gear should be a factor, but it should not exclipse your character.

UI - make it customizable, but regulated. Prevent cheaters / bots, but allow the user to customize the look / feel of the game.

Travel - make it more accessible, flexible and faster.

Character - make them customizable. I'm tired of running into my twins.

Communication - talk to us. Engage in discussion with us. Use a test live server with player feed back and listen to us!

Balance - remove the specialist / trinity design. Make all classes viable and equal in effectiveness, but with different flavors and playstyles to them. Give us options in group dynamics!


Excellent post. I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. If they added this, and more, to FFXIV I think it would be a great game.
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#81 Jun 05 2009 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
Quote:
The subject of this post is learning from WoW, even their mistakes believe or not. Honestly I don't know what WoW your playing because the one I just quit last month after two years of play didn't have a good group play. It was join an instance group or don't group till end game. Sure they had group quest but that was more pain to complete than just skipping it and keep soloing.



Compared to what? Join an xp group or don't gain xp? Ya...real tidy comparison there. It's funny because it's no harder to use the WoW LFG interface than it is to use the one in FFXI. It's no harder to use the search function than it is to use the one in FFXI. It's no harder to communicate with other players in WoW than it is in FFXI and yet, despite group content being more diverse at lower levels in WoW than FFXI, a great many players are happy to just do their own thing. What does that tell you about what the players want? And no, you can't lump and stereotype all WoW players as socially inept/anti-social jerks so that's why they play WoW and that's why they don't group. The playerbase makes their own choices based on the options presented to them. Other MMOs since then have presented similar options and guess what? Same thing. If you allow people to level solo, that's what they're usually going to do. If FFXIV follows through and presents options for rewarding solo play like Blizzard has said it will, you'll see the exact same thing...and it will be a lot of veteran FFXI players who have never touched WoW doing it that way, too.


Solo in FFXI is viable now. The only rough stretch is between levels 50-60 once you hit 60 you can campaign for xp which is pretty much quest for xp system.

The way it is currently balanced in FFXI is that leveling solo is extremely viable but leveling in a group post level 30 starts to get faster and a really good group could net you 5+ levels in a single day without breaking a sweat. The problem with solo leveling in FFXI at this point has nothing to do with viability or even speed no the biggest fault clearly falls on its repetitiveness. Killing stuff and doing nothing else will get boring no matter what. Fields of valor was meant to combat this but that in and of itself is repetitive too.. They needed more verity of tasks than just killing stuff to pull it off.

Questing for xp forces players to use more than one part of their brain varying up the experience a bit while playing with a group of 6 other players tends to do the same thing in different ways.

Lets take the baseline length of time it takes to level on average in wow between levels 20-40. Every level in wow takes a couple hours easily and by the time you reach the high 30s it often takes 3 hours per level. More if you get stuck because you cant figure out a confusing quest. 11 DAYS of actual time spent playing the game to reach level 80 is considered blazing fast in WoW.

In order for it take take longer than 3 hours for me to level in FFXI I would have to not use my xp band and be in the upper 40s 50s. 3k per hour is pretty average solo speed and if you consider the empress band and check my statement with how much xp it takes to level it should check out. Approximately the same speed that you level in WoW at its absolute slowest.

My point being is that its not slow leveling solo in FFXI its BORING there is a huge difference. Something that could easily be fixed with the right mindset.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 3:03pm by thorazinekizzez
#82 Jun 05 2009 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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SEforPrez wrote:

There are plenty of things that make people stand out in WoW, it's just that they aren't necessarily gear related. Rare mounts, for instance. You can't tell me that someone riding around on the Baron's mount or the Phoenix mount doesn't look/feel very special. Plus, getting them requires doing the exact same thing over and over hundreds of times, making them very much like relics in FFXI.


Hmm, I wouldn’t call baron's mount anything special. At level 80 what people do is solo that instance over and over again day in and out to get the mount, the most boring chore you can ever imagine, that also has no impact on your character for other events in the game, meaning it’s just cosmetic.

Quote:
Another thing that Blizzard added to allow players to stand out in ways other than gear was the achievement system. These allow people to get special titles or tabards for completing certain objectives. (Think titles in FFXI, except they appear before/after your name above your character, so that others need not fear /check-anxiety in order to see them). For many of these titles/tabards, massive amounts of time-sink are required and force you to work towards a goal for long periods of time.


Again, cosmetics that really don’t improve your character in anyway, so at the end of the days it's not really useful. It doesn’t improve your character, also I would mention that FFXI implemented that title system from the beginning and no one really cares about titles even in FFXI.
#83 Jun 05 2009 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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but it's cosmetics like that that keep the player playing their character. It's rewarding to get a new title or tabard that shows off your accomplishment, as much as it is to get a weapon that increases your DPS and whatnot.
#84 Jun 05 2009 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
If I had to pull things from wow it would be:

Quests giving exp - rep should be a consideration, but not the primary focus of most quests.


Agree.

Quote:
Easier to expand inventory - getting a reasonable inventory size should not require a lot of money or reputation with a faction. Expanding your inventory to a higher then "average" size should.


Agree.

Quote:
Solo ability - party mechanics are nice, being able to also solo is nicer. Basically, both group and solo play should be viable exp methods


Only for XP and simple quests, nothing else. Also earn more xp/hour if your group instead of solo to promote grouping.

Quote:
Instancing - content should be considered hard by the difficulty of the encounter, not by the difficulty of getting the claim.


It's done already in FFXI, most of the high end content nowadays are instance based but I still like those few outdoor to remain, as it adds a flavor to the game that WoW does not have.

Quote:
Respawns - Make them faster. Or make them forced popped. Random NM's popping up or roaming around is nice and adds flavor to the game. Having those things be camped to extinction because they drop uber-gear kills that flavor.


If you make them respawn faster there is no point in them being a NM, the NM tag indicates that it has potentially really good item and thus it’s hard to get. If everyone could just stay in a line and get it without even breaking a sweat on endure any kind of competition over it then it would really be meaningless. Also you refer to the outdoor NM:s now, and once again most of the high end content nowadays in FFXI is instance based. There will be some gear you need to get from these NM:s but the majority of your gear will come from instance based events, we do want a healthy mix of both type of events, instanced and outdoor.

Quote:
Gear - Make there be progression, but not inflation. A lvl 20 peice of gear should be replaced by lvl 25 / 30, not carried over to near level cap. Conversely, gear should be a factor, but it should not exclipse your character.


Again this is a system that WoW has adapted, and not FFXI, both system works in their own way, and you want that FF should copy WoW in this matter, but I have to disagree here since I think the current FF11 works fine. WoW on the other hand resets your gear every 6 month, no thanks to that. That’s one of the point in playing another MMO, you don’t want a copy of another MMO, at least try to make it as different as possible.

Quote:

UI - make it customizable, but regulated. Prevent cheaters / bots, but allow the user to customize the look / feel of the game.


I agree here, that would improve the gameplay overall.

Quote:
Travel - make it more accessible, flexible and faster.


Agree again.

Quote:
Character - make them customizable. I'm tired of running into my twins.


This will hopefully be fixed in FF14 :D

Quote:
Communication - talk to us. Engage in discussion with us. Use a test live server with player feed back and listen to us!


To some degree yes, but not as WoW has turned out, where its player base naggings on the forum have made Blizzard change the game into a mess it is today.

Quote:
Balance - remove the specialist / trinity design. Make all classes viable and equal in effectiveness, but with different flavors and playstyles to them. Give us options in group dynamics!


You mean homogenize the classes so that they are in the end exactly the same thing? Since FF14 will not focus on PVP that is not needed thank god. Instead, there will be divided into the standard, tank, dps, healing, support and hybrid classes.
#85 Jun 05 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maldavian wrote:
All gear will get rested every 6 months and there is no working towards a goal for long periods of time (relics in FFXI). This is the difference between a hardcore and a causal MMO, time sinks will ALWAYS be a part of a hardcore MMO.
First: Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker, Sulfuras Hand of Ragnaros, Atiesh Greatstaff of the Guardian, and the current legendary, Val'anyr Hammer of the Ancient Kings would like to have a word with you.

Second: Timesinks exist regardless of how hardcore or casual a game is. The severity of the timesinks and the degrees in which you get penalized may vary, but both are still timesinks. If not, I would already have an Argent Hippogriph and maxed reputation with the Silver Covenant. What really sets them apart is that until recently hardcore games built themselves around timesinks that would bore a normal person to tears.

Quote:
So you want to learn a tricky boss? How hard is it to learn a tricky boss? A few tries and that’s it. And if you are "Joe" standard player you don’t even try you just wait for the top guilds to release a movie and then copy the strategy. Get real son. Also once again, you gear will get useless after 6 months, what’s the point in getting gear at all if you need to replace it after such a short time?
Flawed logic is flawed. Even after you figure out a boss it can take a while to get them down pat and one-shotting it after you get it on farm status. Also, movie strategies will only go so far. Watching the Auriaya fight on youtube doesn't help when there's no Death Knight off-tank to pull the boss in your raid. And every raid does things their own way. Lastly, you gear to see content. It's the same as it was before, really.

Quote:
WoW has repair cost, and FFXI XP. Which of the 2 systems are better? Seems like SE went with the XP loss. It’s a matter of taste and time wise makes no different, because you still need to farm the gold for the repair if you die too much. Oh wait you mean you can get around that in WoW by buying gold for real money? Indeed, nice way to support RMT Blizzard, on the contrary XP loss can’t be bought with real money but threw a learning curve. And don’t worry if you don’t have XP, you might still loose something like skill points if you die, so not a problem there. If you are in a party where you have a wipe feast then something is obviously wrong, disband and look for another instead of wiping endlessly. There have never been any areas as dangerous as you describe in FFXI where me and my party have wiped endlessly. I don’t know where you are getting that from. If you are a bad player, sure you will get panelized for it and if you are a good player you don’t suffer the consequences. The bad player will eventually learn and become a good player, that’s pretty natural. If the bad player doesn’t learn, he will never level/skill up and quits the game.
RMT are in no way supported, and it's dumb to even consider them a factor. The truth is, these guys are desperate enough that they make characters with random letters for names for the sole purpose of running into town and trying advertising their services, at which point all players on general and trade chat will report them for spamming. The system in place also makes reliance on RMT pointless, since gold at max level is rather easy to obtain, and unlike FFXI you don't need the best of the best gear be viable in a party, since the point is killing the boss at the end of the instance, not getting max exp/hour. Most of the stuff that costs more than the 5000 gold needed for epic flying training is merely vanity stuff. So no, people are not buying success with money.

Repait costs at low levels are pretty lenient, when you think about it. It also does not directly affect character progression, since people are not losing levels left and right. Progression into the latest batch of content would be a complete headache for guilds if exp loss was in place. I know square noticed this becuase the closest possible thing (the CoP missions) got changed so that you didn't lose exp in them. You can't really compare repair costs to exp loss. Even as a lv80 character with full epic gear, the repair costs aren't that bad considering how much gold I can make from doing two or three daily quests.

PS: If I'm feeding a troll, my apologies.
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#86 Jun 05 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Honetly. Id throw away what we know of ffxi and WoW level progression. What the devs are talking about doesnt sound like either one. No Xp, your character "Grows" based on what you do and what weapon your using. That sounds to me more like UO or Eve. They said "Growth" will come no matter what you do solo, group, whatever, so I would throw away the concept of level grinding as we know it for now.
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#87 Jun 05 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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ogrebattle wrote:
but it's cosmetics like that that keep the player playing their character. It's rewarding to get a new title or tabard that shows off your accomplishment, as much as it is to get a weapon that increases your DPS and whatnot.


No, you can use your weapon in events that you participate in; the weapon will make a difference when you fight, but not your title nor what mount you have.
I rather get items that will improve my character then getting useless achievements and mounts that are cosmetic.

I’m not saying that you should remove the title system or getting mount, just that those things have very small value of achievement compare to items that you actually can use to advance in the game.
#88 Jun 05 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:
You mean homogenize the classes so that they are in the end exactly the same thing? Since FF14 will not focus on PVP that is not needed thank god. Instead, there will be divided into the standard, tank, dps, healing, support and hybrid classes.

It doesn't have to homogenize. Classes don't have to be pigeonholed into a single role, and frankly I find that to be boring.

Rather than seeing each class being able to fulfill only one role, I'd rather see each class being able to fulfill multiple roles. I'd like to see a paladin who can effectively tank or heal. I'd like to see a white mage who can heal, but she can also dish out the divine wrath if need be. I'd like to see rangers be able to do ranged DPS or disable the mob.

Since there are several classes that can fulfill several roles you don't one specific class or class type for your party. You have more options than whm or rdm for a healer. You have more options than paladin or ninja for a tank. None of the classes are teh same either. Rather than being defined by a single role each class is defined by the spread of roles it can fulfill. A paladin who can tank and heal effectively brings a different offering to the table than a warrior who could tank and dps effectively. You have greater flexibility in your party composition.

I think players would enjoy the greater freedom without losing a sense of what each class is.
#89 Jun 05 2009 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I would like to see FFXIV incorporate movement into fighting. Standing in one place for a long time can get kind of dull, and having to manage movement helped to make WoW major boss fights and PvP pretty intense for me.

I don't think they should copy WoWs talent tree system, but they should add in some more customization options so that everyone belonging to a class isn't the exact same.
#90 Jun 05 2009 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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mortalabattoir wrote:
Outgrew? When did the playerbase ever outgrow it? Sure, it might not be as common to see people doing skillchains as much as, say, power leveling is, but there were plenty of people still who didn't want to take the easy route to leveling and liked fights being quick and easy because of the skill of the party. Skillchains are essential for melees maxing the damage they can put out, and magic bursts added so much more damage. It's a great system, and people still use it. Magic bursts might not be as common with the lolBLM mentalities, but ****, as a BLU I was all for MBs.
The major flaw of the skillchain system is that the options were too few when it came to usable WS. As a DRK, I always liked scythe better, but had to take up greatsword because GS is what closes Light, since Darkness a) was resisted more and b) favored elements that did less damage than Thundaga III, which translates into less burst damage. They'd need to come up with something to resolve that issue before skillchains get my vote.
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#91 Jun 05 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
First: Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker, Sulfuras Hand of Ragnaros, Atiesh Greatstaff of the Guardian, and the current legendary, Val'anyr Hammer of the Ancient Kings would like to have a word with you.


Really ? Thunderfury, at the beginning a good sword that got nurfed to ****, and became useless after a while, Sulfuras, again a good mace that of course only lasted until expansion hit the stores. Atiesh, very few guilds actually made that staff and got screwed over pretty bad when TBC hit the stores, so in the end not point in getting it whatsoever.

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Second: Timesinks exist regardless of how hardcore or casual a game is. The severity of the timesinks and the degrees in which you get penalized may vary, but both are still timesinks. If not, I would already have an Argent Hippogriph and maxed reputation with the Silver Covenant. What really sets them apart is that until recently hardcore games built themselves around timesinks that would bore a normal person to tears.


Then don’t play those hardcore MMO, simple as that. Why do you think there are a variety of different MMO:s out there? So that people can choose what they want to play. If a hardcore MMO doesn’t suit your taste then don’t play it.

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Flawed logic is flawed. Even after you figure out a boss it can take a while to get them down pat and one-shotting it after you get it on farm status. Also, movie strategies will only go so far. Watching the Auriaya fight on youtube doesn't help when there's no Death Knight off-tank to pull the boss in your raid. And every raid does things their own way. Lastly, you gear to see content. It's the same as it was before, really.


Yes in WoW that is how things work, you gear up to SEE the next content, with the exception of expansions where they will raise the level bar meaning that that last instance is skippable and not really needed to progress in the game, instances like Nax before TBC, and Sunwell before Leech King.

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Repait costs at low levels are pretty lenient, when you think about it. It also does not directly affect character progression, since people are not losing levels left and right. Progression into the latest batch of content would be a complete headache for guilds if exp loss was in place. I know square noticed this becuase the closest possible thing (the CoP missions) got changed so that you didn't lose exp in them. You can't really compare repair costs to exp loss. Even as a lv80 character with full epic gear, the repair costs aren't that bad considering how much gold I can make from doing two or three daily quests.


Again the death penalty system that WoW is using is lenient, and the one FFXI is using is harsh, the difference between a casual and hardcore MMO.

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PS: If I'm feeding a troll, my apologies.


Not at all, you had a lot of interesting input.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 4:45pm by Maldavian
#92 Jun 05 2009 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Darkskeleton wrote:
I would like to see FFXIV incorporate movement into fighting. Standing in one place for a long time can get kind of dull, and having to manage movement helped to make WoW major boss fights and PvP pretty intense for me.

I don't think they should copy WoWs talent tree system, but they should add in some more customization options so that everyone belonging to a class isn't the exact same.


It’s pretty hard to PvP if you only stand still in any game. The customization worked with that you had subjobs, and that you could choose 20 jobs, combining 20 classes with 20 different subjobs that yielded 400 different combinations. You also had the merit system which you could customize you character even further.

Compared to WoW where each job has 3 viable options making it 30 different combinations and setups. Both systems are good and work in their own different ways.
#93 Jun 05 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Tytrian wrote:
Quote:
3. The ability to solo, but still party in a group
Somebody mentioned this, and it's a great idea. Let me solo XP anywhere, anytime, but make it as 80% efficient as grouping.


I think it's a great idea to allow a player to advance solo no matter their "level" (for lack of a better term) and on any job. However, I think WoW has shown if you don't really buff the rewards for grouping for XP, no one ever will. And learning party dynamics as your job progresses makes for a better, more confident end game player. It also gets characters more integrated to the community at large.

If I were King, I'd set the solo advancement rate rate at more like 33-40% as efficient as grouping. That way, if I only have 30 minutes to play, or assembling a group together on a given evening isn't working, I can still go out and make progress on my own. But there would be a high incentive for me to take the time to get a group together when I have longer to play, and bigger XP, errr advancement (this no xp thing in XIV is gonna take me some time to assimilate) goals I want to accomplish.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 6:36pm by ascorbic
#94 Jun 05 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:

Rather than seeing each class being able to fulfill only one role, I'd rather see each class being able to fulfill multiple roles. I'd like to see a paladin who can effectively tank or heal. I'd like to see a white mage who can heal, but she can also dish out the divine wrath if need be. I'd like to see rangers be able to do ranged DPS or disable the mob.

Since there are several classes that can fulfill several roles you don't one specific class or class type for your party. You have more options than whm or rdm for a healer. You have more options than paladin or ninja for a tank. None of the classes are teh same either. Rather than being defined by a single role each class is defined by the spread of roles it can fulfill. A paladin who can tank and heal effectively brings a different offering to the table than a warrior who could tank and dps effectively. You have greater flexibility in your party composition.

I think players would enjoy the greater freedom without losing a sense of what each class is.


That is how subjobs work my friend. Also when incorporate more flexibly in every class the need to have that many classes really disappear, since each class will be a lot more versatile.
#95 Jun 05 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
Really? Thunderfury, at the beginning a good sword that got nurfed to ****, and became useless after a while, Sulfuras, again a good mace that of course only lasted until expansion hit the stores. Atiesh, very few guilds actually made that staff and got screwed over pretty bad when TBC hit the stores, so in the end not point in getting it whatsoever.
You claimed that there was nothing people could put effort into for a prolongued amount of time. I mentioned the ones currently in game, that require coordination from an entire guild to put together. Thunderfury was the "easier" of the legendaries to get (and primarily a tank weapon because of the proc). Sulfuras was nothing to scoff at, and required a 1% drop item from Ragnaros himself. Atiesh required collecting all the splinters + the head and base from Kel'thuzad and C'thun. I'll agree that guilds got screwed over Atiesh, but that was more because they released naxxrammas too late in vanilla (which is why they chose to retune naxx for lv80 with Lich King).

My guild is currently working on Val'anyr, and I know it'll be a while before we get ours to our druid main healer. Long term project for us.

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Then don’t play those hardcore MMO, simple as that. Why do you think there are a variety of different MMO:s out there? So that people can choose what they want to play. If a hardcore MMO doesn’t suit your taste then don’t play it.
Timesinks are still involved. It's just a matter choosing what type of timesink you want in your game: the type that you can shrug your shoulders at, or the type that bores you to tears.

The formula for MMO design has changed. You can't just put in timesinks for the sake of having timesinks anymore. You have to blend them in well enough that it doesn't frustrate the player, thus making you as a designer rely less on your playerbase's unquestionable faith to keep them playing.

All that being said, XIV's claim of being casual friendly makes me question what the guys at square actually consider to be "casual".
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#96 Jun 05 2009 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
That is how subjobs work my friend. Also when incorporate more flexibly in every class the need to have that many classes really disappear, since each class will be a lot more versatile.

I'm not up to date on the current situation in FFXI, but for the two years I played pld/whm were never seen as main healers (or as a good combination at all), Whm/blm never were as nukers, and rng/rdm was an unheard of combination--much less a viable disabler.

When I was playing FFXI if you were a paladin you were always a tank and only a tank. Maybe on certain HNMs you would be able to build 300% TP for spirits within, but for almost the entire game you tanked. I doubt much has changed about this, but if paladins are now considered competent primary healers or DPS or anything other than tanks please inform me that I am wrong.
#97 Jun 05 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:

All that being said, XIV's claim of being casual friendly makes me question what the guys at square actually consider to be "casual".


Very good question, I guess we need to wait and see. Casual can mean anything really and we can do at this point is to speculate.
#98 Jun 05 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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#99 Jun 05 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Only for XP and simple quests, nothing else. Also earn more xp/hour if your group instead of solo to promote grouping.


Yeah, that was what i tried to imply. If i could have it as an ideal (and this is my opinion only) all classes could solo / quest to level cap. Doing missions or story line would require a group. Doing any NM's or BCNM's should require a group.

Doing something like earn a transportation method should never require a group. Not particularly the case in ffxi, but something i felt should be mentioned.

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It's done already in FFXI, most of the high end content nowadays are instance based but I still like those few outdoor to remain, as it adds a flavor to the game that WoW does not have.


Yeah, to expand on my post (since i was running out of time on lunch break):
The world should be seamless - the boss / dungeon content should be instanced. To put this in an example in ffxi - Davoi, Castle Ort, etc should be instanced.

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If you make them respawn faster there is no point in them being a NM, the NM tag indicates that it has potentially really good item and thus it’s hard to get. If everyone could just stay in a line and get it without even breaking a sweat on endure any kind of competition over it then it would really be meaningless. Also you refer to the outdoor NM:s now, and once again most of the high end content nowadays in FFXI is instance based. There will be some gear you need to get from these NM:s but the majority of your gear will come from instance based events, we do want a healthy mix of both type of events, instanced and outdoor.


People will camp them regardless. it's just whether or not they sit around for 1-4 hours doing so, or if they actually have control over it. In that sense, it is a choice of whether you make the fight challenging or if you simply make it take a long time to get (by making respawns longer or drop rates smaller). I think the vast majority of players would rather be engaged in a skillful battle with an NM for an item rather then sitting around for hours on end hoping for claims / drops.

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Again this is a system that WoW has adapted, and not FFXI, both system works in their own way, and you want that FF should copy WoW in this matter, but I have to disagree here since I think the current FF11 works fine. WoW on the other hand resets your gear every 6 month, no thanks to that. That’s one of the point in playing another MMO, you don’t want a copy of another MMO, at least try to make it as different as possible.


You misunderstood. In wow, gear eclipses the character. In Age of Conan, gear is near meaningless in most cases. FFxi falls somewhere inbetween, and this is something i like about the game. However what i do not like is the general progression of the gear. As i said - a lvl 20 item should be replaced in a timely fashion. It should not last you til near endgame.

At endgame, well I think that there should simply be different variations on gear. But mmo's tend to present the carrot on a stick formula (like wow) but i would prefer other means.

But like i said - gear should progress, but not eclipse the character.

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To some degree yes, but not as WoW has turned out, where its player base naggings on the forum have made Blizzard change the game into a mess it is today


Yeah, first step i think would be for SE to actually make an offical forum (or use this one) and have a community representative to talk to us regularly and listen to the constructive posts.

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You mean homogenize the classes so that they are in the end exactly the same thing? Since FF14 will not focus on PVP that is not needed thank god. Instead, there will be divided into the standard, tank, dps, healing, support and hybrid classes.


Not really. What i meant was if you are a dd you are just as viable in almost all situations as another dd. For example - a dk's dps and utility are equal to a drg's dps and utility. A pld is just as good at tanking as a ninja.

Currently, there is job imbalance. Certain jobs just do not perform equally compared to their counter parts in a large number of situations. This is a problem, a problem that should be addressed.

Basically, if you follow the same setup as ffxi - dd, tank, healer, support - then every dd will do the same amount of damage and offer equivalent utlity in almost every fight. The difference between the dd's is both their mechanics and playstyle. Not their effectiveness. Likewise for all other archtypes.

There should be no "best at dd / healing / tanking / support" class. Peoples insentive to play a class should not be "if you want to deal the most damage, you play a <x>" or "if you want to tank effectively or on this encounter, you play <a - tank class> not <b - tank class>" it should be "well, i like the mechanics and playstyle of <y>"

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 7:06pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#100 Jun 05 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
That is how subjobs work my friend. Also when incorporate more flexibly in every class the need to have that many classes really disappear, since each class will be a lot more versatile.

I'm not up to date on the current situation in FFXI, but for the two years I played pld/whm were never seen as main healers (or as a good combination at all), Whm/blm never were as nukers, and rng/rdm was an unheard of combination--much less a viable disabler.

When I was playing FFXI if you were a paladin you were always a tank and only a tank. Maybe on certain HNMs you would be able to build 300% TP for spirits within, but for almost the entire game you tanked. I doubt much has changed about this, but if paladins are now considered competent primary healers or DPS or anything other than tanks please inform me that I am wrong.
Times have changed and so has ffxi. There is a post in ffxi general related to the changes you should read.
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#101 Jun 05 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:

Quote:
It's done already in FFXI, most of the high end content nowadays are instance based but I still like those few outdoor to remain, as it adds a flavor to the game that WoW does not have.


Yeah, to expand on my post (since i was running out of time on lunch break):
The world should be seamless - the boss / dungeon content should be instanced. To put this in an example in ffxi - Davoi, Castle Ort, etc should be instanced.


/sigh

I am still seeing a lot of posts with people complaining about stuff that either wasn't a problem with the game or was fixed years ago..

Why instance the beastmens home turf when it plays such an integral roll in campaign battle? Campaign is by definition a world wide PVE wintergrasp and I prefer it this way. Also too the fewer locations like this I can choose to take an xp party greatly effects my options further exasperating one of the games major flaws where we all simply went to kill birds for merits rather than go anywhere else.

As a beastmaster one of the most fun aspects about the game was exploring in search of viable solo camps back in the day...

Sure put instance portals IN these locations but for god sakes don't consolidate the entire world into a giant series of portals to go anywhere interesting.

Applying one blanket solution for everything is folly.

And this stance that running instances was gear dependant EVEN MORE so than running merits is simply not true. Not only do people run very harsh gear checks they also have to KNOW THE INSTANCE BY heart just to get their foot in the door. WoWs elitism is just as prevalent, probably even worse than I remembered it being with merits in FFXI.

I don't even remember people running gear checks to do mission instances in FFXI... And at least if you played a class that was not desired for meriting you had campaign, soloing, besieged ect... There were other things to do to get the same result!

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 6:42pm by thorazinekizzez
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