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#102 Jun 05 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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sigh

I am still seeing a lot of posts with people complaining about stuff that either wasn't a problem with the game or was fixed years ago..


The world in ffxi is not seamless - it is zoned. Technically, each zone is an instance in a sense i suppose. Hence why i would rather they take from wow and have a seamless world and use instances for content instead.

It's not a problem per say, but it is certainly not fixed since you still "zone" to new areas.

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Why instance the beastmens home turf when it plays such an integral roll in campaign battle? Campaign is by definition a world wide PVE wintergrasp and I prefer it this way. Also too the fewer locations like this I can choose to take an xp party greatly effects my options further exasperating one of the games major flaws where we all simply went to kill birds for merits rather than go anywhere else.


If i were to make a new game from ffxi's setting, i would have had the beastmen home turf be a dungeon. That is why i suggested that - i think it would be a very interesting dungeon crawl - and relevant to story / campaign as you can have missions that send you into certain areas of their turf to take out key leaders at paced level ranges.

Likewise, using phased technology which has been introduced into wow - say a Sandoria mission has you take out the front outposts of Davoi and the outpost Captain - in an instance you can have that camp be destroyed everytime you come back after you complete that mission. Say for the next mission you invade the outer wall, you do the assault and instead of walking past lower mobs which ignore you because they are "too weak" you instead walk past the burning wreckage of the outpost and pass by corpses. All this in groups of course (with mission selection so everyone in the group is on the same page).

Again, just my opinion, but i saw there being a good amount of story / content that could be placed in there, other then simply being a concentrated beastman home. I think it would add alot of immersion into the game if done properly.


Edit:

Oh yeah, one more thing i would pull from wow:

Stat transparency. The character sheet on wow lists everything relevant to your character. I would like that in ffxi - knowning how much my crit rate, hit rate and damage range is. Of course, it would have to be adjusted to whatever mechanics ffxiv has, but the principle is what is important.

Basically, i shouldn't have to run a parse to determine my hit rate on exp mobs, or to tell the effect that +10 to a stat has. Parsing has it's place, and should not be removed totally - but for general purposes it should be clear what stats and gear does for your character.

Again, not saying you are blind in ffxi - but having the effects of stats be more user friendly would go aways.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 7:03pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#103 Jun 05 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
Only for XP and simple quests, nothing else. Also earn more xp/hour if your group instead of solo to promote grouping.


I disagree. Earn equal xp/hour so that everyone feels like they have viable options to progress. Most people don't want to be in groups all the time and they simultaneously don't want to feel like they're being penalized from every angle because they opt for the solo route. There are ways to add incentive to group play without interfering with the fundamental reason for the activity.

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Instancing - content should be considered hard by the difficulty of the encounter, not by the difficulty of getting the claim.


It's done already in FFXI, most of the high end content nowadays are instance based but I still like those few outdoor to remain, as it adds a flavor to the game that WoW does not have.


I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but there are quite a few outdoor bosses in WoW that require groups (sometimes very large groups) to kill. The difference is, the itemization for the game at that level is such that it doesn't create an enormous amount of competition for the outdoor mobs. If you decide that you and your in-game group (guild/LS/whatever) want to try to take on one of the harder outdoor mobs, chances are pretty good that you'll have an opportunity to do so within 2-3 days (as opposed to months upon months without ever managing a claim). Again...it isn't necessary to impose enormous artificial blocks to access the content, and it tends to make for bitter players if those blocks are in place.

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If you make them respawn faster there is no point in them being a NM, the NM tag indicates that it has potentially really good item and thus it’s hard to get. If everyone could just stay in a line and get it without even breaking a sweat on endure any kind of competition over it then it would really be meaningless. Also you refer to the outdoor NM:s now, and once again most of the high end content nowadays in FFXI is instance based. There will be some gear you need to get from these NM:s but the majority of your gear will come from instance based events, we do want a healthy mix of both type of events, instanced and outdoor.


The primary issue with NMs in FFXI wasn't even an NM issue. It was an itemization and drop rate issue. If you offer robust itemization, you don't have every Tom, ****, and Harry of a particular class feeling like they need a certain piece of mid-level gear in order to pull their weight in a group. You can have very good mid-level gear that is sought after and that people are willing to invest a significant amount of time to get, but FFXI simply didn't give enough options to the players. You had the best or you were gimp, and that was a sentiment widely held by the playerbase. People quite often spent countless hours camping NMs or grinding for gil not because that's what they wanted to do, but because they didn't want to deal with the grief they got in groups for not having the best.

All too often in FFXI, successfully clearing content yielded no significant reward, and that's just poor game design.

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Gear - Make there be progression, but not inflation. A lvl 20 peice of gear should be replaced by lvl 25 / 30, not carried over to near level cap. Conversely, gear should be a factor, but it should not exclipse your character.


Again this is a system that WoW has adapted, and not FFXI, both system works in their own way, and you want that FF should copy WoW in this matter, but I have to disagree here since I think the current FF11 works fine. WoW on the other hand resets your gear every 6 month, no thanks to that. That’s one of the point in playing another MMO, you don’t want a copy of another MMO, at least try to make it as different as possible.


It's one thing if you want to offer a comparison and your opinion based on that comparison, it's another thing when you're using false information upon which to base your comparison.

Gear does not reset in WoW. It's not like a new tier of content comes out and you're stripped of your gear and have to start over with a naked toon. Again, if you play to enhance your e-peen and having the "best" is one of your favorite ways to do that, progression is going to irk you. If you play to experience the content, gear becomes a means to and end. In most MMOs (not just WoW), gear is just another way to progress your character. FFXI has merits so that you can continue to develop your character once you reach the level cap. It's the itemization in FFXI (or lack thereof) that causes people to cling to the gear they get in sheer terror that something might come along that will entail another 2 year grind for them to get. If you progress itemization along a gradual curve that goes beyond "gimp or great" with no in between, you get less loot whoring, less drama over loot, and less burnt out players leaving the game.

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Communication - talk to us. Engage in discussion with us. Use a test live server with player feed back and listen to us!


To some degree yes, but not as WoW has turned out, where its player base naggings on the forum have made Blizzard change the game into a mess it is today.


Sorry, but that's wrong too. Blizzard listens to its players, but they don't just make changes because that's what the most vocal segment of the population is screaming about in a given week. They listen to what players are saying, they compare it to their own data, and they decide where they want to go from there. PvP in WoW is broken right now because Blizzard overhauled all of the classes just prior to the most recent expansion and it's taking them some time to observe how those changes are being employed by the characters, how itemization is impacting the different classes, and how much is actually class imbalance vs. players still learning how to get the most out of their class.

Blizzard is having a hard time balancing end-game PvE content right now because Ulduar is the first raid dungeon they've made that involves numerous bosses each with their own "normal" and "hard mode" encounter options. They're making an enormous effort to see to it that end-game raid content has something for everyone who wants to raid, not just the hardcore min-maxers who raid 5-6 nights a week for 6 hours at a stretch, and they have **** good reason for doing so. It takes a very substantial amount of time to develop a raid instance...why would they spend that kind of development time and money on content that only 5% of the playerbase will ever have a chance to see? Blizzard is treading new ground with the current tier of PvE end-game content, and I reckon they're entitled to some time to work out all of the kinks.


Edited, Jun 5th 2009 4:28pm by AureliusSir

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 4:28pm by AureliusSir
#104 Jun 05 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Default
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The world in ffxi is not seamless - it is zoned. Technically, each zone is an instance in a sense i suppose. Hence why i would rather they take from wow and have a seamless world and use instances for content instead.

It's not a problem per say, but it is certainly not fixed since you still "zone" to new areas.


I never really saw the charm in the zonelessness of WoW. It was cute for the few few days, but then you started quickly seeing the lack of immersion it forced. Things like dungeons looking one way from the outside and changing completed when you entered (looking at you Naxx). Other area which should be HUGE are instead forced to be small for the need of gameplay speed. Then there was the matter that there still was zone lines, and the expandability of the system came into serious question with them. Places like the new BC starting area, despite being part of the old world, have to be zoned into. Northren too is disconnected, forcing you to use a boat.

And, in the end, what exactly did it give us? Basically, a few seconds less load screen. Big deal. I think I'd be just as happy if they just smoothed out that loading, provide say a small cinematic of your character crossing the plains or something.
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#105 Jun 05 2009 at 3:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Building off of portions of Aurelius' post I think the litmus test of content is whether or not players would still engage in it with no reward. If players are willing to participate in content without being offered some piece of awesome gear, then clearly they enjoy the content pure because it is fun. If they wouldn't, then all you have is a needless time waster. Games, and I can't believe I have to say this, should be about fun.

Would people camp NM for 24 hours straight if that NM didn't drop any loot? Would people farm for hours every day if they couldn't spend the money on a Hauby +1? Clearly those activities aren't fun and should be eliminated, right? Is there anyone here who really thinks MMORPGs should be filled with activities people engage in solely to get loot? Should playing an MMORPG be a chore?

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 6:47pm by Allegory
#106 Jun 05 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Derekloffin wrote:

And, in the end, what exactly did it give us? Basically, a few seconds less load screen. Big deal. I think I'd be just as happy if they just smoothed out that loading, provide say a small cinematic of your character crossing the plains or something.


Load screens are soooooooooooo 20th century. I can't imagine a sane, rational argument for why you would want load screens in a game that is intended to create the sensation of taking place in a massive world. There are situations where it makes sense and where it's unavoidable, but with current technology there is absolutely no reason why a developer can't create a huge, diverse world with only a minimal use of load screens.
#107 Jun 05 2009 at 4:08 PM Rating: Default
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Load screens are soooooooooooo 20th century. I can't imagine a sane, rational argument for why you would want load screens in a game that is intended to create the sensation of taking place in a massive world. There are situations where it makes sense and where it's unavoidable, but with current technology there is absolutely no reason why a developer can't create a huge, diverse world with only a minimal use of load screens.


But that's just it, the lack of zones in WoW did NOT give me the sense of being in a massive world, but rather in a tiny world with many flaws.

Like I said, take a look at Naxx. It should be HUGE from the outside. Instead, it's tiny. The indoor hub part of naxx is basically as large as the entire exterior.

Then you get the troll dungeons, which have outdoor sections, which by all rights I should be able to see and get to via the air outside, but are mysteriously absent. Nevermind the issue of most towns being little more the truck stops they are so small. Only the main cities are respectably large.

Zoneless completely destroyed the sense of scale to the world and all it gave me was a few seconds less load screens (and WoW still has load screens, so you still encounter them).

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 5:13pm by Derekloffin
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#108 Jun 05 2009 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Derekloffin wrote:
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Load screens are soooooooooooo 20th century. I can't imagine a sane, rational argument for why you would want load screens in a game that is intended to create the sensation of taking place in a massive world. There are situations where it makes sense and where it's unavoidable, but with current technology there is absolutely no reason why a developer can't create a huge, diverse world with only a minimal use of load screens.


But that's just, the lack of zones in WoW did NOT give me the sense of being in a massive world, but rather in a tiny world with many flaws.


Were we playing the same game? Run from Winterspring to Tanaris, or Light's Hope Chapel to Booty Bay and count the number of load screens you encounter along the way. Then tell me if the trip made the world feel small.

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Like I said, take a look at Naxx. It should be HUGE from the outside. Instead, it's tiny. The indoor hub part of naxx is basically as large as the entire exterior.


Wait...are you arguing for load screens, or against them? Not sure if you ever really noticed this, but Bastok doesn't scale with the areas around it in North and South Gustaberg, either.

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Then you get the troll dungeons, which have outdoor sections, which by all rights I should be able to see and get to via the air outside, but are mysteriously absent. Nevermind the issue of most towns being little more the truck stops they are so small. Only the main cities are respectably large.


Ya, you should be able to see them from the outside if it weren't for the cleverly placed mountains and cliffs blocking your path. On the other hand, if you wanted to talk about an area like Hellfire Citadel you'd see a fairly decent implementation of instanced content that merges very well with the exterior world.

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Zoneless completely destroyed the sense of scale to the world and all it gave me was a few seconds less load screens (and WoW still has load screens, so you still encounter them).


I'm sorry, but that's just a horrible narrow and flawed argument. An entire game world consisting of four continents and you pick one raid dungeon as your only viable example of some botched scaling to argue against the benefits of a load-screen-free outside world...just not really a very good argument.
#109 Jun 05 2009 at 4:52 PM Rating: Default
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I'm not going to get into a big long argument with you. The fact remains that zoneless did NOT give me a sense scale, it instead ruined it. FFXI isn't perfect either, not by a long shot, but lack of zoneless wasn't it's problem. WoW's strength also isn't it zoneless nature (or quasi-zoneless nature since it still feature many zone lines).

I simple don't see the big deal about zoneless.

BTW, I'm speaking of Drak'Tharon Keep on the edge between Grizzly Hills and Zul'Drak, which has a large outdoor section to the dungeon, yet despite the fact that you can fly all around said dungeon, that outdoor section is completely absent (and once again the dungeon is much smaller on the outside than on the inside).
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#110 Jun 05 2009 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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I will say one thing WoW had going for it was castle-like structures integrated into many of the zones. (ones you didn't have to zone into) I did like the zoneless nature, although I'm not against zones either. Something I'd really like to see are buildings with doors that can be opened seamlessly. While the castles in WoW were neat, nothing seemed to have any doors. I know there were doors but I'd have liked to see more. It would be a problem with people blocking them, though. Highly interactive environments are difficult in MMOs because of people being jerks (I'm defining highly interactive as moveable/climbable/interactable objects that can influence players [doors] and can be influenced by players [also doors].
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#111Maldavian, Posted: Jun 05 2009 at 5:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) "Listen to what players are saying". So if you have 95% of your player base beening casual, of course Blizzard is going to listen to them, it would be suicide not to. Since WoW has such a fragile player base with huge turn over in its player base they can never ignore what they want.
#112 Jun 05 2009 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Derekloffin wrote:
I'm not going to get into a big long argument with you. The fact remains that zoneless did NOT give me a sense scale, it instead ruined it. FFXI isn't perfect either, not by a long shot, but lack of zoneless wasn't it's problem. WoW's strength also isn't it zoneless nature (or quasi-zoneless nature since it still feature many zone lines).


I'm sorry, but if being able to walk from one end of a large continent to the other without encountering a single loading screen doesn't make you feel like you're a character in a very large world, I'm not sure what ever would.

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I simple don't see the big deal about zoneless.


Not talking about zoneless...talking about seamless...ie. no loading screens. That's the definition of seamless when you're talking about zones in an MMO. You can be standing in one spot, cross over an invisible line and you're in an entirely different zone but there's no loading screen to signify that you've crossed over.

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BTW, I'm speaking of Drak'Tharon Keep on the edge between Grizzly Hills and Zul'Drak, which has a large outdoor section to the dungeon, yet despite the fact that you can fly all around said dungeon, that outdoor section is completely absent (and once again the dungeon is much smaller on the outside than on the inside).


I'm not going to disagree with you; it's imperfect implementation. Implemented consistently and properly, a seamless outdoor world with loading screens used sparingly is, to me, far more preferable than having to pass through 5 loading screens in the process of running from the center of a continent to one of its outside edges.
#113 Jun 05 2009 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

I disagree. Earn equal xp/hour so that everyone feels like they have viable options to progress. Most people don't want to be in groups all the time and they simultaneously don't want to feel like they're being penalized from every angle because they opt for the solo route. There are ways to add incentive to group play without interfering with the fundamental reason for the activity.


Again, you can choose an MMO that offers that, this does not necessary mean that FF14 should offer that. SE want to do something different yet in almost all your post you strive for wanting FF14 to incorporate as much from WoW as possible, making it basically a WoW clone. Pointless really.


And all you seem to want is a hardcore MMO aimed at people with altogether too much time on their hands. The aspects that I advocate are components within an MMO that demonstrated that those components provide a large spectrum of players with variety and entertainment. I use WoW as reference only...if SE wanted to achieve the same result, there's no shortage of ways they could implement it and I'd be just as happy. Get over it.

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Yes it is necessary since it gives a nice variation to the game, as opposed to WoW where every end game content is instanced.


Did you not read the paragraph I wrote before you responded to it? I said that there are outdoor monsters in WoW that require coordinated endgame groups to kill (not many yet in WotLK, but there were two in TBC.) Guess what? Hardly anyone ever fought them. You know why? Because there was more diversity and variety in the instanced content and they didn't have to worry about scheduling an event to kill something that may or may not be present for them to kill.

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Once again, you try to convince people that WoW with all its endgame content being instanced is the right path. The problem that you don’t seem to understand is that there are people who love the idea of camping, of trying to claim HNM day in and out not everyone likes the way WoW is.


Yes, and there are people who huff gasoline, but they are in the minority and I would not recommend it to anyone.

Hardcore = minority. Period. You don't make an MMO to cater to a minority if you want to be successful.

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And that is why FFXI looks the way it does today, it caters both side of the coin, gives the players to choose what endgame content they want to engage, the instanced ones or the highly competitive outdoor one. You basically want to remove the hardcore parts of FF14 and make it so called “accessible” to all and everyone by making it instance based just like WoW. So at the end of the day, what you wanted was a WoW copy, and again I’m not buying into that. “Hardcore” for you is try a boss in an instance, whilst “hardcore” in FFXI is the thrill or taking a NM that a lot of people are competing for. Two different types of play style and two different types of MMO:s


Who said I want to remove hardcore? I sure as **** didn't. I've said that you can't build a game around hardcore. I've said that if you want to be successful, you have to appeal to a broad spectrum of players. Content for hardcore players has to be an afterthought. It has to be something the devs tack on to throw the hardcore players a bone, not the opposite. If you build a game around hardcore play and toss in a casual bit here and there, you are going to alienate an enormous segment of your potential playerbase. SE said they want this to be the best Final Fantasy title ever, not the best sequel to FFXI we could hope to make. I ***********-tee you that the people who enjoyed Final Fantasy in any of its incarnations and would like to be able to continue enjoying it through FFXIV are only comprised of a very small minority of hardcore players that are going to think camping for hours to compete for a boss claim or a two year grind for a weapon is a neat idea.

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Hmm I wouldn’t say that, it’s really easy to get a LS and do sky/sea/dynamis etc etc even if you have bad gear to start with. I think what you refer to is solo gaming in FFXI where the only choice of getting some of those rare items was to camp NM's. Again this is a more group/raid oriented game and if you are in a LS then getting gear is not a problem at all.


BS. I'm telling you how it was...and maybe it's changed for the mid-levels, but my entire time playing FFXI, players all over the **** place felt compelled to spend dozens of hours doing things they didn't want to do just so that they wouldn't have to deal with elitist pricks in groups giving them a hard time. I was never the kind of person to inspect gear and turn people away because they didn't have BiS all over their level 40 toon, but there were tons of people who did.

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No, this prevents the notion that all and everyone gets an upgrade with minimum take invested to get the item, again a reference to how WoW is. Hardcore Vs Casual.


There's a pretty fine line between "minimum time invested" and "brutally pointless time sink." FFXI is too far on the brutally pointless side of that line. You can argue that WoW is "too easy" all you want...you're in the severe minority of MMO gamers if you think that downing a boss that took you 20 hours worth of trigger farming in order to get a fistful of gil and a wind crystal is in any way, shape, or form good game design.

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Gear does not reset in WoW.


Really ? So do you use any gear from WoW pre 60 ? what about WoW TBC ? No ?
Oh, I though you said WoW does not reset gear. Again you compare FFXI to WoW as to say that Gear should be attained easily because its how WoW progression works, threw Gear upgrade. In FFXI you have meritsystem as well, which WoW doesnt have.


It's not a gear reset. You simply progress to something better. A gear reset is when they strip your gear and make you start over, or they nerf the **** out of your gear so that they can release gear with the same stats as your pre-nerf gear and make you go earn it again. Just because your gear is no longer the best the game has to offer does NOT mean it has been reset. Again, get over it.

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Again this is a harcore game and once again, you want to soften the mechanics in this game to suit your type of playstyle.


No, I don't give a rats *** what SE does with FFXI. I'm talking about what I want to see in FFXIV, and using WoW and FFXI as comparison. There's a difference.

Keep in mind...you're not in the FFXI forums. If you think everything discussed here are ideas being put forth to change FFXI, you're none too bright.

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"Listen to what players are saying". So if you have 95% of your player base beening casual, of course Blizzard is going to listen to them, it would be suicide not to. Since WoW has such a fragile player base with huge turn over in its player base they can never ignore what they want.


Seriously? Don't ever go into business. No really. With that attitude, you'll lose your shirt.

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Once again FF14 with incorporated mechanism and game system from WOW is not going to be a successful story, and SE knows this.


And they also know that a game that caters primarily to the hardcore element is not going to be a successful story.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 6:55pm by AureliusSir
#114Maldavian, Posted: Jun 05 2009 at 6:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I think its pointless to argue with you at this point in time AureliusSir, since you have set your mind on how you think FF14 should be like, and what I think it will be like. And I guess we both are wasting our time arguing back and forth. At the end of the day we just have to wait and see how the game have been built up and then we can continue our discussions :D
#115 Jun 05 2009 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
I think its pointless to argue with you at this point in time AureliusSir, since you have set your mind on how you think FF14 should be like, and what I think it will be like. And I guess we both are wasting our time arguing back and forth. At the end of the day we just have to wait and see how the game have been built up and then we can continue our discussions :D


I'll spare you that anticipation...

Told ya so.

There ya go. Happy hunting.
#116 Jun 05 2009 at 6:50 PM Rating: Default
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Childish much?
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#117 Jun 05 2009 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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dyvidd wrote:
Childish much?


Yes.

Next question?
#118 Jun 05 2009 at 7:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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The idea that WoW can't be hardcore is stupid. There are plenty of hardcore players going after hardcore challenges. Right now, the hardest boss in WoW is Heroic hard-mode Algalon. He has been downed exactly once, by a single guild. The guild that downed him is, literally, full of professional players. As in, they get paid to play. It took them hundreds and hundreds of attempts, and they were at it for overtime shifts. You gonna tell me this is casual?

The difference is that in FFXI, this sort of effort was required to decently equip your level 50 MNK. Only instead of effort, you had to spend hour after tedious hour staring into space, waiting for the one monster that might drop the only decent piece of gear for a slot to pop. Then gilsellers claimed it, because the only skill required to kill that monster was having the fastest reaction time, and bots beat humans for that any day. Settle in for another 3 hour wait! **** buddy, that's some real hardcore play right there!

You want a game that is exclusively for the hardcore. I want a game that is for both casual and hardcore. Furthermore, I want the hardcore content to be difficult because of challenging content. You want a game that's hardcore because you spend over half your time waiting around, and even when you do something successfully you only have a 10% chance of getting any reward.

Here's a clue: asking for a game that is hard because it contains difficult challenges, rather than a game that's hard because your eyes go blurry after staring at the same spot for four hours, is not asking for WoW-style design. It's asking for sane design.
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#119 Jun 05 2009 at 7:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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The biggest thing SE can learn from Blizzard is a group of people THAT ACTUALLY TALK TO THE COMMUNITY. Everyday they are there reading posts, making jokes, and saying "Soon". SE does not seem to realize just how important it is to listen and talk back to the community. I mean let's take for example SMN, this class has been need of a buff/overhaul since its first implementation... and yet years have gone by with little (lolhaste) to no change.

For FFXIV, SE HAS to listen to the community. Give us a bone ;0

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 11:37pm by kikyuras
#120 Jun 05 2009 at 7:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm surprised this thread is still going. Here's what I see going on:

Poor Aurelius is still trying to get his points across and they are sadly falling on deaf ears.

The folks who are basically saying that FFXIV should be a copy of FFXI because WoW is *too easy*, *full of retards and children*, or *you get too much stuff too fast (read: isn't enough of a time sink)*, really need to take a breath and look at what they are arguing for.

If any of you are seriously hoping that mobs like ******* Mee Deggi, who has an essential piece of equipment for martial arts jobs that you will almost literally NEVER TAKE OFF makes it into this game, you need your ******* head examined. You can potentially camp that ****** for 6 hours a night for two weeks straight and have nothing to show for it but impact knuckles. There are more people who WALK AWAY from a game with that kind of content than stay, and the subscription numbers reflect that. Besides that, we shouldn't be seeing anyone at level ******* 75 wearing a level 34 kote because there should be some god **** progression! Content like that has to go.

And for those of you spouting that group content should be the focus in the next game because that's the focus in FFXI, need to take a serious look at FoV and how people are using it. La Theine tonight is PACKED on my server and the dunes is empty.

If you give folks solo content, there's a **** of a lot of people who are going to use it. There were more people in La Theine soloing or duoing than there were in the Dunes partying, and that speaks volumes for the preferences of players.

Guys, people are having FUN out there with the solo content. They can play it when they want, not when the spawn window is open or bird camp doesn't have a double bard party. That's a ******* beautiful thing.

People are having FUN with FoV, and with Campaign, two HUGE wins for this game. They were fantastic ideas! And ideas like this should be ENCOURAGED because this is what will make or break the next game. FFXI has a very bad reputation and has for many years. FFXIV is going to carry that stigma, and has a lot to overcome.

I think that SE realized that the solo content was too little, too late to save the business they lost in this game, but with careful planning and good advertising, they can turn that around and start to really give Blizzard a run for their money. Let's face it, Blizzard throws the word Epic around an awful lot, but Final Fantasy is the epitome of Epic, it defined the word. And when a game of Epic proportions actually encourages a player to keep playing by rewarding them with improvements to their character and a story that moves their soul...

Well, we all win. FFXI only got it half right. FFXIV can get all of it right. Let's not keep FFXIV crushed under the shadow of XI. Let it be its own game.
#121 Jun 05 2009 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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2,890 posts
KacesofCaitsith wrote:

The world in ffxi is not seamless - it is zoned. Technically, each zone is an instance in a sense i suppose. Hence why i would rather they take from wow and have a seamless world and use instances for content instead.

It's not a problem per say, but it is certainly not fixed since you still "zone" to new areas.


Ok I suggest you research the FUNDEMENTAL difference between real time streaming Zones, Zones that are loaded when activating a trigger and instances. There is no "I suppose" in this case because the definition is solid.

Instances are defined primarily by the fact that they are created especially for the people who enter them. Unless the "Zones" you are referring to are locations in the world that are created on the fly for the people who enter them and are erased when it is no longer needed then it is not considered an instance.

White gate, for example, is not an instance in any way shape or form...

Now I do agree that streaming the world is vastly superior method of handling world loading it also does not get away from the entire concept of ZONES VS INSTANCES...

Streaming of the world is very big deal and it would be folly for SE to have not included it into the game in some way. However its also not the end all be all of game play and depth when considering FFXIs weak points and/or strengths..
#122 Jun 05 2009 at 8:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thora, it's a time sink. That's what he is is getting at, it's an antiquated time sink that we no longer need because the technology has moved beyond the need for waiting an extra 30+ seconds while the game downloads info from the server and loads it into resident memory. He was trying to explain what he meant in a way that would make it clear where the boundaries should lie. Zones should be seamless, because nobody wants to wait 30+ seconds to start moving again. Dungeons should be instanced, because nobody wants to deal with jacked dungeons anymore. That's basically it.

I swear some of you are so caught up in fighting against the "people who want to make a WoW clone" that you are missing even the most basic of points.
#123 Jun 05 2009 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
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22,699 posts
Quote:
I'm sorry, but if being able to walk from one end of a large continent to the other without encountering a single loading screen doesn't make you feel like you're a character in a very large world, I'm not sure what ever would.


I'm sorry, but that just makes absolutely no sense. What do load screens have at all to do with how big the world was? Or even how it was perceived? What makes it seem like my character was in a very large world was when I chocobo'd from windurst to sandy. I went across a huge amount of land. What made it feel like my character was in a very large world was when I took a bat from underworld to some flightmaster waaay down near the end of the continent and it took me at least 15 minutes to get there. Zoning or no Zoning has nothing to do with the size of the world. It's not like when you zoned you magically transported yourself 20 miles, after each zone you could clearly see that you were maybe 50 to 100 feet max from where you just were. It's not like everything shrunk or grew every time you zoned, it was pretty clear what size everything was and that everything matched up perfectly.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 12:44am by Deadgye
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#124 Jun 05 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Default
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MrSenethSomed wrote:

The difference is that in FFXI, this sort of effort was required to decently equip your level 50 MNK. Only instead of effort, you had to spend hour after tedious hour staring into space, waiting for the one monster that might drop the only decent piece of gear for a slot to pop. Then gilsellers claimed it, because the only skill required to kill that monster was having the fastest reaction time, and bots beat humans for that any day. Settle in for another 3 hour wait! **** buddy, that's some real hardcore play right there!


Ok for @#%^ing god sakes how many times has it been said already if you haven't played the game in the last couple of years STFU.. If your point is to argue about what the game was like when you played 2+ expansions ago and countless patches then Good for you.. But its a @#%^ing waste of TEXT either way...

Play the god **** game if you intend to have a some actually useful feedback... The only mobs I think that still have this style of play are @#%^ing level 80 HNMs... Charby and ground kings as far as I can remember. Moldy could be a pain in the *** to get but its a 2 hour repop in an area that's also nice to farm. ONE EARRING IN THE ENTIRE GAME has yet to be updated.

News flash, people have enjoyed running INSTANCES to get the Okote, PCC, Leaping boots, Kraken clubs you are refering to. For @#%^s sake they even stripped the old mobs you camped from their actual valuable DROPS so the only people who actually camp the **** things either already have the item or actually NEED IT && are @#%^ing retards..

YYYEEEEEAAAAAAARRRRSS AGGOOOO!!!

Torrence wrote:
Thora, it's a time sink. That's what he is is getting at, it's an antiquated time sink that we no longer need because the technology has moved beyond the need for waiting an extra 30+ seconds while the game downloads info from the server and loads it into resident memory. He was trying to explain what he meant in a way that would make it clear where the boundaries should lie. Zones should be seamless, because nobody wants to wait 30+ seconds to start moving again. Dungeons should be instanced, because nobody wants to deal with jacked dungeons anymore. That's basically it.

I swear some of you are so caught up in fighting against the "people who want to make a WoW clone" that you are missing even the most basic of points.


Nobody does
I certainly don't want loading screens on everything. I also expect with little worry at all that FFXIV will stream the world just like WoW. It goes without saying IMO. Flying around in airships that don't use fake backdrops and being able to see people running around below. Its an absolutely must have modern feature.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 12:48am by thorazinekizzez
#125 Jun 05 2009 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I get what Aureluis is saying. He loves soloing, he loves instances, he love alot of things WoW has to offer. He wants to see all those things in SE's next MMO project. Fine, that's his opinion.

There are a lot of people who love PT xping, ppl who love NMs, ppl who love how FFXI was made. People need to accept that fact too.

The problem is when people can't accept this fact. Their way has to be the only right way and won't hear otherwise. Who's to say Solo > PT for xping?

I know I meet a lot of cool people while in a XP PT and that is who I got my first LS. Normally I'm a shy person, not very social with ppl. When I played SWG before FFXI came out I kept to myself, only interacting with ppl to buy items. I was still this way in FFXI at the first till I was forced to interact with other player to get xp and it was the best thing that SE could have done for me. Got me out of my shell and because of it I still keep it touch with those friend I meet over 6 years ago in Vana'diel. That is why I prefer pt over solo play.

The two years I played WoW with some co-works, I didn't interact with many ppl because frankly solo was better for leveling than grouping. Sure I did instances but never meet any people I would group with again. Yep, I was in that shell of mine and never had to get out. By the end when I made 80 I didn't make any new friends except my co works and my LS mate that played WoW. Never found a good social guild to just BS in. Really I just didn't like WoW because of this.

The point? Everyone body has their own story to tell and reasons to why they prefer one thing over another. You need to accept this fact.

This video is a classic among the FFXI community and sums up beautifully who they feel about their game. It was done by a JP player when the game was first release and might give you some insight into the JP culture and how they want to play the game. I hope you enjoy and take something from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARghlVjBab0
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#126 Jun 05 2009 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
I'm sorry, but if being able to walk from one end of a large continent to the other without encountering a single loading screen doesn't make you feel like you're a character in a very large world, I'm not sure what ever would.


I'm sorry, but that just makes absolutely no sense. What do load screens have at all to do with how big the world was? Or even how it was perceived? What makes it seem like my character was in a very large world was when I chocobo'd from windurst to sandy. I went across a huge amount of land. What made it feel like my character was in a very large world was when I took a bat from underworld to some flightmaster waaay down near the end of the continent and it took me at least 15 minutes to get there. Zoning or no Zoning has nothing to do with the size of the world. It's not like when you zoned you magically transported yourself 20 miles, after each zone you could clearly see that you were maybe 50 to 100 feet max from where you just were. It's not like everything shrunk or grew every time you zoned, it was pretty clear what size everything was and that everything matched up perfectly.


Ya know, when you put it that way I can sort of see your point. I mean really, loading screens don't detract from the experience at all. When I leave for work in the morning, I get a loading screen at the front door. It makes sense...I'm leaving the house zone and entering the neighborhood zone. A little while later I black out and all of a sudden I'm in the city zone..I know I just crossed over that imaginary boundary between the two areas so it doesn't really freak me out. Same thing happens when I walk into the door at work...10 second blackout and everything is fine again.

Now that I see your point about how zoning doesn't detract from the experience in any way, I fully understand. Thanks.
#127 Jun 05 2009 at 9:03 PM Rating: Good
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2,010 posts
thorazinekizzez wrote:


Ok for @#%^ing god sakes how many times has it been said already if you haven't played the game in the last couple of years STFU.. If your point is to argue about what the game was like when you played 2+ expansions ago and countless patches then Good for you.. But its a @#%^ing waste of TEXT either way...

Play the god **** game if you intend to have a some actually useful feedback... The only mobs I think that still have this style of play are @#%^ing level 80 HNMs... Charby and ground kings as far as I can remember. Moldy could be a pain in the *** to get but its a 2 hour repop in an area that's also nice to farm. ONE EARRING IN THE ENTIRE GAME has yet to be updated.


Thora.... Have YOU ever played Monk?

First, you need to camp two NM rams for the Purple Belt. Against everyone who is farming rams for other things and who will kill it *just because* Then, you need to camp THREE NMS for the Brown Belt, one of which is a 24 hour pop, and everyone is on that one, whether its for the quest to use, or the belt to sell. Also during this you need to camp Mee Deggi (Who came immediately to mind when I read this post) to get the O Kotes. EVERYONE AND THEIR BROTHER CAMPS THIS! There's a lot of camping going on to get to be a reasonably geared level 50 monk. You are looking at several weeks minimum. Sure you can buy the belts, but you have to do the quest progression if you ever want to get the Black Belt quest, and holy @#%^ if you ever try to finish THAT one without paying some HNMLS for the drop from Adamantoise or hope to get a drop from the ksnm. Go Go farming time sink or begging the gods to grant you good luck.

That's all before level 50.

I think that YOU are the one who has no idea what the @#%^ he is talking about.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 1:09am by Torrence
#128 Jun 05 2009 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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2,890 posts
AureliusSir wrote:

Ya know, when you put it that way I can sort of see your point. I mean really, loading screens don't detract from the experience at all. When I leave for work in the morning, I get a loading screen at the front door. It makes sense...I'm leaving the house zone and entering the neighborhood zone. A little while later I black out and all of a sudden I'm in the city zone..I know I just crossed over that imaginary boundary between the two areas so it doesn't really freak me out. Same thing happens when I walk into the door at work...10 second blackout and everything is fine again.

Now that I see your point about how zoning doesn't detract from the experience in any way, I fully understand. Thanks.


Maybe he likes the combat and considers that the focus of the game?

Anyway I think this is a silly debate about the no loading screens making a big difference in an MMO.

Here I can sum it up for everyone. Black Chocobos that can actually fly and take you to locations you normally cant reach. I don't know how any Final Fantasy fan would turn THAT notion down... Your linkshell OWNS AN AIRSHIP and.. Ok cmon now hehe do I need to say more? lol...
#129 Jun 05 2009 at 9:12 PM Rating: Decent
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2,010 posts
thorazinekizzez wrote:

Here I can sum it up for everyone. Black Chocobos that can actually fly and take you to locations you normally cant reach. I don't know how any Final Fantasy fan would turn THAT notion down... Your linkshell OWNS AN AIRSHIP and.. Ok cmon now hehe do I need to say more? lol...



I think that would be awesome lol. Especially if we could decorate the side, we could put Zam FFXIV Forums Subdefault on it and everyone would know when we roll into the city
#130 Jun 05 2009 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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2,890 posts
Torrence wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:


Ok for @#%^ing god sakes how many times has it been said already if you haven't played the game in the last couple of years STFU.. If your point is to argue about what the game was like when you played 2+ expansions ago and countless patches then Good for you.. But its a @#%^ing waste of TEXT either way...

Play the god **** game if you intend to have a some actually useful feedback... The only mobs I think that still have this style of play are @#%^ing level 80 HNMs... Charby and ground kings as far as I can remember. Moldy could be a pain in the *** to get but its a 2 hour repop in an area that's also nice to farm. ONE EARRING IN THE ENTIRE GAME has yet to be updated.


Thora.... Have YOU ever played Monk?

First, you need to camp two NM rams for the Purple Belt. Then, you need to camp THREE NMS for the Brown Belt, one of which is a 24 hour pop. Also during this you need to camp Mee Deggi (Who came immediately to mind when I read this post) to get the O Kotes. There's a lot of camping going on to get to be a reasonably geared level 50 monk. Sure you can buy the belts, but you have to do the quest progression if you ever want to get the Black Belt quest, and holy @#%^ if you ever try to finish THAT one without paying some HNMLS for the drop from Adamantoise or hope to get a drop from the ksnm.

That's all before level 50.

I think that YOU are the one who has no idea what the @#%^ he is talking about.


Sold my brown belt it took a couple days of camping. Was fast as **** way to save up a couple million gill for my PCC because the VINE drops in a KSNM!

Oh and uh and not one of those NMs are needed to be camped before level 75 since its far more time efficient and LOGICAL to buy the belt. since you can farm the gil FAR FAR faster than you can get the drops at level 50 solo since the price of O kote dropped to 90k lol when I needed it to get my samurai sub to 37. I just sold it back for profit. LOL..

Umm see my sig?
Yeah sorry man STFU unless your feedback is accurate from the way the game is today not 3+ years ago..

ok?

edit: Also too.. Why do you believe that you are important enough to have those items as a first time mnk at level 50? That ***** for level 75 people man get a life belt and suck it up for a bit. You were planning ahead to get a black belt at level 50???

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 1:25am by thorazinekizzez
#131 Jun 05 2009 at 9:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,576 posts
dyvidd wrote:
I get what Aureluis is saying. He loves soloing, he loves instances, he love alot of things WoW has to offer. He wants to see all those things in SE's next MMO project. Fine, that's his opinion.

There are a lot of people who love PT xping, ppl who love NMs, ppl who love how FFXI was made. People need to accept that fact too.


The difference is, nobody whom I've seen advocating the benefits of solo play turn around and take shots at the people who prefer xp in a group. I'm critical of the process that is required before you can start to earn xp in a group; namely that it can all-too-frequently take a very long time to find a group...for anything...in any MMO, and the design in FFXI made it such that without that group, there was very little way for someone to progress their character. That's it.

I've never taken shots at people who like to compete for claims on NMs or who prefer their end-game boss mobs to appear on the world map as opposed to instanced content. What I've said is that the wait time coupled with the drop rates and itemization issues make it...again...an issue where it takes altogether too much time to experience the content, and the bulk of that time is neither productive nor entertaining. If I'm playing a game where I have to have the TV on beside me in order to feel entertained, it's a poorly made game...especially when we're talking about an MMO where the entire concept revolves around the idea that it should be engrossing. If you like to compete for claims with other groups, awesome. If the game has more flavor and appeal for you if the bosses you like to fight are available for anyone passing by to see, that's great.

I think it's great that SE had made adjustments to FFXI since I left to accommodate playstyles and interests that were previously excluded from the design. What I'm hoping to see (and fairly confident that we will see) is that SE recognizes that their next MMO has to be built around those new concepts with aspects of some of the older mechanics excluded or put in sparsely for the minority segment of players that actually enjoy it.

Quote:
The problem is when people can't accept this fact. Their way has to be the only right way and won't hear otherwise. Who's to say Solo > PT for xping?


If you read carefully, you'll find it's the FFXI xenophobes cutting down ideas from other MMOs as though a game with more involvement and less grind is somehow unattractive. The advocates of a more casual-friendly game design are simply arguing the points around why "hardcore only" is an absolutely ridiculous way to design an MMO. We're arguing with the FFXI neophytes that no, FFXIV is not being made for the players of FFXI, it's being made for anyone who wants to play it whether they enjoyed (or even played) FFXI or not.

Quote:
I know I meet a lot of cool people while in a XP PT and that is who I got my first LS. Normally I'm a shy person, not very social with ppl. When I played SWG before FFXI came out I kept to myself, only interacting with ppl to buy items. I was still this way in FFXI at the first till I was forced to interact with other player to get xp and it was the best thing that SE could have done for me. Got me out of my shell and because of it I still keep it touch with those friend I meet over 6 years ago in Vana'diel. That is why I prefer pt over solo play.


That's great. And no MMO I would want to play would eliminate the potential for group play. Sadly, when people read someone talking about the benefits of solo play and are dumb enough to assume that we mean there should be no group xp, it just makes them look bad. I don't know how many times I can use the words 'diversity' and 'options' in a single thread and still have mental midgets assuming that I expect a game that includes only solo play, or only instanced content, or only easy access to everything. Balance. Diversity. Options. Win.

Narrow design. Gross repetition. Limited choice of things to do unless specific conditions are met. Lose.

Quote:
The two years I played WoW with some co-works, I didn't interact with many ppl because frankly solo was better for leveling than grouping. Sure I did instances but never meet any people I would group with again. Yep, I was in that shell of mine and never had to get out. By the end when I made 80 I didn't make any new friends except my co works and my LS mate that played WoW. Never found a good social guild to just BS in. Really I just didn't like WoW because of this.


I'm sorry to hear that, and I appreciate that in your case it's a benefit if the game gives you a nudge to get out of your shell and be social. What I advocate is that it shouldn't be up to the game developers to force players to interact. It shouldn't be up to the game developers to place narrow restrictions on access to content. If you give players choice, they'll stick around. If you offer escalating rewards for escalating contribution and achievement, they'll stick around.

Quote:
The point? Everyone body has their own story to tell and reasons to why they prefer one thing over another. You need to accept this fact.


I do. I fully accept that. It's funny that the people advocating diversity and choice are the ones being accused of not accepting that people have their own story and prefer to do things differently. I'll have to remember that.

Quote:
This video is a classic among the FFXI community and sums up beautifully who they feel about their game. It was done by a JP player when the game was first release and might give you some insight into the JP culture and how they want to play the game. I hope you enjoy and take something from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARghlVjBab0


I've already seen it. Many, many times. Now my hope is that SE provides an environment where more people can experience that camaraderie that will attract more people and keep them around longer.
#132 Jun 05 2009 at 9:20 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Ya know, when you put it that way I can sort of see your point. I mean really, loading screens don't detract from the experience at all. When I leave for work in the morning, I get a loading screen at the front door. It makes sense...I'm leaving the house zone and entering the neighborhood zone. A little while later I black out and all of a sudden I'm in the city zone..I know I just crossed over that imaginary boundary between the two areas so it doesn't really freak me out. Same thing happens when I walk into the door at work...10 second blackout and everything is fine again.

Now that I see your point about how zoning doesn't detract from the experience in any way, I fully understand. Thanks.


It takes away from the realism of the game, not the size of the world. Two very distinctly different things. During those 10 seconds you black out when you cross the house zone into the neighborhood zone when you're done with your black out you look back and see, 30 feet back, right where you started blacking out. The world doesn't magically become smaller from these blackouts, it stays exactly the same size. I can't honestly see how you could even start to equate ffxi zoning to "having a smaller perceived world".

Zoning can create a smaller perceived world.. if it's used the same way WoW uses it. It takes all but 10 seconds to zone from one continent to the other, this gives you the feeling that the continents must be very close together and that they map is wrong. You can't look back and see where you just zoned from. When I zone from Upper Jeuno to Batilla Downs I can look back and see, maybe 50-100 yalms away right where I was standing before.
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#133 Jun 05 2009 at 9:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:

Sold my brown belt it took a couple days of camping. Was fast as **** way to save up a couple million gill for my PCC because the VINE drops in a KSNM!

Oh and uh and not one of those NMs are needed to be camped before level 75 since its far more time efficient and LOGICAL to buy the belt. since you can farm the gil FAR FAR faster than you can get the drops since the price of O kote dropped to 90k lol when I needed it to get my samurai sub to 37. I just sold it back for profit. LOL..

Umm see my sig?
Yeah sorry man STFU unless your feedback is accurate from the way the game is today not 3+ years ago..

ok?


How does being level 75 versus 50 make camping any faster? You still have to camp it if you want to get a Black belt.

And I would LOVE to know what server you are on where an O Kote is 90k. I don't think we are talking about the same kote, even when Gilsellers were at the top of their game.

I think you might be a little out of touch there.
#134 Jun 05 2009 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:

Sold my brown belt it took a couple days of camping. Was fast as **** way to save up a couple million gill for my PCC because the VINE drops in a KSNM!

Oh and uh and not one of those NMs are needed to be camped before level 75 since its far more time efficient and LOGICAL to buy the belt. since you can farm the gil FAR FAR faster than you can get the drops since the price of O kote dropped to 90k lol when I needed it to get my samurai sub to 37. I just sold it back for profit. LOL..

Umm see my sig?
Yeah sorry man STFU unless your feedback is accurate from the way the game is today not 3+ years ago..

ok?


How does being level 75 versus 50 make camping any faster? You still have to camp it if you want to get a Black belt.

And I would LOVE to know what server you are on where an O Kote is 90k. I don't think we are talking about the same kote, even when Gilsellers were at the top of their game.

I think you might be a little out of touch there.


The game changed. You run instances for the items now just like wow. Just more annoying and its only one boss fight. If you do kill said NM by camping it you get the rare/ex version that is BOP. Camping the NMs is a mistake period... I am not sure but I think they even made some KSNM 99 drop the black belt items too.

edit again


Quote:
edit: Also too.. Why do you believe that you are important enough to have those items as a first time mnk at level 50? That sh*ts for level 75 people man get a life belt and suck it up for a bit. You were planning ahead to get a black belt at level 50???


Edited, Jun 6th 2009 1:33am by thorazinekizzez
#135 Jun 05 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
It takes away from the realism of the game, not the size of the world. Two very distinctly different things. During those 10 seconds you black out when you cross the house zone into the neighborhood zone when you're done with your black out you look back and see, 30 feet back, right where you started blacking out. The world doesn't magically become smaller from these blackouts, it stays exactly the same size. I can't honestly see how you could even start to equate ffxi zoning to "having a smaller perceived world".


Nobody has said that a seamless zone system makes the world bigger. It makes the world seem bigger because you don't have in-your-face indicators (ie. black screens) that you're passing from one area to the next. It's one big continuous area and the zones exist to distinguish themes and tiers of difficulty (ie. mob levels).

Quote:
Zoning can create a smaller perceived world.. if it's used the same way WoW uses it. It takes all but 10 seconds to zone from one continent to the other, this gives you the feeling that the continents must be very close together and that they map is wrong. You can't look back and see where you just zoned from. When I zone from Upper Jeuno to Batilla Downs I can look back and see, maybe 50-100 yalms away right where I was standing before.


I hear ya...because sitting there watching 10 minutes of open ocean scroll by would add so, so much to my game experience.
#136 Jun 05 2009 at 9:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:

The game changed. You run instances for the items now just like wow. Just more annoying and its only one boss fight. If you do kill said NM by camping it you get the rare/ex version that is BOP. Camping the NMs is a mistake period... I am not sure but I think they even made some KSNM 99 drop the black belt items too.


KSMN.... 99


Do I need to remind you how rare kindred seals are (In five years of playing and 5 75's + merits I have accumulated maybe 200)? And the fact that you need to enlist the aid of other high level players, as well as be a high level player yourself? And even then it's only a chance to get the item you want even though you are spending hard earned currency hoping for. Not to mention you have to be with good friends who won't ninja lot the freaking thing, forget about getting it on your own.

Holy crow do you even hear yourself? Camping the NMs is the only option for a lot of people, on a lot of items.
#137 Jun 05 2009 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:

Maybe he likes the combat and considers that the focus of the game?

Anyway I think this is a silly debate about the no loading screens making a big difference in an MMO.


When you're looking at the full scope of the experience, everything makes a difference. It's the attention to detail on the part of the developers that enriches the experience for the players. Part of crafting a well developed MMO is where you can play it for a good length of time and still find things you haven't noticed before.
#138thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 05 2009 at 9:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ok at this point we are talking about black belt right?
#139 Jun 05 2009 at 9:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Also too.. Why do you believe that you are important enough to have those items as a first time mnk at level 50? That sh*ts for level 75 people man get a life belt and suck it up for a bit. You were planning ahead to get a black belt at level 50???




And you know what? Since you saw fit to mention this TWICE, I will now address it.

Yes, I was planning on a Black Belt, because I researched my job class, and wanted very much to be successful and play the job *right*. Isn't that what all of you are always telling people that they need to do? Not be *gimp*? Play the job *right*? Look at the wiki? Research? Not be noob? Visit the job forums? Thank god for Pahn that's all I have to say.

If I had walked around in a life belt as a level 40 monk people would have been putting screen shots on BG forums, because that's how the asses in this game are.

You can't have it both ways. Either people are allowed to be gimp, or they aren't. Either they are supposed to take pride in their jobs, or they aren't.

And those who want to take pride in their jobs, shouldn't be punished with quests that take weeks on end for no other reason than spawn windows and claim competition. That's all we are saying. If there is a quest specific to a job, let me do the quest, make it a challenge for me to complete using my skill, and I will be happy.

That is all.
#140 Jun 05 2009 at 9:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:

edit: Also too.. Why do you believe that you are important enough to have those items as a first time mnk at level 50? That sh*ts for level 75 people man get a life belt and suck it up for a bit. You were planning ahead to get a black belt at level 50???


Seems kind of ridiculous to me to put a level restriction on a piece of gear you can't get until you're 25 levels above the restriction. More poorly thought out and broken mechanics? Maybe...
#141 Jun 05 2009 at 9:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:

Complaining about not having brown belt at 50 is meh. You want to complain about not having easy access to the best waist slot item in the game period then Id like to make a formal complaint that I was unable to obtain a relic weapon and E body Hauberk to SE myself.

AND WHILE WE ARE AT IT....
Id like to have full tier 8.5 gear be available to me for emblems of heroism THANKS IN ADVANCE!!

All of the must have items below level 60-70 baring like what a moldavite earring can be obtained without camping NMs. The drops are in BCNMs of various levels. Now this one I might be wrong but I cant remember any must have items that force you to camp a NM at lower levels anymore.


Now you are just being ridiculous. All I am saying is a level 40 belt should be attainable by a level 40 character, and the same with the level 34 kote. It really shouldn't be a matter of farming bee chips to buy it and then questing (read: camping) it at 75 because you couldn't integrate it into the story of the job. There is something quite broken about that concept.
#142thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 05 2009 at 9:56 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ah yeah...
#143 Jun 05 2009 at 10:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:

Do you Have capped hand 2 hand merits yet?
OHH FAIL YOU GIMP j/k :P


lol

Look I'm a longtime fan, I just see some things that could be improved, and this NM system with drops that you wear for all eternity is one of them. I mean, a piece of equipment you get at 34 shouldn't be the last piece you get until 73 (if you are lucky/dedicated). And yet, it is. I remember looking everywhere to see if there was going to be a new piece for me, and there just wasn't.

It would be really nice for them to just put a little more thought into gear this time around, because everyone likes to get new and better equipment, and it's kind of disappointing to know that your best piece comes at 34.

What's left to look forward to (barring end game)?

I know what you are saying and I agree that yep, things are not like they were at Na release.. But that doesn't mean that it's flawless.
#144 Jun 05 2009 at 10:07 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Nobody has said that a seamless zone system makes the world bigger. It makes the world seem bigger because you don't have in-your-face indicators (ie. black screens) that you're passing from one area to the next. It's one big continuous area and the zones exist to distinguish themes and tiers of difficulty (ie. mob levels).


And I've stated that it does not make the world seem bigger or smaller. And you've done nothing to combat this statement except make silly analogies that don't help your argument at all. If I was arguing against the realism of zoning vs seamless transitions that analogy would've be great.

Quote:
I hear ya...because sitting there watching 10 minutes of open ocean scroll by would add so, so much to my game experience.


And taking away those 5-10 seconds of walking through that invisible line really takes away so much of your game experience, right? Those extra 10 seconds you "gain" that would be lost anyway covering the same amount of visible distance traveled while zoning really takes a lot out of the world. I really don't get how when you zone somehow you start perceiving the world as smaller. There's no rational way to start thinking that way.

Quote:
Do I need to remind you how rare kindred seals are (In five years of playing and 5 75's + merits I have accumulated maybe 200)?


You have to be doing something wrong. I have 1 75 job, 1 40 job, and only like 3-5 37 jobs. As for merits all I have are 5/5 triple attack, 5/5 feint, 4/5 aura steal, 1/5 *** charge, 8/8 dagger, and 4/4 crit. Yet I still manage to somehow have gotten 308 kindred seals. And no, I do not do a lot of soloing. My parrying skill is still 100 levels under cap because of how little soling I do.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 2:11am by Deadgye
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#145 Jun 05 2009 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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Here's what I would like to see - the *option* to watch that scrolling sea backdrop. That would be cool.

There really are times when I enjoy looking at the scenery, and want to just run around the boat and look. Sometimes I get on the manaclipper just to look at stuff.

It would be a great option to have. Like when you hand in your ticket it could ask if you want to watch the CS or not. If not, you just get off the boat at your destination. If so, then you get to examine the scenery (and I have no doubt this game will have ******* gorgeous scenery).

Would be pretty neat, I think.

But I still think they should do away with *zoning* especially since I miss a lot of linkshell gossip that way.

:P
#146 Jun 05 2009 at 10:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
But I still think they should do away with *zoning* especially since I miss a lot of linkshell gossip that way.


This is actually a problem with their chat system, and not the zoning system. You'll notice that when you do zone in WoW there isn't any mysteriously missing chat log.
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#147 Jun 05 2009 at 10:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Nobody has said that a seamless zone system makes the world bigger. It makes the world seem bigger because you don't have in-your-face indicators (ie. black screens) that you're passing from one area to the next. It's one big continuous area and the zones exist to distinguish themes and tiers of difficulty (ie. mob levels).


And I've stated that it does not make the world seem bigger or smaller. And you've done nothing to combat this statement except make silly analogies that don't help your argument at all. If I was arguing against the realism of zoning vs seamless transitions that analogy would've be great.


When you're confronted with a loading screen every time you enter or exit a zone, you tend to look at a game in terms of zones. When you have a seemless continent, you tend to think of things in terms of the continent and while you might recognize the different zones as you pass through them, it's in the back of your mind. You're on a continent, not in a giant box with outdoor scenery.

Quote:
Quote:
I hear ya...because sitting there watching 10 minutes of open ocean scroll by would add so, so much to my game experience.


And taking away those 5-10 seconds of walking through that invisible line really takes away so much of your game experience, right?


Yes, it does. Or more specifically, it doesn't yoink me out of the scenery and experience for 5-10 seconds to show me the exciting Black Screen of Dull while it loads up the next zone.

Quote:
Those extra 10 seconds you "gain" that would be lost anyway covering the same amount of visible distance traveled while zoning really takes a lot out of the world. I really don't get how when you zone somehow you start perceiving the world as smaller. There's no rational way to start thinking that way.


Sure there is. I'm not talking about time. I'm talking about the experience. Seamless is seamless. Zones are chunky and clumsy. It's a minor detail, but it's the little things that add up to something awesome.

Quote:
Quote:
Do I need to remind you how rare kindred seals are (In five years of playing and 5 75's + merits I have accumulated maybe 200)?


You have to be doing something wrong. I have 1 75 job, 1 40 job, and only like 3-5 37 jobs. As for merits all I have are 5/5 triple attack, 5/5 feint, 4/5 aura steal, 1/5 *** charge, 8/8 dagger, and 4/4 crit. Yet I still manage to somehow have gotten 308 kindred seals. And no, I do not do a lot of soloing. My parrying skill is still 100 levels under cap because of how little soling I do.


Random drops are random. Random rolls are random. Just goes to show the imbalance in a system where someone who can have played for that much longer can walk away with such an enormous discrepancy in terms of accumulated reward than someone who has played their character to a significantly lower level of development.
#148 Jun 05 2009 at 10:29 PM Rating: Default
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Alright, I see where you're coming from now. Smiley: lol It's more of a person to person opinion thing it seems and I can't rightfully say that it's "wrong". While you may view them as separate entities because of the loading screens, I don't even notice the loading screens. I just think of everything as a part of the giant world of vanadiel. If I'm in Jugner, I think of myself in junger, which is in the sandy region, which is but a small piece of the world called vanadiel. When I'm in the barrens, I think of myself in the barrens, which is in the orgrimmar region, which is part of the continent called (??) in the world of Azaroth(?). Even though everything is seamless in WoW I still separate everything into smaller and smaller groups that are each their own "zone", but only make up a part of the bigger world.

Hopefully I said that right.. I'm a bit more than tired right now.. in fact I think I'll go hit the hay seeing as I need to be up in 5 hours. <.<;
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#149 Jun 05 2009 at 10:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok Deadgye I logged into the game and headed to Jeuno to check my Kindred seals, and while I lowballed it a bit its not all that far off. I have 339 being stored atm, and while it may seem like a lot that's only three chances at a KSNM that I might not even win, for a rare drop that I might have to lot against others for. I'm just saying the price is a little hefty for some things.

And that's another of those luck things. How is it I have several 75's (and a few not "quites") and you are creeping up on me in those seals?

Something very wrong.
#150 Jun 05 2009 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
When you're confronted with a loading screen every time you enter or exit a zone, you tend to look at a game in terms of zones. When you have a seemless continent, you tend to think of things in terms of the continent and while you might recognize the different zones as you pass through them, it's in the back of your mind. You're on a continent, not in a giant box with outdoor scenery.


While I can very much agree with your point, it really is a matter of making better graphics technically. Loading zones in the beginning once entered makes for higher graphics with lower resource cost while actually playing in that zone, Seamless zoning makes for lower graphics because hardware must load the zone while still processing information from the former. It is peas and pods... it is a choice made by developers. I for one will take a loading zone to make the graphics better. but that is my opinion.

Now... Not to say one is better than the other... in ffxi vs wow say. Technically FFXI's env visuals were graphically higher, BUT WoWs Env visuals were more Style oriented increasing visual appeal while keeping resource hogging low.

This is how I like to explain it

Graphics = Visual appeal
Style = Visual Appeal
Style =/= Graphics
graphics =/= style

It is just one path or another the developers go... This concept can be described with Cell Shading as well, just trying to give an example to help the understanding process

Cell shading is a very Stylistic form of rendering that for most users greatly increases visual appeal. Of coarse some people don't like cell shading... but thats really beside the point.

but Cell shading while greatly increasing visual appeal isn't generally hard on your system at all.

Realistic Higher Graphics on the other hand also increases visual appeal but is hard on the system, making developers to really chose where system resources go, instead of having the freedom elsewhere.

Now, all of this can pretty much be thrown out the window while talking about IV as of now because honestly (i think)... looking at the PS3 and the PCs that they are aiming for IV to run on generally can output higher graphics WITH seamless transitions. Although I do not know for sure as I'm not on the dev team.

during the XI/WOW starting era it was a tougher decision to make... Do you take away immersion for graphics, in hopes that the graphics themselves increase immersion making up for it? or do you keep a level of immersion at the cost of graphics... Each decided on a different route each viable.
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#151 Jun 05 2009 at 11:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
Ok for @#%^ing god sakes how many times has it been said already if you haven't played the game in the last couple of years STFU.. If your point is to argue about what the game was like when you played 2+ expansions ago and countless patches then Good for you.. But its a @#%^ing waste of TEXT either way...

Play the god **** game if you intend to have a some actually useful feedback... The only mobs I think that still have this style of play are @#%^ing level 80 HNMs... Charby and ground kings as far as I can remember. Moldy could be a pain in the *** to get but its a 2 hour repop in an area that's also nice to farm. ONE EARRING IN THE ENTIRE GAME has yet to be updated.

News flash, people have enjoyed running INSTANCES to get the Okote, PCC, Leaping boots, Kraken clubs you are refering to. For @#%^s sake they even stripped the old mobs you camped from their actual valuable DROPS so the only people who actually camp the **** things either already have the item or actually NEED IT && are @#%^ing retards..


First of all, *******, it's been right about a year since I quit. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe FFXIAH. I'm well aware of the change made to NMs. Let's not make believe that the change was made to help us beleaguered players. It was solely done to cut off gilseller income. While I think SE did a good thing with that update, it really didn't change the basic situation. Your two original options remained: either spend days camping and hope for luck, or farm for twenty hours. They added another option: farm up seals for hours and blow them all on a tiny chance to get the item.

It's not even that I mind that some items are so difficult to obtain, it's that there was nothing else even remotely decent to use. If you didn't have the Kote's 20 attack, you had... 2 ******* accuracy.

Oh, and they only left moldy earring unchanged? Oh, gee, great. I went 1/16 on mine, and for every claim I missed 2. That's 48 Profblix spawns it took me to get the **** thing. If we're very conservative and assume I only waited 2 hours for each, that's 96 hours spent getting that earring, or 4 solid days. Yeah, that's reasonable. FFXI fanbois always talk about the "sense of accomplishment" that comes from getting an item like that. When I was finally done, I didn't feel a sense of accomplishment, I felt blessed relief that I could finally get the get out of that ugly dungeon.

Charby? Oh Jesus. 12 hours between windows, which could last 6 hours or more. I was only ever able to get it because I had surgery done which confined me to my *** for a couple weeks. Do you know how hard it is to get several people to agree to stand around with their thumbs up their asses for up to six hours just so you can have a sword? I had to get very lucky to have a NIN and BRD friend online at the same time that for once the spawn was uncontested and it was 5 hours into the window. Sense of accomplishment? I sat in a dank pit for two weeks until I got lucky. WOOOHOOOO so much fun!

Quote:
YYYEEEEEAAAAAAARRRRSS AGGOOOO!!!


Eat me, *******. I know what I'm talking about here. I spent hours staring at walls because I'd deluded myself that I was being a hardcore gamer. I wasn't. I was being a pathetic dupe.

I don't want FFXIV to be like that.
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