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#152 Jun 06 2009 at 12:11 AM Rating: Default
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MrSenethSomed wrote:
The idea that WoW can't be hardcore is stupid. There are plenty of hardcore players going after hardcore challenges. Right now, the hardest boss in WoW is Heroic hard-mode Algalon. He has been downed exactly once, by a single guild. The guild that downed him is, literally, full of professional players. As in, they get paid to play. It took them hundreds and hundreds of attempts, and they were at it for overtime shifts. You gonna tell me this is casual?


No they don’t get played to play, 3 people out of 35 get paid to play and that is the guild leaders. And no they didn’t try Algalon for hundreds and hundreds of attempts before downing him since Algalon is only up for 1 hour / week and Uldar has been out for 6 weeks. They reached him after 3 weeks and have been trying him for the past 3 weeks, meaning 3 hours of total tires before downing him. How do I know this? Because I know people that play in that guild.

PS. It was the 25 man (Hardcore version) I was talking about, they killed the 10 man (normal mode) even faster.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 4:22am by Maldavian
#153 Jun 06 2009 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
MrSenethSomed wrote:
The idea that WoW can't be hardcore is stupid. There are plenty of hardcore players going after hardcore challenges. Right now, the hardest boss in WoW is Heroic hard-mode Algalon. He has been downed exactly once, by a single guild. The guild that downed him is, literally, full of professional players. As in, they get paid to play. It took them hundreds and hundreds of attempts, and they were at it for overtime shifts. You gonna tell me this is casual?


No they don’t get played to play, 3 people out of 35 get paid to play and that is the guild leaders. And no they didn’t try Algalon for hundreds and hundreds of attempts before downing him since Algalon is only up for 1 hour / week and Uldar has been out for 6 weeks. They reached him after 3 weeks and have been trying him for the past 3 weeks, meaning 3 hours of total tires before downing him. How do I know this? Because I know people that play in that guild.


3 hours for a sponsored raid guild (and yes, they do qualify as a sponsored guild even if not all of them are paid to play) means that Joe Average guild will be stuck on Algalon for months if they ever down him at all.

Point is, you can't say there's nothing for hardcore players in WoW. You're just showing your astounding ignorance again. Best to just stop before you make things worse.
#154 Jun 06 2009 at 12:44 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
MrSenethSomed wrote:
The idea that WoW can't be hardcore is stupid. There are plenty of hardcore players going after hardcore challenges. Right now, the hardest boss in WoW is Heroic hard-mode Algalon. He has been downed exactly once, by a single guild. The guild that downed him is, literally, full of professional players. As in, they get paid to play. It took them hundreds and hundreds of attempts, and they were at it for overtime shifts. You gonna tell me this is casual?


No they don’t get played to play, 3 people out of 35 get paid to play and that is the guild leaders. And no they didn’t try Algalon for hundreds and hundreds of attempts before downing him since Algalon is only up for 1 hour / week and Uldar has been out for 6 weeks. They reached him after 3 weeks and have been trying him for the past 3 weeks, meaning 3 hours of total tires before downing him. How do I know this? Because I know people that play in that guild.


3 hours for a sponsored raid guild (and yes, they do qualify as a sponsored guild even if not all of them are paid to play) means that Joe Average guild will be stuck on Algalon for months if they ever down him at all.

Point is, you can't say there's nothing for hardcore players in WoW. You're just showing your astounding ignorance again. Best to just stop before you make things worse.


Joe Average guild does not need to wait for months since usually Bliizard will nurf the content after a while going by how Blizzard has done in the past. Also not to mention movies and strategy will be up shortly to tell you how to defeat all the bosses. And while we are at it why don’t you go and read Ensidia forums about how WoW endgame really sucks for hardcore players, so we can see how they really think about how hard WoW is really? And no there is nothing to do for hardcore players after clearing Uldar 25man. Why don’t you go and ask them yourself if you don’t believe me?


Edited, Jun 6th 2009 4:49am by Maldavian

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 4:57am by Maldavian
#155 Jun 06 2009 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
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I'll take your word for it about Algalon then, and assume I had bad info. To be honest, the whole concept behind that guild sickens me. Still, the fact remains: he's been killed once. If WoR can be believed, only two US guilds have downed hard mode heroic Yogg-Saron. The vast, vast majority of guilds that are even playing on heroic haven't beaten anything on hard-mode outside of the seige.

But no, obviously WoW is only for fruity pansies who don't know that real hardcore gamers looking for a challenge have been camping Fafhog every day for six years.

EDIT:
Quote:
Also not to mention movies and strategy will be up shortly to tell you how to defeat all the bosses.


Does that mean the guilds competing for the world firsts aren't hardcore players?

This is getting off the topic, though. It's indisputable that there is hardcore play in WoW. It's just one option out of many ways to play, and that's the real problem you seem to have with it. If you aren't being punished with brutally hard difficulty, plus massive timesinks, from the moment your level 1 character pops, it's a game for weenies who want everything handed to them. Give me a break.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 3:49am by MrSenethSomed

Responding to this here, since my other post was eaten by server goblins.

Quote:
And while we are at it why don’t you go and read Ensidia forums about how WoW endgame really sucks for hardcore players, so we can see how they really think about how hard WoW is really?


Ok.

Miriam from the Ensidia forums wrote:
Tuning of hard modes is obviously a very tight issue...sometimes Blizzard succeeds in it, sometimes they fail miserably (like the whole Hodir thing). It seems that the way that Mimiron and Freya ended up at this point, makes the race pretty exciting and gives high credit to those who managed to do at least one of them.

I'm not sure if they ended up the way that Blizzard wanted, but hope so...fights that only 3 guilds can kill within a timespan of a month (like Mimiron hard) are pretty awesome from the viewpoint of an objective follower. However, there's a very thin line between "doable by Ensidia and maybe some others" and "mathematically impossible".


Thread is Hard Modes 3.2 and beyond. Some people complain about having hard-mode style progression, but overall the consensus seems to be that hard-mode is plenty hard.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 4:03am by MrSenethSomed
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#156 Jun 06 2009 at 12:53 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And while we are at it why don’t you go and read Ensidia forums about how WoW endgame really sucks for hardcore players, so we can see how they really think about how hard WoW is really?


Miriam, from the Ensidia forums:
Quote:
Tuning of hard modes is obviously a very tight issue...sometimes Blizzard succeeds in it, sometimes they fail miserably (like the whole Hodir thing). It seems that the way that Mimiron and Freya ended up at this point, makes the race pretty exciting and gives high credit to those who managed to do at least one of them.

I'm not sure if they ended up the way that Blizzard wanted, but hope so...fights that only 3 guilds can kill within a timespan of a month (like Mimiron hard) are pretty awesome from the viewpoint of an objective follower. However, there's a very thin line between "doable by Ensidia and maybe some others" and "mathematically impossible".


Yeah, sounds like the game is just way too carebear.
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#157 Jun 06 2009 at 12:56 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:

Joe Average guild does not need to wait for month since usually Bliizard will nurf the content after a while going by how Blizzard has done in the past. Also not to mention movies and strategy will be up shortly to tell you how to defeat all the bosses. And while we are at it why don’t you go and read Ensidia forums about how WoW endgame really sucks for hardcore players, so we can see how they really think about how hard WoW is really?


Now you're just being a blithering idiot. Blizzard nerfs content went it stagnates. When it becomes obvious that the people who can handle the content have cleared it and it's tuned to be too difficult for the rest, that's when they nerf it. Blizzard isn't going to nerf Algalon in a month just because one guild downed him. If any nerfs come down for Ulduar hard-mode content between now and the time the next content patch happens, it will be because Blizzard is having a hard time with itemization right now and if they don't make some changes, content for the casual Joe will be too easy unless your entire guild is terribad while hard-mode content is almost perfectly tuned to match the current gear. If they adjust classes or gear to make average Joe level content anything more than a faceroll tour through epic land, hard-mode content will be next to impossible to clear...even guilds like Ensidia would be back to the drawing board and having to step up their game that much more to down the content they've already cleared. US top 100 guilds are already saying that if Blizzard nerfs classes or gear to keep the majority (see also casual) of raiders challenged, the hard-mode content will have to be nerfed to account for it or nobody will be able to clear it.

But if you actually have experience with WoW endgame and know this stuff instead of just regurgitating what you read and what you misunderstand your friends telling you, you'd know that already.

The "normal" encounters for the majority of the population with the "hard mode" encounters for the hardcore players is a brand new concept for Blizzard, and it's taking a bit of time to work out the bugs. If you want to find fault with that, go ahead. Just stop talking like an expert when you've not the first ******* clue what you're talking about.

Knock it off.
#158 Jun 06 2009 at 1:45 AM Rating: Good
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Good thread, some good ideas, I haven't read the entire thing so my apologies if I am repeating.

Couple of things I'd love from WoW --

1) EXP and other good rewards from quests. I'm definitely not against grinding, I did plenty of it in FFXI, but EXPing in WoW was a lot more fun. Mind you I never got past level 40 in WoW so it might be different in endgame, but at the lower levels in WoW the best way to level up was to quest, and grind while you do it. Even if the quest was as simple as "go here, kill 20 of these, come back"--you got EXP and skillups while you killed the things, you got to travel to cool places and explore, and you got a reward when you were done. It was a much, much smoother system and I felt as if I was getting so much more out of my time, and having much more fun, than leveling up in FFXI.

2) Linkshell/guild designations. Having a tabard was pretty rad, looked cool, and was a unifying factor between you and your friends. I'd love some sort of equivalent in FFXIV that isn't just a colored ball by my name.

3) Open world. No bloody loading every zone. This WILL be in FFXIV, it makes no sense not to.

4) Soloability/small groups. A lot of quests I was able to do myself, and when I needed help, I called up two or three friends and we kicked ***. I haven't got a problem playing with strangers, but for someone like me who was a casual FFXI player for a large part of the time I played it, I didn't have a huge linkshell worth of people to call on when I needed help. If I wanted to get something done (AF or something like that) it was always a huge song and dance production to be able to get help because everything took 8-10 people. Basically what I'm saying is that I am really glad they are taking a better look at solo and small group content, as that's what I like to spend most of my time on: me and my friends having fun together.

I can't think of any more right now, but I'm glad the devs took some ideas from WoW and other MMOs and it will go a long way to making FFXIV better.
#159 Jun 06 2009 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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double post!

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 3:25pm by Gallick
#160 Jun 06 2009 at 2:21 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, yet, but I think FFXIV should strive to learn from WoW and other American RPGs in terms of character growth. It seems like they're aiming that way, but still; is it just skills, or is it stats, too? Ability choices?

It's asinine that two WARs at level 75 are identical, stat-wise, barring merits and gear. Merits, gear, and race should not be all that grows a character. Why are we not able to have a "bonus" point to place into a particular stat category every level or three? A skill tree in addition, so maybe we "specialize" in GA or Axe, but never both at once? It would at least give people an *option* for making themselves a little different. FFXI is barely even a "role-playing game", it's more of an adventure title. You have no control whatsoever in how your character *grows*, until 75. That's just embarrassing.

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#161 Jun 06 2009 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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VhailorEmp wrote:


It's asinine that two WARs at level 75 are identical, stat-wise, barring merits and gear. Merits, gear, and race should not be all that grows a character.



They'd be pretty different if they chose different sub jobs. A WAR/NIN will be pretty different than a WAR/SAM, for example.
I've played a ton of both games and I believe that the sub job system + merits gives at least as much, if not more, ability to customize your character. In either case, what happens is that people gravitate to a cookie cutter build and then complain about a lack of options. THe challenge for the developer is to make less attractive options seem more attractive without in turn simply creating a new, more powerful cookie cutter build.
#162 Jun 06 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:

They'd be pretty different if they chose different sub jobs. A WAR/NIN will be pretty different than a WAR/SAM, for example.
I've played a ton of both games and I believe that the sub job system + merits gives at least as much, if not more, ability to customize your character. In either case, what happens is that people gravitate to a cookie cutter build and then complain about a lack of options. THe challenge for the developer is to make less attractive options seem more attractive without in turn simply creating a new, more powerful cookie cutter build.


This is somewhat true in that different subjobs change the dynamics of gameplay, but I think one of the major failings of this game is the main job being defined by the subjob. So now you aren't even *playing* your main job really, because your subjob is more important to make it work.

Not to mention that you *have* to level a job you might not even like because your main job *needs* it to work. Subjobs add flexibility, but I can't tell you how many ******** parties I have been in where people were literally counting the xp til 37 so they could get the **** off that job they hated but had no choice to level or be *gimp*. That sucks, it just sucks. It's really hard for some jobs who have to have a wide variety of subjobs. By the time you get back to leveling the job you wanted to play in the first place, you are sick of the game.

Ok that's a little dramatic, but it does take away from the overall experience of the game when you are forced to do things you don't want to just to do the things you want to.

And the fact that you can't customize your character at all until the level cap is kind of sad. And don't you even try to sit there and say that there aren't expected builds as far as merits go. On that WAR you are going to be expected to merit GA, DA, the list goes on. It's not like you have a whole lot of options unless you are willing to take other peoples' abuse when they find out your build and make fun of it. This community is not so forgiving of people who may want to play differently, because it's their 64.75, right?
#163 Jun 06 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:


What I'd like to see in FFXIV would be streamlined travel across the world. No more 15 - 20 minute waits for a ship followed by a 20 minute ride followed by a cutscene to get off the boat. There's something wrong when you decide to travel somewhere and then go AFK to read a book or take a shower because there's nothing better to do while you wait for your mode of travel. Now, WoW isn't perfect in this either. Their Flight Path system is very nice, but I swear, some of the paths were drawn out by a drunk hobo with a crayon. The mounts are quite good, easily attained faster movement speed lets me get to what I really want to do faster. And finally, the summoning stones and the mages summoning spell. My word but I love that system. Being able to get all your party members to the same place in short order, and not having to wait 20 extra minutes while you go raise that guy who got aggro halfway through the zone... that's a thing of beauty.

tldr - remove the worst of the travel time sinks please.


A while back a bug in a patch cause airship/boat travel to be almost instantaneous. Of course SE apologized for the inconvenience. I know some players like fishing and pirates on the boats but it is nice in WOW that you jump to your destination. Perhapsn 14 could include fishing tours for those who want them.
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#164 Jun 06 2009 at 11:03 AM Rating: Default
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MrSenethSomed wrote:

Your two original options remained: either spend days camping and hope for luck, or farm for twenty hours. They added another option: farm up seals for hours and blow them all on a tiny chance to get the item.


Ok right off
I agree that as a whole NMs and random drop rates are **** game design especially when abused.

HOWEVER your ******** about having to spend 10-15 hours to obtain a best in slot item that you can SOLO farm the gil for...

Cmon it would be perfectly fine if this didn't include NMs in the Equation. Beastmen seals are an absolute joke as well. If you ever solo a job to 30 you get like a stack of them easily. There really is a certain point where I am just reading a bunch of garbage even in the WoW forums where people complain about how expensive epic flying is or Dual spec. QQ more...

Get a life belt and +2 accuracy and out parse people anyway. Seriously uber items like that are really a luxury meant for people who already have been at 75.

Id be perfectly fine with this in the new game if they just removed the NMs from the equation as an option entirely. 20 hours of farming to get a best in slot item that scales well all the way to 75? That's 20 hours well spent IMHO. Its not like you need the **** things. Guess what I am fine with spending 15 hours running battle grounds to upgrade a single piece of PVP armor too.

The only thing about what you are talking about is because a long time ago the only way to get the absolute best items for you job were to camp the NMs. And that was changed. And no you dont deserve things you cant have and yes you can probably outparse someone who does have them if you stay on the ball.

Keep in mind that this game isnt wow. You get a best in slot item in FFXI that **** stayed best in slot for like 5 years..

Camping NMs, the concept needs to die in a fire, paving a red carpet so you can feel more uber than you actually are can also could die in a fire. This game isnt FFMrSenethSomedXI

Uber best in slot items ALWAYS should be a ***** to get in any MMO and its fine that way IMO.. Especially if you can equip it at level 33!!!
#165 Jun 06 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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Hey, to everyone argusing that they want FFXIV to be a hardcore game like FFXI and not make it easy like wow....THEN JUST PLAY XI!! The rest of us who would like to see something new and SE taking ideas from their ENTIRE fan base and not just those few who still play XI then we should continye to discuss important items.
#166 Jun 06 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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If I want to play a game like WoW, I'll just play WoW. If I want to play a game like FFXI, I'll just play FFXI. I expect a unique experience. If Square has ever managed anything, its that they're pretty good at delivering unique experiences with each of their Final Fantasy games. Hopefully, that trend continues.
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#167 Jun 06 2009 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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For all you tools arguing about how difficult it was to get the Monk belts in FFXI, let's not forget that those were arguably some of the best pieces of gear in the entire game. They weren't supposed to be easy to get. At all.

When I played, it was pretty rare to see a Monk with a Brown Belt under level 55 and I saw like.. 3 or 4 people wearing Black Belts.
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#168 Jun 06 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
If I want to play a game like WoW, I'll just play WoW. If I want to play a game like FFXI, I'll just play FFXI. I expect a unique experience. If Square has ever managed anything, its that they're pretty good at delivering unique experiences with each of their Final Fantasy games. Hopefully, that trend continues.


No one here wants ffxiv to be a wow clone. There are simply some very nice features to wow that would be nice to be incorperated into the game.

I think Newton said it best: "If I have seen further it is by standing on ye shoulders of Giants"

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#169 Jun 06 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:


Keep in mind that this game isnt wow. You get a best in slot item in FFXI that sh*t stayed best in slot for like 5 years..

Camping NMs, the concept needs to die in a fire, paving a red carpet so you can feel more uber than you actually are can also could die in a fire. This game isnt FFMrSenethSomedXI

Uber best in slot items ALWAYS should be a ***** to get in any MMO and its fine that way IMO.. Especially if you can equip it at level 33!!!


I don't think anyone (or at least, anyone who is being reasonable) takes issue with the idea that there can be rewards in an MMO that take time to earn. The issue comes from the answer to these questions:

1) How much time are we talking about?
2) How much of my chance at success boils down to luck?
3) What are my alternatives?

It's not necessary to tune itemization in an MMO so that the "best" gear is the best by an enormous margin over the next best option. If it is tuned that way, you create artificial and highly detrimental blocks to future progression. If the "best" is too powerful, it trivializes future content for the people who have it. If future content is tuned so that having the "best" still leaves room for an entertaining challenge, it means that not having the "best" makes that content unapproachable. Something Blizzard has realized and that I hope SE takes note of is that it's not good business practice to collect monthly fees from all of your users and from those fees, devote the majority of your development budget to content that is only accessible by the top 5% hardcore players in the game.

I don't pay my monthly fee so that an MMO developer can use that money to develop content exclusively for BoB McHardcore so he can sit around on welfare for 12-16 hours/day 7 days/week enjoying content that I can't access because I simply don't have that kind of time on my hands. I know that's an extreme example, but it's the truth. There has to be something for everyone or it's going to be a flop.
#170 Jun 06 2009 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
If I want to play a game like WoW, I'll just play WoW. If I want to play a game like FFXI, I'll just play FFXI. I expect a unique experience. If Square has ever managed anything, its that they're pretty good at delivering unique experiences with each of their Final Fantasy games. Hopefully, that trend continues.


I have to agree. I've played WoW and it was a lot of fun. But I play this because it isn't WoW, and I enjoy it much more. I think alot of MMO's (while I haven't played them but from impressions) are just trying to catch a ride on being a WoW clone.

I certainly hope that FFXIV doesn't try to follow that path and does something quite unique. As much as some of you may hate it I DO want it to still take a while to be max level, something that did bother me in WoW is there doesn't feel like any achievement in leveling, and you did 99% of it solo.

Yes you can argue that you CAN party to do an instance or a group quest, but last time I took my warrior through 1-70 (before WotLK) I may have grouped together 3-4 times max only to do a few instances and that was it. I LIKE group aspects in MMO's, and while I hope FFXIV does have some solo content I do hope that the majority of the game isn't built around it, where there is no point to group together unless your doing endgame. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see. And yes the seamless transition between zoning should be there. Its 2009 and there is no need to load a new zone everytime, I still think they can keep the large areas along with making it seamless.
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#171 Jun 06 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Ipwnrice wrote:

Yes you can argue that you CAN party to do an instance or a group quest, but last time I took my warrior through 1-70 (before WotLK) I may have grouped together 3-4 times max only to do a few instances and that was it.


Again, that was your choice, and if you fault the game design for that you need to grow up. If people want to group, they will group. If people want to play solo, they will play solo. An MMO developer doesn't need to force group play on people...I know it, SE knows it, millions of other MMO gamers know it. Take responsibility for your own choices.
#172 Jun 06 2009 at 12:53 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Ipwnrice wrote:

Yes you can argue that you CAN party to do an instance or a group quest, but last time I took my warrior through 1-70 (before WotLK) I may have grouped together 3-4 times max only to do a few instances and that was it.


Again, that was your choice, and if you fault the game design for that you need to grow up. If people want to group, they will group. If people want to play solo, they will play solo. An MMO developer doesn't need to force group play on people...I know it, SE knows it, millions of other MMO gamers know it. Take responsibility for your own choices.


Yes your right why would we want to play MMORPG's with anyone else? Lets just solo the entire thing! HURRAY! Look I can completely twist it the other way to, just because YOU want to solo everything doesn't mean EVERYONE else does. ESPECIALLY the FFXI community.
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#173 Jun 06 2009 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Whoa, I am actually shocked to see that some people actually want FFXIV go towards WoW somehow. I mean why do you even play FFXI in the first place? Go play WoW if you find it good, keep Final Fantasy and WoW as different from each other than possible though.

First of all people who don't like camping H/NMs because they don't like wasting several hours of their time for a 10% chance to get a claim and maybe even worse chance to get the desired drop. Oh my.

Well in my opinion, NMs and HNMs are one thing that make FFXI so unique, I've never felt such an excitement in any mmorpg I've played than I feel when I camp <insert any HNM or even NM here>. Not to mention the feel of accomplishment when you actually manage to outclaim the <x number> of other LS peeps on the spot. And that feeling when you're not sure should you cry or laugh from joy when <item x> finally drops for you. In FFXI you have to work hard, you have to "waste" your time and you actually have to make an effort to accomplish something, to get all that stuff you have wanted from the beginning, and this is what makes FFXI so great.

I played WoW for few years, but I actually felt that everything that WoW had to offer PvE side failed miserably compared to FFXI, yeah you heard me. I actually think that when it comes to PvE content - FFXI is miles ahead of WoW. And I eventually became a PvP only player in WoW for this reason.

There was no sense of accomplishment in anything I did in WoW PvE wise, all those so called HC instances became relatively easy fast and it lacked the feel of competition that FFXI has to offer in certain PvE elements, like HNM camping against other people. This is what I like. I get excited when the competition comes from other players in stead of NPCs, don't you?
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#174 Jun 06 2009 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Whoa, I am actually shocked to see that some people actually want FFXIV go towards WoW somehow. I mean why do you even play FFXI in the first place? Go play WoW if you find it good, keep Final Fantasy and WoW as different from each other than possible though.


And I'm mystified that you want FFXIV to not go anywhere. If you want to play FFXI, play FFXI. There is the reason we're making a new game here. Not to be WoW, not to be FFXI, but to bring us something new. Believe it or not, WoW did some things right. I know, it's a shocker, but nonetheless true. Equally, it may be shocking, but FFXI messed up in some spots too.

I'm sure not a single one of us seriously wants a WoW clone. I know I certainly don't. But equally, I don't want them to simply ignore WoW. Heck, FFXI already learned many a lesson from WoW, just too late. It is a very good idea to continue on that path, making up for FFXI's weakness, while building on it's strengths. And, yes, that means taking a good hard look at what makes WoW the monster that it is.

I'm sure both you and I want FFXIV to succeed, and that means it has to distinguish itself from the competition, and from it's predecessor, or it struggle and never reach it's potential. Quibble with individual ideas, that's fine, but don't just make a blanket declaration of opposition.
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#175 Jun 06 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:


Keep in mind that this game isnt wow. You get a best in slot item in FFXI that sh*t stayed best in slot for like 5 years..

Camping NMs, the concept needs to die in a fire, paving a red carpet so you can feel more uber than you actually are can also could die in a fire. This game isnt FFMrSenethSomedXI

Uber best in slot items ALWAYS should be a ***** to get in any MMO and its fine that way IMO.. Especially if you can equip it at level 33!!!


I don't think anyone (or at least, anyone who is being reasonable) takes issue with the idea that there can be rewards in an MMO that take time to earn. The issue comes from the answer to these questions:

1) How much time are we talking about?
2) How much of my chance at success boils down to luck?
3) What are my alternatives?


It's not necessary to tune itemization in an MMO so that the "best" gear is the best by an enormous margin over the next best option. If it is tuned that way, you create artificial and highly detrimental blocks to future progression. If the "best" is too powerful, it trivializes future content for the people who have it. If future content is tuned so that having the "best" still leaves room for an entertaining challenge, it means that not having the "best" makes that content unapproachable. Something Blizzard has realized and that I hope SE takes note of is that it's not good business practice to collect monthly fees from all of your users and from those fees, devote the majority of your development budget to content that is only accessible by the top 5% hardcore players in the game.

I don't pay my monthly fee so that an MMO developer can use that money to develop content exclusively for BoB McHardcore so he can sit around on welfare for 12-16 hours/day 7 days/week enjoying content that I can't access because I simply don't have that kind of time on my hands. I know that's an extreme example, but it's the truth. There has to be something for everyone or it's going to be a flop.


1. The only valid complaint about brown belt was the one where "I was forced to stand in X area doing nothing for 1 week before getting the item"

Being forced to run instances with random drop rates and save up tokens to do so is QQ territory... I have never been a fan of random drop rates either but id never even bat an eye if the original and only way to obtain a brown belt was to do lots of BCNM runs or buy the item from the auction house.

Quote:
1) How much time are we talking about?
2) How much of my chance at success boils down to luck?
3) What are my alternatives?


I don't know, how long DOES it take to get fully tiered out in in ulduar gear right now in WoW? Because basically in FFXI a brown belt is mnk waist item that is equivalent to the second best waist item in ALL of WOW.

The difference between brown belt and its WoW equivalent is that Square failed to put up safety bars to say "hey if this game was wow you would need to run 10 man ulduar in hard mode for a random drop chance off a boss ect". I hope you enjoy your hardcore raiding guild and dedicating at least 3 days of your week to just raiding.

And that is the real problem right there. Now frankly I was able to pretty much solo my brown belt I will never join a hardcore raiding guild running ulduar for a brown belt in FFXI...

The problem was that they put up END GAME items at level 30-40 and didn't think how that would effect people. But as long as you don't camp NMs its fine by me....
#176 Jun 06 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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Ipwnrice wrote:

Yes your right why would we want to play MMORPG's with anyone else? Lets just solo the entire thing! HURRAY! Look I can completely twist it the other way to, just because YOU want to solo everything doesn't mean EVERYONE else does. ESPECIALLY the FFXI community.


1) This "if you want to play solo...ever...it obviously means you want to play solo all the time" ******** needs to stop. You can't FORCE players to group for 90% of a game's content if you want to have a successful MMO. Period.
2) We're not talking about FFXI. We're talking about FFXIV. Get it straight, and then get over it.
#177 Jun 06 2009 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:


I don't know, how long DOES it take to get fully tiered out in in ulduar gear right now in WoW? Because basically in FFXI a brown belt is mnk waist item that is equivalent to the second best waist item in ALL of WOW.


I'm not talking about any one specific piece of gear. I'm talking about a design philosophy, and even more I'm talking about the perception formed within the community based on that philosophy. If you don't offer enough diversity in a game's itemization, "the best" becomes status quo. If the best is status quo and the process involved in achieving the best is excessive, you've got a broken system.
#178 Jun 06 2009 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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The best moments of MMO play always comes from partying or doing something in a group. Running around from one NPC to the next NPC is a waste of time.

I hope SE will make grouping easier and in all ways they can encourage grouping.
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#179 Jun 06 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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insanekangaroo wrote:
I hope SE will make grouping easier and in all ways they can encourage grouping.


I agree on this, but being in a group that constantly shifts and never gets anything accomplished due to people having obligations elsewhere is never fun.
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#180 Jun 06 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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DeMaWa wrote:
Well in my opinion, NMs and HNMs are one thing that make FFXI so unique, I've never felt such an excitement in any mmorpg I've played than I feel when I camp <insert any HNM or even NM here>. Not to mention the feel of accomplishment when you actually manage to outclaim the <x number> of other LS peeps on the spot. And that feeling when you're not sure should you cry or laugh from joy when <item x> finally drops for you. In FFXI you have to work hard, you have to "waste" your time and you actually have to make an effort to accomplish something, to get all that stuff you have wanted from the beginning, and this is what makes FFXI so great.


Ehh...umm...ok.

If you enjoyed that, awesome. You're entitled to enjoy whatever you like. I think what you'll find, however, is that most MMO players don't find countless hours of absolute boredom to be a reasonable price to pay for 30 minutes of excitement. If it's possible to offer that 30 minutes of excitement without the dozens of hours of boredom, I think that's a preferable option, don't you?

Quote:
There was no sense of accomplishment in anything I did in WoW PvE wise, all those so called HC instances became relatively easy fast and it lacked the feel of competition that FFXI has to offer in certain PvE elements, like HNM camping against other people. This is what I like. I get excited when the competition comes from other players in stead of NPCs, don't you?


You can't compare 5-man content in WoW to alliance content in FFXI. If you want to compare, compare raid content in WoW to alliance content in FFXI. You'll find a greater spread of diversity and you'll find that boss encounters in WoW raids could be just as entertaining as any FFXI boss encounter...minus the wasted time leading up to the spawn. If you like competition, that's cool. Competition in WoW is found in PvP. You know...player vs. player. You don't go to a player vs. environment event if what you really enjoy is player vs. player content, right?

So what you're really saying is that you enjoy player vs. player content, and that's fantastic. The player vs. player aspect of competition in FFXI when it comes to HNMs is a split second on a spawn. Holy cow...I commend your dedication to PvP if you're willing to subject yourself to hours of thumb twiddling for a chance at a split second contest.

Those of us who enjoy the game for player vs. environment challenges and content don't always appreciate the idea that we should be excluded from that content because we aren't interested in PvP.
#181 Jun 06 2009 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Derekloffin wrote:
Quote:
Whoa, I am actually shocked to see that some people actually want FFXIV go towards WoW somehow. I mean why do you even play FFXI in the first place? Go play WoW if you find it good, keep Final Fantasy and WoW as different from each other than possible though.


And I'm mystified that you want FFXIV to not go anywhere. If you want to play FFXI, play FFXI. There is the reason we're making a new game here. Not to be WoW, not to be FFXI, but to bring us something new. Believe it or not, WoW did some things right. I know, it's a shocker, but nonetheless true. Equally, it may be shocking, but FFXI messed up in some spots too.


The only thing WoW got right and really nailed it home was levels 1-79.. leveling experience is even until today the most casual and least boring experience any MMO has provided to date.

They made dual spec cost 1k gold and for the same reasons people complain about getting a brown belt Blizzard blundered and forced people to have to farm up 1k gold. But other than that rather startling direct correlation most casual players only care about solo questing anyway.

Where as in FFXI the games biggest weakness was its leveling. A stark contrast from WoW in the same meaningful ways.

End game in WOW would never have atracted 11 million players.. Where as if you took FFXI and started everyone at level 75 people would most likely enjoy meriting in campaign and besiged style events. FFXIs popularity could have GROWN from cutting off the first 74 levels of the game and placed everyone firmly into the crystal war where as if you were to remove 79 levels from wow the game would die in months. Wintergrasp and PVP in WoW would probably be all the game has for casual audience. PVP is known to be very unpopular compared to PVE across all genres and games.

All they needed to do right in FFXI was make leveling more fun, the actual act of gaining xp not feel like a grind, or at least interesting enough that its enjoyable. That was always the main difference between the games. Blizzard didn't really get anything else right but that and that was the ONLY thing they needed to get right anyway so it didn't matter.
#182 Jun 06 2009 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I agree on this, but being in a group that constantly shifts and never gets anything accomplished due to people having obligations elsewhere is never fun.


I agree. Therefore I hope they will make groups more flexible so you don't need precisely 6 players (3 DDs, 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 support) to party in a group. 2 people are also a group.
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#183 Jun 06 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Default
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572 posts
insanekangaroo wrote:
The best moments of MMO play always comes from partying or doing something in a group. Running around from one NPC to the next NPC is a waste of time.

I hope SE will make grouping easier and in all ways they can encourage grouping.


I agree as well, personally I think grouping is the most important factor in an MMO. Sure you can get more customers by having solo content for solo players, but in the end that solo player will have to group or raid to experience the endgame.
#184 Jun 06 2009 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:

I'm not talking about any one specific piece of gear. I'm talking about a design philosophy, and even more I'm talking about the perception formed within the community based on that philosophy. If you don't offer enough diversity in a game's itemization, "the best" becomes status quo. If the best is status quo and the process involved in achieving the best is excessive, you've got a broken system.


agreed
They should have made those items obtainable only from end game events and have them be rare/ex from the start. FFXI always kind of had a unique problem where someone who has 5 level 75 jobs would be more desirable to invite vs another guy with the same gear at level 40 who is new. Simply because the guy with merits has better stats ect. The above solution would only serve to exasperate this.

I guess its not terribly unique.. I know after level 40 I might not allow someone into the group if he doesn't have dual spec yet vs someone who does. Simply because it implies the guy with dual spec is not new to the game. This is just MMO stuff here not even FFXI related I guess /sigh
#185 Jun 06 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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insanekangaroo wrote:
The best moments of MMO play always comes from partying or doing something in a group. Running around from one NPC to the next NPC is a waste of time.


That's your opinion, and you're 100% entitled to it.

Quote:
I hope SE will make grouping easier and in all ways they can encourage grouping.


If an MMO developer could implement a system where finding a group was always fast (ie. guaranteed group in < 5 mins), the group you ended up with was always functioning at the same level as you, and replacing group members as they had to leave was always fast (again, < 5 mins) I'd be all over it.

Sadly, the more diverse you make a game, the more likely you are to encounter a situation where there aren't enough people with similar objectives as you available to make a group whenever you want it. An MMO developer can't really hope to see their product become very successful if it isn't diverse, so the next best option is to make sure it includes ample content for people to find entertainment even if they can't find a group. Done well, you end up with a game that has a good mix of solo options as well as content suited to groups, and then you win. Life is good. Life is grand.

Sadly, it doesn't matter what MMO you play, you eventually come across that string of parties where one guy is too stoned to think about anything more than the scenery, or another guy is too busy trying to be an individualist to cooperate and contribute to the team, or another guy logged on, joined your group, and then his mom calls him to dinner 5 minutes after you get to where you needed to be. You'll always eventually wind up in that string of groups with too many players that really just make the experience more painful than entertaining, and you get sick of it.

Sometimes a break is in order, but you're not really looking for a break from the game, you're looking for a break from the idiots in it. And that's why a system that relies on forced grouping for 90% of the content doesn't work for enough players to allow an MMO to be truly successful and enjoy any kind of lasting longevity without enormous stagnation. You don't want your players logging out in frustration. You want them logging out feeling like they've enjoyed themselves for the bulk of their time in the game.
#186 Jun 06 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
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thorazinekizzez wrote:


End game in WOW would never have atracted 11 million players.. .


Don’t forget that 5 million of those are Chinese that play on a localized version of WoW, and that WoW is localized in many more regions around the world compare to FFXI so it’s only natural to have 11 million. FFXI was never localized in China, sad story, IMO they could have picked up a couple of million players there. Also the amount of money Blizzard put into promoting WoW at start and continues to do so even today shows that marketing actively will help to promote your product enormously. I don’t think SE did any kind of promotion that WoW did. I did hear they did some promotion in Japan when it was released the first time but that’s about it.
#187 Jun 06 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Ipwnrice wrote:

Yes your right why would we want to play MMORPG's with anyone else? Lets just solo the entire thing! HURRAY! Look I can completely twist it the other way to, just because YOU want to solo everything doesn't mean EVERYONE else does. ESPECIALLY the FFXI community.


1) This "if you want to play solo...ever...it obviously means you want to play solo all the time" bullsh*t needs to stop. You can't FORCE players to group for 90% of a game's content if you want to have a successful MMO. Period.
2) We're not talking about FFXI. We're talking about FFXIV. Get it straight, and then get over it.


You have to force it to some extent or nobody will do it. Or at least that is the general consensus with most arguments. While I did run plenty of instances in WoW on my trip to 80 that was ONLY because I was a healer druid... A healer druid before dual spec was FORCED GROUPING in wow. I was forced to run instances constantly or choose not to be a healer.

Play anything but a tank or a healer and bam you better enjoy that lonely world filled with npcs because you are solo man 2000 whether you like it or not.
#188 Jun 06 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Default
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Ipwnrice wrote:

Yes your right why would we want to play MMORPG's with anyone else? Lets just solo the entire thing! HURRAY! Look I can completely twist it the other way to, just because YOU want to solo everything doesn't mean EVERYONE else does. ESPECIALLY the FFXI community.


1) This "if you want to play solo...ever...it obviously means you want to play solo all the time" bullsh*t needs to stop. You can't FORCE players to group for 90% of a game's content if you want to have a successful MMO. Period.
2) We're not talking about FFXI. We're talking about FFXIV. Get it straight, and then get over it.


You have to force it to some extent or nobody will do it. Or at least that is the general consensus with most arguments. While I did run plenty of instances in WoW on my trip to 80 that was ONLY because I was a healer druid... A healer druid before dual spec was FORCED GROUPING in wow. I was forced to run instances constantly or choose not to be a healer.

Play anything but a tank or a healer and bam you better enjoy that lonely world filled with npcs because you are solo man 2000 whether you like it or not.


Of course, people will always take the easy way out if the option is available to them, that is human nature.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 6:36pm by Maldavian
#189 Jun 06 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maldavian wrote:
Of course, people will always take the easy way out if the option is available to them, that is human nature.


Ya, fancy that...people who like to invest their leisure time doing something that comes easily to them. Go figure.
#190 Jun 06 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Whoa, I am actually shocked to see that some people actually want FFXIV go towards WoW somehow. I mean why do you even play FFXI in the first place? Go play WoW if you find it good, keep Final Fantasy and WoW as different from each other than possible though.


You do realize, that a good majority of the suggestions in this thread are not at all specific to only WoW right? Infact, WoW in some cases ripped it from another game.

Yes this thread is specifically about features in WoW, but do not think that this means the people on this thread want a WoW clone nor are the features they are suggesting unique to WoW in all cases. Having a customizable UI is not unique to WoW - its just a **** cool feature, for example.

Like i said in my last post - to be great you improve on your predecessors, not ignore their work.

And really, if they simply rehashed FFXI in FFXIV how long do you think that game would last? How many people are going to ditch characters that they have played for years for pretty much the same game with a different wrapping?
____________________________


#191 Jun 06 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Default
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Well duh, let me put this a bit differently then. I want FFXIV to evolve and change from FFXI, I guess. But not too much, especially towards WoW.

To go deeper into my thoughts and wishes I could add something here.

I would not make it any easier than it is now, I already miss the times when people actually had to use skillchain/magic burst to take exp mobs down. Same goes with HNMs and other stuff that requires at least a party. I don't like the current state of FFXI where _EVERYTHING_ can be zerged down, I miss the old days when even experience mobs required some sort of attention and knowledge of the game (anyone remember wiping to bibiki gobs for example?). Currently it's just birds, birds and more birds. Not to mention Astral Flow parties, which btw in my opinion are currently the lamest thing in this game.

When we are talking about WoW and taking FFXIV few steps towards it from FFXI I get worried that this promising game will be ruined by the lack of difficulty in it, because we all know that there is nothing difficult or challenging in WoW leveling.

Sure you could think that the leveling process doesn't really matter and it's only good if it's fast, because that's how we get closer to the endgame stuff, where the real challenges are! Sure, might be true to a certain point, but imo if the game is at least somewhat challenging on the leveling part, it is more rewarding to reach those final levels in stead of the ******************************* reaction many people get when they ding the final level in WoW. Also people will hopefully learn their roles better, I've seen so many **** noobs at max lvl in WoW that have absolutely ZERO knowledge about their class it sickens me.

What comes to the leveling style in FFXI, ie. parties. It is also somewhat better opportunity for everyone to become better in their job, and ultimately in this game, because we can give tips to each other. When you just solo in WoW you won't get to see these friendly tips very often, but usually those "roflnoob" comments if you lose to someone in duel and your gear isn't all purpleZ.

Sure, there probably should have been FoV and campaign stuff since the beginning of FFXI, for the simple fact that you could still "evolve" while looking for an exp party, a bit slower for sure, but it's better than standing on <area x> and waiting without doing anything, I do agree that SE implied fields of valor and campaign battles a bit late, stuff like this should (and probably will) be there from the beginning.

And then there's the H/NM stuff and the different ways to obtain gear and "pimp" your character. First of all I deeply hope that all this wonderful stuff that FFXI has will not get replaced by instances (or dungeons, or what the **** ever SE would call em), like I mentioned competition is one thing that gives FFXI a special feeling, not a PvP-like competition, but a competition against other people in a PvE manner, on the spot, not just on some stupid site where you list the best raidguilds in the world.

If every nice piece of gear would be obtainable by instances then those pieces of gear would not be that rare. Do you remember how rare some items like ridill were few years in the past? I sure do and that time I was dreaming of that item because it was so rare and cool, and only those good and dedicated endgame players had it on them. And if you've played WoW, how long exactly does it take from the adding of a new instance for players in that epic gear dropping from the "oh-so-hard" bosses of that instance to start popping on your realm? Yeah, not that long.

So on a shorter version to the last paragraph; good gear should take time and dedication in order to be obtained, like camping HNMs versus other dedicated players that are after <item x>. This is still one of the facts that maked FFXI my preferred mmorpg.



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#192 Jun 06 2009 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I did not say that I wanted to force grouping, but they should encourage grouping.

What I hate the most in some MMOs (like in WOW and LOTRO - other 2 MMOs I have played), is the meaningless running between two totally random NPC. E.g. NPC1 says "bring this pie to my uncle who lives in the town on the other end of the map". Then you click the "pie" and follow the arrow on the map to another random NPC who tells you "Pie needs salt, go back to my niece and get some salt", then you go all the way back, and end up waisting maybe 20 mins doing this stupid line of "quests". That kind of content is pure CRAP - and if "learning from WOW" means making quests like this, then I say no thanks.
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#193 Jun 06 2009 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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572 posts
KacesofCaitsith wrote:


You do realize, that a good majority of the suggestions in this thread are not at all specific to only WoW right? Infact, WoW in some cases ripped it from another game.

Yes this thread is specifically about features in WoW, but do not think that this means the people on this thread want a WoW clone nor are the features they are suggesting unique to WoW in all cases. Having a customizable UI is not unique to WoW - its just a **** cool feature, for example.

Like i said in my last post - to be great you improve on your predecessors, not ignore their work.

And really, if they simply rehashed FFXI in FFXIV how long do you think that game would last? How many people are going to ditch characters that they have played for years for pretty much the same game with a different wrapping?


There is the option to create a system that no one has implement before or making it radically different from any MMO we know including WoW and FFXI ^^
#194 Jun 06 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
You have to force it to some extent or nobody will do it. Or at least that is the general consensus with most arguments. While I did run plenty of instances in WoW on my trip to 80 that was ONLY because I was a healer druid... A healer druid before dual spec was FORCED GROUPING in wow. I was forced to run instances constantly or choose not to be a healer.


Resto druids could solo. Resto or not, you still had bear form at level 10 and kitty form starting at level 20 and could still equip dps leather. A dedicated healing spec doesn't level solo as fast as an alternative spec, but solo xp is still an option. I know a holy priest in TBC that I used to run heroics with who leveled as holy and did most of it solo.

There's a difference between forcing people to group and providing them with an incentive to do so. Tuning mobs capable of granting xp relative to your level in such a way that only certain jobs could kill them and then rewarding those restricted number of jobs with a trivial amount of xp is fundamentally forcing group play. Creating content intended for groups and rewarding successful groups with gear/etc. that is better than what a solo player could get is providing an incentive. Again, it comes down to people grouping because they want to (incentive) and grouping because they have to (forced).
#195 Jun 06 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
You can't compare 5-man content in WoW to alliance content in FFXI. If you want to compare, compare raid content in WoW to alliance content in FFXI. You'll find a greater spread of diversity and you'll find that boss encounters in WoW raids could be just as entertaining as any FFXI boss encounter...minus the wasted time leading up to the spawn. If you like competition, that's cool. Competition in WoW is found in PvP. You know...player vs. player. You don't go to a player vs. environment event if what you really enjoy is player vs. player content, right?


I apologize deeply, I was actually talking about raids and not 5-man instances. My WoW has already been cleared from my computer and the box is collecting dust somewhere in my apartment and I haven't taken even a small peek to any WoW forums since I quit it about 3 months ago, so I had already forgotten that the bigger instances were called raid instances, hence the "HC instances".
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#196 Jun 06 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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insanekangaroo wrote:
Quote:
I agree on this, but being in a group that constantly shifts and never gets anything accomplished due to people having obligations elsewhere is never fun.


I agree. Therefore I hope they will make groups more flexible so you don't need precisely 6 players (3 DDs, 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 support) to party in a group. 2 people are also a group.


They tried to do this in FFXI but it didn't work. They made it so that at lower levels the need for more people to obtain the same xp was reduced. it was set up so that smaller groups gained xp bonus per kill. in turn smaller groups gained more xp from killing weaker monsters. It was 100% effective in its implementation. Parsing your xp per hour in a duo would often destroy 6 man xp between levels 30-50..

It just didn't work, it didn't matter if it was the path of least resistance. In Fact it was one of the only examples I can think of where the path of least resistance was wholly ignored by the general populace.

*Beats the **** out of me*
I suppose that smaller groups have the problem where each individual has to more responsibility? Perhaps the party seek functionality wasn't robust enough. or some jobs like brd and sch sucked in 2 man groups so they stuck with 6 man. Maybe it just wasn't as fun to duo when you can 6 man?

What ever it was...
I have no idea why the 25% xp bonus in 2 man groups was ignored even after they greatly raise the xp gain from monsters under even match.
#197 Jun 06 2009 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
You have to force it to some extent or nobody will do it. Or at least that is the general consensus with most arguments. While I did run plenty of instances in WoW on my trip to 80 that was ONLY because I was a healer druid... A healer druid before dual spec was FORCED GROUPING in wow. I was forced to run instances constantly or choose not to be a healer.


Resto druids could solo. Resto or not, you still had bear form at level 10 and kitty form starting at level 20 and could still equip dps leather. A dedicated healing spec doesn't level solo as fast as an alternative spec, but solo xp is still an option. I know a holy priest in TBC that I used to run heroics with who leveled as holy and did most of it solo.

There's a difference between forcing people to group and providing them with an incentive to do so. Tuning mobs capable of granting xp relative to your level in such a way that only certain jobs could kill them and then rewarding those restricted number of jobs with a trivial amount of xp is fundamentally forcing group play. Creating content intended for groups and rewarding successful groups with gear/etc. that is better than what a solo player could get is providing an incentive. Again, it comes down to people grouping because they want to (incentive) and grouping because they have to (forced).


Soloing as a resto druid was straight up brd/nin solo in FFXI.. even mobs below my level were a threat. It was SLLLOOOOOWWWWW and even ran higher risk of going OOM. I had to drink fairly often between fights and if I got adds it was usually a battle of attrition hoping that my thorns kill them befor they kill me. Soloing group quests was an impossibility while as balance or feral it was often a joke.

The talent system not allowing for all options to solo equally was at its heart one of the biggest design flaws in WoW and it was a disgusting experience having to choose between playing how I wanted to play or being able to play at all outside of groups. If every mob I encounter takes 3-5 minutes to kill that is @#%^ing retarded and that was exactly how it was and still is even to this day.

In FFXI if I wanted to solo my rdm Id run to my mog house or nomad change my sub and blow through evens and toughs at will. (rdm/bst) Get an invite and main heal like a champ. Dual spec in WoW fixes this problem but my druid hit 80 a couple weeks before it was finally added.. :(

Solo in WoW as a tank or healing spec is absolutely horribly slow.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 7:02pm by thorazinekizzez
#198 Jun 06 2009 at 3:07 PM Rating: Default
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Another thing to add.

If you have ever thought why WoW has much younger playerbase in general than FFXI, one of the reasons is definitely the difficulty level. When something is hard and requires some sort of dedication and effort it tends to drive most of the inpatient kids away, which is only a good thing.

When it comes to the 12-16 year old players, generalization or not, I tend to find most of the worst mannered and ignorant players from somewhere between those years of age, heck, sometimes I can even guess persons age correct from just the way s/he acts and talks to other people.

Another reason why I would like to have the difficulty level of FFXIV somewhat high, because to be honest I wouldn't mind if the game wouldn't have any arrogant youngsters making me see red in most situations, age-racism (i know there's a real term for this, but cant recall what it is, I'm not english) or not.
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#199 Jun 06 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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DeMaWa wrote:
Another thing to add.

If you have ever thought why WoW has much younger playerbase in general than FFXI, one of the reasons is definitely the difficulty level. When something is hard and requires some sort of dedication and effort it tends to drive most of the inpatient kids away, which is only a good thing.


Do try to keep in mind that leveling in FFXI never required any phenomenal amount of skill. It just required phenomenal patience. There's a difference. Difficulty equates to skill. Patience equates to virtue. FFXI kept the kids away because they lacked patience, not because FFXI was a more difficult game. Let's not kid ourselves here.
#200 Jun 06 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:

Solo in WoW as a tank or healing spec is absolutely horribly slow.

Not always true.
Before they changed the entire Seal and Judgment system for Paladins, Protection from 35>70 was the way to go. Pulling 5-10 enemies at a single shot and watching them impale themselves on your shield was a lot faster and more entertaining than waiting for Seal of Command to proc.
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#201 Jun 06 2009 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
They tried to do this in FFXI but it didn't work. They made it so that at lower levels the need for more people to obtain the same xp was reduced. it was set up so that smaller groups gained xp bonus per kill. in turn smaller groups gained more xp from killing weaker monsters. It was 100% effective in its implementation. Parsing your xp per hour in a duo would often destroy 6 man xp between levels 30-50..

It just didn't work, it didn't matter if it was the path of least resistance. In Fact it was one of the only examples I can think of where the path of least resistance was wholly ignored by the general populace.


My guess is that, by the time that change was implemented, players were already just too set in their ways after five years of 6-man partying. Even within the 6-person system, there were always loads of options that were simply ignored. For example, everybody took the Dooms-Qufim-Jungle-Garbaige treadmill, despite there being many different possible routes. Part of it was the fact that risk taking was heavily discouraged by the game mechanics, but the larger part I think was just people being dull. The Dunes were pretty boring by the time your 8th job was going through, but hey, it works.

Every time I ever tried to get a party to try something different at least one person would start moaning about it, and that's really all it takes.

Hopefully there will be better variety in FFXIV, but chances are it'll be the same situation within a couple years of release. It's not like WoW is any different, really. People leveling avoid fun instances because they're inefficient, and they follow leveling guides that outline exactly where to go and which quests to do to ensure that you're geting the fastest xp possible. It's probably inevitable once a game gets older.

BTW, sorry about my double post up at the top of the page. The server was being unfriendly this morning. I also wanted to add that it was heroic hard-mode Mimiron that Ensidia wiped to hundreds of times, not Algalon. Sorry for the confusion.
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