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#202 Jun 06 2009 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Of course, people will always take the easy way out if the option is available to them, that is human nature.


Ya, fancy that...people who like to invest their leisure time doing something that comes easily to them. Go figure.


Yes, not everyone wants easy. You want all the functions of WoW that made it easy, and casual to be put into FFXIV. We understand that. I also understand that just about every MMO released since WoW has tried this, and most have failed. Grinds are a necessery evil in MMO's, because it is impossible for developers to develop content at a rate to keep up with the consumers. Once you understand the limitations on developers then you can accept what MMO's are. Personally, I like working towards a goal and seeing that come to fruition.

You keep saying that a game like FFXI cannot become successful. Well, to me a success is a product that you reap a profit from, not the measurement to WoW, because WoW will never be duplicated again. FFXI is profitable and maintains 500,000 active subscribers far more than most MMO's, yes even LotRO (Which I played for almost a year *puke*) which is as casual, or even more so than WoW. FFXI is successful whether you don't want to realize it or not.

Am I asking for FFXIV to be FFXI part deux? Nope. I'm asking for FFXIV to retain the same feel of accomplishment and group participation that FFXI had. Yes, I want to work a year or two towards a relic. Yes, I want there to be world pops (caveat: 21, 24, 48, 72 hours NOT with 3 hour windows, possible 15 to 30 minute window max with a chance to pop every 5 minutes within that timeframe). No I don't want too much instances, as it takes away from the 'world' feel.

I don't want a casual solo oriented romp. Do I want the game to be 99% group? Nope, but at least 80% or so. Am I right, and you're wrong? No. It's called preference. We are both neither right, or wrong, and you saying we are wrong for wanting our preference, I must ask why do you want every MMO to be the same? Today, just about every MMO that comes out follows the same casual checkoff list. If it was such a recipe for success why then, do most massively flop? The niche that FFXI fills is profitable, is successful, and can keep 1 million subscribers active for many years. You want to play number games, ok, fine. I just want to play something I enjoy and there is not any other next-gen MMO that caters to what I like, so of course I'm going to ask for FFXIV to be more to my liking. You have choices, those of us who like FFXI do not.

#203 Jun 06 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ya know, when you put it that way I can sort of see your point. I mean really, loading screens don't detract from the experience at all. When I leave for work in the morning, I get a loading screen at the front door. It makes sense...I'm leaving the house zone and entering the neighborhood zone. A little while later I black out and all of a sudden I'm in the city zone..I know I just crossed over that imaginary boundary between the two areas so it doesn't really freak me out. Same thing happens when I walk into the door at work...10 second blackout and everything is fine again.

Now that I see your point about how zoning doesn't detract from the experience in any way, I fully understand. Thanks.


Ok Ok. Zoning is not a perfect representation of real life. Neither is jumping into your car, watching it go for about a hundred feet, then switching to a map with a red line that shows your progress on the way to work, then flashing back to you pulling into your parking spot. We're talking about video games for crying out loud and this little feature has gotten a ton of press for the value it gives to the experience.

If I were a betting man, (and actually.. I am :P ) I'd bet on a more seamless world in place for XIV than in XI, ala WoW. We're talking about technical limitations here, not game design. I don't think XI developed the zoning thing because they thought it improved the game, it simply was the way to make XI work on the machine they made it for.

I can honestly say that while I found WoW's more seamless world a neat little surprise, it wasn't anything game changing for me. And compared to the other design/playstyle/mechanics issues that are out there, "will there be zones" is gotta be in the bottom few. If they were there and as common as, say, FFXII then I'd get concerned. I'd guess most people would agree that number of times they zone a day isn't gonna be the defining feature of XIV. XD
#204 Jun 06 2009 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Perspicacity wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Of course, people will always take the easy way out if the option is available to them, that is human nature.


Ya, fancy that...people who like to invest their leisure time doing something that comes easily to them. Go figure.


Yes, not everyone wants easy. You want all the functions of WoW that made it easy, and casual to be put into FFXIV. We understand that. I also understand that just about every MMO released since WoW has tried this, and most have failed. Grinds are a necessery evil in MMO's, because it is impossible for developers to develop content at a rate to keep up with the consumers. Once you understand the limitations on developers then you can accept what MMO's are. Personally, I like working towards a goal and seeing that come to fruition.


Yay! Another WoW guru who has obviously never played the game! Huzzah!

WoW was not without grinds. The difference is, not everything was a grind. WTF is preventing you folks from grasping the concept that not everything is "easy" or "hard"? Why can you not grasp the concept of a gray area? What is so difficult to understand about an idea like "diversity"?

I'm not asking for easy, I'm asking for diverse. Again, I hope...and I mean really hope...you're not one of those scrubs that think waiting forever denotes skill. There's a difference between something that requires patience and something that requires skill.

Quote:
You keep saying that a game like FFXI cannot become successful. Well, to me a success is a product that you reap a profit from, not the measurement to WoW, because WoW will never be duplicated again. FFXI is profitable and maintains 500,000 active subscribers far more than most MMO's, yes even LotRO (Which I played for almost a year *puke*) which is as casual, or even more so than WoW. FFXI is successful whether you don't want to realize it or not.


Because MMOs that do not grow, die. FFXI has had a stagnant population for over 2 years now. LOTRO was absolutely not more casual than WoW. The fact that you think it was just reinforces to me that you know little about WoW. The crafting grind and "Kill 100 Worg in <x zone> for <trivial increase> to <stat>" was in no way casual. I enjoyed LOTRO until I hit the level cap and then it was...non-stop grind.


Quote:
I don't want a casual solo oriented romp. Do I want the game to be 99% group? Nope, but at least 80% or so. Am I right, and you're wrong?


Actually yes, you are wrong. Not because you prefer groups, but because you feel the disturbing urge to apply % values to the scope of the content. You like groups? Yes? OK. Does the game have enough group content to keep you happy? Yes? OK. Beyond that point, it's none of your concern how much solo content is available relative to the rest of the game, because you have what you enjoy and your thinking is fundamentally backwards to think that your preferences deserve the lion's share of the content.

And before you...or anyone else...comes back with the fully retarded retort that that's what advocates for the option to play solo and still progress are asking for, they're not. I personally like a balance. If you like to play primarily in a group you can still see all of the solo content. You can see it solo, or you can see it in a group. ****, you could probably see it sooner in a group than someone could see solo. But when your narrow thinking leads you to the conclusion that "80%" of the content should require a group to experience, you're being a selfish twunt. Share or gtfo.
#205 Jun 06 2009 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
ascorbic wrote:
Ok Ok. Zoning is not a perfect representation of real life. Neither is jumping into your car, watching it go for about a hundred feet, then switching to a map with a red line that shows your progress on the way to work, then flashing back to you pulling into your parking spot. We're talking about video games for crying out loud and this little feature has gotten a ton of press for the value it gives to the experience.


The whole idea is that a savvy developer will sit down and review each aspect of their game and decide if making something realistic adds value to the experience or not. It doesn't have to be earth shattering, game breaking value. Seamless zones do add value to the game. Sitting on a ship for 10 minutes watching nothing but open ocean scroll by when really you just want to get to your destination doesn't add value. In terms of development time, would players prefer to skip the 10 minute wait altogether, or would it be worth it to add landmarks to the ocean to add interest? The not unrealistic outcome? Skip it.

In the case of loadings screens at zones in FFXI, it was, as you said, a case of hardware limitations. Do we reduce the quality of local visuals for the sake of created a seamless world, or do we encapsulate the zones and increase the local visual quality? I don't blame SE for going the route that they did at the time. It's no longer a necessary design concern. Both the PC and PS3 will have plenty of resources to make a seamless world.
#206 Jun 06 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
17 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
Perspicacity wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Of course, people will always take the easy way out if the option is available to them, that is human nature.


Ya, fancy that...people who like to invest their leisure time doing something that comes easily to them. Go figure.


Yes, not everyone wants easy. You want all the functions of WoW that made it easy, and casual to be put into FFXIV. We understand that. I also understand that just about every MMO released since WoW has tried this, and most have failed. Grinds are a necessery evil in MMO's, because it is impossible for developers to develop content at a rate to keep up with the consumers. Once you understand the limitations on developers then you can accept what MMO's are. Personally, I like working towards a goal and seeing that come to fruition.


Yay! Another WoW guru who has obviously never played the game! Huzzah!

WoW was not without grinds. The difference is, not everything was a grind. WTF is preventing you folks from grasping the concept that not everything is "easy" or "hard"? Why can you not grasp the concept of a gray area? What is so difficult to understand about an idea like "diversity"?

I'm not asking for easy, I'm asking for diverse. Again, I hope...and I mean really hope...you're not one of those scrubs that think waiting forever denotes skill. There's a difference between something that requires patience and something that requires skill.

Quote:
You keep saying that a game like FFXI cannot become successful. Well, to me a success is a product that you reap a profit from, not the measurement to WoW, because WoW will never be duplicated again. FFXI is profitable and maintains 500,000 active subscribers far more than most MMO's, yes even LotRO (Which I played for almost a year *puke*) which is as casual, or even more so than WoW. FFXI is successful whether you don't want to realize it or not.


Because MMOs that do not grow, die. FFXI has had a stagnant population for over 2 years now. LOTRO was absolutely not more casual than WoW. The fact that you think it was just reinforces to me that you know little about WoW. The crafting grind and "Kill 100 Worg in <x zone> for <trivial increase> to <stat>" was in no way casual. I enjoyed LOTRO until I hit the level cap and then it was...non-stop grind.


Quote:
I don't want a casual solo oriented romp. Do I want the game to be 99% group? Nope, but at least 80% or so. Am I right, and you're wrong?


Actually yes, you are wrong. Not because you prefer groups, but because you feel the disturbing urge to apply % values to the scope of the content. You like groups? Yes? OK. Does the game have enough group content to keep you happy? Yes? OK. Beyond that point, it's none of your concern how much solo content is available relative to the rest of the game, because you have what you enjoy and your thinking is fundamentally backwards to think that your preferences deserve the lion's share of the content.

And before you...or anyone else...comes back with the fully retarded retort that that's what advocates for the option to play solo and still progress are asking for, they're not. I personally like a balance. If you like to play primarily in a group you can still see all of the solo content. You can see it solo, or you can see it in a group. ****, you could probably see it sooner in a group than someone could see solo. But when your narrow thinking leads you to the conclusion that "80%" of the content should require a group to experience, you're being a selfish twunt. Share or gtfo.


I don't think you quite understand that neither my preference, nor yours is wrong or right. I want a group oriented MMO, you want a more solo oriented or balanced MMO. An opinion can never be right, or wrong. I suggest you take a step back and let off some steam, as you have become too emotionally attached.

Personally, my style of gaming is more aligned to the eastern culture, where as you are a western gamer. I understand. I hope you also understand that every MMO coming out now-a-days follows your prescription for a MMO. You say you want diversity, well I want at least one game that has gameplay that I'm looking for. SWTOR, LoTRO, WAR, and Star Trek are all pushing for a solo, casual oriented style of gameplay. I want the opposite. I want difficult, challenging, time-consuming tasks. I want to work towards a relic, mythic. I want ampoule style reward systems (preferrably not instanced). I want HNM's and NM's with varying pop timers from 30 minutes to 72 hours. Do I want 3 hour pop windows? Nope. 15-30 minute windows should be the max.

I want rare gear to be rare, not only because of difficulty, but also from how long it takes to achieve. Do I want .05%drop rates? Nope. Do I want long treks towards the final like Dyna currency and the like, yes.

Is what I want, any better or worse than what you want? Nope. Is what you want any better or worse than what I want? Nope.

Stop acting like it is. It's childish. You keep postulating that FFXI is not successful. I am not sure on what foundation you base this. FFXI is extremely profitable, and is nearing 7 years old and still has 500,000 users. If that isn't successful, I'm not sure what is.

LotRO is the most casual MMO there is. You can get from 1-60 extremely quick. When MoM came out there were 6 instances. You could get all your *end-game* gear within 8-ish hours. The instances were quick, easy, and repeatable dropping the best gear. I do not want that! Understand that every MMO that comes out today are casual. Those of us who prefer difficulty, time-consuming, tasks and goals and like to play socially in groups don't have the array of choices like you do. It is in fact, you who are imposing on us the minority. Even though, us the minority can still create and maintain a very successful MMO (FFXI) whether you want to admit it or not.
#207 Jun 06 2009 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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296 posts
After finally catching back up on this thread I'm shocked how few posts are on topic anymore. This thread was supposed to be about discussing what things WoW got right and wrong in it's design and could benefit Final Fantasy XIV by learning from WoW experiences. Instead, it's become a massive FFXI vs WoW thread that seems beneath both sides.

Seeing as no one would (or at least, should) be in here unless they had a healthy rooting interest in seeing XIV becoming the best game it can be, I think it's time to remember that XIV isn't going to become either WoW or FFXI. SE is naturally going to borrow from their successful MMO experiences when looking towards their new game. They'd also be naive not to look at what's worked and hasn't worked in the past 6 years of MMO gaming. In fact, as many posts on here point out, SE has been borrowing from WoW and other MMOs with additions like more instanced gaming, increased soloability, and an increased occurence of rare/ex gear! Just because SE will be taking elements from other MMOs out there doesn't mean they won't make these concepts their own, as they have done in the past.

We know XIV will be more casual friendly than XI. How much and in what ways is anyone's guess. But arguing for it to mimic XI's hardcore nature isn't productive, because they've already stated that's not the case.

We also know that it features a very different advancement system than either XI or WoW. Many posts in this thread could have been avoided just by keeping that in mind.


OK, my new thoughts:

I didn't like the one guild design of WoW and felt it really restricted my ability to stretch further out into the community at large. This is an area where I thought FFXI really shined, and hope the linkshell system returns.

In FFXI I had a Social LS of people that I took my first 75 up with, I had sky LS, a Dynamis LS, and a lower level LS of nice first timers I helped with in my free time... oh and my Wife Loved her crafting LS! And if I didn't feel like doing anything together or talking to anyone, I didn't have to wear a pearl at all.

In WoW I had a great bunch of people I knew from work and their relatives, RL friends, ect. that I could never bring myself to leave. But they also weren't a group focused on the same types of content I was interested in, or at least rarely at the same time. End result was I ended up doing far less than if I had the freedom of linking up with like minded adventurers without being forced to leave my friends behind.



Oh, and built in Guild banks in WoW were fantastic! Not much I can add there except I'd be rather disappointed if this feature isn't in every forthcoming MMO from this point forward.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 9:29pm by ascorbic

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 9:31pm by ascorbic
#208 Jun 06 2009 at 5:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,576 posts
Perspicacity wrote:
I don't think you quite understand that neither my preference, nor yours is wrong or right. I want a group oriented MMO, you want a more solo oriented or balanced MMO. An opinion can never be right, or wrong. I suggest you take a step back and let off some steam, as you have become too emotionally attached.


You totally missed what I wrote. I didn't say you're wrong for wanting group content. I didn't say I'm right for enjoying an element of solo content. I said you're wrong to skew the ratio of content in favor of what you want. It's not your opinion I take issue with, it's your inability to read what is written and understand it. It's not about, "I want all solo and you group idiots can **** off." It's about, "I want options and you group-only ninnies who keep whining about the idea of casual play in 'your' game are ridiculous."

I'm not a solo-only advocate. I spent a very substantial amount of my time in WoW in dungeons and raids. I wouldn't want a solo-only MMO any more than you would, but I'm also not so arrogant as to suggest that the majority of the content should be based around my liking.

You can have a game that presents numerous, diverse, unique options for group play. That game can include extremely lengthy processes with outstanding rewards for achieving certain goals. That game can include content that can challenge the most skilled and dedicated players. There's nothing wrong with any of that. That exact same game can, however, include equally numerous, diverse, and unique options for solo play. It can include abbreviated processes with rewards that suit the process but are also satisfying and worthwhile. It can include content to satisfy the most simplistic, casual player.

Nobody needs to find themselves short on content to enjoy because they prefer one style of play more than the other, and that's the entire point.
#209 Jun 06 2009 at 5:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I don't think you quite understand that neither my preference, nor yours is wrong or right. I want a group oriented MMO, you want a more solo oriented or balanced MMO. An opinion can never be right, or wrong.


You're the one who doesn't understand. We don't want a game that's either group-oriented or solo-oriented. We want a game that allows both styles of play.

Why, why, why, WHY can you FFXI fanbois not understand this incredibly simple concept? No matter how many times it's spelled out, plain as day, another one of you jerks insists on assuming that allowing solo-play means that solo play must be the one and only way to play. Nobody has said that, so quit pretending that we have!

If you want FFXI style play, then play FFXI! You undiagnosed OCD cases already have one FF mmo, let those of us who like to have fun play one too.

Again, I hope that FFXIV has lots of group content, as well as difficult time-sinks for the hardcore. There's no reason there can't be both, except that having the option to play casually makes you people cry, because you just aren't 3|337 unless your love of 10 hour game sessions and planning your entire life around your play makes you the only ones who can even consider playing the game.

Don't give me the "we hardcore don't have options" ******** either. Korea has been cranking out nothing but hardcore grindfests for years. A lot of them are even free! Those of us who would like the option to play casually, but still want an immersive and interesting world with great lore and storytelling have nothing.
____________________________
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Graspee wrote:
"Sage". Haha. Yeah, right.
#210 Jun 06 2009 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
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1,457 posts
Quote:
Quote:
I don't want a casual solo oriented romp. Do I want the game to be 99% group? Nope, but at least 80% or so. Am I right, and you're wrong?


I like the grouping thing in FFXI, but most of the time, I don't have time.
I do wonder though.. let's say theoretically it was possible to have it 50/50.. Enough party content vs. enough solo content. Which way would the player base shift? If most went the solo route, then I believe SE has no choice but to capitalize on that. They want to make money right? Again I don't really have a personal opinion on the matter, I just wonder what the % is of people who would prefer to be able to solo to level cap.
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#211 Jun 06 2009 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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372 posts
In honor of ascorbic, here are some more suggestions for the game.

Include flying mounts. Chocobos are birds, after all. Seems like an obvious one, but this is really something that needs to be planned from the start. In WoW, you still can't fly in the original areas, simply because they weren't designed to allow it. Chances are this one is already set in stone as far as FFXIV goes, so it's more of a hope than a suggestion.

Include more rewards for increasing fame/reputation, and include more factions. Make opposing factions, so players have to choose how to progress. There are very interesting storyline opportunities to be had here.

Make it easier to have multiple characters. While I loved having multiple jobs on my one character, I did get fairly tired of staring at an elvaan male *** for five years. Either eliminate things like brutally hard genkai, subjob, and chocobo licensing quests, or make them apply to the entire account. Again, options are nice, and if someone would rather have many characters than one, that should be allowed without requiring a repeat of dozens of incredibly tedious tasks.

I know PvP won't be a focus, but if it is included, make queuing for a match simple, and run matches constantly. If I want to PvP, I shouldn't have to wait 5 hours for the uncapped match and pray that enough people on my server care enough to wait for it too.

Focus on the core gameplay, not flash-in-the-pan minigames that will be ignored after 3 months. Pankration went straight from too popular to get a match in to abandoned. Pretty much all the development time spent on it was a waste. Spend that time tweaking class balance or creating new bosses instead.

And here are a few mistakes made in WoW that I don't want to see SE repeat.

Don't make huge swaths of the world obsolete. I hope that XIV retains the same cohesive world feeling of XI, and I hope that low-level grouping remains viable. As it is now in WoW, 1-70 is just an annoyance to be plowed through as quickly as possible.

Keep dungeons interesting. Making everything a linear kill-spree is boring. Give us mazes with multiple objectives. WoW used to be like that, but that aspect got dumbed down. Fortunately, I have no worries on this subject. This is what SE is good at.
____________________________
FFXI - Seneth RDM Bahamut (retired)
WoW - Somed Hunter Uther (retired)

Graspee wrote:
"Sage". Haha. Yeah, right.
#212 Jun 06 2009 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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296 posts
GuardianFaith wrote:

I like the grouping thing in FFXI, but most of the time, I don't have time.
I do wonder though.. let's say theoretically it was possible to have it 50/50.. Enough party content vs. enough solo content. Which way would the player base shift? If most went the solo route, then I believe SE has no choice but to capitalize on that. They want to make money right? Again I don't really have a personal opinion on the matter, I just wonder what the % is of people who would prefer to be able to solo to level cap.


First, it's hard to keep in mind, but since there is no leveling, it stand to reason there will be no level cap. I'm not trying to nitpick, I just feel that realization is something changes the whole dynamic of the debate. XIV will be about advancing in very different ways than the popular MMOs of today.

Now to answer you question... I would love to see the option for characters to solo in our new MMO at every stage of their career. I also believe there is a need to provide enough incentives to gamers to group during the advancement stage of their career if the devs wish them to party at all before endgame commences.

Forming a party takes time, as does learning party dynamics, and the abilities (and deficiencies) of the members with you that day. It can be awkward and a chore, and without a substantial bonus to parties few people will bother. And why would they?

For me a good balance would make parties a clearly faster way to advance, but not so slow for soloing that people feel it becomes impractical. Of course, again, with this new concept of advancing our character, this line of thinking might not really fit.

Where I'd be really interested in XIV's solo philosophy would be towards end game. Can SE create content for an end game player to do solo that also is fun and meaningfully advances one of the players goals? This is an area you really don't see any MMO's out there do well, if they even try at all.
#213 Jun 06 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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296 posts
Way to play ball, MrSenethSomed! You posted more ideas in your post than the thread got in the last 24 hours combined. ;P

Quote:
Include flying mounts. Chocobos are birds, after all. Seems like an obvious one, but this is really something that needs to be planned from the start. In WoW, you still can't fly in the original areas, simply because they weren't designed to allow it. Chances are this one is already set in stone as far as FFXIV goes, so it's more of a hope than a suggestion.


My first thought was the blasphemy of making flying chocobos! I mean FF has very few permanent conventions, but the chocobos are one of them, lol. However, getting control of an airship was another of those conventions of the main series and I know I absolutely loved flying in WoW. In the trailer we see those totem pole looking flying machines, and I only ever saw one guy flying on the one we see up close. It definitely isn't a run of the mill FF airship. Like you said, this one has been determined, but I'll be rooting for it right along with you.

Quote:
Include more rewards for increasing fame/reputation, and include more factions. Make opposing factions, so players have to choose how to progress. There are very interesting storyline opportunities to be had here.


One of my favorite parts of XI were the city rank missions, and the story with them. Anything that gives SE a reason to make more story and players more choices/customization seems like a win win to me.

Quote:
Don't make huge swaths of the world obsolete. I hope that XIV retains the same cohesive world feeling of XI, and I hope that low-level grouping remains viable. As it is now in WoW, 1-70 is just an annoyance to be plowed through as quickly as possible.


Amen to both of these. Although, to be fair, FFXI didn't always do the best job of keeping zones relevant either. Better than WoW because of the obsolete end game areas that have started to pile up, but it has it's share of deserted zones. I remember going back through as a BST after ToAU and seeing zones that were packed my first time through as a Monk completely dead. I had whole sessions where I'd be the only non RMT in Bibiki Bay, and most of the time the only people I'd run into in Boyada Tree were people crossing through to Fafnir. A lot of great zones went dead because of the substantial advantages Sanction provides when xping. Perhaps level sync has revived some of them, I don't know, but I hope there's less of this in XIV.


Edited, Jun 6th 2009 10:58pm by ascorbic
#214 Jun 07 2009 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
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572 posts
MrSenethSomed wrote:
Quote:
I don't think you quite understand that neither my preference, nor yours is wrong or right. I want a group oriented MMO, you want a more solo oriented or balanced MMO. An opinion can never be right, or wrong.


You're the one who doesn't understand. We don't want a game that's either group-oriented or solo-oriented. We want a game that allows both styles of play.


The problem here comes down to balance then. You need to have very customized classes in order to achieve that. If by definition you want it to be soloable every class in the game needs to be able to dps to advance in the game threw solo, and preferably at the same rate as all other classes since we don’t want to discriminate any class from another when it comes to picking a class that you want to level up solo. WoW have solved this issue with the talentree system where each class have several viable option and one of those option is always to deal damage to let you kill of monsters in order to progress. Also this gets rather complicated and hazardous when you have many classes like in FFXI.
#215 Jun 07 2009 at 1:36 AM Rating: Decent
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2,890 posts
Maldavian wrote:
MrSenethSomed wrote:
Quote:
I don't think you quite understand that neither my preference, nor yours is wrong or right. I want a group oriented MMO, you want a more solo oriented or balanced MMO. An opinion can never be right, or wrong.


You're the one who doesn't understand. We don't want a game that's either group-oriented or solo-oriented. We want a game that allows both styles of play.


The problem here comes down to balance then. You need to have very customized classes in order to achieve that. If by definition you want it to be soloable every class in the game needs to be able to dps to advance in the game threw solo, and preferably at the same rate as all other classes since we don’t want to discriminate any class from another when it comes to picking a class that you want to level up solo. WoW have solved this issue with the talentree system where each class have several viable option and one of those option is always to deal damage to let you kill of monsters in order to progress. Also this gets rather complicated and hazardous when you have many classes like in FFXI.


Thats a very good point actually..
Though in the end when it comes down to quest based XP grinding the developer evens the playing field between classes that can DPs vs classes that cannot because not all quests require tons of combat. Which is an important thing to keep in mind because at its very heart quest based xp is about changing the playing experience and telling a story to keep the experience fresh.

However there is a serious catch!
Quest based progression has to be implemented differently than it is in WOW because it actually discourages grouping as a whole just through its system. If you are to ever attempt to group with some random people in WoW what is the first thing that comes up?

Everyone is on a different quest. "Ah @#%^ it ill just solo for now I already did that one..."

Quest based XP in a Group based game has to be implemented in such a way where everyone who should group has a similar goal. This is extremely important to keep in mind because as it stands right now simply grabbing WoWs quest system and jamming it into FFXI would destroy the games need for grouping entirely.

Grabbing your Campaign tags is an example of a Quest where EVERYONE gets together and works together. Its one of the core principles of a concept where grouping is encouraged simply because everyone has the same goal. You eliminate the need for filtering out under geared or under leveled players BECAUSE NOBODY CARES.. Its a very similar phenomenon that blizzard had accidentally created with winter grasp. I say it was an accident because it became the single most successful event in the game bar non AND IT IS GROUP ORIENTED WITH ZERO STRESS!!!!

Imagine if in WoW you were always on the same quest as everyone else on your way to the top? It would have transformed the game from what it is today, a lonely solo grind fest to people ******** on the main forums that they cannot level properly in raid groups I kid you not.

There are many conflicting goals when you examine WoW and contrast it with FFXI.

Not every class can DPS > Questing takes stress off these classes > Quest systems like the one in WoW discourages grouping > classes that cant DPS are unplayable because they still need to group to do well....

The key isn't to make every job a Solo power house, the answer is to give common goals in a quest system retaining and encouraging group based play. Encouraging group based play for the right reasons. Low level players grouping with high level players both equally challenged pulling together to win back a location on the world map or holding the front lines long enough for reinforcements to arrive. Not go out and kill 5 of these and find 5 of these boring quests....

Take the term LFG and shove it up EverQuests ***..

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 5:47am by thorazinekizzez
#216 Jun 07 2009 at 2:18 AM Rating: Default
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Perspicacity wrote:

Yes, not everyone wants easy. You want all the functions of WoW that made it easy, and casual to be put into FFXIV. We understand that. I also understand that just about every MMO released since WoW has tried this, and most have failed.


Hmm, IIRC ALL have failed.
#217 Jun 07 2009 at 2:39 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:

Because MMOs that do not grow, die. FFXI has had a stagnant population for over 2 years now. LOTRO was absolutely not more casual than WoW. The fact that you think it was just reinforces to me that you know little about WoW. The crafting grind and "Kill 100 Worg in <x zone> for <trivial increase> to <stat>" was in no way casual. I enjoyed LOTRO until I hit the level cap and then it was...non-stop grind.


If an MMO can reach a high number of subscribers in the beginning and those players will continue playing it for 10 years or more, then it’s not a fail. The problem with you AureliusSir is that you consider any game that has less the 11 million subscribers a fail, and in that logic you fail miserably. Is EQ a fail ? Is Linage a fail ? Is EVE online a fail ? For you it’s probably a FAIL since it does not contain the elements of play that you enjoy, but that doesn’t make the game a failure just because you don’t like to play it.

You also have it in your assumption that a MMO HAS TO GROW in order to be successful. There are other ways to do this, like getting a good and healthy subscriber level and KEEP it for long period of time.

Let me take an example, if FF14 releases and it get 3 million users and keep those 3 million playing for 10 year is that a failure?

Oh, and by your definition WoW is a failure as well since MU Online, a Chinese MMO have over 15 million subscribers, does that make WoW a failure?

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 7:48am by Maldavian
#218 Jun 07 2009 at 3:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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The problem with you AureliusSir is that you consider any game that has less the 11 million subscribers a fail, and in that logic you fail miserably.


No the problem is that you keep putting words in other one's mouths, twisting what is being said and making everything a WoW vs. FFXI flame debate which other people don't want to have.
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#219 Jun 07 2009 at 3:54 AM Rating: Decent
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#220 Jun 07 2009 at 3:56 AM Rating: Default
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RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
The problem with you AureliusSir is that you consider any game that has less the 11 million subscribers a fail, and in that logic you fail miserably.


No the problem is that you keep putting words in other one's mouths, twisting what is being said and making everything a WoW vs. FFXI flame debate which other people don't want to have.


Ah, the denial begins, give me something more concrete than that mate.
#221 Jun 07 2009 at 4:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The problem here comes down to balance then. You need to have very customized classes in order to achieve that. If by definition you want it to be soloable every class in the game needs to be able to dps to advance in the game threw solo, and preferably at the same rate as all other classes since we don’t want to discriminate any class from another when it comes to picking a class that you want to level up solo. WoW have solved this issue with the talentree system where each class have several viable option and one of those option is always to deal damage to let you kill of monsters in order to progress. Also this gets rather complicated and hazardous when you have many classes like in FFXI.


Actually, WoW did a rather nice job of making a healer or tank solo-viable. If a DD can kill something in 100 seconds (made up number) a healer or tank would probably kill it in 150. Slower yes, but still viable - and often much much safer (as in they can take on multiple mobs very easily in the case of tanks, or simply never die as a healer).

You know what the solution to a magnitude of classes is? Slower paced class release, more thorough beta testing and reciptiveness to player-based feedback.

I said awhile back that i would like all the classes to be equivalent in performance, just different in playstyle and mechanics (ie, all dd do about the same damage, just they do it through different mechanics). If they did that it would be very easy to balance especially with PVP being a sidenote (at least, thats what i got from the clips i have read from the interview).

If all DD are doing 100 dps and have a bit of utility added to them, if you want to add a new DD class all you have to do is make sure its dps is at about 100 and that it has equivalent utility. If the player base says the utility is overpowered, look at the data, test it out and adjust it accordingly.

And do not rush to release more classes until the current ones are at an acceptable balance scale - it compounds balancing problems very easily.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 8:53am by KacesofCaitsith

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 10:00am by KacesofCaitsith
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#222 Jun 07 2009 at 6:02 AM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:

Actually, WoW did a rather nice job of making a healer or tank solo-viable. If a DD can kill something in 100 seconds (made up number) a healer or tank would probably kill it in 150. Slower yes, but still viable - and often much much safer (as in they can take on multiple mobs very easily.


This right here is an absolute lie...
Not so much for tanks though I do believe tanks can do ok solo now but healers....

Healers are basically screwed...
#223 Jun 07 2009 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
The problem with you AureliusSir is that you consider any game that has less the 11 million subscribers a fail, and in that logic you fail miserably.


No the problem is that you keep putting words in other one's mouths, twisting what is being said and making everything a WoW vs. FFXI flame debate which other people don't want to have.


Glad I'm not the only one that sees it ;D
#224 Jun 07 2009 at 8:48 AM Rating: Default
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Healers are basically screwed...

They are not. Any spec of any class can level just fine, WoW's not that hard. It just takes longer for tank and healer specs and you have to be more careful when you're squishy. But then, most level with a DD spec and then change to a tank/healer spec when they reach endgame anyway.
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#225 Jun 07 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Default
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
This right here is an absolute lie...
Not so much for tanks though I do believe tanks can do ok solo now but healers....

Healers are basically screwed...

That isn't even close to true...

The thing about healers in World of Warcraft, is that there was no such thing as a healer class that wasn't a hybrid class. You had a wide range of damage dealing abilities, as well as a wide range of healing abilities.

All a healer had to do, in order to solo, was use the various attacks that they had at their disposal, that they would have been using primarily if they had chosen to be damage dealers instead of healers.

It also helped that the equipment that healers used for healing, while it was not optimal for damage dealing, still had a decent amount of the stats used for damage dealing.

Now, they almost certainly would not have the required equipment or talents to be strong at damage dealing. But they had enough abilities, and stats, to be capable of soloing.
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#226 Jun 07 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:

Actually, WoW did a rather nice job of making a healer or tank solo-viable. If a DD can kill something in 100 seconds (made up number) a healer or tank would probably kill it in 150.


Hmm why would you even consider going solo as a tank, when you have the option to go dps via the talentree, doesn’t make any sense.
#227 Jun 07 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
Hmm why would you even consider going solo as a tank, when you have the option to go dps via the talentree, doesn’t make any sense.


I can answer this one because I did just this thing. I leveled my paladin as protection spec solo(with occasional groups to do some instances) from 1 to 70 (this was before the latest expansion raised the level cap). The reason I did this was because my endgame goal was to be a tank and I wanted 70 levels of practice using tanking abilities and handling multiple mobs at once under my belt. I always level characters using my endgame spec because for me I think it makes me a better player for the role I'm choosing at endgame.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 1:11pm by frankiecchs
#228 Jun 07 2009 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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frankiecchs wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Hmm why would you even consider going solo as a tank, when you have the option to go dps via the talentree, doesn’t make any sense.


I can answer this one because I did just this thing. I leveled my paladin as protection spec solo(with occasional groups to do some instances) from 1 to 70 (this was before the latest expansion raised the level cap). The reason I did this was because my endgame goal was to be a tank and I wanted 70 levels of practice using tanking abilities and handling multiple mobs at once under my belt. I always level characters using my endgame spec because for me I think it makes me a better player for the role I'm choosing at endgame.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 1:11pm by frankiecchs


We are talking about solo, not grouping now and the only viable way you can skill up your tanking skill ( as in being good to tank in an instance) is to do it in a group, preferably in a instance. So any training you do have to be with a group, since I don’t see the point of training for a tank in solo mode.
With the DualSpec implemented in WoW you can switch back and forth between your specs depending on if you are grouped or not. Again I don’t get the point why you did have tanking mode when you were soloing, because that won’t really help your skill in becoming a good tank.
#229 Jun 07 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:
frankiecchs wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Hmm why would you even consider going solo as a tank, when you have the option to go dps via the talentree, doesn’t make any sense.


I can answer this one because I did just this thing. I leveled my paladin as protection spec solo(with occasional groups to do some instances) from 1 to 70 (this was before the latest expansion raised the level cap). The reason I did this was because my endgame goal was to be a tank and I wanted 70 levels of practice using tanking abilities and handling multiple mobs at once under my belt. I always level characters using my endgame spec because for me I think it makes me a better player for the role I'm choosing at endgame.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 1:11pm by frankiecchs


We are talking about solo, not grouping now and the only viable way you can skill up your tanking skill ( as in being good to tank in an instance) is to do it in a group, preferably in a instance. So any training you do have to be with a group, since I don’t see the point of training for a tank in solo mode.
With the DualSpec implemented in WoW you can switch back and forth between your specs depending on if you are grouped or not. Again I don’t get the point why you did have tanking mode when you were soloing, because that won’t really help your skill in becoming a good tank.

*shrug* I played a Warrior tank in World of Warcraft, and most of the time I would solo with tanking talents.

The reason for this is simple, though it might be hard to understand using FFXI logic... But to try and do so... Warcraft talent trees essentially make one class into 3 different jobs in the FFXI sense.

The similarities between an Arms Warrior, a Fury Warrior, and a Protection Warrior, are as few as the similarities between a WAR, a DRK, and a NIN. The three jobs play very differently, and require different equipment to be successful.

Every character in World of Warcraft, can change between 3 distinctly different playstyles, like characters in FFXI can change between 20 different jobs.

I do not have the necessary equipment to support either Fury or Arms. I tend to solo better as a Protection Warrior, by using my superior Protection equipment. This, combined with the fact that I greatly prefer the playstyle of a Protection Warrior, over the playstyle of Arms or Fury, leads me to not care about the slightly improved damage I could do by switching to a damage dealing job.

EDIT: It's worthy to note that even though Fury Warriors and Arms Warriors are both damage dealers that hit enemies with their weapons, they still require very different equipment. As is currently in game... Arms Warriors emphasize damage primarily through critical hits, and stats that allow you to deal piercing damage through an enemy's armor. Fury Warriors emphasize faster and harder hitting attacks.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 1:59pm by Karelyn
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#230 Jun 07 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
We are talking about solo, not grouping now and the only viable way you can skill up your tanking skill ( as in being good to tank in an instance) is to do it in a group, preferably in a instance. So any training you do have to be with a group, since I don’t see the point of training for a tank in solo mode.
With the DualSpec implemented in WoW you can switch back and forth between your specs depending on if you are grouped or not. Again I don’t get the point why you did have tanking mode when you were soloing, because that won’t really help your skill in becoming a good tank.


First of all, You'll notice I said this was before the expansion raised the level cap. There was no dual spec in the game at that time. Please pay attention.

For me to level solo as DPS and then want to participate in any group play along the way as a tank would have required me to pay for a respec in order to tank and then pay for a respec back to DPS to start soloing as DPS again. Respecs costs rise each time you do it which becomes very prohibitive once you cap out on the costs.

It is also simply untrue that there is no benefit to playing a tanking class solo to learn that classes abilities. If you level a paladin as a DPS class you use an entirely different ability set to play. When you reach 80 and want to tank guess what. You suddenly have a whole different set of abilities that you don't understand the ins and outs of how they work together. Your ability rotation is not second nature to you so instead of being able to watch what is happening in the fight you are paying attention to all of your abilities instead which makes for much more inefficient play.

Also, tanking solo and pulling multiple mobs teaches you very well about what you can and can't survive. It also teaches you how to uses your abilities for survival when things go wrong and lose your healer near the end of a kill.
#231 Jun 07 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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There are other MMO's to learn from as well. Not sure how many people played AoC, but I liked the idea of having your own guild city and having guild members contribute to building it.

Imagine all the great things possible for FFXIV. Areas full of guild halls/guild cities. Perhaps the abilty to build our own moghouses out in the wilderness. How awesome would that be? It's an MMO right? The only goal shouldn't be to just level to max level and collect gear. But be immersed in a world where you're a citizen, living day to day. I know that might seem silly, but so many of us have done the 'level as fast as possible and raid' thing. I want to climb a tree, or swim across a river. Simply because it is there. Or help someone build their moghouse, and defend it against beastmen attacks? I dunno, I just hope we get a lot of new interesting ideas and things to do aside from just levelling.
#232 Jun 07 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

This right here is an absolute lie...
Not so much for tanks though I do believe tanks can do ok solo now but healers....

Healers are basically screwed...


You do know that spell damage and spell healing have been merged right? Sure, they lack some talents which make things faster, but they have all the gear options at their disposal to level easily.

This isnt the days where a healer would have 1000 spell healing but 0 spell damage and would hit you for the base amount of the spell. These are times when that healer has 1000 spell power and just lacks the talent specs to bolster their damage.

So yes, they kill slower - they should - but they can solo at a reasonable pace, and like i said they never die. Sadly in the wow community though, if you are not nuking the mob in 10 seconds it is considered "too slow".

And as someone said - if you are a hybrid you can level as a DD spec and then switch easily to a healer / tank spec for grouping with the dual spec system.
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#233 Jun 07 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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MrSenethSomed wrote:
Include flying mounts. Chocobos are birds, after all.
Ostriches and penguins are birds, too.
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#234 Jun 07 2009 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maldavian wrote:

We are talking about solo, not grouping now and the only viable way you can skill up your tanking skill ( as in being good to tank in an instance) is to do it in a group, preferably in a instance. So any training you do have to be with a group, since I don’t see the point of training for a tank in solo mode.
With the DualSpec implemented in WoW you can switch back and forth between your specs depending on if you are grouped or not. Again I don’t get the point why you did have tanking mode when you were soloing, because that won’t really help your skill in becoming a good tank.


The best reason for a player to level as a tank spec? Because the game allows them to, they aren't hurting anyone, and because they want to. And that's all the reason they need.
#235 Jun 07 2009 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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Perspicacity wrote:
Quote:
Understand that every MMO that comes out today are casual. Those of us who prefer difficulty, time-consuming, tasks and goals and like to play socially in groups don't have the array of choices like you do. It is in fact, you who are imposing on us the minority. Even though, us the minority can still create and maintain a very successful MMO (FFXI) whether you want to admit it or not.


I don't think it's fair for either side to wan't to completely exclude the other from what brought us all to the Final Fantasy series in the first place. And that's the stories and worlds that the series is known for. SE has stated plainly that they want this new MMO to appeal more to the casual gamer than XI accomplshed, and why not?

SE knows that there are millions more FF fans out there than the 500k they have maintained in XI. They also know they have lost many players over the years that loved the story and world of Vana'diel, but left as RL constraints forced them to spend less time, and less time per session than the hefty requirements that were the core of the original (pre ToAU)FFXI experience. These players loved their characters, the world, their friends, and the story of FFXI just as much as you do. And SE intends to recapture their attention with XIV.

No MMO is gonna survive long without "hardcore" content for the most active and dedicated players. Without it, there is no hope of keeping people involved in the game for years at a time. But this new FF MMO can benefit from finding ways to accommodate the time constraints of millions of FF fans, and MMO fans in general... giving them an ability to feel a sense of accomplishment in the world without damaging their real lives. FFXI has worked to bring more solo play, more instanced content, easier leveling requirements, and content designed for shorter play sessions in the last two major expansions. The world of Vana'diel didn't fall apart. Casual content isn't a bad thing, and not every idea in MMO design that originated outside of FFXI is a bad thing either.


FFXI was created by taking many of the concepts that were popular in MMO design at the time, blending some great original concepts of their own, and giving the entire package a distinctive FF feel. XIV is doing the same thing. Is there nothing you find as a RPG fan, a MMO fan, as a fan of games in general that you think works well and would like to see in the new game? Because if you don't then I don't see why you'd be interested in going to a new game to begin with...
#236 Jun 07 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
There are other MMO's to learn from as well. Not sure how many people played AoC, but I liked the idea of having your own guild city and having guild members contribute to building it.

Imagine all the great things possible for FFXIV. Areas full of guild halls/guild cities. Perhaps the abilty to build our own moghouses out in the wilderness. How awesome would that be? It's an MMO right? The only goal shouldn't be to just level to max level and collect gear. But be immersed in a world where you're a citizen, living day to day. I know that might seem silly, but so many of us have done the 'level as fast as possible and raid' thing. I want to climb a tree, or swim across a river. Simply because it is there. Or help someone build their moghouse, and defend it against beastmen attacks? I dunno, I just hope we get a lot of new interesting ideas and things to do aside from just levelling.


I have never played AoC, but your description of guild cities sounds like a great feature. I would love to see something like that implemented. I imagine that watching cities grow in the world had a very immersive feel.

And the entire gist of your post is spot on! In FFXI, I considered my level as a way to enable me to see more areas, learn more of the story, and do things I simply couldn't do at level one. Leveling was the job, and experiencing the world was the joy. Anything outside of the grind is a welcome addition to me.
#237 Jun 07 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The problem here comes down to balance then. You need to have very customized classes in order to achieve that. If by definition you want it to be soloable every class in the game needs to be able to dps to advance in the game threw solo, and preferably at the same rate as all other classes since we don’t want to discriminate any class from another when it comes to picking a class that you want to level up solo. WoW have solved this issue with the talentree system where each class have several viable option and one of those option is always to deal damage to let you kill of monsters in order to progress. Also this gets rather complicated and hazardous when you have many classes like in FFXI.


All this is assuming though that kill speed will be the number 1 factor in leveling up though. SE has already said that they're doing away with the 'experience points' system and that characters will develop in a more natural manner. This implies to me that classes will develop though the use of abilities specific to their role. Under such a system it's entirely possible that healer type classes will be able to 'skill up' solo as well as any other class by simply surviving through their encounters through the use of healing and enfeebling type abilities.

Such a system would also encourage grouping (without forcing it) since support type jobs would develop a different set of skills in a party setting than they would solo. It would be difficult to skill up your buffing abilities if you have no one to buff for example.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 3:44pm by PopeyesOpenEye
#238 Jun 07 2009 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
MrSenethSomed wrote:
Include flying mounts. Chocobos are birds, after all.
Ostriches and penguins are birds, too.
Except Black ostriches and Black penguins aren't known for flying. You stick the word Black in front of the word Chocobo and the bird can suddenly fly.

To try to touch another point, something I'd like to see is encouraged role diversity for classes through inherent class abilities, traits or talents. I'm guessing this is less likely to happen due to the plethora of jobs in the FF mythos, but I'd really like to see hybrid jobs get the opportunity to choose their role without negative repercussions, instead of pigeonholing them into a role from lv10 to the level cap (Red Mage, I'm looking at you).

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 3:44pm by Ruisu
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#239 Jun 07 2009 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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"There really isn’t anything from WoW that we’ve considered for FFXIV. We intend to create something original and worthy of bearing the FF name."
http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2009/06/07/dengeki-interview-e3-2009/
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#240 Jun 07 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Traya wrote:
"There really isn’t anything from WoW that we’ve considered for FFXIV. We intend to create something original and worthy of bearing the FF name."
http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2009/06/07/dengeki-interview-e3-2009/


Absolutely. I'm all for it. And I believe that statement to be genuine.

So when we see statements from the same interview like this:

Quote:
With XI, our original idea was an emphasis on partying. With FFXIV, we’re working to support both solo play and an engaging party system.


Quote:
FFXI was built firmly on the premise of the party system, but FFXIV will try to be more supportive of solo play and any of the other varied things that users would like to do.


Does that mean they're lying in their first statement? Or could it be that diverse options to include rewarding solo play are not something that will make FFXIV "too much like WoW"? I choose the latter.
#241 Jun 07 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kawamoto: We will of course be drawing on bits and pieces of FFXI and the lessons learned to guide us, but our greatest resource is the fans.


And that is the point of alot of these threads. If they actually listen to us, there are features that we would like to see - and they are almost always not exclusive to WoW.
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#242 Jun 07 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think its safe to say every current and former wow player here wants this to be an FF title not a WoW clone.

Ive played WoW and Ive played every FF from 4-12 and the first one (never got the us remakes of 2 and 3). I like many here want a disncitly FF game. What I think we're trying to say is that we DONT want EVERYTHING in 14 to be a horrendous timesink. Horrendous timesinks are fine in their place but not EVERYTHING has to be a horrendous timesink.


Edited, Jun 7th 2009 4:52pm by mezlabor
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#243 Jun 07 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
MrSenethSomed wrote:
Include flying mounts. Chocobos are birds, after all.
Ostriches and penguins are birds, too.
Except Black ostriches and Black penguins aren't known for flying. You stick the word Black in front of the word Chocobo and the bird can suddenly fly.


Because there was an FF title where you could get a black chocobo that would allow you to fly around the world map. If I'm not mistaken, it was restricted to flying over land only (ie. couldn't cross oceans). That's why people equate black chocobos to flying chocobos.

Quote:
To try to touch another point, something I'd like to see is encouraged role diversity for classes through inherent class abilities, traits or talents. I'm guessing this is less likely to happen due to the plethora of jobs in the FF mythos, but I'd really like to see hybrid jobs get the opportunity to choose their role without negative repercussions, instead of pigeonholing them into a role from lv10 to the level cap (Red Mage, I'm looking at you).


From one of the more recent interviews:

Quote:
I would say that the key word for FFXIV is “growth.” We’ve already done the job system in XI, so this time we’re looking at new and interesting concepts for character growth. We hope you like it!


:D
#244 Jun 07 2009 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
Because there was an FF title where you could get a black chocobo that would allow you to fly around the world map. If I'm not mistaken, it was restricted to flying over land only (ie. couldn't cross oceans). That's why people equate black chocobos to flying chocobos.
A few of them. 4,7 and tactics are the first to spring to mind but Im pretty sure the black choco has appeared in other titles too.
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#245 Jun 07 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
While they're smart to distance themselves from WoW, its just a fact that WoW has transformed the MMORPG world. There's tons of things WoW doesn't do perfectly but at a fundamental level some of the things it did were just transformative on how we think about MMOs.

So what I'm saying is whether they like it or not, they will be borrowing from WoW on some level just in the way MMOs are made now. One of the biggest thing is the concept of what customers want. Ability to solo when they want? More flexible time schedule? etc.
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#246 Jun 07 2009 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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743 posts
Instances
Instanced battles are something WoW got right, however having instance entrances in the middle of a city completely takes me out of the game. Don't make it too difficult to get to an instance, but at least put it in a place that makes sense.

Notorious Monsters
The open world NMs in WoW take barely any time to repop. While this makes the items they drop less rare, it also means that anyone who wants to can try to kill them. This is a far better system than FFXI. Put the really rare stuff in instances. You shouldn't have to compete with the game and other players.

Crafting
Both FFXI and WoW have their pros and cons when it comes to crafting. In FFXI a high level crafter is a highly sought after individual and it can be a very lucrative career. The downside is that crafting in FFXI is extremely difficult to get into. Most players don't have nearly enough time or money to sink into becoming a decent crafter and, with little exceptions, there are no rewards for crafting until you reach 100.

WoW crafting, on the other hand, is much more accessible. Anyone can pick up a craft and immediately start leveling it. If you level your craft while you level your character, you'll almost always be able to make useful items for yourself. The flipside is, once you're done making stuff for yourself and your friends, there's not much you can do with your craft. Because it's so accessible, just about anyone can be a high level crafter and there's no demand for the items you can make.

Personally, I prefer WoW's system, but it'd be nice to see a combination of the two. A crafting system that is easy to get into and get results from, but that is difficult to master.

Farming
In WoW, if I need leather I'll go kill some monsters and skin them. The more time I spend doing this, the more leather I'll get. If I can't farm the materials I can go to an NPC and buy them.
In FFXI, if I need leather I'll go kill some monsters and hope they drop leather. I could spend hours doing this and have nothing to show for it. If I can't farm the materials I can go to an NPC and wait for an hour until the shop opens, and then hope that I'm fast enough to buy what I need before someone else does. Since the NPC sells only a very very small amount of items it is unlikely I'll get what I need.

The only factor in farming should be how much time you put into it.

Death
Death should always be a bad thing, but in FFXI it was game breaking. The EXP penalty made every task in the game a chore.
The Linkshell wants to farm Sky?
I don't know... I'm already close to deleveling. I'll go next time.
A friend wants help on a mission?
Jeez, I already did that one, and it took me days to get back all the EXP I lost.
A noob needs help getting his level cap items?
Ha! Are you kidding me? I'm not gonna risk my neck for someone I don't even know!

When you die in WoW your gear takes a damage hit and you need to spend money to repair it. Nobody wants to have to repair their gear, but that possibility is not going to keep them from doing any of the above examples.

The penalty should be high enough so that having a White Mage or someone else to raise you would be worthwhile, but low enough so that it doesn't make you want to stop what you're doing. Taken a durability hit and having to walk back to your party from the home point is enough.

Interface
Square-Enix needs to learn the difference between changing the way your screen looks and cheating. Every other MMO understands that interface mods are a huge part of the community and keep players happy. Trying to outlaw them only loses you customers.
#247 Jun 07 2009 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
JenovasPuppet wrote:

Interface
Square-Enix needs to learn the difference between changing the way your screen looks and cheating. Every other MMO understands that interface mods are a huge part of the community and keep players happy. Trying to outlaw them only loses you customers.


In this case, it's important to remember that FFXI and FFXIV are available on consoles as well as PC, and it's much more difficult for the average Joe to write mods for a console. I don't think it would be fair to console players for SE to implement the option to mod for PC, given the potential for UI mods to dramatically alter the way content has to be tuned. To use WoW as an example, if half the raiders in WoW were unable to use things like DBM, Omen, clique/grid/healbot, etc., those mods would have broken end-game content.

I personally like the idea of diverse UI customization, but not if it means a significant segment of the playerbase could be put at a disadvantage.
#248 Jun 07 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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401 posts
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
While they're smart to distance themselves from WoW, its just a fact that WoW has transformed the MMORPG world. There's tons of things WoW doesn't do perfectly but at a fundamental level some of the things it did were just transformative on how we think about MMOs.

So what I'm saying is whether they like it or not, they will be borrowing from WoW on some level just in the way MMOs are made now. One of the biggest thing is the concept of what customers want. Ability to solo when they want? More flexible time schedule? etc.


I agree, and i'm ok with that. But if the game is 95% solo (ala WoW) and you hit max level within 2-3 weeks I have a bit of a problem with that. YES SOLO SHOULD BE AN ASPECT OF THE GAME! I won't deny that, but the rewards from partying to get experience should be greater than soloing, otherwise no one will do it and once again there will be no partying aside from endgame and/or if they carry over things like promyvians/boss fight/missions/etc.

No matter how many down rates I get, (not directed at you personally digital) i'm entitled to an opinion to and I really hope that the party/solo thing doesn't become like how it is in WoW where NO ONE does it unless you run an instance (which before northrend rarely happens w/o a high level) or your doing endgame.
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FFXI: Server Ifrit
Licksthekitty - 68THF/41WHM/37NIN/30BLM/20COR Mithra Retired

WoW: Realm Darkspear
Claybosmash - 80 Orc Warrior Retired
Ipwnrice - 70 Undead Rogue Retired


#249 Jun 07 2009 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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743 posts
AureliusSir wrote:

In this case, it's important to remember that FFXI and FFXIV are available on consoles as well as PC, and it's much more difficult for the average Joe to write mods for a console.


Good point. Personally I don't like using UI mods, they always seem to just get in the way. I just don't want to see another Windower debacle.

Also, I forgot one:

Quests
I loved the storyline in FFXI. For me, completing a quest or mission was it's own reward because each story was so compelling. I would gladly travel half way around the world to find out why that guy's daughter is possessed.

Others don't feel the same as I do, and that's okay. Many players, seemingly the majority, only want to do quests if there is a proper reward.

The problem is, in a game as group focused as FFXI, this makes many quests impossible. If I want to complete a quest just for story, I won't be able to find anyone willing to do the quest with me. Heck, there was one quest I was never able to complete that simply involved 4 people riding chocobos to a certain location. Nobody wanted to join because there was nothing in it for them.

WoW, on the other hand, has rewards for all quests. While some quests may have better physical rewards than others, every quest in the game has an EXP reward. When WoW does have a quest that requires a group, you'll be able to find people who want to do it with you.

To say that WoW's story was underwhelming is the understatement of the century. The NPCs may as well have said "To complete quest: Kill 10 bears." Heck, most NPC's did say that! I still enjoyed doing the quests though, because even though the story was uninteresting, I still got something out of it.

SE has already said that they want FFXIV to be every bit as story focused as FFXI, I just hope that they also provide incentives for those that aren't interested in story.
#250 Jun 07 2009 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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572 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
Traya wrote:
"There really isn’t anything from WoW that we’ve considered for FFXIV. We intend to create something original and worthy of bearing the FF name."
http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2009/06/07/dengeki-interview-e3-2009/


Absolutely. I'm all for it. And I believe that statement to be genuine.

So when we see statements from the same interview like this:

Quote:
With XI, our original idea was an emphasis on partying. With FFXIV, we’re working to support both solo play and an engaging party system.


Quote:
FFXI was built firmly on the premise of the party system, but FFXIV will try to be more supportive of solo play and any of the other varied things that users would like to do.


Does that mean they're lying in their first statement? Or could it be that diverse options to include rewarding solo play are not something that will make FFXIV "too much like WoW"? I choose the latter.


Lying is a harsh word, the problem is this, we don’t know what they mean with solo friendly or supportive solo play, it could mean anything really, we can speculate endlessly to later find out that, “oh nice, it's even more solo friendly then WoW”, or *******, this so called solo play was almost as bad as in FFXI”. There is a huge spectrum in between and we don’t know where SE has put FF14. All we can do is wait and see until we get some more concrete information about the game play to make a direct and calculated assumption of the solo play in FFXI.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 6:06pm by Maldavian
#251 Jun 07 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Default
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572 posts
KacesofCaitsith wrote:
Quote:
Kawamoto: We will of course be drawing on bits and pieces of FFXI and the lessons learned to guide us, but our greatest resource is the fans.


And that is the point of alot of these threads. If they actually listen to us, there are features that we would like to see - and they are almost always not exclusive to WoW.


I find this really hard to believe as there is no official forum to communicate with the fans.
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