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#252 Jun 07 2009 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
To use WoW as an example, if half the raiders in WoW were unable to use things like DBM, Omen, clique/grid/healbot, etc., those mods would have broken end-game content.

There is actually a rather humorous story about this in WoW.

When Sunwell Plateau was released, Blizzard decided to block everyone from using any addons at all in the instance, ONLY the default UI, until the last boss was killed.

The guild that had been ranked number one in the world, Nihilum, that had consistently killed bosses before any other guild... Wound up taking the third kill...

"Hilarity Drama Hilarious Drama Ensued"

Which ultimately culminated in Nihilum breaking up and reforming under a new name later. I love watching drama :P

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 6:10pm by Karelyn
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#253 Jun 07 2009 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmmm Im really conflicted on so many things with the release of this game.... for starters I played WoW for about 2 years but maintained my ffxi account the things i loved about wow were the things that I hated about 11.
I HATED zoning into a level and I loved the fact that wow had an open world...

I hated that I couldnt jump in ffxi but I hated how all the idiots in WoW would jump every where they went looking like bounding idiots. So im not sure about jumping my absolute favorite thing about WoW will probably seem very simplistic but the fact that you can swim..... to me was amazing.

The Thing I hated about ffxi was you could spend years camping KB and still only see one D ring drop in the claims you get which I think is horrible but I also hate how everyone in WoW has supergearxomguberpieceofdeathglowingshoulderpads x2 and i mean everyone. Getting gear in 11 felt like an accomplishment but it also was very tedioius perhaps some middle ground could be met.

I also like spawn nms but think their windows are a bit rediculous. Also I think Anywhere PvP could add a very interesting aspect to the game. And before anyone says well what if youre fighting a NM and someone attacks you it could be as simple as once you are in combact with a particular monster class (notorious monster) you cant be attacked by players.
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#254 Jun 07 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
KacesofCaitsith wrote:
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Kawamoto: We will of course be drawing on bits and pieces of FFXI and the lessons learned to guide us, but our greatest resource is the fans.


And that is the point of alot of these threads. If they actually listen to us, there are features that we would like to see - and they are almost always not exclusive to WoW.


I find this really hard to believe as there is no official forum to communicate with the fans.


And I want to add my voice (if the devs are looking) to plead for an official forum where we know we are communicating with the devs, and the devs are constantly in communication with the players. It won't make the top ten of any list about what people want in XIV, but it's a powerful tool that gives players a huge boost of confidence that the information they are getting is genuine, and that the devs are listening. When consistently used by the dev team, it also gives the players just that much more insight into the future of the game.
#255 Jun 07 2009 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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Ipwnrice wrote:
I agree, and i'm ok with that. But if the game is 95% solo (ala WoW) and you hit max level within 2-3 weeks I have a bit of a problem with that. YES SOLO SHOULD BE AN ASPECT OF THE GAME! I won't deny that, but the rewards from partying to get experience should be greater than soloing, otherwise no one will do it and once again there will be no partying aside from endgame and/or if they carry over things like promyvians/boss fight/missions/etc.


Again, you're wanting to impose restrictions on one group of players so that the options you prefer in a game are more readily available to you. That's kinda selfish. As a point of fact, a well organized group running an appropriate level dungeon in WoW will earn more xp than a solo player who spends the same amount of time off killing at-level mobs on their own. The reason why solo play is often preferred is not because of the way the game is tuned, but because of the human factor. Well organized PUGs are hard to find. Building a group takes time. Waiting for everyone to arrive at the designated spot takes time. You have to wait while your tank/healer goes afk. Some idiot runs off and aggros a pack of mobs and you have to recover from the wipe. Someone whose level says that they have the necessary skills associated with their class is unable to make appropriate use of them and it slows the group down.

You will never be able to eliminate the human factor in an MMO, which is why soloing quite frequently becomes the preferred option. It's not a case of "95%" of the content being tuned for solo play, because it's not. The vast majority of level 10+ zones in WoW have at least one instance in them. It makes sense that the zones themselves would be larger because you have to share the mobs in them with anyone else who happens to be there whether you're grouped with them or not. Instances are smaller but your group gets all of the mobs to themselves. There are also usually multiple instances for a given level range which means that you're not forced to run X instance because you're Y level.

If a players chooses to spend "95%" of their time on solo content, it doesn't mean that 95% of the game's content is dedicated to solo play. It means that that's how the player chose to spend their time, and there's a very significant difference.

What happens if you're in a group and you want to go over <here> and some other guy wants to go over <there>? Instances eliminate a great deal of that confusion. Instead of inviting people to xp in a specific zone and then arguing over what camp to go to or cruising to find a spot that isn't currently being used, you know exactly where you can go and you just get it done. By the same token, if you just want to run off and explore on your own without worrying about where anyone else wants to go, you don't need to vastly out-level the zones you're exploring to be able to focus on exploring and not getting your *** kicked.

So it comes down to the same thing: you're fully entitled to prefer a certain aspect of play in an MMO, but when you start suggesting that the content be tuned and restricted to favor your preferred method of play, you're just being selfish.
#256 Jun 07 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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JenovasPuppet wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

In this case, it's important to remember that FFXI and FFXIV are available on consoles as well as PC, and it's much more difficult for the average Joe to write mods for a console.


Good point. Personally I don't like using UI mods, they always seem to just get in the way. I just don't want to see another Windower debacle.


I think that any time you're talking about a game on a PC, the nature of the platform is that people are going to find ways to mod to a certain extent whether the developer supports it or not. I think the key is to offer players enough of what they want from a UI so that your average player is going to be content with it. I had mixed feelings about the windower. I never used it, but at the same time I couldn't help but feel a little resentful that I couldn't tab out. What I really took issue with was all the "extra features" that ended up being developed for the windower. I tried to be the nice guy by not using it because SE said that it was 'forbidden', but eventually found myself behind the eight-ball in terms of performance because I was stuck with a UI that limited my performance relative to someone with multiple full time on-screen cooldown counters, range counters, etc.

If the stock UI for FFXIV is robust and customizable to a reasonable degree, I'll be happy with it.
#257 Jun 07 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
Because there was an FF title where you could get a black chocobo that would allow you to fly around the world map. If I'm not mistaken, it was restricted to flying over land only (ie. couldn't cross oceans). That's why people equate black chocobos to flying chocobos.
More than one, actually. I'd say the day we'd ever get flying Chocobo, they'd all have to be black chocobo (maybe gold if you take FFIX into consideration).

Quote:
From one of the more recent interviews:

Quote:
I would say that the key word for FFXIV is “growth.” We’ve already done the job system in XI, so this time we’re looking at new and interesting concepts for character growth. We hope you like it!
You as well as I know there's more to this. If the system is entirely focused on growth through weapons used, this won't be so much of an FF game but more like Romancing SaGa Online. >.>;
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#258 Jun 07 2009 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ruisu wrote:
Quote:
I would say that the key word for FFXIV is “growth.” We’ve already done the job system in XI, so this time we’re looking at new and interesting concepts for character growth. We hope you like it!
You as well as I know there's more to this. If the system is entirely focused on growth through weapons used, this won't be so much of an FF game but more like Romancing SaGa Online. >.>;


Well, ya. I don't interpret anything they've said as suggesting that growth will be through weapons used. It may well be, but I haven't seen anything that says that will be the case. I've read that they plan on weapons playing an integral role in how you choose to develop your character, and that you may choose one weapon one day for a particular task and another weapon a different day for a different task. I don't take that to mean that the weapons themselves will be linked to your skill development (although they may well be). It could just as easily mean that if you want to develop your skills as a tank, you might use a sword and a shield. If you want to focus on melee dps, you'd go for a 2h weapon or dual wield. If you prefer the caster style, you'd go for a stave or a wand, and the weapons would offer stat augments to support that role.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 4:07pm by AureliusSir
#259 Jun 07 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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I find this really hard to believe as there is no official forum to communicate with the fans.


They have either a bot or a person read / post to this forum... albeit rarely.


You work with what you have, however crappy it can be.
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#260 Jun 07 2009 at 4:57 PM Rating: Default
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Karelyn wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
This right here is an absolute lie...
Not so much for tanks though I do believe tanks can do ok solo now but healers....

Healers are basically screwed...

That isn't even close to true...


It is flat out absolutely ******* true.
I have a healer spec druid with a Balance sub right now. I change to balance and I am killing mobs in 3-4 seconds. I change to Restoration and we are talking minutes for the same monster. The disparity between the specs in solo is massive. And thats with just my healing gear, My moonkin form is actually lacking essential stats like +crit ect.

You go from ONE SHOTING MONSTERS to slowly casting pathetic nukes and self healing between every few casts. Its Pathetic design and would have been the sole reason I left the game had I not known about dual spec around the corner.

Having to pay 1k gold at level 40 to escape this ****** design would have been on par with getting a brown belt. ;P

#261 Jun 07 2009 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
It is flat out absolutely @#%^ing true.

I have a healer spec druid with a Balance sub right now. I change to balance and I am killing mobs in 3-4 seconds. I change to Restoration and we are talking minutes for the same monster. The disparity between the specs in solo is massive. And thats with just my healing gear, My moonkin form is actually lacking essential stats like +crit ect.

You go from ONE SHOTING MONSTERS to slowly casting pathetic nukes and self healing between every few casts. Its Pathetic design and would have been the sole reason I left the game had I not known about dual spec around the corner.

I question your intelligence.

Stop tryign to solo in tree form. Attack mobs with moonfire, wrath, starfire, etc, in your humanoid form, just as if you were in moonkin form. Mobs should die in at most 8-10 seconds. Minutes is an absurd exagguration.

Specialization is important. Gear is more important. I don't care what excuses you make. If you have the gear necessary to one-shot mobs in balance spec, you should be capable of two-shotting mobs if you wear the same gear in restoration spec. At the very worst, three-shotting, but even that is a stretch.

Your exaggerations are impossible to believe.
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#262 Jun 07 2009 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
It is flat out absolutely @#%^ing true.
I have a healer spec druid with a Balance sub right now. I change to balance and I am killing mobs in 3-4 seconds. I change to Restoration and we are talking minutes for the same monster. The disparity between the specs in solo is massive. And thats with just my healing gear, My moonkin form is actually lacking essential stats like +crit ect.

You go from ONE SHOTING MONSTERS to slowly casting pathetic nukes and self healing between every few casts. Its Pathetic design and would have been the sole reason I left the game had I not known about dual spec around the corner.

Having to pay 1k gold at level 40 to escape this sh*tty design would have been on par with getting a brown belt. ;P



Compare leveling solo as a WHM to leveling solo as a holy priest in WoW. I think there's your difference. Tank and healer specs have always been group-centric in WoW; if you choose to level with a group-centric spec, you do so knowing that you're not going to see anywhere near the level of efficiency as a dps spec, but it doesn't mean you're incapable of killing mobs that grant decent xp. I was doing my dailies just fine as an 80 resto druid in kitty form wearing dps leather. There's a difference between "impossible" and "not nearly as efficient as".

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 6:10pm by AureliusSir
#263 Jun 07 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It is flat out absolutely @#%^ing true.
I have a healer spec druid with a Balance sub right now. I change to balance and I am killing mobs in 3-4 seconds. I change to Restoration and we are talking minutes for the same monster. The disparity between the specs in solo is massive. And thats with just my healing gear, My moonkin form is actually lacking essential stats like +crit ect.

You go from ONE SHOTING MONSTERS to slowly casting pathetic nukes and self healing between every few casts. Its Pathetic design and would have been the sole reason I left the game had I not known about dual spec around the corner.

Having to pay 1k gold at level 40 to escape this sh*tty design would have been on par with getting a brown belt. ;P


And like i said before - to the wow community if your not exploding the monster near instantly it is considered "slow". The fact that you exagerate this much reinforces that belief.

And you also cherry picked the worst case for your arguement - you should have been in kitty form with leather physical dps gear. When i played wow, my rl friend was a druid who alternated between resto/feral as the guild needed for raids. Often, during mid raid we would need her to switch roles (pre dual spec) so she would just toss her feral gear on as a resto druid. She did rather well on the dps chart, obviously not in the top ranks, but no where near "pathetic".

Edit:

In before "no way am i building two gear sets for two different roles!"

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 9:56pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#264 Jun 07 2009 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:


Again, you're wanting to impose restrictions on one group of players so that the options you prefer in a game are more readily available to you. That's kinda selfish. As a point of fact, a well organized group running an appropriate level dungeon in WoW will earn more xp than a solo player who spends the same amount of time off killing at-level mobs on their own. The reason why solo play is often preferred is not because of the way the game is tuned, but because of the human factor. Well organized PUGs are hard to find. Building a group takes time. Waiting for everyone to arrive at the designated spot takes time. You have to wait while your tank/healer goes afk. Some idiot runs off and aggros a pack of mobs and you have to recover from the wipe. Someone whose level says that they have the necessary skills associated with their class is unable to make appropriate use of them and it slows the group down.


I don't see how its being selfish if both aspects will get you to max level. And you yourself admit that there is MUCH more effort into putting together a well functioning group, why should they NOT get more benefit from being in a party? I don't mean to say that solo gets shafted and earns next to nothing, but for dealing with that tank/healer that goes afk, or the idiot that aggros the entire room, there should be MORE benefit to being in a party. Again I don't see how that is selfish, both sides are able to earn xp, level, and play how they want to play.

I'm not wanting to turn this into an OMG wow sux and OMG FFXI is the greatest although this thread is already pretty close to that, I play WoW as well (although i'm beginning to stop again since i've started playing FFXI again and my guild in is limbo atm), I like a lot of aspects of the game, yes 14 needs to implement a lot of them. But the balance in being able to solo and doing grouping can be done better than both WoW and FFXI. Lets just hope SE can pull it off.
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#265 Jun 07 2009 at 6:28 PM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
I question your intelligence.

Stop tryign to solo in tree form. Attack mobs with moonfire, wrath, starfire, etc, in your humanoid form, just as if you were in moonkin form. Mobs should die in at most 8-10 seconds. Minutes is an absurd exagguration.

Specialization is important. Gear is more important. I don't care what excuses you make. If you have the gear necessary to one-shot mobs in balance spec, you should be capable of two-shotting mobs if you wear the same gear in restoration spec. At the very worst, three-shotting, but even that is a stretch.

Your exaggerations are impossible to believe.
This. A druid has no reason to complain, especially with what they're capable of in Kitty and bear form regardless of spec (which is much better than what a leveling prot warrior had to deal with when TBC first hit). Not even priests can open their mouths, since lolsmite is actually a very potent way to kill things (****, some priests spec lolsmite the way paladins used to spec shockadin). That's not even mentioning how a Disc or Holy/Disc priest is near unkillable these days. So no, healers are not boned.
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#266 Jun 07 2009 at 6:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ipwnrice wrote:
I don't see how its being selfish if both aspects will get you to max level.


Did you read what he wrote? He wants "80%" of the content tuned for group play. What's the implication? That he wants the game designed in a way to continue to force grouping because he's afraid that if grouping isn't forced, he won't get to enjoy the aspects of the game that he wants to play. And that, by very definition is selfish if not borderline fascist.

Quote:
And you yourself admit that there is MUCH more effort into putting together a well functioning group, why should they NOT get more benefit from being in a party?


You shouldn't get the benefit just because you're in a party. The benefit should come from being in a party that performs well, and all too often that turns out to not be the case.

Quote:
I don't mean to say that solo gets shafted and earns next to nothing, but for dealing with that tank/healer that goes afk, or the idiot that aggros the entire room, there should be MORE benefit to being in a party. Again I don't see how that is selfish, both sides are able to earn xp, level, and play how they want to play.


Absolutely. I'm 100% in favor of incentives for grouping. I just think..again...that it's selfish for people who want to see the game tuned in such a way that players feel forced to group as opposed to joining a group because they want to because the incentives are appealling. You can create a 50/50 split of group/solo options and if people want to group, they will. That's fair. Create an 80/20 split of group/solo options and people are going to feel that they have to group or they're going to miss out on the majority of what the game has to offer. WoW has a roughly 50/50 split (with end-game heavily favoring group content). Someone who doesn't want to have a hard time forming a group whenever they want one sees that and the selfish lil devil on their shoulder starts to look at how that could be corrected to suit them, and they start spouting off with ideas that don't take into account what other players enjoy.

Selfish.
#267 Jun 07 2009 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, and they only left moldy earring unchanged? Oh, gee, great. I went 1/16 on mine, and for every claim I missed 2. That's 48 Profblix spawns it took me to get the **** thing. If we're very conservative and assume I only waited 2 hours for each, that's 96 hours spent getting that earring, or 4 solid days. Yeah, that's reasonable. FFXI fanbois always talk about the "sense of accomplishment" that comes from getting an item like that. When I was finally done, I didn't feel a sense of accomplishment, I felt blessed relief that I could finally get the get out of that ugly dungeon.


I went 4/5 on mysticmaker, and I spent maybe 10 hours max camping him. If you were actually staying there wasting time for the 2 hours between pops you were doing something wrong.

Quote:
Charby? Oh Jesus. 12 hours between windows, which could last 6 hours or more. I was only ever able to get it because I had surgery done which confined me to my *** for a couple weeks. Do you know how hard it is to get several people to agree to stand around with their thumbs up their asses for up to six hours just so you can have a sword? I had to get very lucky to have a NIN and BRD friend online at the same time that for once the spawn was uncontested and it was 5 hours into the window. Sense of accomplishment? I sat in a dank pit for two weeks until I got lucky. WOOOHOOOO so much fun!


Leave your character there to get ToD, come back at 8 hours after death and just come back to the screen every 18 minutes while you do something besides ffxi. Then when it pops it's very, very easy to convince friends to come help you. It's not too hard.

Quote:
The only thing WoW got right and really nailed it home was levels 1-79.. leveling experience is even until today the most casual and least boring experience any MMO has provided to date.

Where as in FFXI the games biggest weakness was its leveling. A stark contrast from WoW in the same meaningful ways.


Leveling in WoW was so boring it felt like I was banging my head against the keyboard.. <.<; For me at least. When I got a good party in ffxi it was fun. The only problem was finding a party.

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Except Black ostriches and Black penguins aren't known for flying. You stick the word Black in front of the word Chocobo and the bird can suddenly fly.


When I think black chocobo I think "it an go over mountains AND water!?" Smiley: tongue Gold is the only chocobo I've known to fly, but to be fair I've yet to play my 2,4,5, and 6 games because of "time constraints". <.<;
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#268 Jun 07 2009 at 6:57 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:


Did you read what he wrote? He wants "80%" of the content tuned for group play. What's the implication? That he wants the game designed in a way to continue to force grouping because he's afraid that if grouping isn't forced, he won't get to enjoy the aspects of the game that he wants to play. And that, by very definition is selfish if not borderline fascist.


No I don't think 80% of the game should be group oriented. That pretty much IS forcing people to group and that isn't fair.

Quote:
You shouldn't get the benefit just because you're in a party. The benefit should come from being in a party that performs well, and all too often that turns out to not be the case.


I agree you shouldn't just get the benefits because your in a group, functioning well and chaining XP (which is something I hope they still keep) should net you more xp. But the party will be taking on harder mobs with greater risks and should be rewarded more for it.

I don't think we are really to far from wanting the same thing, its obvious your a bit more solo oreiented while I am more geared toward a party (although family/work would make me solo a good deal to which is why it should be represented well). The points about WoW I disagree on but its not important, this is the FFXVI forum not a WoW one, no sense in arguing over another game. In the end SE will be borrowing some things from WoW I can't even begin to deny that, but balance of things isn't uncalled for, and there are aspects of FFXI that should not be ignored as well.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 9:58pm by Ipwnrice
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#269 Jun 07 2009 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
I'm 100% in favor of incentives for grouping. I just think..again...that it's selfish for people who want to see the game tuned in such a way that players feel forced to group as opposed to joining a group because they want to because the incentives are appealling. You can create a 50/50 split of group/solo options and if people want to group, they will. That's fair. Create an 80/20 split of group/solo options and people are going to feel that they have to group or they're going to miss out on the majority of what the game has to offer. WoW has a roughly 50/50 split (with end-game heavily favoring group content). Someone who doesn't want to have a hard time forming a group whenever they want one sees that and the selfish lil devil on their shoulder starts to look at how that could be corrected to suit them, and they start spouting off with ideas that don't take into account what other players enjoy.
This is true. If grouping yields notably greater rewards, more people will do it and solo will become moot. There needs to be an equilibrium between the two. I agree that WoW gives you that 50/50 leeway. I could make a fresh character today, get them to 80 wearing only greens, but if I wanted to even think of doing heroic dungeons or endgame raids, the only way I'll be fully prepared is to run instances with groups to gear up. That seems fair to me, since the leveling process can be done at your own pace, while keeping group dungeons completely viable and a good way to earn some exp while getting gear to top it off. Still, they'd not be mandatory and a roadblock in the leveling process.
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#270 Jun 07 2009 at 9:00 PM Rating: Default
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One thing I learned in wow was that 'Pulling' abilities that were available on the rouge and hunter classes were largely ignored by the populace.

I would like to keep the idea of a 'puller' in party play in FFXIV, as opposed to just having the tank run in and pull the aggro. I was nice to see a clean pull by a ranger run in with exactly the mob the group wanted and to take aggro.

And it made more sense as to why those classes had higher evasion and special trapping/binding techniques. The stealth abilities of a Thief in FFXI was far more appreciated in group play than the stealth abilities of a Rouge in WOW in group play.

I think having a 'puller' also adds more depth to the group play.

In WOW group play takes on 3 roles: Tank, healer, and DPS.

I liked the additions to group play in FFXI that included a 'Puller' and 'Support' class.

A bard might be able to heal a little, but the focus is on Buffing the party. Poor enhancement Shamans and Discipline priests in WOW get forced into Main heal roles, without an appreciation for support abilities.

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#271 Jun 07 2009 at 9:11 PM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
I liked the additions to group play in FFXI that included a 'Puller' and 'Support' class.


Quote:
A bard might be able to heal a little, but the focus is on Buffing the party. Poor enhancement Shamans and Discipline priests in WOW get forced into Main heal roles, without an appreciation for support abilities.

Meh. Discipline priests ARE healers. And Enhancement Shamans are actually Damage Dealers.

The reason there are no support classes in World of Warcraft, is because it is designed in such a way that a support class can provide their support, without in any which way shape or form, causing them to perform less damage, or heal weaker, or tank less.

Not a good thing really. It wound up being "Okay let's make sure that we have at least one person of every class, so we can get all the buffs we need"

I doubt with the gameplay mechanics of World of Warcraft, that it would be possible to implement a support class.
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#272 Jun 07 2009 at 9:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
One thing I learned in wow was that 'Pulling' abilities that were available on the rouge and hunter classes were largely ignored by the populace.

I would like to keep the idea of a 'puller' in party play in FFXIV, as opposed to just having the tank run in and pull the aggro. I was nice to see a clean pull by a ranger run in with exactly the mob the group wanted and to take aggro.


As someone who played an RNG/NIN in FFXI, the concept of pulling was as irritating as it was effective. Pulling meant that your casters had time to rest and regen MP between fights and you could stake a loose claim to a specific area to help reduce the competition for mobs. In the case of those "static" camps, pulling was great and made a lot of sense. For "roaming camps" like what we saw in some parts of sky and ToAU zones, it often made more sense to have the tank pull.

Edit: added in the word "often" to the paragraph above because when I think about it, there were still cases where a puller other than the tank was useful for roaming camps if a mob was nearby so that it could be brought to the group and keep the fighting more constant.

The one thing that really got me about pulling was when you're out of party LoS, the area is picked clean of mobs, and you've got impatient ninnies spamming your chat log to pull. They can't see what you see, they don't believe you when you tell them that there's nothing to pull, and they just carry on like obnoxious little pricks, usually culminating with "you're a crappy puller". Few things were more satisfying than having a mouthy dork decide to save the day and come do what you were obviously incapable of doing only to announce to the party that there was, in fact, nothing to pull.

Quote:
And it made more sense as to why those classes had higher evasion and special trapping/binding techniques. The stealth abilities of a Thief in FFXI was far more appreciated in group play than the stealth abilities of a Rouge in WOW in group play.


I dunno about that. The way WoW is played today, yes. Rogue stealth in groups is not put to much use. There was a time, however, where rogue stealth + Sap was an extremely valuable addition to a party in a lot of content.

Quote:
In WOW group play takes on 3 roles: Tank, healer, and DPS.

I liked the additions to group play in FFXI that included a 'Puller' and 'Support' class.


I don't disagree, but I also see the other side of the coin. I never had a WoW party fall apart because we had a tank, healer, 2 dps, but were missing a particular buff. I had a lot of FFXI parties fail because we couldn't find an RDM or BRD. Sucks when you've got 5 people ready to go but they give up and disband because they just can't xp without haste and/or refresh.

Quote:
A bard might be able to heal a little, but the focus is on Buffing the party. Poor enhancement Shamans and Discipline priests in WOW get forced into Main heal roles, without an appreciation for support abilities.


I also played an enhanement shaman in WoW. You would not believe the whispers I got from melee dps screaming up and down that they needed a particular totem, despite the fact that the totem I was using served the direct benefit of not only melee dps but also the tank. My hat is off to the dedicated buff classes of any MMO. If I had to put up with that on an ongoing basis, I'd probably make my fortune as the guy who developed a means to reach through a monitor and strangle someone on the other side of the continent.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 10:47pm by AureliusSir
#273 Jun 07 2009 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius, I think you clearly pointed out the downfalls of the puller and support classes in FFXI.

I don't disagree that they weren't perfect, but I still like the idea of having more roles in a group than just the 'Big Three' with support and pulling being handled by all classes equally.

I think there was a little more variety in gameplay offered by having those 2 roles added.

You have to admit, being a puller felt like you were doing something different than being a pure DPS. The problem was that the areas were overcamped, and the players where whining because their exp wasn't fast enough.

And being a support class feels completely different from being a healer.

It also opens up the gameplay to more hybrid sitiuations, such as the corsair who was a puller and a supporter, or the brd who could pull and support, or the brd/whm who would pull and back up heal, or the redmage who would support and main heal, or the thfs and rangers who would pull and dps.

I just like having that variety in role positions for group play. I think WOW had that idea in mind when it started with shamans and rougues and hunters, but it just got lost in the BIG 3 of tank healer dps.


Quote:

I don't disagree, but I also see the other side of the coin. I never had a WoW party fall apart because we had a tank, healer, 2 dps, but were missing a particular buff. I had a lot of FFXI parties fail because we couldn't find an RDM or BRD. Sucks when you've got 5 people ready to go but they give up and disband because they just can't xp without haste and/or refresh.


I agree, it sucks when you disband because of no refresh or hast etc. I would like to see parties go on without it being necessary, but I still like the idea of a support class.

Maybe the support classes will be able to focus more on party play, while the solo content in FFIV can allow for everyone to continue on without NEEDING one to progress. The support classes would have a harder time soloing those support abilities.

But a party with a support class could get along a little easier than one without one. You would be able to exp in group anyway. Sort of like early FFXI leveling, you didn't need a bard, but if you could get one you were happy to have them. The support classes would be sure to get into a group, but it would be very difficult to solo those abilities up.

It would be like a raid without optimal buffs, you could do it, it would just be faster and easier if you had them. It would also allow a party system to coexist with the solo world. If you want the support and puller abilities a party would allow you to level them faster. If you just want to play you don't have to be a support, just level up your tank/healer/dps in solo without a party if you like.






Edited, Jun 8th 2009 1:38am by Shazaamemt

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 1:44am by Shazaamemt
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#274 Jun 07 2009 at 9:45 PM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
and rangers who would pull and dps.


Aaaaahahahahaha...post CoP nerf, we didn't pull and dps...we pulled and we missed...

(Sorry...couldn't help myself.)

;D
#275 Jun 07 2009 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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/sigh
How is this actually an argument about restoration soloing.

Average mob at level 80 has 10-15k hp
Moonkin crits for 5-8k star fires with my crap gear and casts twice as fast. wraths hit for 2-3k cast incredibly fast 1 second casts practically. 1.8k dps on level 80 mobs.

Restoration pops 1k star fires at half the speed. 3 second cast star fires. Has to stop to heal between nukes. Wraths hit for 300-600 non crit for 1k or so. Its actually important to cc so you can cast without being hit. Wrath spam is the ideal DPS topping off at a whopping 400 DPS. getting one add means your probably going to be spending more time healing than dpsing.

"I know a guy who knows a guy that once said he could solo as a healer super fast..." Garbage I don't see it. Its brd/nin soloing lesser colibri @#%^ing slow.

........ Anyway hopefully FFXIV will not force me to choose between healing or soloing like WoW did. Oh wait FFXI didn't make me do that either. Go figure.. I hope the job system stays exactly the same to be honest.

AureliusSir wrote:

Compare leveling solo as a WHM to leveling solo as a holy priest in WoW. I think there's your difference.


whm/bst
8-9k per hour soloing colibri was so much fun. levels 67-72 at leech camp. whm/bst was a powerful soloing combination at all levels really. God when they took away all xp penalty with charmed bst pets it just made the combo so **** strong.

Actually any class that can heal subbing bst turned the class into a @#%^ing monster.. Rdm/bst is borderline broken in some locations. The combination was so god **** powerful it was like another game...

edit: rdm/bst at level up felt a lot like a super complicated solo MMO where I had total if not absolute control over my environment around me. it was very visceral because no other MMO had that same feeling when solo and it harshly contrasted the style of play in FFXI like it simply didn't belong.

If I died it was my fault period even against HNMs.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 3:35am by thorazinekizzez
#276 Jun 07 2009 at 11:45 PM Rating: Default
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JenovasPuppet wrote:
Instances
Instanced battles are something WoW got right, however having instance entrances in the middle of a city completely takes me out of the game. Don't make it too difficult to get to an instance, but at least put it in a place that makes sense.


I agree, the instances are good and should be implemented, as in FFXI, you have a lot of instanced end game content.

Quote:
Notorious Monsters
The open world NMs in WoW take barely any time to repop. While this makes the items they drop less rare, it also means that anyone who wants to can try to kill them. This is a far better system than FFXI. Put the really rare stuff in instances. You shouldn't have to compete with the game and other players.


SE wants a variety of ways you can get your items, either by instances, or with NM. 2 different ways to get it. If you are not comfortable to get your item threw the outdoor NM, you can try your luck in instance based content. SE will cater both side of the coin. They said they are going to cater both hardcore and casual in many ways, and that would ultimately bee taken both from FFXI and WoW OR, something completely different that neither exists in WoW nor FFXI.

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Crafting
Both FFXI and WoW have their pros and cons when it comes to crafting. In FFXI a high level crafter is a highly sought after individual and it can be a very lucrative career. The downside is that crafting in FFXI is extremely difficult to get into. Most players don't have nearly enough time or money to sink into becoming a decent crafter and, with little exceptions, there are no rewards for crafting until you reach 100.

WoW crafting, on the other hand, is much more accessible. Anyone can pick up a craft and immediately start leveling it. If you level your craft while you level your character, you'll almost always be able to make useful items for yourself. The flipside is, once you're done making stuff for yourself and your friends, there's not much you can do with your craft. Because it's so accessible, just about anyone can be a high level crafter and there's no demand for the items you can make.

Personally, I prefer WoW's system, but it'd be nice to see a combination of the two. A crafting system that is easy to get into and get results from, but that is difficult to master.


Crafting is also linked to itemization and other various factors as well, so it’s not a simple task to handle.

Quote:
Farming
In WoW, if I need leather I'll go kill some monsters and skin them. The more time I spend doing this, the more leather I'll get. If I can't farm the materials I can go to an NPC and buy them.
In FFXI, if I need leather I'll go kill some monsters and hope they drop leather. I could spend hours doing this and have nothing to show for it. If I can't farm the materials I can go to an NPC and wait for an hour until the shop opens, and then hope that I'm fast enough to buy what I need before someone else does. Since the NPC sells only a very very small amount of items it is unlikely I'll get what I need.

The only factor in farming should be how much time you put into it.


It depends what that leather is used for, a very good item that’s really valuable or to skill up crafting that’s extremely useful once you max it.
In WoW crafting generally doesn’t make you benefit from it when you hit max level (in terms of making money) while in FFXI a master craftsman can make a good fortune. One could argue why not make it easy to skill up in FFXI, if everyone was a master craftsman, no one would make any money from crafting and in the end it would be as meaningless as in WoW.

Quote:
Death
Death should always be a bad thing, but in FFXI it was game breaking. The EXP penalty made every task in the game a chore.
The Linkshell wants to farm Sky?
I don't know... I'm already close to deleveling. I'll go next time.
A friend wants help on a mission?
Jeez, I already did that one, and it took me days to get back all the EXP I lost.
A noob needs help getting his level cap items?
Ha! Are you kidding me? I'm not gonna risk my neck for someone I don't even know!

When you die in WoW your gear takes a damage hit and you need to spend money to repair it. Nobody wants to have to repair their gear, but that possibility is not going to keep them from doing any of the above examples.


I could say the same thing about WoW as well; " Oh ****, guys my gear is all red and I dont have any gold to repair ".

Quote:
Interface
Square-Enix needs to learn the difference between changing the way your screen looks and cheating. Every other MMO understands that interface mods are a huge part of the community and keep players happy. Trying to outlaw them only loses you customers.


If the feature of UI mod is implemented in the game, sure its fine with me. But having external mods is hassle or rightdown a problem since SE target the console market as well, not just the PC.


Edited, Jun 8th 2009 3:50am by Maldavian
#277 Jun 08 2009 at 3:11 AM Rating: Default
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A lot of people in here basically just wanting a game like WoW. Here's an idea, go play WoW. I've played WoW since closed beta, and although it is a shadow of its older vanilla self, it is a great game for what it does. That said...

The BEST part about FFXI is just how little it has in common with WoW. In my opinion, FFXIV needs to JUST as dissimilar, if not moreso.
#278 Jun 08 2009 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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StarScar wrote:
A lot of people in here basically just wanting a game like WoW.


Absolutely nobody said that. Stop being a moron.

Quote:
The BEST part about FFXI is just how little it has in common with WoW.


Damning with faint praise...

Edit for formatting

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 6:19am by MrSenethSomed
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#279 Jun 08 2009 at 3:33 AM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Because there was an FF title where you could get a black chocobo that would allow you to fly around the world map.
More than one, actually.
Only one that flew. None flew in 1 through 3, 5 or 6. In 7 they kind of just walked over things (This one I'll give you, as 7 was just one giant flaw after another, so we can say they were meant to limited flight). None flew in 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12. Or in the Tactics line. Can't remember the ones on the original Gameboy, but I doubt they flew. Nonexistent (except as a weathervane) in Mystic Quest ...

Really, traditionally Chocobos are giant flightless birds. It honestly doesn't matter, though. There are only two real traditions in Final Fantasy games, in that Chocobos do exist, and Cid. Time will tell whether the new incarnation will fly or not.
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#280 Jun 08 2009 at 3:47 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, in the first FFT, there were flying chocobos. The black ones. Of course, there were also flying people in that game. In both cases, it was only good for scaling cliffs.

But ****, it's a video game. They could have flying green kangaroos if they wanted. That sounds pretty coo- eh, no it doesn't.

EDIT: Rated down for this?! Clearly I underestimated the popularity of flying green kangaroos.

I take it back. They are ******* awesome.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 7:35am by MrSenethSomed
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#281 Jun 08 2009 at 3:52 AM Rating: Good
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MrSenethSomed wrote:
Actually, in the first FFT, there were flying chocobos.
Okay, three out of thirty. I still stand by the "traditionally a flightless bird" line. Smiley: motz
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#282 Jun 08 2009 at 3:55 AM Rating: Good
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FF5 has a black flying chocobo like in FF4.
FF9 had an upgrade from the hot and cold game to get a flying chocobo.


Not that I care for chocobos. I want a moogle suit for my "Galka" in FFXIV.


Edited, Jun 8th 2009 5:09pm by RedGalka
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#283 Jun 08 2009 at 4:29 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Death
Death should always be a bad thing, but in FFXI it was game breaking. The EXP penalty made every task in the game a chore.
The Linkshell wants to farm Sky?
I don't know... I'm already close to deleveling. I'll go next time.
A friend wants help on a mission?
Jeez, I already did that one, and it took me days to get back all the EXP I lost.
A noob needs help getting his level cap items?
Ha! Are you kidding me? I'm not gonna risk my neck for someone I don't even know!


Game breaking, eh, are you serious? It might be game breaking for lacking players, players who don't get a big buffer after they hit 75. I hate people who constantly complain about **********, I deleveled to 74 again" and I can't find any other answer to this than "idiot?".

Any decent player will get a buffer (not a one death buffer, preferably a 20k+ one) after they hit 75 (or any other lvl for that matter). Any decent player will carry sneak/invis on them everywhere they go, "whm, can I have sneak" -players should immediately be kicked out of the group no matter what the situation is, because not carrying sneak/invis in FFXI is just ignorant and plain foolish. Maybe situations where the players has mistakenly forgotten the stuff in a rush can be forgiven, but hearing someone say "the meds are too expensive" makes baby jesus and virgin maria flood tears from their eyes.

And btw. When I say "decent" players, I really mean decent. You can do better than that, but if you fall under the "decent" category, you're just bad. Learn.

In my opinion the exp loss from death is only a good thing, because it should lead into less noobs running without the needed avoidance medicine around aggroing mobs, because they know they will lose something if they play ignorant and don't bring meds. Same goes for endgame events. Do not moan for R3 if you have a sh*tty buffer (or arent careful about what you do during fights (getting hate etc.)), OR do not carry a RR item yourself.

I have a RR2 pin with me all the times, in my opinion everyone should bring one at least for end-game events if they do not wish to "waste" one inventory spot for it all times. But anyways, not having a reraise goes to the same "ignorance" -category as not having sneak and invis.

So in conclusion, if the exp loss during death is so big thing for you, how about you start lacking and do yourself a favor and don't let yourself delevel when dying. It's actually pretty easy, but meh, people are just lazy.

PS. When I say "you" I didn't point it only to the guy who whined about the death part, I mean everyone who recognize themselves being these players deleveling constantly because of their own, foolish mistakes.

Carry on.



Edited, Jun 8th 2009 8:51am by DeMaWa
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#284 Jun 08 2009 at 4:44 AM Rating: Default
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Also, as there seems to be a few WoW players here who seem to want a lot of WoW like stuff in FFXIV, I want to ask you a question, why can't you just keep playing WoW? I'm repeating myself here, but I'll say it again. WoW will for sure be updated and expanded for several years still and they won't change the gameplay. WoW still has all that stuff you're clearly looking for and hoping FFXIV have, so what's the problem, you already have your game.

And I'm not ******** here (for the first time probably), but just finding it weird that there are people suggesting not only minor upgrades to FFXIV that WoW has, but clearly wanting FFXIV to have many things similar with WoW, what's the point? WoW is already there, let them make a new game with new kind of stuff. I'm already accepting the fact that it will not be another FFXI, but something all new. And I'm looking into that, in stead of trying to suggest them to add half of the stuff in WoW, maybe you should just wait and see what it will be like.

Also I'm pretty sure that since they've been working on FFXIV for years already, they already have some plans how the gameplay and all that stuff will be.
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#285 Jun 08 2009 at 5:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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DeMaWa wrote:
Also, as there seems to be a few WoW players here who seem to want a lot of WoW like stuff in FFXIV, I want to ask you a question, why can't you just keep playing WoW? I'm repeating myself here, but I'll say it again. WoW will for sure be updated and expanded for several years still and they won't change the gameplay. WoW still has all that stuff you're clearly looking for and hoping FFXIV have, so what's the problem, you already have your game.

And I'm not ******** here (for the first time probably), but just finding it weird that there are people suggesting not only minor upgrades to FFXIV that WoW has, but clearly wanting FFXIV to have many things similar with WoW, what's the point? WoW is already there, let them make a new game with new kind of stuff. I'm already accepting the fact that it will not be another FFXI, but something all new. And I'm looking into that, in stead of trying to suggest them to add half of the stuff in WoW, maybe you should just wait and see what it will be like..

I like FFXI better. I've played both. There are some things Square could learn from Blizzard.

One very obvious example, would be to copy almost word-for-word Blizzard's technique at handing RMT. Because Blizzard has virtually abolished it. Easily cut it down to less than 1/10th of what it was before.

Why re-invent the wheel? If someone has a good system for handling RMT, STEAL IT!!!!!
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#286 Jun 08 2009 at 5:12 AM Rating: Default
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the RMT in FFXI has been cut down to 1/10th as well, so why copy from Blizzard when they got a team handling RMT already =/
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#287 Jun 08 2009 at 5:15 AM Rating: Decent
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DeMaWa wrote:
Also, as there seems to be a few WoW players here who seem to want a lot of WoW like stuff in FFXIV, I want to ask you a question, why can't you just keep playing WoW?


This may be a difficult thought for you to process, but did you ever consider the idea that Final Fantasy fans might actually want to play an online Final Fantasy game that they would enjoy? It's a novel concept, isn't it?

There's nothing wrong with the grouping aspect of any MMO, and that should be evident when you take into consideration the sheer volume of people who raid and do arena/BGs in WoW and have a good time of it, myself included. What drives people insane in group-based activities are the mouthbreathers that they often get paired with, especially when they have no other social circles to draw people from. These are the folks who come as WARs with underleveled WHM subjobs and expect to main heal. They're the folks who think that the heroic instance they're in can be completed by ping-ponging mobs between two tanks. I mean, we're talking about people who are such self-serving ******** that they'd bring your entire alliance or raid down if it suited their own chosen playstyle more than it suited the group's. Nobody wants to play with these guys, and we should never be forced to do so, nor should we be forced to sit around with our thumbs up our asses while we wait for good players to make an appearance. WoW understands this very important and very game-breaking social issue; FFXI did not recognize it fast enough, if they ever did.

I want to play an online Final Fantasy game, but I don't want to play with windowlickers if I can avoid it. Solo options help me avoid it.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#288 Jun 08 2009 at 5:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
I don't want to play with windowlickers.

But... but...

*teary eyed* Windows taste so good... like, strawberries...

You should try it sometime, maybe you would like it? :D
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#289 Jun 08 2009 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This may be a difficult thought for you to process, but did you ever consider the idea that Final Fantasy fans might actually want to play an online Final Fantasy game that they would enjoy? It's a novel concept, isn't it?

There's nothing wrong with the grouping aspect of any MMO, and that should be evident when you take into consideration the sheer volume of people who raid and do arena/BGs in WoW and have a good time of it, myself included. What drives people insane in group-based activities are the mouthbreathers that they often get paired with, especially when they have no other social circles to draw people from. These are the folks who come as WARs with underleveled WHM subjobs and expect to main heal. They're the folks who think that the heroic instance they're in can be completed by ping-ponging mobs between two tanks. I mean, we're talking about people who are such self-serving @#%^s that they'd bring your entire alliance or raid down if it suited their own chosen playstyle more than it suited the group's. Nobody wants to play with these guys, and we should never be forced to do so, nor should we be forced to sit around with our thumbs up our asses while we wait for good players to make an appearance. WoW understands this very important and very game-breaking social issue; FFXI did not recognize it fast enough, if they ever did.

I want to play an online Final Fantasy game, but I don't want to play with windowlickers if I can avoid it. Solo options help me avoid it.


No, it's not hard to process for me. If you haven't yet discovered I myself am a WoW player as well, or was, to be a bit more exact. What comes to playtime I've probably played both, FFXI and WoW about equally, it being about 3 to 4 years for both (ye I'm a nerd, cant help it).

I love both games, even though I did quit WoW few months ago when I started playing FFXI again, because I don't have the time to play 2 MMO games efficiently nor do I want to play two montly fees when one of the games would clearly be left behind in a way or another. But anyways, I have liked and loved and still love the content of both of the games, FFXI currently being my favourite, that being because WoTLK kinda drove me away from WoW.

The difference is that, these two games are very, VERY different from each other, we all know that. I personally enjoyed WoW for it's wonderful PvP, which FFXI clearly lacks, where in the other hand, I do not enjoy WoW instances and PvE content as much as I do enjoy the PvE content in FFXI. Yeah you heard me, for me FFXI PvE > WoW PvE, and to be honest, if it didn't, why would I even play FFXI? I'm not playing games for names, I can honestly say that even I'm a big fan of Final Fantasy games, I would not play a sh*tty game just because it is named Final Fantasy. This was the case for me on FFX-2 for example, I didn't like it, so I skipped it. So anyways, if I enjoyed WoW PvE and the general game and it's environment more than I do enjoy FFXIs, what reasons would I have to play the later one? None?

But here we come to the point that everyone should know, FFXI and WoW are two different games. FFXIV is the new game behind the FF name. Of course everyone is hoping that FFXIV is a new, evolved Final Fantasy MMO that will be better than FFXI in everything they didn't do that well at. Weight on the word "NEW" here, though. A new game, not a copy of FFXI, not a copy of WoW or not a copy of any other game for that matter.

What it comes to soloing, I think FFXI was going to the right direction already. The adding of Fields of Valor, Campaign for later levels and the exp bonus for killing ep-dc mobs with signet on were definitely some things that there should've been from the beginning. I've seen quite fast leveling with all this stuff by solo players. I've seen a guy from my LS solo pup from zero to the upper 50s in no more than few days, with the help of anniversary ring. Which in my opinion, isn't really that slow. Does it have to be any faster than that? That's up for you to think.

But since FFXIV will be COMPLETELY different game and there are even rumors (not just rumors, SE said it) that there won't be experience points at all, no exping. It will be something else and I'm sure there will be something for everyone, as SE said, they're hoping that everyone will fall in love with their new game, so I'm sure they aren't making a copy of any other game, but in stead, try to do a new game that's even better than the current ones on the market.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 9:37am by DeMaWa
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#290 Jun 08 2009 at 6:34 AM Rating: Default
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Honestly Id prefer if the game was almost exactly like FFXI baring a few tweaks.

Absence of standard NMs with overly important drops entirely. Argus,,, AAARRGGUUUUSSSS...

Questing to be more meaningful and take one major step ahead of old school wow style questing. In every zone pops up a list of 5 or so possible quests every 30 minutes that fit the current situation in the environment that everyone in the zone sees at the same time. "Defend X area" "Collect loose chocobos and bring them to the stables!" ect ect...

For the games current time line to be during a large war with beastmen like in wings of the goddess.

Everything else could be identical to FFXI beyond a more modern hud and the game would be amazing.
#291 Jun 08 2009 at 6:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I hope there'll be lot more things to do than usually in MMO's endgame.

PvP, raiding/instances, crafting....... I'd prefer salvage/znm/assault/nyzul/enm/kings/einherjar/meriting/missions instead, only this time with better structured (tiering?) so it doesn't feel so fragmented.

So take the tiering from WoW, as well as the scripted bossfights, and then reinvent the more balanced fleshed out FFXI endgame wheel~
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#292 Jun 08 2009 at 6:44 AM Rating: Good
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I've been playing WoW for the last year now after having played FFXI off-and-on for about 4 years prior. Alot of this has already been mentioned by here are some of my thoughts on the subject...

1) Get rid of some of the tedious grinding and at least make soloing an option. I don't want groups to become totally unnecessary and unappealing b/c i enjoyed XP groups, but being able to solo at maybe 50% effectiveness would at least give you something to do while LFG or if you are only online for like an hour.

However, spending weeks trying to skill-up Greatsword on my Drk when i hit lvl 65 was retarded. Having to find skill-up groups to auto-attack for hours b/c i cant even survive against mobs close to my lvl made it even more retarded. Elements like that were completely unnecessary and need to be fixed.

2)Need instances. They aren't perfect, but they beat the **** out of fighting other groups for respawns. All that creates is frustration and tension b/t groups.

3) Tweak the combat system. It had alot of potential and alot of great elements (skillchains were great, alot of the abilities were very good), but, as others have said, was a bit too slow at times. This certainly doesn't mean that you need the lightning-fast-paced combat of WoW, but something in the middle would be nice.

I expect to get arguments over this one, but i always thought that threat generation for tanks was too difficult as well. Yeah, some really skilled tanks (esp ones with full merits) were very good at holding aggro, but a whole lot more were not. And yes, walking the threat line is part of DDing, but it sucks when all of your DD have to wait until the mob is almost dead to fire off WSs b/c its an automatic threat-pull if they don't. It was also frustrating to get that double attack, double crit proc only to pull aggro with it, have no threat dump, and die b/c you *won* the RNG lottery.

Only having one class that could help transfer threat to the tank was pretty lame as well.

I would like to see more options with the whole threat generation/dumping system. Not as easy as WoWs but something a little more forgiving than FFXI.

4)Keep the 1-toon system where you can just switch jobs! Nothing is more annoying than having to make a dozen different alts over multiple accounts in WoW just to play each class. Keeping up with the names of everybodies alts is just a nightmare. Also, it really sucks having to go back and get gear on your alts that you already have on your main but can't use b/c its bound to one toon.

5) Do not make ALL of the best gear only accessible from the current highest raid instance or from crafting recipes that only drop from said raid instance. This is another thing that FFXI has over WoW with their BCNMs, KSNMs, Assaults etc. However, it is cheesy having such an awesome item like the Leeping Boots drop from a lvl 10 lizard in a newby starting zone.

6) More class flexibility. WoW has gotten this one about as right as anybody has. One class being able to both tank or DPS just by respeccing is really nice. It also gives every class at least one spec that is viable to level with. And the skill-tree also enables you to spec for soloing, spec for max-DPS, spec for raid-optimizing buffs etc. I was never a hater of the SJ system like some, so if SE can figure out how to attain some of the class flexibility of WoW via the SJ system then more power to them.

7) Make travelling easier, and give some way to summon party members. I think it's a bit TOO easy to get around in WoW and it makes the game feel too small, but FFXI had the exact opposite problem. It really sucked when you wanted to invite somebody to your party, but couldn't b/c it would take them an hour to get to you. Need to find a happy median here where the world still feels large like a world, but it's not so extremely time-consuming to get around.

8) Keep the world dangerous! It's just way too easy in WoW. You can basically point yourself in the right direction, hit autorun, and go AFK without dying.

I loved the tension of running through a zone in FFXI knowing that i was in danger all of the time. My first trip to Jeuno through Jugner Forest and Batllia Downs is still one of my most memorable FFXI moments. However, it would be nice to be able to fend off at least one even-level mob, or be able to occasionally escape something tougher when you are detected. That's back to adding at least some kind of soloability though.

9) Completely different crafting system. WoWs is way too easy while FFXI's was way too gimmicky and frustrating, and perhaps a bit too time-consuming and tedious as well. Having to wait until a new moon on firesday while facing SW and then praying you got lucky on skillups was a bit too ridiculous when it took so long to gather together all of the items for the crafting session.

10) More inventory space! Even with all of the gobbie bags, i still found myself getting full all of the time while trying to do things like craft. I don't care how they go about implementing it, just give us more bag space.




#293 Jun 08 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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There are quite a few things that WoW could teach FFXIV and future game developers.

One that I don't think has been mentioned yet is the Calendar system in WoW. You can log on, open your guild calendar and see what raids are being held at what times as well as sign up for said raid or event so ppl have an idea of what people and jobs will be available. The calendar will also list any server wide events.

This is one of the more annoying time sinks in FFXI since you not only have to wait for the ppl to show up, but sometimes you also have to wait for some ppl to change jobs. Since WoW doesn't have a job change system, you knew that "I" would be coming with my Druid because that's what I signed up with. That allowed the leaders plenty of time to request any job or character changes before the actual event started. Not to mention that sometimes, getting people to log into a separate shell website to view posted events can often prove to be a chore.

Since this thread exploded over the weekend, I'm pretty sure that Guild management was mentioned. Since most ppl here have played WoW, you know the value it can bring.

As far as chat is concerned, it sucks you can only have one guild at a time in WoW, but Blizzard also made it so you can have different channels. SE could adapt this and allow you to have several different channels to select your active linkshell from. Also, having an Officer channel meant not having to try to discuss things in /tell for everyone who didn't have vent or try to get everyone into a party or an 'officer' shell for open discussion.

There are flaws in every game and while each one should strive to be unique, there are systems that work and work really well. No need to try and recreate the wheel unless you think your design will be significantly better.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 9:46am by sixgauge
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#294 Jun 08 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow Had true pacing for new players. So much so that most other MMOs fail in comparison except possibly Age of Conan.. Though in this case Age of Conans fantastic start areas and pacing were literally DRAGGED HORRIBLY through the mud disgracing the games very feeling of a true world. They made the first quest everyone gets once leaving the starting area a random romp through a series of disconnected portals around the entire world with absolutely no care to the players experience even in the slightest while handing out quests ALL OVER THE PLACE and not even giving a slight clue if you are going in the right direction.. It was disgusting I had like no freaking clue what was going on...

WoW to date has gotten the way it treats new players down to a perfect balance. They start you in very calming tranquil locations with very little danger right in front of the first quest npc to literally walk 10 feet over and kill some mobs.

You feel safe and have plenty of time to breathe and learn the game while also are given goals that are very easy to understand and complete. They ease you into everything and continue to build up momentum with quest complexity slowly.

This was something that FFXI did very poorly too. They start you in some huge sprawling city and say "GOOD LUCK" lol....

Warhammer starts you off in the middle of a giant war and you have like 10 abilities and que up for battle ground style instance is like the first tutorial LOL.. Oh and they give you some quests too. "GOOD LUCK!" haha
#295 Jun 08 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
Warhammer starts you off in the middle of a giant war and you have like 10 abilities and que up for battle ground style instance is like the first tutorial LOL.. Oh and they give you some quests too. "GOOD LUCK!" haha

Warhammer starts you off with 2 abilities at level one, you gain another one at level 2, and I believe you gain a new ability almost every even level.
#296 Jun 08 2009 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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DeMaWa wrote:

Also, as there seems to be a few WoW players here who seem to want a lot of WoW like stuff in FFXIV, I want to ask you a question, why can't you just keep playing WoW? I'm repeating myself here, but I'll say it again. WoW will for sure be updated and expanded for several years still and they won't change the gameplay. WoW still has all that stuff you're clearly looking for and hoping FFXIV have, so what's the problem, you already have your game.

And I'm not ******** here (for the first time probably), but just finding it weird that there are people suggesting not only minor upgrades to FFXIV that WoW has, but clearly wanting FFXIV to have many things similar with WoW, what's the point? WoW is already there, let them make a new game with new kind of stuff. I'm already accepting the fact that it will not be another FFXI, but something all new. And I'm looking into that, in stead of trying to suggest them to add half of the stuff in WoW, maybe you should just wait and see what it will be like.

Also I'm pretty sure that since they've been working on FFXIV for years already, they already have some plans how the gameplay and all that stuff will be


Well this thread is still going, and there are still posts like this being made. The WoW players here are actually also FFXI players, and I'd really like people like you to stop trying to put me in this little box of being a single game player. I'm not only on the WoW side of camp. I play both, I'm bi-game, and I'd like XIV to be something greater than both WoW and FFXI. It seems that those of you who are only on the XI side of camp cannot fathom that there are people who actually enjoy BOTH games and BOTH developers.

You know what the biggest thing that folks like us are asking for is? Options.

Options is something that XI is sorely lacking and we don't want to see SE make a mistake by limiting Options.

1. Options for UI customization (regardless of platform, it would be nice to pick and choose what I want to see. HP bars for a healer, TP bars for a DD, etc. instead of one size fits all)

2. Options for leveling my character, instead of:
- Kill an EP mob in a zone that I have no business even being in for 50 xp a piece with ring if I'm lucky because I can't actually kill EM+ without getting my *** handed to me (FoV, Level Sync, and Campaign-like things were huge wins, but too little too late for XI and come with their own drawbacks i.e. skillup issues, so you still *have* to party or you are so behind you might as well not even exist)
- Wait anywhere from 10 minutes to 10 days for a party depending on my class to group with people I may or may not get along with, all to chain the same freaking mobs over and over for 2-however many hours

3. Options to get my gear pieces instead of the current:
- Camp x mob by yourself anywhere from 2 hours to 20 days depending on how lucky you are (to get the claim AND the drop), whether you can kill it by yourself, and/or your friends' availability
- Pay Kindred Seals or Beastmen Seals to do an "instanced" NM that you need to have x setup for and will only get a small *chance* that you will get what you want out of it, if you manage to win (really the difficulty level on some of them is beyond belief)
- Join an end game group and pray that it stays together long enough for you to get something worthwhile out of it. Lots of stories of people who join a group and invest a lot of time into it only to have the leaders get everything they wanted and then break the shell without a word. Not everyone, but enough for it to be discouraging to newer players who don't have the rep/jobs/**** sucking that gets them into the super elite shells.

Basically there are lots of areas where this new game can get it right, coming out of the gate. It doesn't have to copy WoW to get it right, and just because there are some suggestions regarding what WoW *did* do right floating around, it doesn't mean you have to get so militant and close your mind to possibilities because you see it as a threat. That's what a heck of a lot of you are doing though, it seems. You read the first few lines of a post, see the letters W o W in it, and automatically assume it's a WoW fangirl slinging mud at the game that you love, when that couldn't be further from the truth.

FFXI has a lot of great elements, but a little more choice will go a long way in building a larger fanbase.

Otherwise, we'll see the same thing happen that basically happened with XI. Only the "hard core" sticking with XIV and the rest playing other games, and I don't think that's SE goal no matter how much you want to believe you are the only ones who are important.


Shazaamemt wrote:

One thing I learned in wow was that 'Pulling' abilities that were available on the rouge and hunter classes were largely ignored by the populac


And this is one thing that I would not miss. I swear no other game better ever implement a Rogue class because this has to be the most annoying thing on the ******* planet :p
#297 Jun 08 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Well said Torrence. Im definetly on the wow side of this discussion and I'm not even a current wow player I quit 2 years ago because there's alot of things I don't like about that game. But it doesn't change the fact that WoW also did a lot of things RIGHT. Even tho personally I don't like WoW I'm not so filled with hate that I'm blind to the points of WoW that are good.
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#298 Jun 08 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I could choose any one -Game Mechanic-(i.e. not extra communication, official forum etc.) to learn from WoW, I'd say Badges.


Going 0/130 on a Valkurm Emperor-type thing should not be possible.

Should not be possible

Valuable things can be hard to get, they should be. That's what rarity is. But there needs to be an acknowledged cutoff point where effort supersedes luck, where, after X amount of effort is put forth, Your hard work cannot be spat on by Random Number Generation.

The Badge system in WoW provided you with a Badge, a special currency, for each boss you killed in an instance - dungeons, located on a remote server.

These "Tokens" could be used, in large quantities, to purchase much of the great gear in the game, or gear comparable to it. Note that the best gear still could not be obtained by it, but you could get darn good competition.

It meant that if you ran groups for a month, got sickeningly unlucky, or were just getting into an endgame shell and had no point, and were far behind before you could start lotting big stuff, You were still progressing, growing, as you gained more gear by default just for helping to kill the big stuff.


Effort...should be measured, not arbitrary, I guess is my suggestion. WoW has hit that nail right on the head, IMHO.
#299 Jun 08 2009 at 12:05 PM Rating: Default
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And this is one thing that I would not miss. I swear no other game better ever implement a Rogue class because this has to be the most annoying thing on the @#%^ing planet :p


uuhhh

Soo @#%^ing true >< /em bangs head on desk
This needs to be tattooed on every WoW employee who thinks Rogue was a well designed class... For the love of god... AND ALL THAT IS TRUE IN THIS WORLD...

MessengerofPeaceTolone wrote:
If I could choose any one -Game Mechanic-(i.e. not extra communication, official forum etc.) to learn from WoW, I'd say Badges.


Going 0/130 on a Valkurm Emperor-type thing should not be possible.

Should not be possible

Valuable things can be hard to get, they should be. That's what rarity is. But there needs to be an acknowledged cutoff point where effort supersedes luck, where, after X amount of effort is put forth, Your hard work cannot be spat on by Random Number Generation.

The Badge system in WoW provided you with a Badge, a special currency, for each boss you killed in an instance - dungeons, located on a remote server.

These "Tokens" could be used, in large quantities, to purchase much of the great gear in the game, or gear comparable to it. Note that the best gear still could not be obtained by it, but you could get darn good competition.

It meant that if you ran groups for a month, got sickeningly unlucky, or were just getting into an endgame shell and had no point, and were far behind before you could start lotting big stuff, You were still progressing, growing, as you gained more gear by default just for helping to kill the big stuff.


Effort...should be measured, not arbitrary, I guess is my suggestion. WoW has hit that nail right on the head, IMHO.


I loved emblems in WoW and what they stand for. Well designed steady and reasonable goals. Obtainable but in due time with the least worry or frustration. Sound concept and was pulled off quite well in WoW.

Also too I liked how nearly every craft had craftable purple items that it can make. The items were all designed to be perfect for entry level stuff for end game. Desired by all who wanted to get a footing before they got involved into end game.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 4:11pm by thorazinekizzez
#300 Jun 08 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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........ Anyway hopefully FFXIV will not force me to choose between healing or soloing like WoW did. Oh wait FFXI didn't make me do that either. Go figure.. I hope the job system stays exactly the same to be honest.


That is one of the things I always found annoying about the player base in wow.

"I can't heal that lvl 40 instance, I'm a shadow priest" - ********* A dps spec hybrid can heal any non-raid / non-heroic instance just fine. I leveled a shadow priest / enhancement shaman and a ret-pali and I always main healed if needed and in those instances did just fine. All you need is to build a heal set of gear, which is easy enough through quest rewards.

Quote:
How is this actually an argument about restoration soloing.

Average mob at level 80 has 10-15k hp
Moonkin crits for 5-8k star fires with my crap gear and casts twice as fast. wraths hit for 2-3k cast incredibly fast 1 second casts practically. 1.8k dps on level 80 mobs.

Restoration pops 1k star fires at half the speed. 3 second cast star fires. Has to stop to heal between nukes. Wraths hit for 300-600 non crit for 1k or so. Its actually important to cc so you can cast without being hit. Wrath spam is the ideal DPS topping off at a whopping 400 DPS. getting one add means your probably going to be spending more time healing than dpsing.


Ok - lets assume 12.5k Hp for a mob.

Moonfire base dmg - rounded to 450 intial and 800 dot.
Wrath 600 base dmg - 3 second cast
Starfire - 1.1k base dmg - 3.5 second cast


So the error in your arguement so far is that YOU ARE USING BASE DAMAGE AND IGNORING ALL SPELL POWER

A resto druid will have about 2k spell power. Add that to your calculations and you get(taken from http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t37800-wrathcalcs_moonkin_dps_spreadsheet/ ... simply remove the talent choices to get a "resto" feel) factoring all co-effecients and such...

Total base dps - no talents : 2135.57 DPS ... wow, that mob will take all of 8 seconds to kill.

Now lets say you do not crit at all:

Starfire - 4k avg non-crit
Wrath - 2k avg non-crit
Moonfire - total damage 4k

So yeah, 12 seconds tops it is dead - a full moonfire dot and a couple casts of either spell.

Yeah dude... I mean, seriously. That is low dps no doubt, but like i said you just exagerate like crazy.

Quote:
I know a guy who knows a guy that once said he could solo as a healer super fast..." Garbage I don't see it. Its brd/nin soloing lesser colibri @#%^ing slow


You didn't see how spell power and spell coeffecients work. I don't doubt you wouldn't see this either.
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#301thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 09 2009 at 8:06 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I am the one with the 80 restoration druid
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