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#302 Jun 09 2009 at 8:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
I am the one with the 80 restoration druid

STFU

I am reiterating What I am seeing personally not some exaggeration, not some made up garbage calculation assuming EVERYONE has 2k spell power.

We just got through an argument where a level 40 mnk not being able to get a brown belt is bad game design. And what druids have no need to go restoration below level 80 because "Thats a luxery!?"

GTFO blind *** Blizzard Fanboi

If I want to be a healer I SHOULD HAVE THAT @#%^ING RIGHT BELOW LEVEL 80!!

Good for you.

My partner leveled to level 80 as a Holy Priest
I have leveled to level 70 as a Protection Warrior (pre-3.0 tank DPS buff)
I have leveled to level 70 as a Restoration Shaman
I have leveled to level 70 as a Holy Priest
One of my best friends leveled as a Restoration Druid

Thousands of other players have leveled as a tank or healer spec

Congratulations, you are not a unique and special flower. Everyone knows you are lying and exaggurating. Under no which manner shape or form, would it take you "minutes" to kill an equal level mob.

You have two options.
A. Admit you were exaggurating, and apologize and save face.
B. Continue this road, and have the rest of us point and laugh at you.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 12:14pm by Karelyn

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 12:15pm by Karelyn
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#303 Jun 09 2009 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
Quote:
Yeah dude... I mean, seriously. That is low dps no doubt, but like i said you just exagerate like crazy.


I am the one with the 80 restoration druid


Chill out. I also have an 80 resto druid and I'm telling you that it's not as bad as you make it sound.
#304thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 09 2009 at 8:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) admit what?
#305 Jun 09 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
admit what?
That what I am witnessing with my own 2 @#%^ing eyes is not true? That I should lie so you can feel special?

*continues to point and laugh at you*

Tis just a child, caught in their lie, nothing more. Yet it pleases me watching him suffer so.
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#306thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 09 2009 at 8:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Do you want a Utube video or something lol??
#307 Jun 09 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
The common thing most people say with restoration spec is to not bother until level 80 for good reason. Are you going to try and convince me that's a lie as well? The general consensus among the entire WoW community? :)

They say the same thing about protection warrior, protection paladin, dire bear form, restoration shamans, holy priests, and holy paladins. It doesn't make it impossible. Just suboptimal.

Suboptimal as in taking roughly 150-200% more time. Which, in WoW, means taking about 7-10 seconds to kill monsters instead of 3-5 seconds. Not "minutes"

You are talking about a community that generally considered (pre-3.0) it laughable for a Warrior to level as Arms spec instead of Fury spec. Both damage dealing specs. Out of the idea, that Arms Warriors would take approximately 3-5 hours more to reach level 70 than a Fury Warrior. When it takes an average player around 250 hours to reach level 70 (pre-EXP nerf)

The community is hilariously obsessed with optimizing time... then they reach level cap, and stand around towns doing nothing.

In other words. You are still a liar, and a bad liar at that, and it's funny watching you attempt to defend yourself with irrelivent facts.
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#308 Jun 09 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
uuhhh

Soo @#%^ing true >< /em bangs head on desk
This needs to be tattooed on every WoW employee who thinks Rogue was a well designed class... For the love of god... AND ALL THAT IS TRUE IN THIS WORLD...


I was actually referring to the near-consistent misspelling of the word *rogue*, not the design of the class. I haven't leveled Rogue to any notable level so I'll just take your word for it that pulling is broken.


As a final note before I say goodbye to this thread forever, I just want to point out that among all of the folks who are discussing this issue, there seems to be some disconnect on who wants what clone. A lot of FFXI folks are accusing the WoW players of wanting a WoW clone, but almost all the comments in here made by those people kind of go like this:

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........ Anyway hopefully FFXIV will not force me to choose between healing or soloing like WoW did. Oh wait FFXI didn't make me do that either. Go figure.. I hope the job system stays exactly the same to be honest.


It sounds to me like there are more people who want an FFXI clone in this thread than there are those who want a WoW clone. Think about that for a minute.

I'd also like to address that comment for its content. FFXI didn't make you choose between healing and soloing, no. There wasn't a choice. You either partied, or you really had no hope of leveling. The issue has been lessened somewhat by the introduction of some new things, but it's been said before that not partying at the proper levels in the proper sequence often leaves you so far behind that you might as well have just waited that ten days for a standard party.

How is that any better than at least having a choice of playing a job a certain way in a group, or saying "***** you and your stupid 64.7whatever, I'm playing by myself" (and interestingly enough not falling behind on skills and etc. regardless of which you choose)?

The *choice* that is currently in FFXI isn't much of a *choice* at all to be honest. And that's what we don't want to see happen in the next game, choices that literally leave you so far behind in skill levels when you have to do something at your target level that you are practically non-existent.

Leaving everything exactly the same as it is in FFXI, which seems to be the general tone every time something is brought up that could be changed, will keep us just as crippled as we are now in terms of accessibility for all manner of gamers.
#309 Jun 09 2009 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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I think you guys are moving from FFXI vs WoW to Player Choice vs Trinity Gameplay

The question is who can you get away from Trinity Gameplay (tank, heal, dps)? Does that mean every job can heal, tank, dps? I know some my think WoW is like that with talents but jobs are still pigeons held to heal, tank, dps. This is almost always going to be the case when parser come out and the community can see the numbers. Ultimately the community is going to decide what jobs can excel at.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 10:52am by dyvidd
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#310 Jun 09 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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I am the one with the 80 restoration druid

STFU

I am reiterating What I am seeing personally not some exaggeration, not some made up garbage calculation assuming EVERYONE has 2k spell power. Right now restoration damage IS EXACTLY what I said it is no more no less.


You're an idiot.

Proof:

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Restoration pops 1k star fires at half the speed. 3 second cast star fires. Has to stop to heal between nukes. Wraths hit for 300-600 non crit for 1k or so. Its actually important to cc so you can cast without being hit. Wrath spam is the ideal DPS topping off at a whopping 400 DPS. getting one add means your probably going to be spending more time healing than dpsing.


Base stats for druid spells:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?page=700

Which is exactly what you listed, which is equivalent to leveling naked. And, one last time so the mouth breather might get it:

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YOU ARE USING BASE DAMAGE AND IGNORING ALL SPELL POWER


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The disparity between DPS and restoration specs solo in WoW is huge. Its not a small difference in any way shape or form.


You are right, it is a big disparity. Taking 150-200% longer to kill something is a huge disparity. However, when you are talking about going from 6 seconds to kill something to 12 and claim it's minutes and completely not viable, you just sound like an impatient whiny child.

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The common thing most people say with restoration spec is to not bother until level 80 for good reason.


You know why they say it? Because it is slower. No one here said you will level at the same speed - infact we have said it will be slower, but still viable.

So, let's look at it logically. You can either:

A) level as resto and take longer, but be able to heal in group instances

or

B) level fast as feral or boomkin, but still be able to heal in group instances (non-raid / non-heroic)

Wow, which one are the majority of players going to pick? Because seriously, if you have a set of gear made for healing, there is no reason you cannot do any of the leveling instances perfectly fine.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 1:03pm by KacesofCaitsith

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 1:04pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#311 Jun 09 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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Well this thread is still going, and there are still posts like this being made. The WoW players here are actually also FFXI players, and I'd really like people like you to stop trying to put me in this little box of being a single game player. I'm not only on the WoW side of camp. I play both, I'm bi-game, and I'd like XIV to be something greater than both WoW and FFXI. It seems that those of you who are only on the XI side of camp cannot fathom that there are people who actually enjoy BOTH games and BOTH developers.


This.


I'm also a Druid btw. Went Moonkin, because of my playstyle it was the closest thing to a Red Mage. And in FFXVI I'll probably be trying a Red Mage first again.
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#312 Jun 09 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Default
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WoW discussion in my FFXIV forums? It's more likely than you think!
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#313 Jun 09 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Izuul wrote:
I've been playing WoW for the last year now after having played FFXI off-and-on for about 4 years prior. Alot of this has already been mentioned by here are some of my thoughts on the subject...

1) Get rid of some of the tedious grinding and at least make soloing an option. I don't want groups to become totally unnecessary and unappealing b/c i enjoyed XP groups, but being able to solo at maybe 50% effectiveness would at least give you something to do while LFG or if you are only online for like an hour.


Agree here, and SE have confirmed this really, no point in bring it up.

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However, spending weeks trying to skill-up Greatsword on my Drk when i hit lvl 65 was retarded. Having to find skill-up groups to auto-attack for hours b/c i cant even survive against mobs close to my lvl made it even more retarded. Elements like that were completely unnecessary and need to be fixed.


Yes, I have to agree, and again this issue will be solved now that you can solo XP.

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2)Need instances. They aren't perfect, but they beat the **** out of fighting other groups for respawns. All that creates is frustration and tension b/t groups.


I agree that you could have some kind of instance based dungeons, but you can at the same time make outdoor areas larger and divided the areas into group based mobs and solo based mobs (aka normal and elite mobs). Also adjust the respawn time so that you don’t need to wait ages to make another pull.

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3) Tweak the combat system. It had alot of potential and alot of great elements (skillchains were great, alot of the abilities were very good), but, as others have said, was a bit too slow at times. This certainly doesn't mean that you need the lightning-fast-paced combat of WoW, but something in the middle would be nice.


This have been brought up before, but whatever changes you want to make, you need to take into account that FF14 servers are placed in Japan and that the inputted game mechanism should not be affected by your latency/ping. If it’s affected then the NA/EU player will be at a huge disadvantage.

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I expect to get arguments over this one, but i always thought that threat generation for tanks was too difficult as well. Yeah, some really skilled tanks (esp ones with full merits) were very good at holding aggro, but a whole lot more were not. And yes, walking the threat line is part of DDing, but it sucks when all of your DD have to wait until the mob is almost dead to fire off WSs b/c its an automatic threat-pull if they don't. It was also frustrating to get that double attack, double crit proc only to pull aggro with it, have no threat dump, and die b/c you *won* the RNG lottery.


I’m not much into threat holding in FFXI since I quit the game 2004, but if that’s how it is now, as you describe it, then yes, raise the bar a bit so that tanks can hold aggro a bit better.

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4)Keep the 1-toon system where you can just switch jobs! Nothing is more annoying than having to make a dozen different alts over multiple accounts in WoW just to play each class. Keeping up with the names of everybodies alts is just a nightmare. Also, it really sucks having to go back and get gear on your alts that you already have on your main but can't use b/c its bound to one toon.


Agree.

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5) Do not make ALL of the best gear only accessible from the current highest raid instance or from crafting recipes that only drop from said raid instance. This is another thing that FFXI has over WoW with their BCNMs, KSNMs, Assaults etc. However, it is cheesy having such an awesome item like the Leeping Boots drop from a lvl 10 lizard in a newby starting zone.


Not really, it adds flavor to the game, the point being made here is "variation and diversity". If you don’t like the way Leeping Boots is being obtained, others might like how it is obtained. There are also people that hate how you need to get the seals for BCNM/KSNM, but they have to live with it as well, you need to have a diversified game to suit many different type of game play. Some will suit YOUR game play and some not.

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6) More class flexibility. WoW has gotten this one about as right as anybody has. One class being able to both tank or DPS just by respeccing is really nice. It also gives every class at least one spec that is viable to level with. And the skill-tree also enables you to spec for soloing, spec for max-DPS, spec for raid-optimizing buffs etc. I was never a hater of the SJ system like some, so if SE can figure out how to attain some of the class flexibility of WoW via the SJ system then more power to them.


They will need to do something about this I agree, if they want to implement solo xp level up. I think the problem is that you have 20 classes to make talenttrees for and that might be a daunting task to accomplish.

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7) Make travelling easier, and give some way to summon party members. I think it's a bit TOO easy to get around in WoW and it makes the game feel too small, but FFXI had the exact opposite problem. It really sucked when you wanted to invite somebody to your party, but couldn't b/c it would take them an hour to get to you. Need to find a happy median here where the world still feels large like a world, but it's not so extremely time-consuming to get around.


Agree here.

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8) Keep the world dangerous! It's just way too easy in WoW. You can basically point yourself in the right direction, hit autorun, and go AFK without dying.


Agree.

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I loved the tension of running through a zone in FFXI knowing that i was in danger all of the time. My first trip to Jeuno through Jugner Forest and Batllia Downs is still one of my most memorable FFXI moments. However, it would be nice to be able to fend off at least one even-level mob, or be able to occasionally escape something tougher when you are detected. That's back to adding at least some kind of soloability though.


I think they will address this in FF14, since it will be more solo friendly then FF11.

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9) Completely different crafting system. WoWs is way too easy while FFXI's was way too gimmicky and frustrating, and perhaps a bit too time-consuming and tedious as well. Having to wait until a new moon on firesday while facing SW and then praying you got lucky on skillups was a bit too ridiculous when it took so long to gather together all of the items for the crafting session.


I don’t have a comment on this one :D

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10) More inventory space! Even with all of the gobbie bags, i still found myself getting full all of the time while trying to do things like craft. I don't care how they go about implementing it, just give us more bag space.


If you can have 20 classes on the same toon, this defiantly warrants more inventory space and also a very customized one that you can divide into type, level, class and so on. You can also have a system that gives you more inventory space the more you level up jobs to 75, this way people that really have benefit for it gets the extra inventory space needed.
#314 Jun 09 2009 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
LobsterJohnson, I couldn't agree with you more! It's like you're in my head!
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#315thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 09 2009 at 9:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) How much damage I do is has always been my main point and is about as relevant as it gets when talking about how quickly I kill monsters. No?
#316 Jun 09 2009 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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How did this thread devolve into a discussion about leveling as a resto spec druid in wow?

If it helps any, I leveled as resto from 70 to 80, and while it wasn't ideal, it was still 10x faster than leveling from 40-50 as any job in FFXI. Or so it seemed to me.

But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Can we get back to talking about the mechanics of FFXI and WOW, and looking at places where one or the other really seems to shine?

I'll start:

In my opinion, as frustrating as the crafting system can be in FFXI, it is still superior in virtually every way to the crafting system in WoW. The things that I would change from the current crafting system are:

1) Make it less carpal tunnel inducing to make things. I don't want to mechanically queue up everything I make, but a simple "repeat last" button would go a long way when I am grinding out 74563746587645 silent oils to get that last .7 skill.

2) Limit broken materials to those that are store bought and/or things like crystals. No one wants to see their Behemoth hide blow up because the gods of randomness were in a bad mood.

3) Make gathering less tedious. I don't want the resource tracking mini map feature from WoW, but having resources nodes that show up visually and indicate whether there are resources to be gathered would be an awesome thing. Tabbing around looking for an invisible hot spot is silly.

#317 Jun 09 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Druid leveling discussions?

Why is this still in debate with Dual Spec available? Yes, it's 1K but that is definitely not hard to come by unless you absolutely feel the need to save up for your epic flying skill first. And as a Druid, you're going to benefit more from Dual Spec than Epic FF anyway (IMO of course).

Seriously, Feral is best for leveling period. Resto is viable for leveling, but why would you want to do it? The only benefit you will see going Resto is quicker dungeon invites, but even then you don't need a Resto spec to heal. I've main healed instances just fine with my healing set on while using a full Feral Spec (with Omen of course). If you don't think you can do it, just look for a Healadin, a Shammy, or Shadow and ask them to assist. The stacked ticks and MP return on lifebloom makes it really hard to fail as a main HoT as long as your tank can keep a good portion of the hate. Having tree form for the healing bonus is what makes it easier for us in Raids and Heroics.

We are all pretty confident that SE will allow job changes, so this is a non-issue as far as FFXIV is concerned. The issue they need to address as far as jobs are concern is making sure that each job is decent at soloing. I don't want to spend thirty minutes to an hour killing things just to have an unfortunate link or aggro and have to start over.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 11:20am by sixgauge
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#318 Jun 09 2009 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
One thing I learned in wow was that 'Pulling' abilities that were available on the rouge and hunter classes were largely ignored by the populace.
Not true. Pulling by rogues and hunters was discouraged because of how aggro works in WoW. Tanks don't have snap aggro movies like Provoke. Instead Taunt simply puts them temporarily at the top of the threat list, giving the tank about 6 seconds or so to catch up.

Hunters in raids are expected to pull now the Misdirect has entered the piture.

Quote:
In WOW group play takes on 3 roles: Tank, healer, and DPS.

I liked the additions to group play in FFXI that included a 'Puller' and 'Support' class.
I'll disagree here. The holy trinity gives more leeway as far as class design goes. FFXI's greatest mistake was making "support" the 4th role, that basically comprised of one person in charge of replenishing MP. Because they invented this 4th role, it easily pigeonholed classes that had this ability into a role some of us didn't appreciate (I HATED the Refresh-bot Red Mage had been turned into). It also gives greater leeway when creating groups, since you have that one extra spot. If you're so bent on having debuffs and such, they need to be blended into what the DPS classes can do, with a couple only the tank and the healer can do.

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Poor enhancement Shamans and Discipline priests in WOW get forced into Main heal roles, without an appreciation for support abilities.
Enh. Shaman are DPS because of their dual wield mechanic, combined with windfury weapon and the fact that their most damaging abilities are all from melee range. Then only thing an Enh Shammy should be doing that's not DPS is drop poison cleansing totem and strength of earth if there's no Death Knight in the raid.

Disc priests are healers, but more focused on mitigating damage instead of power healing the way Holy priests can.
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#319 Jun 09 2009 at 10:46 AM Rating: Default
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KarlHungis wrote:
How did this thread devolve into a discussion about leveling as a resto spec druid in wow?

If it helps any, I leveled as resto from 70 to 80, and while it wasn't ideal, it was still 10x faster than leveling from 40-50 as any job in FFXI. Or so it seemed to me.

But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Can we get back to talking about the mechanics of FFXI and WOW, and looking at places where one or the other really seems to shine?


This was brought up in terms of forced grouping and leveling speed which a both relevant imho. However it also touches on a pretty major point in a very large difference between WoW and FFXI.

leveling speed in wow from levels 75-80 are actually very slow with time to level averaging between 3-5 hours provided you are set to optimally level. tak on another couple hours to your average if you are restoration.

Which is the main thing to keep in mind. How quickly you are leveling is not as relevant if you are enjoying yourself more. It feels faster than it really is. When in reality leveling in FFXI averages out to be considerably faster than wows leveling across the board.

How much of that time is actually spent leveling in FFXI? Compared to being LFG, or finding a new camp, or god forbid getting killed once and running all the way back. Its an astronomically small amount of time actually gaining experience points when compared to WoW you are always progressing.

If you know what you are doing and are well prepared and geared you can level VERY quickly in FFXI within the games main designed and intended parameters. Where as in wow you have kind of fudge the rules a bit and spam instances with a PL to attain the same effect.

I would love to see a stronger mix of both extremes personally. But actually don't mind leveling at all no matter how slow it is if I am enjoying myself. 5 hours per level is acceptable if I need plastic surgery to remove the smile from my face...

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 2:50pm by thorazinekizzez
#320 Jun 09 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:

leveling speed in wow from levels 75-80 are actually very slow with time to level averaging between 3-5 hours provided you are set to optimally level. tak on another couple hours to your average if you are restoration.
Edited, Jun 9th 2009 2:50pm by thorazinekizzez


3 hours is really, really fast and would probably require instance-leveling with a static 5-man group. I solo-leveled both toons that I've taken from 70-80 just doing quests, and it took probably 4-5 hours per level up to about 75 and then 5-6 hours from 75-80. I was pretty efficient too using QuestHelper and playing two strong soloing classes... a BM Hunter at release, and an Enhancement Shaman a couple months ago.

Five hours of fighting was enough to at least get you a significant portion of a level in a good party in FFXI too.. the biggest difference was the hours of downtime spent lfg and trying to replace party members.
#321 Jun 09 2009 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If it helps any, I leveled as resto from 70 to 80, and while it wasn't ideal, it was still 10x faster than leveling from 40-50 as any job in FFXI. Or so it seemed to me.


I hated how fast leveling was from 70-80. Exp gain was far too easy and you needed half of the new continent to get to 80.

Quote:
Seriously, Feral is best for leveling period. Resto is viable for leveling


Moonkin > Feral for leveling and you an use the same gear to heal instances for 70 to 80. Feral can't compete with a Moonkin killing 5-6 mobs at the same time with Hurricane.

Quote:
3 hours is really, really fast and would probably require instance-leveling with a static 5-man group. I solo-leveled both toons that I've taken from 70-80 just doing quests, and it took probably 4-5 hours per level up to about 75 and then 5-6 hours from 75-80. I was pretty efficient too using QuestHelper and playing two strong soloing classes... a BM Hunter at release, and an Enhancement Shaman a couple months ago.


Think 3 hours was the mage exploit. A couple of mages teamed up in a zone with skeletons really close together killing like 20(?) at the same time.

Average player without any exp buffs does probably about 7+ hourish per level


Edit: Anyway this stuff is in the past. Give us more data in FFXIV!



Edited, Jun 9th 2009 9:28pm by RedGalka
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#322 Jun 09 2009 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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This thread is so long but very interesting to read (got through the first page) and felt like posting, too.


I have played FFXI on and off for about five years, and only played WoW casually for half a year. I never got too in depth in end game, so I will try to express my thoughts as a casual gamer.


Walkthroughs/Wikis/SecondarySites
My major gripe about FFXI is that I have to rely so heavily on outside information to get anything done in the game. If I want to do a quest, the quests are so vague, that even some of the simpler ones, I have to go look up the information on a website. In WoW, I remember that the quest-giver, while not only entertaining me with story to go along with the quest, also told me where I had to go, and what the reward for the quest was. Why should I do a quest in a game without knowing what the reward is?

Crafting in FFXI also heavily relies on outside sources of information as the guild NPCs will only give you recipes randomly. If I don't rely on outside sources, then I still have to write down all of the materials the NPC gives me for a recipe. I found the crafting system simpler to understand in WoW where I could go and buy a recipe from the store, use it, and it gets copied to my recipe book where I could later consult it.


RTFM (Read the f'n Manual)
My one gripe about FFXI is in order to understand how to play the game at the beginning, I have to read the f'n manual. I don't want to read 120+ pages just to walk around and be able to attack. If I remember right, WoW was very easy to learn because it used a small in game walkthrough on how to do basic things. I don't recall ever having to open my manual for WoW in order to play the game.


In game maps
I think WoW wins here hands down. I really like the fill-it-in map method instead of having to buy a map, that doesn't really tell me any information anyway, as in FFXI. I liked how visiting an area in WoW, put it on my map. If I stayed to only the path, then only the path was on my map. If I visited a dungeon then the dungeon appeared on my map. The only way I remember where something is on FFXI maps, is if I make a note in the map menu, which then I have to fiddle with the menus constantly to find it.

I also like WoW's mini-map on the screen. The majority of MMO's and other RPG style games have them, but not FFXI. Being able to see where you are going and not having to constantly bring up the large map, is handy. Especially when being chased by a band of creatures trying to eat you for dinner. Which brings me to the next thing...


NPCs
Why does FFXI have so many useless NPCs? All they say is, "Welcome to Windurst" or "This is the gate to go outside"... Well duh... In WoW, if I'm being chased by a band of creatures and need to run away, and if I get close enough to a gate guard, the guard will assist me. If I run towards a guard in FFXI, all they do is stand there and let me die. How nice of you ><

I think NPCs in FFXIV should be more active and have a greater role than just standing there telling you this is the gate to go outside. In WoW, they at least tell me where things are. Need to find the thieve's guild, well here it is, and puts a flag on my map.


A Banking System
FFXI is one of the few games I have played without a banking system. Even Runescape has one. I would love to be able to store mats, stuff I can't use, extra money, in a bank. This prevents the need to make extra characters just to store things. I would prefer being able to keep all of my things on one character and not have it spread out to various ones. Even with all the extra storage SE eventually gave us in FFXI, I still ran out of space and found it tedious to send things 8 at a time to a 2nd character.




All in all, I would like to see FFXIV be more user friendly and not so dependent on outside information. Every game has walkthroughs, but I would prefer if more of my time was spent in the game, then out of the game looking up information. I would prefer that if I had to dig for information, it would be coming from NPCs that gave me useful clues, gave me more info, gave me more story.

One add-on I would like to see is something like a notebook where you can write down (type) things and save it in game. I can't even count the number of scraps, post-its, pieces of paper, notebooks, that I have lying around for all of the info I gathered from FFXI.
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#323 Jun 09 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Lady Laifierr wrote:
One add-on I would like to see is something like a notebook where you can write down (type) things and save it in game. I can't even count the number of scraps, post-its, pieces of paper, notebooks, that I have lying around for all of the info I gathered from FFXI.


I seriously love that idea! An in-game adventurer's notebook would be such a handy thing to have. I had a composition notebook nearly filled up with notes and vendor's items and prices and locations back in the day since i didn't play XI in windowed mode. Such a hassle!

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 12:55pm by topheru
#324 Jun 09 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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I used the macro pages as a notebook.
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#325 Jun 09 2009 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Lady Laifierr wrote:
One add-on I would like to see is something like a notebook where you can write down (type) things and save it in game. I can't even count the number of scraps, post-its, pieces of paper, notebooks, that I have lying around for all of the info I gathered from FFXI.

It would be better to have a built in system, but in MMORPGs that offer chat window and filter options you can already do this. Just use /say as your notebook.
#326 Jun 09 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
11 posts
To the OP:

I like what you have to say. Great post! Coming from FFXI and now playing WOW I have a few thoughts;

1) Instance Bosses / Dungeons - Yes Please, but I also liked the world boss challenge FFXI has to offer, just not with advantages to players with lower server lag. How about having some world bosses acquirable after feats (aka remember the Gods? Had to farm the pop items and then kill the 4 before you got a shot at Kirin). But also having some world bosses pop with mini-games attached. Say the Boss pops, then after a lore blurb, allows all that challenge him to attack / Tank / ect... then the top teams (damage, threat, healing) get a random 1-100 roll and "poof!" the world boss will now force a de-select on the losing teams and finish the fight with the lucky & worthy team.

2) Bind on Equip Gear - I would really like to see a progressive system put in place for binding gear. Similar to the repair WOW has but at a much slower rate. Like a "Bind on Character" after a set amount of usage. This way, if you just want that one piece to get you thru a level or two... or if you got lucky and won a rare drop, then you can sell the one you've only used for a few days. But if you use a piece of gear for a few weeks it would have progressed and eventually become bound on your character, no longer sellable to other players. The progression would have to be combat related, so gear you’re storing would not be subject to binding.

3) Crafting - Agree with you here about recipes, but I hope the crafting system is much tougher than WOWs. Everyone and there brothers are max crafters in something and it doesn’t feel like a "great" accomplishment when you max a craft in WOW compared to FFXI.

4) Ease - couldn't have put it better myself. That is what I've been missing since going to WOW, and blizzard is just making it even easier... a big downer for someone that feels leveling NIN/WAR in the starting days of blink tanking was the most fun I've ever had playing an MMORPG.

5) Combat - YES! When I tried to get back into FFXI after a year-or-so the slow monotonous combat was what pushed me away >< But mobs die way too fast in WOW... a good mix here would be awesome.

6) PVP - I hope not... man I hope not... the only PVP I would want to see is the mini-game on world bosses I mentioned above, not like the PVP in WOW or WAR. I agree with you 100% on this one.

I would like to see the same job changing ability FFXI offers. Having to log-in on a different toon for every job kind of blows. But a cool twist here might be to implement the same leveling scheme as the FFXI crafts own. Say... you can level 2-3 jobs to max, but during your route with an additional job... you have to pick a maxed job to start de-leveling in. If you want to have more max classes / jobs than what they allow, then you have the option to roll another toon.

Another down side to WOW that I felt FFXI complements on is the roles jobs play... if you’re a healer in FFXI you’re not going to do very good dealing damage. Where as in WOW... the healers (if spec'd right) can sometimes out DPS the DPS classes >< AND still get away with healing pre-end game.

I look forward to FFXIV and have high hopes. FFXI was my first MMORPG and I will never regret it; I just played it too much :P




Edited, Jun 9th 2009 4:57pm by LazyKz
#327 Jun 09 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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RedGalka wrote:
I used the macro pages as a notebook.

I do the same thing in World of Warcraft D:
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#328 Jun 09 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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My Background:

WoW: Hikage (Rogue) Level 80
Duration of Play: 1 Year
Reason for quitting: I didn't stimulate my mind/it got boring for me.

Final Fantasy XI: Kayanna (Monk, Ninja) Level 75
Duration of Play: 5 Years
Reason for quitting: Too time consuming

Now, by the numbers it'll seem that I'm more biased towards FFXi, but I'll stick to the objective of the topic.

Somethings that FFXIV might learn from WoW during my experiences:


Make more Solo Content

- If I were to give a percentage, I'd say either do a 40/60 or a 60/40 at maximum with the first number being solo and the second being group. I prefer the 40/60 personally because it embraces SE's original concept of FFXI as an online community and you have to seek help to do things.

Final Fantasy XI I would give a percentage rating of 25/70 where as WoW I would give about 80/20. That's not to say that these numbers can't flip, it was just that this is probably what the average playerbase "Joe Average" would say.


Have more diversity with regards to armor and weapons with similar stats.

Here's an example in WoW terms...sort of:

- Cloak of Rabid Bear
- Cloak of the Horned Toad
- Cloak of the Green Kiwi
- Cloak of the Deadly Banana

These are all obtained through a world drop system and they had similar, but not greater stats to

- Cloak of the Rock Fish (Dropped from Instance)
- Cloak of Brooding Brow (Quest Reward)

I'm not saying to follow their means to obtain exactly but just adding more variety would create a competitive market so that the emphasis on favoritism or elitism is lessened.


Enhanced Macro System
- Their macro system was much more diverse than FFXI and you could do a lot more. It was more complex and complicated at times, but when you got it to work, it made gameplay much easier. Though take care cause you wouldn't want to promote botting macros.


Guild Tabards or a way of distinguishing your guild or linkshell better.
- Definitely a plus cause everyone took pride in their guild tabards, and displayed them as such.


Guild Banks
- Guild banks were a great idea because you could house amor and items in them to use even though with their binding armors and weapons it usually was a one time use storage. Even still it wold give the opportunity for guild members to help out eachother if they came across certain items.

Guild Masters had a way to allocate permission to the guild members. There was a hierarchy within the guild so it took a certain level to get more responsibilities. The Guild Master or Officers could also allocate gold to the guild fund for fixing armor and such. This was usually done on a daily basis, for those that wished.


Monsters don't chase you to the end of the zone.

- Everyone remembers Valkurm Dunes for two things:

- 1) Newbie Parties
- 2) The mobs of goblins chasing everyone down to the end of the zone.

It's good that everyone remembers these stories and events, they're great. But at the time when you're running for your life or trying to gain experience, it wasn't so funny. Sometimes when you thought you were in the clear and the monsters weren't chasing you anymore, you'd rest only to find that 3 seconds later the monster and his friends that links caught up to you and decided to take out their anger on you.

Employ some sort of distance to agro or something so you don't always have to party by a zone.

These were only some of the things that I could objectively come up with I'm sure there's more. I truly hope that SE takes these into consideration.

p.s. I apologize for my lack of a writing format. I seemed to have lost it since my educational years.
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#329 Jun 09 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Just a quick mention: WoW had faster leveling times because they wanted people to not feel prohibited leveling up alternate characters. FFXI had slow times because all the progress was on one character, which to me made it feel a lot more gratifying.
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#330 Jun 09 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Default
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Just a quick mention: WoW had faster leveling times because they wanted people to not feel prohibited leveling up alternate characters. FFXI had slow times because all the progress was on one character, which to me made it feel a lot more gratifying.


In wow's case you have the solo friendly aspect of the game as well as casual friendly. With that in mind you want to remove as much grind and time sink as possible. Also the sad thing about WoW was that content made for group based levelups became obsolete since no one gives a **** about grouping for xp.
#331 Jun 09 2009 at 10:04 PM Rating: Default
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about 80% of the posts in the last 2 days on this forum have been about WoW entirely. Meaning that they were about WOW and not about FFXIV in the majority of their content.

I put forth the idea that I liked the multiple roles in FFXI of 'Puller' 'Tank' 'Healer' 'Damage' and 'Support'. Those 5 purposes could be divided into multiple combinations. An avoidance tank/DPS, An avoidance tank/puller, A bloodtank/healer, a Ranged DPS/Support, a Ranged DPS/Puller, a Healer/Support, a Ranged DPS/melee DPS.

All I read in response was how WOW intended such things to be, but that they got overlooked and marginalized. This thread is supposed to be about LEARNING FROM WOW. I think that this is one of the things that can be learned from WOW, how the classes devolved into the 'Holy Trinity' and how the classes all became homogenized for one reason or another.


Here is one other thing to learn from WOW, there is nothing like Skillchains and Magic Bursts in WOW. Yeah, you don't need them to get along in a party or even a boss fight, but they certainly did award players with a certain amount of skill and strategy a BONUS to having skill and strategy.

Wouldn't that be something nice to include in the next FF online? A system like skillchains/MB that rewarded players for strategical decisions and for having good teamwork, but didn't penalize those who didn't have good strategy and teamwork?
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#332 Jun 09 2009 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Employ some sort of distance to agro or something so you don't always have to party by a zone.

These were only some of the things that I could objectively come up with I'm sure there's more. I truly hope that SE takes these into consideration.


They already did take that into consideration, and it was fixed over a year ago.

One thing I would ask of all the players joining this forum because they wanted FFXI to be better, but quit over 3 years ago, is to read up on the changes SE did make.

They actually started to listen to the playerbase, and the current iteration of FFXI is far superior to the one we were given at NA launch.
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#333 Jun 09 2009 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
In wow's case you have the solo friendly aspect of the game as well as casual friendly. With that in mind you want to remove as much grind and time sink as possible. Also the sad thing about WoW was that content made for group based levelups became obsolete since no one gives a **** about grouping for xp.


Not true. A lot of people are using groups for instances these days to grind exp. And the exp is very good on the condition that you don't bring a high level friend to kill everything.

WoW has the choice between solo and grouping and because a lot of people pick solo it's called a solo game, but grouping can give you just as much exp only you're not forced to do it.
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#334 Jun 09 2009 at 11:36 PM Rating: Default
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RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
In wow's case you have the solo friendly aspect of the game as well as casual friendly. With that in mind you want to remove as much grind and time sink as possible. Also the sad thing about WoW was that content made for group based levelups became obsolete since no one gives a **** about grouping for xp.


Not true. A lot of people are using groups for instances these days to grind exp. And the exp is very good on the condition that you don't bring a high level friend to kill everything.

WoW has the choice between solo and grouping and because a lot of people pick solo it's called a solo game, but grouping can give you just as much exp only you're not forced to do it.


Indeed WoW has the choice, but a very small minority is using instances to grind xp. I don’t know where you got the idea that a lot of people are using instances to grind xp, but let me tell you that “a lot of people” = "10% tops if not less". Also at lower level instances (level 1-60) WoW is sanctioning EXPLOIT level up in instance and is still doing it until this day. They have ignored it but it’s a super easy way to gain xp extremely fast.

Bring 4 people that are at the same range as the instance and the last one a level 80. Preferably a paladin. Go inside and wait at entrance. The level 80 guy runs in pull everything and kills them all in 1 go close to the party so all get xp. Go out and reset and do it again. Continue with this pattern and you have level 1-60 in less than 1 day. After that it will take just a few days to level up to 80.

Again, PARTY XP has almost no relevance in WoW. If the option is available that doesn’t mean it will get utilized if there are other easier ways to gain xp.

On a side note, I heard a similar exploit was also developed in FFXI.

The problem, once again is that games that tries to adapt too much of casual/solo friendliness, will have a much more fragile game system that can be used for exploiting a faster level up when you are grouped.


Edited, Jun 10th 2009 3:37am by Maldavian
#335 Jun 10 2009 at 12:26 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Indeed WoW has the choice, but a very small minority is using instances to grind xp. I don’t know where you got the idea that a lot of people are using instances to grind xp, but let me tell you that “a lot of people” = "10% tops if not less". Also at lower level instances (level 1-60) WoW is sanctioning EXPLOIT level up in instance and is still doing it until this day. They have ignored it but it’s a super easy way to gain xp extremely fast.

Bring 4 people that are at the same range as the instance and the last one a level 80. Preferably a paladin. Go inside and wait at entrance. The level 80 guy runs in pull everything and kills them all in 1 go close to the party so all get xp. Go out and reset and do it again. Continue with this pattern and you have level 1-60 in less than 1 day. After that it will take just a few days to level up to 80.

Again, PARTY XP has almost no relevance in WoW. If the option is available that doesn’t mean it will get utilized if there are other easier ways to gain xp.

On a side note, I heard a similar exploit was also developed in FFXI.

The problem, once again is that games that tries to adapt too much of casual/solo friendliness, will have a much more fragile game system that can be used for exploiting a faster level up when you are grouped.


I guess we disagree. But let us be clear. I'm not talking about exploits. I'm talking about a regular group of people doing instances of the corresponding level range all the way from lowbie range to max range. The expercience points gained are just as good as soloing.

With "a lot of people" I meant that you could make group if you wanted to make a group at any level range.

Quote:
Again, PARTY XP has almost no relevance in WoW. If the option is available that doesn’t mean it will get utilized if there are other easier ways to gain xp.


Again, we disagree. The party xp gained from instances is equal to soloing on the condition you respect the level ranges and don't bring a lv 80 to clear it for you or get banned for your proposed exploit.
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#336 Jun 10 2009 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
11 posts
Quote:
Just a quick mention: WoW had faster leveling times because they wanted people to not feel prohibited leveling up alternate characters. FFXI had slow times because all the progress was on one character, which to me made it feel a lot more gratifying.


Yes, and I hope what is learned from WOW is that slower, more gratifying leveling is still a solid foundation for MMORPGs. Just not the super long boring grinds.

FFXI party aspect + the WOW dungeon = no chain competition and new scenery at every corner. Throw in a few bonus boss fights to challenge your group.

>>so you head off into the Dunes at Lv12 and pick up a few solo quests to do while LFG. The bats and crabs give smaller amounts of exp & profits, but you also get good crafting rewards from completing the quests and small amounts of exp. Now you finally get the party you were looking for... you head off to the 1 of 4 group leveling areas (say; cave, castle, unique instanced section of the zone, ect...) meet up & go into the instance. Inside you play out a scenario similar to a WOW dungeon but having to really time and strategize your pulls... as the 3-4 mob fights just won't cut it. During this time you will be using group based abilities, chains, magic bursts, ect. Also gaining a very nice amount of exp along with good cash. In these instances you will also have a shot at rare mobs, or rare drops.<<


Quote:
Bring 4 people that are at the same range as the instance and the last one a level 80. Preferably a paladin. Go inside and wait at entrance. The level 80 guy runs in pull everything and kills them all in 1 go close to the party so all get xp. Go out and reset and do it again. Continue with this pattern and you have level 1-60 in less than 1 day. After that it will take just a few days to level up to 80.


I hope FFXIV is designed to eliminate power leveling as much as possible. WAR has a neat, but annoying concept I am positive is only there for because of the PVP aspect. I feel all the work WOW put into there classic dungeons is now wasted. It's a shame really... they are very neat dungeons, but it is near impossible to level a toon experiencing them since you level so fast solo no one really runs them unless they are being power leveled or twinked.


#337 Jun 10 2009 at 8:51 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Inside you play out a scenario similar to a WOW dungeon but having to really time and strategize your pulls... as the 3-4 mob fights just won't cut it. During this time you will be using group based abilities, chains, magic bursts, ect. Also gaining a very nice amount of exp along with good cash. In these instances you will also have a shot at rare mobs, or rare drops


I really really dislike spamming instances for xp. How many times do I have to listen to some corny dialog from a boss saying "I NEVER EXPECTED YOU TO GET THIS FAR!!!!! NO MATTER BECAUSE YOU SHALL ALL DIE TO MY SUPER SECRET ATTACK!!!!!!"

>.>;
This was a huge problem with WoW and really adds to its CHEESE factor by a large amount... Not only that but it has negative effects on the player base once the instances become actually possible to wipe in. You have to explain to people over and over and over and over not to do this or that or to run to X location when the Boss goes into X state or DONT CLICK THESE GUYS OR WE ALL DIE!!

Seriously id rather kill some blue crabs for 2 hours and get 5 levels in a lot of cases... Provided that I don't ever fight blue crabs again... Which was a problem in FFXI that drove me crazy... At least make the @#%^ing crabs green this time you @#%^s... Open photo shop change HUE done. thanks in advance.

Though Id much rather do garrison style event or something like campaign to gain xp with open grouping system where simply participating places you in a group with other people automatically.. Save the instances for missions and end game events where they belong vary up the experience a tad then point and laugh at how archaic WoW is by comparison.

Campaign style events are the bread and butter of FFXI whether SE wants to admit it or not. Not only is it an amazing concept but its completely original to the genre in implementation. If you can just for a second take your head out of Blizzards *** you would see that SE has been sitting on a gold mine of a concept that is completely new and nothing like wow at all.. In this one case I would be perfectly fine with it if SE turned a blind eye to WoW altogether. Stopped forcing us to attack inanimate objects for 30 minute stretches, allowed more side questing to be streamlined, allowed this system to be the games core leveling method and sat on a pile of fun cash for the next five years...

I mean the fact alone that the quests I am doing have an actual effect on a world battle system is a huge deal. I joined the game as a level 1 player and ran out supplies during a huge battle and helped a large group of 75s overtake 15 behemoths that were attempting to ravage X town.

If that was my first experience with the game and how I went from levels 1-5 it would have my *** so hooked on the game id be like "People still play WoW?"

*shrugs*

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 12:52pm by thorazinekizzez
#338 Jun 10 2009 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Campaign style events are the bread and butter of FFXI whether SE wants to admit it or not. Not only is it an amazing concept but its completely original to the genre in implementation. If you can just for a second take your head out of Blizzards *** you would see that SE has been sitting on a gold mine of a concept that is completely new and nothing like wow at all.. In this one case I would be perfectly fine with it if SE turned a blind eye to WoW altogether. Stopped forcing us to attack inanimate objects for 30 minute stretches, allowed more side questing to be streamlined, allowed this system to be the games core leveling method and sat on a pile of fun cash for the next five years...


Campaign battles aren't anything like running the same instances with the same mobs, the same pitfalls, and the same bosses over and over again for xp?

Seriously, what game are you playing?
#339 Jun 10 2009 at 8:59 AM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
Quote:
Campaign style events are the bread and butter of FFXI whether SE wants to admit it or not. Not only is it an amazing concept but its completely original to the genre in implementation. If you can just for a second take your head out of Blizzards *** you would see that SE has been sitting on a gold mine of a concept that is completely new and nothing like wow at all.. In this one case I would be perfectly fine with it if SE turned a blind eye to WoW altogether. Stopped forcing us to attack inanimate objects for 30 minute stretches, allowed more side questing to be streamlined, allowed this system to be the games core leveling method and sat on a pile of fun cash for the next five years...


Campaign battles aren't anything like running the same instances with the same mobs, the same pitfalls, and the same bosses over and over again for xp?

Seriously, what game are you playing?


Its more like playing battlefield or Quake or something MEANT TO FLOW IN A CYCLIC FASHION!!

The flow doesn't in any way mimic a single player linear design flow and philosophy. Its scripting is more open ended and it doesn't pretend to be like a movie.

Instead things happen and you react. The cool things happen on their own and not as a result of some canned *** prescripted game of SIMON SAYS.

Its the difference from playing a game and watching a movie.
If you don't see the difference I cant help you. Also too I am thinking on a different scale. Improving the already existing system would VARY the experience even more like I already explained.

it also happens on its own so eliminating LFG entirely. Log on and play in groups. Its the best of both worlds where you can play as long as you like while in groups..

My god people are you blind?

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 1:04pm by thorazinekizzez
#340 Jun 10 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure what all your jibberjabber has to do with instances thorazinekizzez.
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#341 Jun 10 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Default
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Example:

Bastok and Windurst main front see the oppertunity to launch a massive attack on the orc main stronghold. both armies gather up supply runs and begin to prepare for the attack. You see high level players shouting for low level players and the like to begin gathering supply's and crafting materials to turn in for quests that raise each nations prosperity and moral. ( This is done simply by doing quests that feel a lot like standard WoW quests but you are asked to do specific ones. ) People begin building up catapults and potions ect to launch the attack.

Both armies are poised with their most elite NPCs and most well geared players from all 3 nations, 80 players and 120 npcs attack and take down the main gates of the orcs outer castle walls. 2 hours go by and the Orc army requests the help from the yagudo. This is seen by all players because at that very moment a lower level player was running a reconnaissance quest and spoted an orc caravan leaving through the back walls of the castle. This player was rewarded a huge sum of xp.

If this caravan is not stopped in time the Yagudo will be informed to help. At that moment people begin to try and reach the caravan and only a small group of lower level players are able to get there in time. They attack kill 4 of the 5 orcs before they wiped simply because the one orc was higher level than the other 4. the last orc reaches the Yagudo... "Sun of a *****!!"

Yagudo attack from behind killing and wiping out alliances in the back row obliterating catapult launchers and lower level players who are running supplies and handling smaller trash mobs. The attack is felt on both sides so the main set of people on the front have to run back deciding that they cannot allow the yagudo to do too much damage or it could risk the entire operation.

This however causes a chance for the shadowlord to retaliate as well which is a risk you simply have to take. Once 2 of the 3 main armies are in a single battle the shadowlords chance to retaliate increases by 5% The shadow lords army is different from other types in that he has the ability to form and launch attacks on the world map regardless of who owns what territory.

The yagudo are doing terrible damage to the catapults on the back line crippling the entire operation. Just then 40 more high level players from Sandoria who had just got back from a defensive operation in the northern region against the Quadavs had ended in victory. The yagodu are destroyed and 4 more catapult launchers are brought up to the back line. The 40 people happen to be an elite super hardcore end game linkshell with the best players in the world. They push to finally destroy the Orcs inner sanctum begins. Dead players are raised ect.

All of a sudden people begin reporting the scenes of behemoths and gigas right outside the sandorias main zone. Some people at that point realized nobody has been paying attention to the fact that the shadowlords army has been sitting on max prosperity and moral for a few hours ever since this entire operation has began. And just by chance it caused a high potential that he can launch a devastating attack on sandoria itself!! The odds of this happening were roughly 5% but it happened anyway.

People begin to react as they see huge number of the most terrible factions from the shadowlords army begin spawning in the outside location and prepare to attack sandoria level 10 besieged style. People begin shouting in town for everyone to begin doing quests to gather defensive materials and supply's. If sandoria falls everyone knows that it would be a huge hit to the entire population of the server. And the only way to get it back is a large scale dynamis/besiged style 60 person raid instance. Everyone on the server is informed to help out and all major linkshells not already on the front to take out the Orcs are asked to help with sandoria.

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Oh uh people still play WoW? it was an old EverQuest clone wasn't it? Thats my thoughts personally. You put a new coat of paint on a system like campaign and good knows wtf could happen.

Its entirely possible that end game could end up being completely reactive in nature. instead of LFG I want to run some Naxx it would be "Holy sh*t I dont give a **** what gear you have we need help over here **** it!!".

Fundamentally different style of play from what we are all used to. And comes as a result of not even bothering to look at WoW beyond some cool technical stuff they did maybe.. maybe not.

This thread is actually flawed in that respect

RedGalka wrote:
I'm not sure what all your jibberjabber has to do with instances thorazinekizzez.


Instances are NOT REACTIVE CYCLIC GAMEPLAY!!!! They are redundant prescripted rows of sequences that happen exactly the same way every ******* time..

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 2:07pm by thorazinekizzez
#342 Jun 10 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez - in responce to your above post...

I like that concept, but I also like to have added instances to allow for more strategic party play. One of the best parts of FFXI was when you took pride in starting, progressing and capping off skill chains. As a matter of fact, it was almost a must to chain if you wanted to get anywhere with leveling. I think it's changed now... I just remember coming back to FFXI with one of the expansions and hearing about the 50+ exp chains just from everyone going nuts... TP burn parties was it? IDK, it's been awhile... A few things I think instance based leveling would help with is;

1) Standing in the same spot, killing the blue crab 1000 times was boring after awhile >.>

2) Then standing in that same spot watching your exp chain go down the drain as the group next to you helped kill the crabs before they could pop. They may have fixed this, but an instance would elimiate it as well.

The very nicely put example you have above (I like it!) would be awesome and similar to another game coming out; Heroes of Telara. Here is the link to an interview; http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/431/feature/3112/page/1.

I'll quote one of the parts in the [Interview with Chris Mancil]

"Both lower and higher level characters could contribute to the quest in their own way. Even if a character was brand new, they could help out through fire fighting while higher level players tried to take down the demonic invaders."

#343 Jun 10 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Hmmmmmm... I predict a thread lock coming on!
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#344 Jun 10 2009 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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jayfly wrote:

Hmmmmmm... I predict a thread lock coming on!


I hope so, because this has just degenerated into nonsense. I really think that things are getting pulled out peoples' bums at this point.
#345 Jun 10 2009 at 10:49 AM Rating: Default
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LazyKz wrote:
thorazinekizzez - in responce to your above post...

I like that concept, but I also like to have added instances to allow for more strategic party play.


Well truth be told
As much as I might vividly imagine campaign for its full potential. Any MMO worth its salt should provide options. I like instances more for one shot, once a week style events though. Missions and special events.

But not the biggest fan of spamming them for a random drop rate piece of armor or XP.. That might just be me...

unless maybe they are randomly generated diablo style but that's another system entirely. Moblin Maze mongers done to be more casual is another system with a lot of potential...

Anyway I need to leave this thread for a day I spent too much time here lol...

Torrence wrote:
jayfly wrote:

Hmmmmmm... I predict a thread lock coming on!


I hope so, because this has just degenerated into nonsense. I really think that things are getting pulled out peoples' bums at this point.


campaign system man.
Mass monster spawning rule sets at its heart is a very powerful system. These rules are conveyed to the players based on a UI. Its a very simple concept. Pulling this out of my *** is an example of you not getting it.

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 2:53pm by thorazinekizzez
#346 Jun 10 2009 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm also a Druid btw. Went Moonkin, because of my playstyle it was the closest thing to a Red Mage. And in FFXVI I'll probably be trying a Red Mage first again.


Did you ever try Warlock? I always thought they were kinda RDM'ish too. Kite and DoT kinda play.
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#347 Jun 10 2009 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Did you ever try Warlock? I always thought they were kinda RDM'ish too. Kite and DoT kinda play.


I did, but for parties I like to play flexible support more.
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#348 Jun 11 2009 at 4:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Well... one thing i've learned from WOW is that flying mounts are awesome. Who's with me here... flying chocobo mounts FTW!
#349 Jun 11 2009 at 5:28 AM Rating: Default
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WoW has a very linear and boring leveling trend. You take a few quests, all of which ask to you do one of the following: gather X amount of a certain item, kill a certain amount of a certain enemy, explore a certain area, and/or escort a certain NPC. Granted, with the new expansion(s), they've changed it up a little (flying/bombing quests, argent tournament, etc.), but quests and leveling in general was very boring and repetitive. FFXI fixed this to an extent with the mission system, but the rest of it was pretty much a straight grind. I'd love to see more of an immersive story line, more mission-based quests, over-arching plots. Even the "get me X of these" quests should scale up and become chains; maybe ending with the NPC crafting you a whole SET of gear. Interesting quests to get your new weapons, interesting quests for money, interesting quests that lead to whole new areas, interesting quests just because.
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#350 Jun 11 2009 at 6:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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WoW has a very linear and boring leveling trend. You take a few quests, all of which ask to you do one of the following: gather X amount of a certain item, kill a certain amount of a certain enemy, explore a certain area, and/or escort a certain NPC. Granted, with the new expansion(s), they've changed it up a little (flying/bombing quests, argent tournament, etc.), but quests and leveling in general was very boring and repetitive.


My first thought was a flashback to Dunes sitting at the beach waiting for crabs, then had flashbacks of The Boyahda Tree, Kuftal Tunnel, Gustav Tunnel, Misareaux Coast and again The Boyahda Tree all with that same crab, doing the same stuff over and over and over and over again.

Quote:
FFXI fixed this to an extent with the mission system, but the rest of it was pretty much a straight grind.


Huh. The cutscenes were nice but don't see what this had to do with leveling. It was a side thing where you gather X amount of a certain item, kill a certain amount of a certain enemy, explore a certain area, and/or escort a certain NPC.

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I'd love to see more of an immersive story line, more mission-based quests, over-arching plots.


Would love that too.

Quote:
Even the "get me X of these" quests should scale up and become chains; maybe ending with the NPC crafting you a whole SET of gear. Interesting quests to get your new weapons, interesting quests for money, interesting quests that lead to whole new areas, interesting quests just because.


But you just said those where very boring and repetitive I would like to know from you what "interesting" means for you. How would those quests have to change so they would become "interesting".
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#351 Jun 11 2009 at 7:53 AM Rating: Decent
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But you just said those where very boring and repetitive I would like to know from you what "interesting" means for you. How would those quests have to change so they would become "interesting".


One of the first quests you get in San d'Oria is to get some leather/skins and make a piece of armor for yourself. It was given to you by a leatherworker, it was completely in context, and you didn't have to do it. It wasn't a part of some over-arching plot, it was just some Mithra looking for a little work, and offering you a service. It would be really nice to see guilds of crafter NPCs offering chains like that to people who were a member of their guild/profession, but otherwise completely out of the way.

What I mean't by "scale up" was they start out with the bland "I need X of these" quests, and then turn into something else. The first thing that comes to mind is something like: Quest 1: NPC asks you for 10 spider fangs to create a poison. Quest 2: NPC tells you to take the poison and poison a different NPC that's leading a battle to burn down some sort of trade route that he needs kept up. So you go to poison the NPC, and that NPC offers you some sort of quest, which you can only take if you decide not to poison him. So on and so forth. Not "ok, now I need 10 of these", "ok, now 5 of these".

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My first thought was a flashback to Dunes sitting at the beach waiting for crabs, then had flashbacks of The Boyahda Tree, Kuftal Tunnel, Gustav Tunnel, Misareaux Coast and again The Boyahda Tree all with that same crab, doing the same stuff over and over and over and over again.


Yeah, I never said FFXI fixed this problem. However, I do think Missions were a step in the right direction. They were an overarching story. In the context they were set in, when I did them for the first time, I was interested in doing them. I was never interested in the "find me 10 of these" quests, even my first run through. Even if it's just to get to the cinematic and see what's going, that's a good reason to do it. I just didnt have that serious urge to do gathering quests, as I did with missions.
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