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Learning from WoWFollow

#352 Jun 11 2009 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:

But you just said those where very boring and repetitive I would like to know from you what "interesting" means for you. How would those quests have to change so they would become "interesting".


How it worked as far as evolution in MMO leveling models was

EverQuest
Grinding monsters for XP in groups manditory

FFXI
Grinding monsters for XP Solo or in a group. Grouping == faster. Skill chains magic bursts or super fast pulling to spice up combat. A step above EverQuest.

WoW
Questing for xp solo with the choice to join a group. A monumental step forward in evolution however grouping is dead at this point for the most part.

You can write an entire page about how this evolutionary process has gone its path and WHY exactly Questing for XP solo with the choice to join a group will garner far more people than before.

Its all has to do with how interesting your leveling model is in and of itself. Questing for XP changes your experience, you get to read a story that unfolds and it helps you forget that all you are doing is grinding monsters. However it also allows for your experience to change by providing quests that don't even necessarily involve combat. This is the single most important aspect wow has PERIOD. All other features beyond this are minuscule in comparison.

With FFXI Squares method on improving on the everquest model they opted to attempt to make the combat itself more interesting. Thinking of ways to only slightly improve on the old model. Banking on the fact that leveling with other players is also a way to change the players experience.

The next step in this evolutionary process is pretty obvious. Events like Wintergrasp, campaign, besieged are examples of the next logical step.

So if you have this evolutionary process it makes this argument silly. Any leveling model that guarantees an engaging experience is a step in the right direction. It might not be the direction things are currently going. But that's not important. its not impossible to make killing blue crabs constantly fun its just really @#%^ing hard. Those will have to be some insanely interesting blue crabs to pull that off...

Edited, Jun 11th 2009 12:05pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, Jun 11th 2009 12:06pm by thorazinekizzez
#353 Jun 11 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Decent
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its not impossible to make killing blue crabs constantly fun its just really @#%^ing hard.

The reward system is a good place to start. WoW did this with gear and FFXI now has this in the form of extra exp from FoV. The rewards are only limited to the imagination of the developers. It could be anything really: R/E crafting materials and dispensable tools, Ammunition/Reagents, etc.
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#354 Jun 11 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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sixgauge wrote:
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its not impossible to make killing blue crabs constantly fun its just really @#%^ing hard.

The reward system is a good place to start. WoW did this with gear and FFXI now has this in the form of extra exp from FoV. The rewards are only limited to the imagination of the developers. It could be anything really: R/E crafting materials and dispensable tools, Ammunition/Reagents, etc.


The meaning of the rewards themselves are greatly diminished if the actual act of earning the rewards is not entertaining by itself. A good place to start is the act of earning the rewards being a reward in and of itself.

I wont say that incentive isn't also a powerful tool though. I agree with you. But if your goal is to nip this lack of fun in the bud incentive is not the place to start.
#355 Jun 11 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
The meaning of the rewards themselves are greatly diminished if the actual act of earning the rewards is not entertaining by itself. A good place to start is the act of earning the rewards being a reward in and of itself.

I entirely agree. Anyone will do anything if you pay them enough, but you know they are having fun when they do an activity without being paid.
#356 Jun 11 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I entirely agree. Anyone will do anything if you pay them enough, but you know they are having fun when they do an activity without being paid.


Name me one such activity where you don't get paid in any kind of way, because sadly the only kind of thing I can think of is trolling in city chat.
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#357Maldavian, Posted: Jun 11 2009 at 2:39 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Relevance to the thread topic ?
#358 Jun 11 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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It's just an adjustment to the new max lv. They want the time needed to grinding to max from one to be the same. Older content is done and time for something new I guess
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#359Maldavian, Posted: Jun 11 2009 at 2:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You might as well have an option to let your character start at level 70 or even 80, I hope you see my point of criticism.
#360 Jun 11 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Oh uh people still play WoW? it was an old EverQuest clone wasn't it? Thats my thoughts personally. You put a new coat of paint on a system like campaign and good knows wtf could happen.


People realize that it's the same thing with a prettier wrapping? And like i said before - they have to reinvent things for this game. If they simply polish over old content how long do you think it will be before people who have played ffxi for years say f-it and go to their established characters and play the previous revision of the newer game? (EQ1 and EQ2 come to mind here).

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Its entirely possible that end game could end up being completely reactive in nature. instead of LFG I want to run some Naxx it would be "Holy sh*t I dont give a **** what gear you have we need help over here **** it!!".


And you can also wind up removing entire sections of the game from players because of that. Imagine starting the game for the first time and not being able to do a single thing because your starting city was decimated?


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Fundamentally different style of play from what we are all used to. And comes as a result of not even bothering to look at WoW beyond some cool technical stuff they did maybe.. maybe not.

This thread is actually flawed in that respect


People like you who get personally offended at the shear notion of having any element of wow in their game are what is wrong with this thread. Why is it that a pretty **** cool feature such as JUMPING is met with hostility?

The unwillingness of people to allow multiple playstyles into a game is what is wrong with threads like this. You want grouping? Go for it. You want a solo option? Go for it. How friggin hard is that?

And one more time for good measure:

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If I have seen further it is by standing on ye shoulders of Giants


There is a difference between ripping something off and learning from someones previous trials.

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I hope SE won’t follow WoW as we constantly see these of kind of things that utterly destroys WoW.


Kinda like how SE let players call chocobo's in the field?

Edited, Jun 11th 2009 7:46pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#361 Jun 11 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Lol, I totally agree, people more complain about leveling than they do enjoy it. People make it a labor that they try to rush through as fast as possible. Why didn't they just make WoW a LAN game rather then a MMO. Anyone I talk to, stays for the end-game-dungeons and their "epic"-gear.

Why is it also that anyone I talk to about WoW the perfect expert of their class? Anyone else ever notice that? Talk to someone about WoW, name a specific class they play, and I bet they will tell you exactly how you should play because they know the best way.

Back onto the REASON THIS THREAD WAS MADEIf you want to talk about WoWs patches or how to play a class, plz go to the WoW forums.

I think a lot of stuff can be learned from WoW (and I don't even like the game)

Jumping
I talked about this in another thread, but I'll sum it up. If I have to walk 500 feet around a 1 foot tall ledge ever again, That will kill a 3D experience for me.

Mount Variety I know that chocobo is THE final fantasy mount, and always will be, but with modern MMO and gamer audiences, that is not gonna fly. I personally could care less what is moving me at a faster speed, but people will complain

Armor Variety WoW has terrible skins for Armor, but **** do they have a so many varieties of it. Just stray away from retexturing the skin and chest models with scales, and then throwing HUGE shoulders and fancy helmets on. That is the Worst way to make armor. I know I don't want skin tight armor with half ton weights on my shoulder. I do not like the way they make their armor, but I like that they have a lot of it.

Guilds, and reasons to have them
I know there are people that are out there, that are in favor of just keeping link shells with that hard to distinguish what color that pearl next to a characters name. I am sorry but you are in a extremely small percentage of gamers out their compared to other MMOs and online games. If I want to spend time with a group of people, I want benefit rather then just being able to "chat" with them. I want to display and show my guild to the world. I am proud of it. I want a Cape, I want exclusive things that a hard working guild can only get, and yes I would like my guilds name under my characters name.
some may say "Makes everything to cluttered!" well guess what, one line of text will not make everything cluttered. Plus the fact that it is a MMO the first M stands for MASSIVELY meaning, if you can't stand a lot of something, you are in the wrong game.

Character Customization (rather they learn from City of Heroes)
city of heroes is another game, I didn't enjoy for long. I was soooo amazed at the level of customization I could do in that game. You will never run into someone that looks remotely similar to you, and It made attachment to your character all the better, because you made him/her from the ground up.

Spells
Mainly the accessibility of other MMO's hot bar, even for those people that hate having something more then just their character on the screen, you could pull a guild wars and only allow 8 on a bar at once. Or better yet, allow how many slots you want on the screen. The people that want 50 slots taking up half their screen, go ahead and do that, But I would only want like 2 bars of 12 with easy to read descriptions of the spell and icons that are easy to understand.

Maps
I agree with a lot of the things already said in the posts, but I will restate them simply. Radar with customization of what you want to see and what you don't want to see in it. A easy quick button press of "M" to see where the F*** you are going.

Landscape
WoW may not be the prettiest MMO, but I loved exploring random places where I would find Easter Eggs and other things that would get me excited even if they served no purpose other then looking cool (SCREENSHOT!) I love just wandering around and exploring, never really wanted to in FFXI because It took me half the day to get where I wanted anyways so I would not take any detours.

Classes/Jobs
Lol, people are expecting me to say something to learn from. Ha! Please do not take lessons from WoW and keep putting something to complete uselessness or completely overpowered. I love FFXI Job system, and I think that should stay. If FFXIV has both that job system, and a weapon leveling sytem, then I would be an extremely happy camper

That's about all I could come up with.
#362 Jun 11 2009 at 4:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maldavian wrote:

I hope SE won’t follow WoW as we constantly see these of kind of things that utterly destroys WoW.


You're just a negative, negative person, aren't you?

"Utterly destroys" WoW? Exaggerate much? C'mon...get real. Unless, of course, you're still resentful of those crazy kids with their dungarees and their skateboards and their rock 'n roll music I bet when you were a kid you had to walk 10 miles to school uphill both ways through 4 feet of snow in the blazing July heat before returning home to plow 10 acres and milk 50 cows if you wanted to be given dinner that night. Amirite?

Pop a Geritol and get over yourself.
#363 Jun 11 2009 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope they don't use washed out & old rockers to promote their product.
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#364 Jun 11 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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You might as well have an option to let your character start at level 70 or even 80, I hope you see my point of criticism


Yup starts at 58ish, but you must have done the content once to 55 I think.

Thing is that you still kind of have to see a lot of old content (more of the exspansions), but in FFXI the old zones basically got replaced by news zones to level in to some extend?

I'm very excited about how FFXVI is going to turn out and even about what problems it will encounter and how it will compare to FFXI and to a lesser extent to WoW. And I'm not hoping for a WoW clone. I just want to keep the facts seperated from the rumors -.-
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#365thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 11 2009 at 7:58 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Is the very core essence of the entire process! This has been the main cog that has powered everything you see before you!! Questing for XP was the SOLE REASON WoW attained its audience. At its heart was but a small change. A thin veil at best yet it has won Blizzard incredible riches!!
#366 Jun 11 2009 at 8:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:

FOR GOD SAKES MAN LOL
LOOK AT HOW EVOLUTION WORKS BEFORE YOU SPEAK!!!! You might as well forget how to speak if you are going to forget something so basic. Learn TO COMPREHEND!!!! It PAINS me to see such a blatent attempt to disagree with a person simply for the sake of disagreeing. LOL Do you bother to consider the points brought before you?


You yell too much :P
#367thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 11 2009 at 8:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) edited for quality...
#368 Jun 11 2009 at 9:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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I want to swim, yes yes please, i played WoW for nearly a year, and one of my favorite things was to swim along side the coast, just because, i did a lot of exploring that way, until i found elite type or way to high level monsters for me, then i had to go back, i also spent a lot of time swimming with my undead warlock... with the right level you could stay underwater forever, that was really fun to me, exploring underwater, watching those big chasms, wondering if the sea had a bottom, wondering if there was some sort of gigantic monster down there that was going to eat me in one bite...

I have a very cool swimsuit in FFXI, and yet i cannot swim :(

Also if you are going to let us jump this time, make it that no jumping inside the city... that is all.
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#369Shazaamemt, Posted: Jun 11 2009 at 10:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Post count +1.
#370 Jun 11 2009 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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Also if you are going to let us jump this time, make it that no jumping inside the city... that is all.

This is an interesting idea after I gave it a moment of thought. I was going to suggest putting a limit on how frequently one could jump, but I think no jumping in town would be at least as good. Make people abide by some gosh darn rules of etiquette, ya know? =P
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#371 Jun 12 2009 at 3:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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FOR GOD SAKES MAN LOL
LOOK AT HOW EVOLUTION WORKS BEFORE YOU SPEAK!!!! You might as well forget how to speak if you are going to forget something so basic.


So, what your saying is that by the time we hit ffxxiv that the game will actually break away from the play mechanics of ffxi?


Quote:
Learn TO COMPREHEND!!!! It PAINS me to see such a blatent attempt to disagree with a person simply for the sake of disagreeing. LOL Do you bother to consider the points brought before you?


Seriously, i think you're a tool. But i said the same exact thing earlier in the thread. I do not want a rehashed ffxi anymore then i want a wow-clone. So in this case it was not anything specific to you, just reiterating my same stance - if they just shine up the same mechanics and playstyle the game will not surpass ffxi.

The same arguement can be made, and accurately, about making a wow clone - it will not surpass wow.

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Just because I SAY THEM doesn't make them any less true!!


You're also the guy who said that by simply switch spec's to resto, all of his spell power disapeared.

Basically, you're an idiot and unless you present concrete evidence I will assume you continue to be so.

Quote:
My point was that a tree can have many branches. And they typically do. And stagnation occurs when you attempt to cut them all off. There are in fact systems in FFXI that can be improved that do not exist in wow. Systems that that when extended can create far more advanced environments! And Evolution in game design works best in these parameters!!


And the point OF THE ENTIRE THREAD is of features that would be benificial to be taken from WoW. You want to talk about how to take things from ffxi and incorperate them into ffxiv - START A NEW F-ING THREAD!

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Is the very core essence of the entire process! This has been the main cog that has powered everything you see before you!! Questing for XP was the SOLE REASON WoW attained its audience. At its heart was but a small change. A thin veil at best yet it has won Blizzard incredible riches!!


And yet, if i were to say I would like quests to give exp rewards more often then not the ffxi zealots would cry about how they don't want anythign to do with wow.

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Ah internet.. people speak but they do not know..


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I have 1.5k spell power and when i switch spec's to resto my spells hit for their base damage!


Yeah, you're right about people speaking when they do not know...
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#372 Jun 12 2009 at 5:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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AlphaPendragon wrote:
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Also if you are going to let us jump this time, make it that no jumping inside the city... that is all.

This is an interesting idea after I gave it a moment of thought. I was going to suggest putting a limit on how frequently one could jump, but I think no jumping in town would be at least as good. Make people abide by some gosh darn rules of etiquette, ya know? =P


If you are so concerned about seeing people jumping too much then just hope SE implements a stamina feature like in Diablo 2. When you jump, you lose stamina and when your stamina reaches 0 you can't jump. Not jumping regenerates your stamina.

Still boggles my mind that people are arguing against a jump feature because seeing folks jump would annoy them...
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#373thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 12 2009 at 6:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I know I know
#374 Jun 12 2009 at 6:33 AM Rating: Good
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Some guy above me wrote:
If you are so concerned about seeing people jumping too much then just hope SE implements a stamina feature like in Diablo 2. When you jump, you lose stamina and when your stamina reaches 0 you can't jump. Not jumping regenerates your stamina.


Why even limit it like that? Just make jumping a more animated effect. Jumping has one practical purpose: to get over small obstacles in front of you, right? WoW currently lets people jump straight up, which is the cause for spamming. In FFXIV, make people who jump have an animation where they take a step back, or bend down at the knees for a moment, then leap forward. Keep it on a 1 second non-shared cool down. Now jumping is practical for those little ledges without being spammable. Lesson (from WoW) learned.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 10:34am by Kharmageddon
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#375 Jun 12 2009 at 6:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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NeithanTheWronged wrote:

Still boggles my mind that people are arguing against a jump feature because seeing folks jump would annoy them...


I'm pretty boggled by this as well. Why does it annoy you so much? Seriously, why don't you focus on what you are doing and no what other people are doing?

I'm one of those people who jumps a lot. As I'm running I just hit that spacebar almost without even thinking. I also like to jump off cliffs, to the point where I will steer my character to run up a ramp and jump off it. I just enjoy jumping off things.

I certainly don't stop to think, "Hmm, I am playing an MMO and I wonder if me jumping around a lot is going to annoy that guy named darthhhvaderr99889.. I better stop because his enjoyment of this game is pretty important."

Get over yourselves.
#376thorazinekizzez, Posted: Jun 12 2009 at 6:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Answer is simple
#377 Jun 12 2009 at 6:49 AM Rating: Default
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Some of us would like to have a more "mature" gaming experience, too. So we prefer that SE would make few restrictions to what you can do in game. Things like custom sliders to change your characters appearence (huge boobs and other extremes are just stupid), names such as ClOuD929120 and jump spammers looking dumb are what ruins the experience when you feel like you're playing with 8 year olds.

I would be content with an action button, though. Still I don't think it's quite needed at all.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 4:51pm by Hyanmen
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#378 Jun 12 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:

Some of us would like to have a more "mature" gaming experience, too. So we prefer that SE would make few restrictions to what you can do in game. Things like custom sliders to change your characters appearence (huge boobs and other extremes are just stupid), names such as ClOuD929120 and jump spammers looking dumb are what ruins the experience when you feel like you're playing with 8 year olds.


A more mature game experience? You do realize that there are children playing FFXI as well, it's not an all adult community. I just posted that I am one of those people who likes to jump, and I am 30 years old. So because I like to jump I must have the mentality of an 8 year old?

I'll be very honest, this is what is going to hold XIV back: The stigma it is already carrying. Basically what you want is an XI clone. You don't want more choice, you don't want more features, and you don't want more people enjoying the game.

Saying you don't want to be able to customize your character to be more realistic (what if I actually do have large *******?), no names like ClOuD929120 (because this doesn't exist in XI.... please), and other people in your game world enjoying a feature (No jumping!!! It annoys me and I'm the only one who counts!), is pretty disturbing.

It sounds to me like you are the ones who should stick with your current game. I'll turn it around on you: You want XI onry features, hey go play XI! It will still be there.
#379Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 12 2009 at 7:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes, there's no way SE can take all the immaturity away from their game. The choices they made to restrict players really make it a better experience although it may be hard to notice if you haven't experienced how bad it can really be.
#380 Jun 12 2009 at 7:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:

looking like a ******.
retarded mongoloids in them


I would put more stock in your opinion if you weren't so insulting. You want a mature gaming experience, yet you are exhibiting some of the most childish, bullying behavior known to man.
#381Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 12 2009 at 7:44 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'll call them idiots from now on if that's an issue, then!
#382 Jun 12 2009 at 7:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:

I'll call them idiots from now on if that's an issue, then!


/sigh

I think you missed the point.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what the future reveals. I'd just like a little more choice, and a little more realism. I mean this game boasts having the more realistic look compared to WoW's cartoons, why should it not also have the more realistic feel?
#383Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 12 2009 at 7:56 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yeah, maybe. English isn't my first language, so I tend to use too strong words without thinking it through. Too bad that ruined our argument if that's the case :/
#384 Jun 12 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Answer is simple
It brings up emotions that FFXI will be a WoW clone. Its a very simple feature that when done within the first moments of logging on will set in stone a heavy handed first impression. accurate or not it doesn't matter. The game can play like FF tactics at this point it will still return a true.

Internet forums would be filled with "LoL I CAN JUMP NOW!!! Just play WoW instead LOLOLOLOL"

Based purely on emotional logic it will forever be considered a staple feature in WoW and any MMOG that adopts this feature will instantly gain this stigma. To do so when the feature is not necessary or desired by the core audience of FFXI only tends to drag the fledgling MMO through the mud a little more on those opening days.. Some will be right at home while others will /facepalm and grown.

The entire problem could be avoided simply by doing something new. And if navigation is that much of a problem tell your designers to fix the @#%^ing terrain...
Thats just stupid. Because jumping is in wow if its in ffxiv it will be a wow clone? What about City of Heros you can jump in that game, or Lotro, yep I can jump in Lotro, or Aoc, check jump there too, hmm Warhammer? oh yea thats right I can jump in that too, Vanguard? yea yea theres a jump feature in that game too. Maybe youd feel better if you thought of ffxiv as a Lotro clone because you can jump? Seriously why not demand to remove mana points because its in wow, or remove mounts because they're in wow, or spells thats in wow, lets take out swords they are in wow too!

And you know this game isnt being made for JUST FFXI PLAYERS.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 1:41pm by mezlabor

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 1:43pm by mezlabor
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#385 Jun 12 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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Internet forums would be filled with "LoL I CAN JUMP NOW!!! Just play WoW instead LOLOLOLOL"


I don't get how you got from point A to point B. "I can jump. Therefore, this is a WoW clone." ...what? You could jump in online games LONG before WoW came out.
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#386 Jun 12 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
People like you who get personally offended at the shear notion of having any element of wow in their game are what is wrong with this thread. Why is it that a pretty **** cool feature such as JUMPING is met with hostility?
Jumping is also used as a debuff preventer in certain fights in WoW (Keristrazsa and Hodir come to mind), so I don't see how Square would skip on an opportunity to use something like that. It'd certainly be more practical and less dumb-looking than /kneeling to Odin...

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Classes/Jobs
Lol, people are expecting me to say something to learn from. Ha! Please do not take lessons from WoW and keep putting something to complete uselessness or completely overpowered. I love FFXI Job system, and I think that should stay. If FFXIV has both that job system, and a weapon leveling sytem, then I would be an extremely happy camper
I'd be more worried that the classes used meet their concept goals. If they have to take a direct look at RDM's soulmate, WoW's Paladin class, to get an idea on how to make it front-line viable from the get-go, then by all means.
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#387 Jun 12 2009 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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The only things I want from ffiv are the abilty to solo a bit more and perhaps a way
To be able to experience the storyline solo.

I actually loved having to grind in Japanese groups at 3am.

But that was when I had tons of time to play.

Now with only 2 hours max a night I am only able to do a very
Limitied number of things. I'd love to finish cop but probably won't
Because of the time factor.

IMO the wow story sucks but I love the abilty to level a substantial
Amount and log off with Rested xp.

FFxi did a lot of things right. The jobs were substantial, the music
And art was great and the world really drew you in.

1. I like bop gear. I also like usable quested gear.
2. a better ui. And searchable ah.
3. Instances.
4. Perhaps inital genkei grinds or other types of grinds for the hc
Players.
5. Enough inventory space.
6. Easier crafting.
7. Perhaps a but faster battle system. Although I loved skillchains.
8. Different ways for solo players to get good gear. Maybe not
The best gear but something that would take time.
9. Pvp. Eh it's not really necessary.
10. Basically I just want to experience a fleshed out ff world that
I could solo in and group in. Basically the best of all worlds.
#388 Jun 12 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Default
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Kierk wrote:
The only things I want from ffiv are the abilty to solo a bit more and perhaps a way
To be able to experience the storyline solo.


You mean FFXI ? :D


Quote:
FFxi did a lot of things right. The jobs were substantial, the music
And art was great and the world really drew you in.

1. I like bop gear. I also like usable quested gear.
2. a better ui. And searchable ah.
3. Instances.
4. Perhaps inital genkei grinds or other types of grinds for the hc
Players.
5. Enough inventory space.
6. Easier crafting.
7. Perhaps a but faster battle system. Although I loved skillchains.
8. Different ways for solo players to get good gear. Maybe not
The best gear but something that would take time.
9. Pvp. Eh it's not really necessary.
10. Basically I just want to experience a fleshed out ff world that
I could solo in and group in. Basically the best of all worlds.


1. You have rare/ex gear, how useful is the quested gear in WoW? As far as I know you use it for a few days and replace it so this issue is debatable.
2. Agreed
3. A variety is nice, having both instance and non instanced endgame, the non instanced being raid content, to eliminate the camping.
4. Agreed
5. Agreed
6. As easy as WoW with no benefit in making money from it? No thx.
7. Agreed, but keep skillchains
8. You have to know that to make an encounter for solo players that yields similar gear to those that need 25 is impossible, since there won’t be any point in making raids anymore.
9. Agreed.
10. Agree, but I want to point out that solo vs group/raid content item/achievement /time invested/ have to be taken into account. For example trying to get a relic that takes several year have to have its worth compare to getting a item in a 5 man instance that takes one afternoon, or an item that you can solo quest in 30 min.

What I hope we DONT see is causal people start complaining that they also pay for the game and that they also WANT to have as good gear as for example a relic even though they have only 30 min to play each day.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 6:37pm by Maldavian
#389 Jun 12 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
What I hope we DONT see is causal people start complaining that they also pay for the game and that they also WANT to have as good gear as for example a relic even though they have only 30 min to play each day.


I think this is important for people to understand. If somebody has a limited time to play, of course they still have the right to have fun and there should be content to accommodate them. At the same time though, they need to realize that maybe they will never reach the same pinnacle as the players that have more time to dedicate. Thats not a bad thing, its just a reality.

For that same reason I think having solo play is important, for those times one may have 30 minutes or an hour to kill and yet can still accomplish something. Hopefully though, the appropriate incentive will be there to group when possible. Learning your jobs role and how it interacts with mobs, spells and other jobs is an important aspect from FFXI so to think that anybody would or should level as quickly solo is not realistic or appropriate in my opinion.
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#390 Jun 12 2009 at 5:08 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I'd be more worried that the classes used meet their concept goals. If they have to take a direct look at RDM's soulmate, WoW's Paladin class, to get an idea on how to make it front-line viable from the get-go, then by all means.


You take that back sir! RDM turned out to be an all around amazing job, much better than a dull class like WoWs Paladin.
#391 Jun 12 2009 at 6:53 PM Rating: Default
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2,890 posts
Quote:
And you know this game isnt being made for JUST FFXI PLAYERS.


I hope it would be made for FFXIV PLAYERS!
Read up on and comprehend an open discussion on the concept of emotional logic.
#392 Jun 13 2009 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Jobangles wrote:
Quote:
I'd be more worried that the classes used meet their concept goals. If they have to take a direct look at RDM's soulmate, WoW's Paladin class, to get an idea on how to make it front-line viable from the get-go, then by all means.


You take that back sir! RDM turned out to be an all around amazing job, much better than a dull class like WoWs Paladin.
They're more similar than you'd think, really:

- Both classes failed to meet their concept goals (paladins were used as healers despite being knights in shining armor, RDM became refresh ***** because the devs didn't know what else to do with them).
- Both classes had a lot of self hate (RDM forum flamewars and holy paladins telling retribution paladins that they're useless and they'd be only useful to their raids if they respecced holy comes to mind).
- Both classes have/had melee options that go/went generally unused.
- Both had access to all their spells and abilities without the need to change stances or forms, and had no penalties to steer them in one direction as far as role went.

Being able to solo genbu does not make an amazing class. Not being viable (not good) as melee in the content that matters without the best of the best gear is not the sign of an amazing class, either. ****, melee RDMs can't even level outside of the snail's pace that is campaign (I cancelled my account a week before fields of valor was introduced, so I don't know how that would have turned out). The fact that the class was more valuable to a group healing despite how it was designed simply made it worse. That's the kind of thing I'd like to see corrected, because I was drawn to the magic swordsman aspect of RDM, which turned out to be the weak link in the class' design (understandably so, since good damage + the big spellbook RDM have access to would make it a truly broken class).
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#393 Jun 13 2009 at 12:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:
1. You have rare/ex gear, how useful is the quested gear in WoW? As far as I know you use it for a few days and replace it so this issue is debatable.

Yes, but only because you have leveled up and so require new gear. Quest and drop gear is what the vast majority of players use to reach level cap. It is highly viable to either solo or instance all the way up to level cap in nothing but quested and dropped gear.
Maldavian wrote:
8. You have to know that to make an encounter for solo players that yields similar gear to those that need 25 is impossible, since there won’t be any point in making raids anymore.

That some very constrained thinking. Fighting a boss, whether raid or solo, doesn't have to be the only way to get gear.

It's fully possible to include soloable methods of obtaining high end gear that doesn't harm raiding. Long, difficult quest chains are one way to do it. Expensive crafting and even crafting chains are another way. It all depends on how creative the developers can afford to be.

Edited, Jun 13th 2009 3:35am by Allegory
#394 Jun 13 2009 at 12:56 AM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:

That some very constrained thinking. Fighting a boss, whether raid or solo, doesn't have to be the only way to get gear.

It's fully possible to include soloable methods of obtaining high end gear that doesn't harm raiding. Long, difficult quest chains are one way to do it. Expensive crafting and even crafting chains are another way. It all depends on how creative the developers can afford to be.


Long difficult quest line to get same quality gear as a full raid, tell me one MMO that has that? Again, the point you need to understand is that making a LONG quest line is only a "time sink" and that you can really never make it hard. The mechanism of PvE when it comes down to 1 person against the AI is extremely limited. That is why the rewards for doing anything solo is always sh*tty compared to raids. Also in case of FFXI you need to know that some classes have no fighting abilities, how should they finish their solo able quest line? Or should the quest be the like "talk to his guy”, “bring this from that”, and “go here then there" and so forth, not containing any fighting at all? This will never work.

Crafting extremely good gear you have already in FFXI, the problem is you need to get the parts from raiding content. Again you can’t justify crafting better gear then the effort of collecting 25 men for a raid. If so then the meaning of raiding will disappear.

Trust me, the developers are creative, the problem you seem to miss out on is that they are always calculating the worth of the item based on the effort in obtaining it.


Edited, Jun 13th 2009 4:58am by Maldavian
#395 Jun 13 2009 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
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EVE has that. Of course ALL items in eve are craftable.

Edited, Jun 13th 2009 4:57am by mezlabor
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#396 Jun 13 2009 at 1:00 AM Rating: Default
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572 posts
mezlabor wrote:
EVE has that. Of course ALL items in eve are craftable.

Edited, Jun 13th 2009 4:57am by mezlabor


Even if all equipment is crafted how do you get the parts? Can you get the best part in EVE though solo play, or do you still need raids to obtain them?

Edited, Jun 13th 2009 5:01am by Maldavian
#397 Jul 01 2009 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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One of the things I think WoW nailed was the ways to store items. Your mailbox could store a lot of things, and your bank was very expandable. One thing I'd like to see FFXIV take away from this is less mailbox, more bank.

Have the bank/mog house/whatever start with a good number of slots (lets say 50). Not enough? You can buy new 'tabs' (like WoW's guild tab system) and customize the title of each tab. Each tab would cost gil and get progressively more expensive.

Also, implementing linkshell banks would be a great way to store resources gained from shared conquests. Rare materials, consumables, a shared gil pot, etc.
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#398 Jul 01 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
One of the things I think WoW nailed was the ways to store items. Your mailbox could store a lot of things, and your bank was very expandable. One thing I'd like to see FFXIV take away from this is less mailbox, more bank.


Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is the difference between bank/mailbox and mog house/delivery box?

Also some kind of linkshell bank sounds pretty good, instead of using the leader's mule or something.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 4:07pm by Hyanmen
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#399 Jul 01 2009 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure if this changed, but can you upgrade your mog house box with more bag/item slots?
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#400 Jul 01 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
Jumping is also used as a debuff preventer in certain fights in WoW (Keristrazsa and Hodir come to mind), so I don't see how Square would skip on an opportunity to use something like that. It'd certainly be more practical and less dumb-looking than /kneeling to Odin..

Technically, it wasn't the jumping, it's just movement (since both of those fights revolved around trying to not have your character freeze to death)

However, jumping let you move without really moving, allowing you to focus more on the fight, which is why most people jump a lot during those fights.

/shrug

Quote:
I'd be more worried that the classes used meet their concept goals. If they have to take a direct look at RDM's soulmate, WoW's Paladin class, to get an idea on how to make it front-line viable from the get-go, then by all means.

Um. Traditional RDM (Not the FFXI version) was probably closer to a WoW Enhancement Shaman. A class that flings weak elemental spells, but also hits enemies with their weapons.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 12:47pm by Karelyn
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#401 Jul 01 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm not sure if this changed, but can you upgrade your mog house box with more bag/item slots?


Mog house itself from 50 to 80 spaces.. storage to 80 max, and mog locker (and satchel) to 80. They're all pretty much the same thing.

Why not more than 80 has something to do with the ps2's memory I think.. not an issue with XIV anymore fortunately!
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