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Bring end game PvPFollow

#1 Jun 03 2009 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I played FFXI to lvl 75 monk / ninja. Had a blast doing so until i picked up World of Warcraft and it totally blew FFXI out of the water with end game material. The PvP system (Arena 2v2 3v3 5v5) and battle grounds is what keeps me going. When i pick up this game next year it should have some of the old mechanics but it really needs some PvP or it is not goign to get the attention it deserves. Any ideas or predictions for some pvp based ideas in the new FFXI?
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#2 Jun 03 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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I agree, it really needs PvP and a faster pace. Tanaka said this would co-exist with FFXI. I think that's hinting at the possibility of such a change. Anyone who still wants to play PvE only with slower pace can do so in FFXI.
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#3 Jun 03 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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It needs both but endgame pve and pvp need to be in here. Similar to the WoW playign field with a slower pace and a better grouping system.
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#4 Jun 03 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thirded, but make the PVP different from WOW, that way actually using your brain for it would be a great idea, unlike WoW.
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#5 Jun 03 2009 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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Gladiator arena 2400+ takes lots of coordination and i think they should also incorporate the coordination / synergy with jobs and teams.
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#6 Jun 03 2009 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Any End-Game PvP (ie. Arena-style, etc) needs to be seperated from the main PvE aspect of the game to avoid the balance issues WoW has. LotRO had the right idea with poor interest focus in how they did MPvP...the idea of seperating the mechanics from the base PvE portion is ingenius. Too often (especially now currently in WoW), the balancing becomes so chaotic that simple changes spawn hundreds (if not thousands) of problems in a ripple effect that takes months of patches to iron out and clear up.

Given SE's history of patching frequency with FFXI, merged PvP and PvE aspects could be the worst decision they could make, and possibly the single "pitfall" that could kill a new MMO. PvP was poor in FFXI, and didn't even start to show signs of improvement until very very late in the games current life.
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#7 Jun 03 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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If they do make a PVP in 14, we need it so you can just jump in and start.. or have somekinda "wilderness area" where it's free for all pvp... no more registering, waiting.. and wait? we have to score points and.. uhg...
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#8 Jun 03 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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I personally do not want PvP because that involves many balancing issues and constant nerfs. SE please concentrate on making a balance PvE game!
#9 Jun 03 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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Agreed the mechanics do need be kept seperate from pve and pvp. The PvE can become somewhat tedious and repetitive such as it did in FFXI. Even in WoW i find myself dosing during raids. FFxi encounters are much better but require much time and waiting to even "claim the mob". If they somehow managed to work out the bugs between PvE and PvP they could have a game that can compete with WoW.
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#10 Jun 03 2009 at 9:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Ryneguy wrote:
LotRO had the right idea with poor interest focus in how they did MPvP...the idea of seperating the mechanics from the base PvE portion is ingenius.

It was also a terrible idea that is horrendously poorly executed. Monsters were incredibly boring to play, because they lacked the development of player classes. They had about 5 abilities they could use and very basic progression. My friend was a guardian. Basically nothing in MvP could kill him and he couldn't kill anything. Hunters could kill, but they could also just run away. Most of MvP was about running away.

WoW PvP has some problems, but it is also probably the best MMORPG PvP system in existence.
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Thirded, but make the PVP different from WOW, that way actually using your brain for it would be a great idea, unlike WoW.

So very, very ignorant and biased.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 12:04pm by Allegory
#11 Jun 03 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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I am more in favor an arena or some sort of dedicated area for PvP, then open PvP. Open PvP will bad. I can understand people who want PvP, and I play PvP games as FPS. But I do not want to walk out of town and suddenly get attacked by a bunch of asshats.

Controlled / optional PVP = good
Open PVP = bad
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#12 Jun 03 2009 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Without something besides PvE tedious gameplay this game will fall off like all the other MMO's. The reason why WoW does so well is because it caters to all of the player base. Not just the raiders. Not just the PVPERS. Not just the casuals. All of them can succeed and have a fun time. In order to be succesful i think FFXI needs to do this also. Not just the hardcore 8 hour a day PvE addicts.
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#13 Jun 03 2009 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Ryneguy wrote:
LotRO had the right idea with poor interest focus in how they did MPvP...the idea of seperating the mechanics from the base PvE portion is ingenius.

It was also a terrible idea that is horrendously poorly executed. Monsters were incredibly boring to play, because they lacked the development of player classes. They had about 5 abilities they could use and very basic progression. My friend was a guardian. Basically nothing in MvP could kill him and he couldn't kill anything. Hunters could kill, but they could also just run away. Most of MvP was about running away.

WoW PvP has some problems, but it is also probably the best MMORPG PvP system in existence.
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Thirded, but make the PVP different from WOW, that way actually using your brain for it would be a great idea, unlike WoW.

So very, very ignorant and biased.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 12:04pm by Allegory


Allegory, one of the reasons you don't see any of us in WoW is because we despise the game, the way PVE works and particularly the way PVP works. For PVP to cater to us it must be implemented differently and not be about e-peen bashing mostly, all we are asking is an even better system than WoW's, a very different one, by the way.
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#14 Jun 03 2009 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I only want to see PvP in XIV if changes made caused by balancing issues that only apply within PvP do not change my gameplay in PvE content.

Nothing more stupid when you level a job, gear it ok and it gets rentered useless cause of some "whiney threads" in the PvP forum.

Cheers,
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#15 Jun 03 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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An arena rating system or battleground rating system where you have to "queue or sign" up to play would be awsome with rewards designed for pvp and pvp only. Even only usuable in pvp is an idea. Something is needed to push this game over the edge. It can still be a PvE based game, but it needs some more options.
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#16 Jun 03 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
PvP is a terrible idea. What happens when a certain job/class can totally demolish another one. Then the one who got beaten will ***** and complain nonstop until se either buffs or nerfs either one of the jobs. This goes on for a year or 2 until SE just says fck it and makes all classes the same.

No pvp is one of the many reasons i play ffxi.
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#17 Jun 03 2009 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Ballista is freaking awesome, Play it more and you'll get addicted.

Another sport like PvP system (like ballista) would be great imo, maybe just adding some slightly better rewards.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 5:13pm by Demonviper
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#18 Jun 03 2009 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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THey are in this for the money not the small % of players who only enjoy hardcore PVE. If they could manage to keep them sepereate and concrete differences in PVP and PVE; such as different abilities / gear / balencing in PvP. This would allow more of a player base while still allowing the PvE content that everyone likes.
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#19 Jun 03 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
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OmegaTyrant wrote:
Allegory, one of the reasons you don't see any of us in WoW is because we despise the game, the way PVE works and particularly the way PVP works. For PVP to cater to us it must be implemented differently and not be about e-peen bashing mostly, all we are asking is an even better system than WoW's, a very different one, by the way.

That's nice, but it doesn't in any way make your comment about WoW pvp being brainless any less ignorant.
#20 Jun 03 2009 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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For those who don't want anything but PVE, there will still be good ol' FFXI. But, there is nothing bad with some well implemented PVP system in an all new game. If it sucks, I am sure we will all concede SE should never again try it. But the whole idea of having different powers for the PVP part of the game seems nice to me. Like, I don't know you enter the PVP arena or zone and the game and battle systems are changed a bit to balance out jobs for PVP.
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#21 Jun 03 2009 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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OmegaTyrant wrote:
For those who don't want anything but PVE, there will still be good ol' FFXI. But, there is nothing bad with some well implemented PVP system in an all new game. If it sucks, I am sure we will all concede SE should never again try it. But the whole idea of having different powers for the PVP part of the game seems nice to me. Like, I don't know you enter the PVP arena or zone and the game and battle systems are changed a bit to balance out jobs for PVP.

I just don't want to be nerfed because some whiners are complaining how they can't beat X class because they are too overpowered.
#22 Jun 03 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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Yes, they're probably in it for the money, but a good chunk of their player base is Japanese... people who have something a lot of American PVPers lack, respect. The last thing they want is to see a bunch of Americans ganking people nonstop to PvP level. FFA, doubtful. Something like Ballista, more likely.
#23 Jun 03 2009 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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S-E has never nerfed the abilities of a job outside of PvP to balance the job in ballista. They ajusted the amount of damage weaponskills & spells do , but only in ballista.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 5:23pm by Demonviper
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#24 Jun 03 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Default
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But I do not want to walk out of town and suddenly get attacked by a bunch of asshats.

I do. Just grab a couple of asshats from your town and defeat said asshats.

People keep talking about balance issues.. if a WHM loses to a MNK, will anyone be suprised? Do we need a balance patch? No.. it's a healer getting whomped by a dps.
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#25 Jun 03 2009 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Japanese... people who have something a lot of American PVPers lack, respect.


lol, ok cultural expert. I've played many MMOs with and without PvP and it's very rare that some "PvPer" did anything disrespectful to me. Attacking someone on a PvP server isn't disrespectful.
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#26 Jun 03 2009 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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If you read my earlier posts above you would relize that "asshats ganking outside of the city" WOULD NOT HAPPEN. In order to pvp you would need to queue up or sign up at a said place to enter another zone for pvp so keep those comments out of this thread.
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#27 Jun 03 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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If you're going to nerf things for PvP, nerf everything equally.

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#28 Jun 03 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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THey are in this for the money not the small % of players who only enjoy hardcore PVE. If they could manage to keep them sepereate and concrete differences in PVP and PVE; such as different abilities / gear / balencing in PvP.


Please select your server:
PvP: Remora
PvP: Leviathan
PvE: Lakshmi
PvE: Shiva
PvP: Hades

How hard is that?
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#29 Jun 03 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Default
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Focus PvE, leave PvP to western MMO's.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 7:32pm by Hyanmen
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#30 Jun 03 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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GuardianFaith wrote:
Please select your server:
PvP: Remora
PvP: Leviathan
PvE: Lakshmi
PvE: Shiva
PvP: Hades

How hard is that?

But if they have a lot of servers I'll have to scroll down to the PvE ones, and scrolling is hard!
#31 Jun 03 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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It doesn't take a cultural expert to recognize that a lot of Americans in FFA PvP games are complete tools. Have you played any before?

Imagine, you spend two hours getting to X location to finish so-and-so quest only to be killed at the last minute by people who are just bored. You would probably consider that ok. I would not. Nor would any of my Japanese friends.
#32 Jun 03 2009 at 9:35 AM Rating: Default
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Your oblivious to the point intended. FFXI is a pve based game and should stay pve based. But players should have the option to make a 2v2 3v3 or 5v5 team and queue up and climb higher to play better opponents for usuable gear only in pvp. Also Battlegrounds (ballistas) should offer the same. No ganking or camping invovled. Only time you can touch another player is inside the zones. Making a concrete difference between Pve and PvP. Which would draw in a much bigger player base. And give something to do at the lvl cap other than wait hours on spawns.
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#33 Jun 03 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Without some sort of variety this game will end up repetitive and tedious just like FFXI. Its why its not even a top 5 MMO. It has no other options.
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#34 Jun 03 2009 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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GuardianFaith wrote:
Quote:
THey are in this for the money not the small % of players who only enjoy hardcore PVE. If they could manage to keep them sepereate and concrete differences in PVP and PVE; such as different abilities / gear / balencing in PvP.


Please select your server:
PvP: Remora
PvP: Leviathan
PvE: Lakshmi
PvE: Shiva
PvP: Hades

How hard is that?


Not very hard but it doesn't solve the problem of changes to game-mechanics because of some whiny peeps that play job x and cannot beat job y in PvP.

If SE can keep PvE and PvP enough apart that this 2 aspects of the game doesn't ruin each other, kudo's to SE ^^

cheers,
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#35 Jun 03 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Default
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I totally agree with Fro. If they can do this and keep them seperate this could be one of the Best MMO's if they correct their past mistakes.
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#36 Jun 03 2009 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Callipho wrote:
It doesn't take a cultural expert to recognize that a lot of Americans in FFA PvP games are complete tools. Have you played any before?

Imagine, you spend two hours getting to X location to finish so-and-so quest only to be killed at the last minute by people who are just bored. You would probably consider that ok. I would not. Nor would any of my Japanese friends.

You really don't know what you're talking about. The most popular Asian MMOs, such as Lineage, involve FFA killing. Most Western MMOs limit PvP, like Lotro, Warhammer, and WoW to some sort of faction system. Asians tend to be even more hard core about it, and in many of their games when you die in PvP you drop your inventory or equipment and/or lose exp.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 12:47pm by Allegory
#37 Jun 03 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Default
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Your oblivious to the point intended. FFXI is a pve based game and should stay pve based. But players should have the option to make a 2v2 3v3 or 5v5 team and queue up and climb higher to play better opponents for usuable gear only in pvp. Also Battlegrounds (ballistas) should offer the same

ok ok, I get what you're saying. I honestly really enjoy world PvP, but without "factions", I don't really see how it would happen anyway. I definitely don't want FF14 to be a WoW clone either. Having an honest and pure arena set up would be awesome. I think your idea is exactly what they'll do in fact.
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#38 Jun 03 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd like to see some sort of PvP in XIV. XI's PvP was badly implemented and just downright awkward. I'd love to have some consensual PvP in the form of an arena where I can just casually take on a friend for fun. It should be made so that I can go from challenging a friend to a match to winning said match within half an hour. Maybe there could be some sort of staking before the match to add a competitive edge as well.
#39 Jun 03 2009 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory, did you just group all of Asia together? I didn't say Korean, I said Japanese.
#40 Jun 03 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
I think PVP only works in game when it's omnipresent and the game is designed around it, like EVE. Otherwise it has to be kept so separate as to be an almost different game.
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#41 Jun 03 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Default
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Callipho wrote:
Allegory, did you just group all of Asia together? I didn't say Korean, I said Japanese.

That's nice, but it doesn't matter. There's a much greater difference between western MMORPGs like WoW and eastern ones like FFXI than there is between a Chinese MMORPG like ZT Online and a Korean MMORPG like Lineage 2.

You made a comment about Americans in FFA pvp games being tools, but FFA pvp is far, far more common in Asian, including Japanese, MMORPGs. Can you even name a Western MMORPG with FFA PvP? I'll wait for you to google.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 1:24pm by Allegory
#42 Jun 03 2009 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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AoC, close enough.

Edit - now name that Japanese one for me. I'll wait for you to google it.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 2:29pm by Callipho
#43 Jun 03 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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You're missing the point entirely. You do realize that right? Asian players are far, far more tolerant of pvp griefing than Western players.
#44 Jun 03 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I think that they will introduce some pvp. I don't think it will give a reward even close to the reward obtained from high end PVE though.

How they are going to do that without constant nerfs and buffs is yet to be seen.
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#45 Jun 03 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Default
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gtfo callipho. you've established your opinion of american values, go listen to The Vapors some more.
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#46 Jun 03 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Whoa there, I'm not bashing American values. I'm bashing the average person I've run into in American PvP-centric games. FFXI was a welcome respite from that.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 2:48pm by Callipho
#47 Jun 03 2009 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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PvP can e a great deal of fun. History is showing us that it can't be the focus of a widely successful MMO. PvP in WoW is taking a horrible beating right now. AoC took a beating in its subscriber base because the PvE was limited and the PvP was broken right out of the box.

I think that whether or not a larger emphasis on PvP in FFXIV compared to FFXI would be workable would depend entirely on the combat system of FFXIV and/or whether or not SE is willing to segregate combat mechanics so that what is happening in PvP doesn't impact the PvE game. As others have mentioned here...there are few things worse than settling into a groove in the PvE area of a game only to find out that your class is scheduled for heavy nerfs based on what is happening in the PvP end of things. That's bad mojo and doesn't take into account that there are a great many MMO players who have little/no interest in PvP. If it's there and it's accessible, most people will at least give it a try to see what it's about or as just another layer of diversity added to the game they enjoy. When those players suddenly read that their dps is getting nerfed, or their effective mana pools, or their defensive options...all to account for an imbalance in PvP...it tends to produce disgruntled players.
#48 Jun 03 2009 at 11:07 AM Rating: Default
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Callipho wrote:
Whoa there, I'm not bashing American values. I'm bashing the average person I've run into in American PvP-centric games. FFXI was a welcome respite from that.

Either you've been incredibly unlucky in American PvP games or you're exaggerating your experiences.

I have played WoW on a pvp server for two years (and FFXI for two years as well to balance that out) as well as Warhammer Online, which both were very pvp centric games. Ganking was never a problem for me. Ganking is rarely a problem for anyone, because it is so easily avoidable. Wiping in WoW isntances, group wipes in FFXI parties, and accidentally aggroing an extra mob while solo questing all happened far more often than being inconvenienced by ganks.

If you don't want to get ganked then there are a few simple things you can do to avoid it.
1. Level in your own territory or near allies. It's highly unlikely that you'll get gank by a Windurst person if you level in West Ronfaure.

2. Level with friends. You're less likely to get ganked in a group than you are alone. In addition you'll probably have more fun playing the game with other people than by yourself.

3. Don't have tunnel vision. Keep an eye out for enemies and look around you while you play. You should be doing this anyway to make sure a mob doesn't spawn next to you in a fight and aggro.

4. If you do get ganked don't respawn immediately next to the ganker. No one can camp you; you can only volunteer to be camped. You volunteer to be camped by respawning as quickly as possible right next to the ganker or in the same area you were killed. If you died because mobs were spawning too fast around you would you go back to the same area and fight there again?

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 2:13pm by Allegory
#49 Jun 03 2009 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm generally pretty unlucky so I'll pick that option. My worst experiences were in AoC... But maybe the system was just set up so poorly that it encouraged regular ganking.


Ok - back to live blog.
#50 Jun 03 2009 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
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PvP could be ok if it was in an arena type setting, but please dont forget this is a Final Fantasy. It will and should be in keeping with past FF titles. I dont think there will be much focus on PvP (that is of course; just a guess). The only exception would be if they were going for huge market share.

I think SE will stick to what it knows, PvE. SE has found a nice little niche with FFXI and will proabably expand on that and improve (hopefully with some form of PvP that works for people). Will a PvP system in FFXIV take players away from WoW? I would say probably not, and I believe SE would look into this through marketing research. They will probably try to have something, but will ultimately try to appease their base which is PvE.
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#51 Jun 03 2009 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
6 posts
The problem is that balancing classes to fit specific roles in PvE, often imbalances PvP and vice versa. Having it so that all classes are balanced in PvP and PvE is almost impossible.


But! I have a solution.

FFXIV will only have one class. And the level cap is 1. And the only weapon anyone can use is A Wooden Stick of Doom. No duel wielding, sorry. No shields, sorry. Must keep it equal.


:)
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