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#1 Jun 03 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Default
FFXIV is not going to "be like WoW," "take a leaf out of WoW's book," "be a casual MMO," or any other of the stupid nonsense you have been trolling this forum with. It will not be a PvP-centric game, and I'll honestly be very, very surprised if they introduce anything more rewarding then Ballista.

The "casual" aspects of the game discussed at today's Q&A are almost certainly aspects of FFXI that were recently added, but were added far too late to make a difference. Level Sync, Treasure Caskets, and (most of all) Fields of Valor will probably make an appearance of some form in FFXIV. The only one I could see SE excluding, at least on release, is Level Sync, so that certain ways to abuse the system for ridiculous leveling speeds don't come to light in this new game.

This is not Final Fantasy XI, or related to Final Fantasy XI in any way, shape or form.

However, try to keep in mind that it is still a FINAL FANTASY GAME. The developers explicitly stated in the Q&A session that it would be PvE and story based. There is no longer any need for any of you to run around this forum spouting about how awesome WoW is. It's not going to fly with the FFXI community, since the large majority of that community hates WoW for the same reasons you love it.

If you're looking for another WoW clone, keep looking.

If you're looking for a new MMO likely to heavily compete with WoW (so long as SE doesn't suddenly get completely retarded - things are looking good so far), then you're in the right place.
#2 Jun 03 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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The devs also said in the q and a they are targeting a more casual gamer, and that there would be content for casual and solo gamers.

I played WoW I don't want FFXIV to be WoW. Why would I? I dont play WoW anymore it bores me. But WoW did do some things well that se could stand to learn from. WoW also did some things not so well and SE should learn from that too.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 6:35pm by mezlabor

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 6:36pm by mezlabor
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#3 Jun 03 2009 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
Actually I think they're very much taking a leaf out of WoW's book. Its not a bad thing, I think that leaf was already taken a long time ago with the more solo and casual content added to FFXI.

I know a lot of FF fans worry that it will become another WoW if its made more casual, or it will hurt the community by catering to a more casual crowd, and I don't think people should worry about that. They're not taking the whole book, and I think we'll see its still very much a FF game with beautiful graphics and that special FF something.
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#4 Jun 03 2009 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
FFXIV is not going to "be like WoW," "take a leaf out of WoW's book," "be a casual MMO," or any other of the stupid nonsense you have been trolling this forum with.

On the contrary:
Quote:
12:01 Q: What influence have games like World of WarCraft have on the development of FFXIV?
12:02 A: As with WoW, we want to aim a bit for the casual user. However, we don't want to make a copy of WoW. We believe we will have things that are unique and will stand out from that game.
12:02 Q: Will combat be more action oriented or turn-based?
12:02 A: We cannot talk about the battle system at this time.
12:03 Q: FFXI has evolved a lot over the years, especially in the areas of player accessibility and the ability to solo. Will you carry over features like level sync and other features to FFXIV?
12:04 A: Yes. All of the knowledge and experience we gained from FFXI will be used in the development of FFXIV. At the launch, we intend to have content for solo players as well as large-scale battles. We want a wide-variety from the start.


So no, it will not be FFXIWoWXIV.. but they are clearly stating that solo/casual gaming will be incorporated into this game.



Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 3:41pm by GuardianFaith
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#5 Jun 03 2009 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
How on earth do you know what FFXIV will be like, anyways? From one or two sentences from a liveblog? Just give it a rest till we all can learn more.
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#6 Jun 03 2009 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Actually we don't know what FFXIV will be like but we do know that it will be more casually based, so I think there's a few small opinions we can make off that, can't we? So yeah, those two sentences? They convey information.
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#7 Jun 03 2009 at 2:46 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
The devs also said in the q and a they are targeting a more casual gamer, and that there would be content for casual and solo gamers.

I played wow I dont want ffxiv to be WoW Why would I I dont play WoW anymore it bores me. but WoW did do somethings well that se could stand to learn from. WoW also did some things not so well and SE should learn from that too.


The devs HAVE learned from WoW.

Campaign, Fields of Valor, Treasure Caskets, Level Sync, and Assaults are all good examples of just how much they've learned from WoW. However, it was too little too late. With adjustments to the job system (like eliminating support jobs and extra jobs) and the implementation of these features (or something similar) a lot of the grinding in the game is relieved, which makes the game a lot more attractive to people who are more interested in actual content of a game as opposed to "which grind sucks less?"

A lot of people play WoW because the grind is stupid easy, even though the game offers little to no real content. Take a mediocre grind and attach it with a ton of content and it becomes a lot more attractive to people looking at the game objectively.
#8 Jun 03 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Default
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Your basically saying SE is NOT going to compete with WoW which is B.S., especially since considering how strong FFXI has been its in one of the best positions to compete with WoW. (well, they are still far from WoW but better compared to other mmorpgs).
They also said they would be providing content for ALL types of players.
PvP never caught on in FF11 not because the player base doesn't want it but because it came too late, and too unorganized. Hopefully, they have learned from their mistakes.
Also its was apparent, when asked if they learned from WoW, that they were competeing from them. They said they are targeting the casual players, but said that FFXI would be different.
Its obvious the casual players enjoy PvP since WoW has 11 million players, so I be shocked if theres not any PvP in this game.
They can have PvP and still be really different from WoW. Just like WoW PvE too. Infact WoW players typically enjoy doing both, its just the PvP is more popular with the casual crowd, perhaps for its easy to pick up and go at it.

I hope SE learns three things from WoW:

1. Questing, the few quests in FF11 were either extremely boring or very hard. I dont always want to level grind it be nice to get some REAL exp from quests and be a viable way for some leveling up. Or at least have the BCNMs drop EXP that actually reflect the time and effort that went into fighting them. (If they include anything like BCNMs in this game). So what im really asking for? More than one way to level, its not asking for much.

2. PvP is fun, and should have some sort of version in FFXIV it doesn't have to be the focus of the game but it should be easily accessible unlike 11 and feature some sort of basic modes and be swift and fast. Then maybe build on it if it gets popular.

3. No zonning (i hope to god we hear something about this soon, to me this should've been one of the questions asked) Zonning feels so archaic now, and I remember age of conan was critiqued for including this in its modern mmorpg. Seamlessness really does improve play. Also zones were too big in FFXIV entire zones with nothing to do in them except take forever to get anywhere, travel time really needs to be reduced. Most of the time things were hard only because it took forever to get anywhere.

#9 Jun 03 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Actually we don't know what FFXIV will be like but we do know that it will be more casually based, so I think there's a few small opinions we can make off that, can't we? So yeah, those two sentences? They convey information.

They don't mean anything. What developers intend and what actually occurs can often be very different. While it's fine to speculate that the game might be a certain way because of such statements, it is ridiculous to assert that the game will be a certain way because of such statements.
#10 Jun 03 2009 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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zuogehaomeng wrote:
Your basically saying SE is NOT going to compete with WoW which is B.S., especially since considering how strong FFXI has been its in one of the best positions to compete with WoW. (well, they are still far from WoW but better compared to other mmorpgs).

Not really. Warhammer is by far WoW's closest competitor in terms of the type of game offered. AoC is a flop, but tried to get in on the pvp crowd. Lotro has a very similar PvE feel to WoW.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 5:53pm by Allegory
#11 Jun 03 2009 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
Allegory wrote:
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Actually we don't know what FFXIV will be like but we do know that it will be more casually based, so I think there's a few small opinions we can make off that, can't we? So yeah, those two sentences? They convey information.

They don't mean anything. What developers intend and what actually occurs can often be very different. While it's fine to speculate that the game might be a certain way because of such statements, it is ridiculous to assert that the game will be a certain way because of such statements.


Yeah they could cancel the game or change their minds and make the only race 'chocobo' too, but we have to go off what we know, even though *anything* is subject to change, it doesn't mean that's not the plan for now.
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#12 Jun 03 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I want to see them incorporate the content into the grind the way WoW does but with classic FF style and substance. I DONT want to another wow end game progression tho. I hate how all the old endgame stuff becomes obsolete with every expansion.
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#13 Jun 03 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Yeah they could cancel the game or change their minds and make the only race 'chocobo' too, but we have to go off what we know, even though *anything* is subject to change, it doesn't mean that's not the plan for now.

While you're right, that isn't what I'm getting at.

I'm not asserting that the developers will intend the game to be casual, and then later change their minds and intend for it to be hard core. I'm asserting that developers often don't know how the systems they design will play out. They could intend for the game to be casual, but the systems they create could work out in unforseen ways and actually become hardcore. This happens all the time in game design, and especially MMORPGs. AoC intended for their combat to be more interesting than the simple selection systems most MMORPGS used, but it turned out to be exactly the same and completely uninteresting.
#14 Jun 03 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
How on earth do you know what FFXIV will be like, anyways? From one or two sentences from a liveblog? Just give it a rest till we all can learn more.


SE has set themselves up to easily make the best MMO we've ever seen.

They announced adjustments to the job system:

1. Taking away the ability to have more then one class on a single character would be absolutely retarded. Common sense dictates that that feature will remain.

2. The Support Job feature. It's unlikely Subjobs will return for FFXIV. It adds to the grind, and pushes new players away from the game along with the...

3. Extra Job System. It, like the subjob system, adds to the grind and pushes new players away. How?


Newb1 signs up for FFXIV, excited to get to play as a BRD. However, he discovers he must begin as one of six classes, none of which is BRD. He does his research and discovers to play as a BRD, he has to level BLM to 15 and WHM to 30 to simply begin playing BRD, and will need to take BLM to 18 and WHM to 37 before he finishes leveling BRD. It's a lot of work, and I really don't see either feature returning.

Aside from the grinding, Subjobs create a huge lack of balance in FFXI (sup/NIN).

#15 Jun 03 2009 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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TanthalassQuetz wrote:
SE has set themselves up to easily make the best MMO we've ever seen.

That is far, far too optimistic.
#16 Jun 03 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Your two other accounts were muted for the previous hostile thread creation. Since you have opted to disregard this, allow me to mute any that you make from here on out.
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#17 Jun 03 2009 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think part of the fun between now and the retail release of FFXIV will be watching this particular corner of ZAM evolve. I wonder how long it will be (if ever) before current FFXI players realize that this isn't their forum, and that FFXIV isn't an FFXI expansion...it's a whole new game with limitless options and possibilities for SE to start fresh and make a game that is truly awesome with lasting appeal for the full spectrum of MMO gamers.

I somehow doubt there will ever be a lasting consensus that just because someone who doesn't currently play FFXI comes here with ideas and thoughts based on what they like about other MMOs doesn't automatically mean they are "trolling". I played FFXI from NA release until about halfway through the ToAU content cycle. I still remember the absolute thrill it was to step out of Bastok to S. Gustaberg for the first time; the music, the atmosphere...looking back it was really nothing awe inspiring but that didn't matter...it was COOL. That's the kind of thing I'm hoping they can preserve and continue with FFXIV. Feed me FF lore in heaping spoonfuls and I'll be content; wrap it in an engrossing game packed with options and diversity and I'll be ecstatic. Slap me in the face with another 2 year grind and I'll be canceling my subscription.

There have been altogether too many MMOs that have come out since FFXI was released to suggest in any way that there aren't a number of things that can be "borrowed" from other MMOs and incorporated in FFXIV to make it a welcome improvement on FFXI.

It's interesting, however, that the folks who seem offended at the notion of non- (or ex-) FFXI players "trolling" "their" forum so closely resemble the hardcore elitists in other MMOs. No, FFXI doesn't have a corner on the hardcore elitist market; it's just that a lot of other MMOs have since come to realize that there has to be more to a game than what will satisfy the masochistic urges of the truly hardcore.
#18 Jun 03 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
He's being definitive from a source thats maybe a few sentences long, emphatically saying FFXIV will be like this and will have this and not that. Unless he is precognitive, he honestly has no idea what will make it into the final build, so its foolish to say what exactly it will be like beyond generalities.
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#19 Jun 03 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Some of you anti-wow people are crazy. I mean seriously...my mind is boggled at how inane some of your arguments are. The most popular right now seems to be "I don't want FFXIV to be WoW." Who said it should be WoW? NOBODY. Those that think FFXIV should include aspects of WoW simply wish the game to be better than FFXI by incorporating the good from both games. FFXI is probably my favorite MMO but it has major flaws that the great majority of people wish left out in FFXIV. Many of these flaws don't exist in WoW. Take the good from WoW and the good from FFXI and make FFXIV. There's no need to flame WoW because it's "too casual". Sure, leveling is way easy but have you personally entered every single raid, beat every single boss and completed every single achievement? I doubt it because those are actually quite hard to do unless your guild is very hardcore. In fact, I suspect that the majority of you have never even entered a raid because you're stuck on your high horse of "wow is too casual" (read, I'm too uber for wow) or "wow is full of noobs and children" (read, I'm too awesome to grace wow with my presense) and so don't bother. The sad truth is you people are too full of yourselves to realize that what you are doing in FFXI (grinding to level, grinding to get gear, grinding to craft, grinding to...grind) is in fact no harder and takes no more skill than what others do in WoW...it just takes longer.

In no way am I trying to insult the ordinary FFXI player, I played it myself and loved the grind but I also played WoW and loved the ease of leveling and the difficulty of endgame raids. I don't play any MMO now because none interest me. Blending the story and importance placed on parties and leveling (read, the journey) of FFXI with the simple design, ease of play and fun of WoW and you'll have not only a good game but a great game.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 5:10pm by Yogtheterrible
#20 Jun 03 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yogtheterrible wrote:

Some of you anti-wow people are crazy. I mean seriously...my mind is boggled at how inane some of your arguments are. The most popular right now seems to be "I don't want FFXIV to be WoW." Who said it should be WoW? NOBODY. Those that think FFXIV should include aspects of WoW simply wish the game to be better than FFXI by incorporating the good from both games. FFXI is probably my favorite MMO but it has major flaws that the great majority of people wish left out in FFXIV. Many of these flaws don't exist in WoW. Take the good from WoW and the good from FFXI and make FFXIV. There's no need to flame WoW because it's "too casual". Sure, leveling is way easy but have you personally entered every single raid, beat every single boss and completed every single achievement? I doubt it because those are actually quite hard to do unless your guild is very hardcore. In fact, I suspect that the majority of you have never even entered a raid because you're stuck on your high horse of "wow is too casual" (read, I'm too uber for wow) or "wow is full of noobs and children" (read, I'm too awesome to grace wow with my presense) and so don't bother. The sad truth is you people are too full of yourselves to realize that what you are doing in FFXI (grinding to level, grinding to get gear, grinding to craft, grinding to...grind) is in fact no harder and takes no more skill than what others do in WoW...it just takes longer.

In no way am I trying to insult the ordinary FFXI play, I played it myself and loved the grind but I also played WoW and loved the ease of leveling and the difficulty of endgame raids. I don't play any MMO now because none interest me. Blending the story and importance placed on parties and leveling (read, the journey) of FFXI with the simple design, ease of play and fun of WoW and you'll have not only a good game but a great game.


This is my take on the matter as well. I'm a big time Final Fantasy fan, in fact I am one of the few who probably still owns an actual in the box mint condition copy of the original Nes game... But I also have an appreciation for other games, and that includes WoW. The intolerance that some of you display is pretty disturbing.

Nobody wants a WoW clone, I mean why clone a game that already exists? What we want to know basically is: Will we be able to pick up this game for a couple hours on a weeknight and feel like we accomplished something when we turn it off, or should we just resign ourselves to waiting hours on end for monster pops, party invites, and JP midnight because THAT'S FINAL FANTASY AND FINAL FANTASY IS > WoW!



Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 8:04pm by Torrence
#21 Jun 03 2009 at 9:06 PM Rating: Default
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Honestly I'm sick of everyone putting WoW on a pedestal and claiming it doesn't stink. Is WoW popular? Sure, alot of first time MMORPG play it without know what a MMO is. It has a huge advertisement campaign. It offers a free trail of the entire game to getting people on the fence to play it.

Does being popular make it a good game? Not in my opinion. I don't like the fact you can solo all the way to 80 without any contact or interaction with anyone else. I hate the way the story is told and don't even both to read the boring quest text as to why they need 10 goose livers. I dislike how the game is so casual friendly until you hit end game then it's 6 hour dungeon raids. Sure they have 2 or 3 dungeon that are less than an hour but you'll never get a complete armor set that way.

As for the WoW community as a whole? Really dislike. When I played FFXI I meet alot of people I liked to pt with and just chat with. Alot of good people in my social LS that I still talk to after 6 years. I haven't meet one person in WoW that I can say the same about. Most people I did instance dungeons with I would never ever want to play with again.

Bottom line, 11 million people playing and 8 million of them are just asshats.

Give me the FFXI community with forced pt anyday.
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#22 Jun 03 2009 at 9:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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dyvidd wrote:
Honestly I'm sick of everyone putting WoW on a pedestal and claiming it doesn't stink. Is WoW popular? Sure, alot of first time MMORPG play it without know what a MMO is. It has a huge advertisement campaign. It offers a free trail of the entire game to getting people on the fence to play it.


Oddly enough, it seems like the majority of people putting WoW on a pedestal are the defensive FFXI folks who feel compelled to put it on a pedestal and then try to knock it off. Maybe I've missed something, but the majority of people siting the mechanics/features of other games (WoW or not) are being pretty objective about it. Seems to me like it's mostly the FFXI folks getting butthurt at the suggestion that other games did certain things better than FFXI. I don't think it should have to become about which is the better game, but nobody in their right mind could suggest that FFXI is the pinnacle of MMO perfection, which opens the door to comparison with other MMOs.

If it really bothers you that much, I'd suggest that maybe you avoid this corner of ZAM for a little while...these aren't the FFXI boards, and it's not just FFXI players that are excited and optimistic about SE's recently announced offering to the MMO world.

Quote:
Does being popular make it a good game? Not in my opinion. I don't like the fact you can solo all the way to 80 without any contact or interaction with anyone else. I hate the way the story is told and don't even both to read the boring quest text as to why they need 10 goose livers. I dislike how the game is so casual friendly until you hit end game then it's 6 hour dungeon raids. Sure they have 2 or 3 dungeon that are less than an hour but you'll never get a complete armor set that way.


Unless the group you're with is fundamentally incompetent, very few of the dozens of WoW 5-man instances take longer than an hour to complete. Many of them can be done quite easily in 30-40 minutes. A single raid in WoW can be worked on over the course of a week before it resets. That means the super hardcore folks can go in and roflstomp farm content in one night and take the rest of the week off for raiding, and the more casual folks can go in for a couple of hours over the span of 1/2/3/4/whatever nights and still make progress. No trigger farming or spawn camping required, either.

If you disliked WoW, that's fine. I personally don't understand why someone would ever dislike an MMO because it gives players the option to play the game a certain way (ie. solo to the level cap) but that's just me. I'm also not certain how anyone could say that the option to solo to the level cap is a less appealing option than sitting around town for hours waiting for a group so you can get xp. WoW isn't the only MMO on the market where soloing to the level cap is a viable option.

Quote:
Bottom line, 11 million people playing and 8 million of them are just asshats.


Funny you should mention that. According to MMOGChart (here), FFXI peaked at 650k active accounts in 2005 and declined to 500k in 2006 (20% decline in one year) before they hit a plateau and you'll note the census data stops midway through 2007. This article here, written May 22nd of this year also lists FFXI current subscribers at 500k. So if you're right and out of 11 million subsribers, 8 million of them are asshats, that suggests that 3 million of them are regular folks like you and me which is still six times more people than what FFXI currently has.


Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 11:02pm by AureliusSir
#23 Jun 03 2009 at 10:00 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:

1. Questing, the few quests in FF11 were either extremely boring or very hard. I dont always want to level grind it be nice to get some REAL exp from quests and be a viable way for some leveling up. Or at least have the BCNMs drop EXP that actually reflect the time and effort that went into fighting them. (If they include anything like BCNMs in this game). So what im really asking for? More than one way to level, its not asking for much.
I lol'd. I think this is the first time I've ever heard someone claim WoW quests are more exciting than FFXI ones. In WoW, it's mostly all the same boring thing and you get huge rewards. FFXI, you don't always get the crazy rewards, but at least it's interesting and tells a good story.


Quote:


If you disliked WoW, that's fine. I personally don't understand why someone would ever dislike an MMO because it gives players the option to play the game a certain way (ie. solo to the level cap) but that's just me.
Because it shouldn't be that easy. I'm all for soloing to get some XP while LFP but having soloing to 75 be a viable option (take slightly longer than partying) is pretty silly.


I'm hoping by casual gamer, they just mean the way FFXI is now, but from the start. They made FFXI a lot easier and I think if they smoothed it out a bit, with a few more options for soloing and XPing and a slightly improved battle system, it'd be excellent.

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 2:02am by TheShadowWalker
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#24 Jun 03 2009 at 10:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
Quote:
If you disliked WoW, that's fine. I personally don't understand why someone would ever dislike an MMO because it gives players the option to play the game a certain way (ie. solo to the level cap) but that's just me.


Because it shouldn't be that easy. I'm all for soloing to get some XP while LFP but having soloing to 75 be a viable option (take slightly longer than partying) is pretty silly.


"Shouldn't" be that easy? Not sure if I get the rationale behind that. The only things "difficult" about leveling with a group were

a) finding the group
b) getting the group to camp in a timely fashion
c) dealing with people who were better at making a mess than contributing to the group
d) finding/waiting around for replacements when someone had to leave

None of those add a whole lot of interest to the game. I don't need to be in a group to chat with my LS/guild, so it's not like grouping is the only option for social interaction while leveling.

If you like to level in a group, awesome. Good for you. But to suggest that it "should" be done that way or that there's something wrong with being able to gain reasonable xp solo...c'mon. That's just ridiculous.

Quote:
I'm hoping by casual gamer, they just mean the way FFXI is now, but from the start. They made FFXI a lot easier and I think if they smoothed it out a bit, with a few more options for soloing and XPing and a slightly improved battle system, it'd be excellent.


Absolutely defeats the purpose of making a new game from the ground up if it's just going to be a slightly refined version of its predecessor. Don't worry...FFXI will still be around if FFXIV turns out to be too much fun for you.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 11:11pm by AureliusSir
#25 Jun 03 2009 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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To Aurelius... SIR

you said:

If it really bothers you that much, I'd suggest that maybe you avoid this corner of ZAM for a little while...these aren't the FFXI boards, and it's not just FFXI players that are excited and optimistic about SE's recently announced offering to the MMO world.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

That might be so, but you cannot deny that it is the FFXI players who are the players who will be online with FFXIV on day one and who are also the playerbase with the most insight to a final fantasy online game.

I play Wow, I play Warhammer, I resigned from FFXI with 5 lvl 75s. But I know in my heart I am a Final Fantasy player first, no matter my Crusade title from the tournament, my new Choppa and my RVR tome entries, or my emblems of conquest from Ulduar, or how psyched I am about the next patch. Nothing has come close to exciting me in a MMO as seeing this announced.

So what if FFXI players don't want to snuggle up to WOW? The whole point of FFXI is a community, which is sorely lacking in Wow or War, and though I love my guild, it will never come close to the real relationships I made with my linkshell. I like my guild, but it is nothing compared to coming from a level 1 redmage with a linkshell through all of ZM and COP.

Yes, players from other MMOs are more than welcome to join this discussion, but please do not pretend that there is a more vested stake in FFXIV from anything other than those of us who played FFXI for over 5 or 6 years. We are the ones who have been making GM calls and writing letters and attending conferences for the last 6 years, and our input has been heard by the developers. We just want to let them know what we love and what we hate.

And our conferences don't cost 130$ a ticket and airfare and hotel costs. Last one I went to I got a bunch of free crap and all it cost me was gas to get there.

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 3:03am by Shazaamemt
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#26 Jun 03 2009 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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1,353 posts
Quote:
"Shouldn't" be that easy? Not sure if I get the rationale behind that. The only things "difficult" about leveling with a group were

a) finding the group
b) getting the group to camp in a timely fashion
c) dealing with people who were better at making a mess than contributing to the group
d) finding/waiting around for replacements when someone had to leave

None of those add a whole lot of interest to the game. I don't need to be in a group to chat with my LS/guild, so it's not like grouping is the only option for social interaction while leveling.

If you like to level in a group, awesome. Good for you. But to suggest that it "should" be done that way or that there's something wrong with being able to gain reasonable xp solo...c'mon. That's just ridiculous.
I can see you're point, good way of putting it. I think MMORPGs should incorporate the idea of team efforts though.
Quote:

Absolutely defeats the purpose of making a new game from the ground up if it's just going to be a slightly refined version of its predecessor. Don't worry...FFXI will still be around if FFXIV turns out to be too much fun for you.
I was referring just to leveling up with what I said.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#27 Jun 03 2009 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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1,353 posts
Quote:
To Aurelius... SIR

you said:

If it really bothers you that much, I'd suggest that maybe you avoid this corner of ZAM for a little while...these aren't the FFXI boards, and it's not just FFXI players that are excited and optimistic about SE's recently announced offering to the MMO world.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

That might be so, but you cannot deny that it is the FFXI players who are the players who will be online with FFXIV on day one and who are also the playerbase with the most insight to a final fantasy online game.

I play Wow, I play Warhammer, I resigned from FFXI with 5 lvl 75s. But I know in my heart I am a Final Fantasy player first, no matter my Crusade title from the tournament, my new Choppa and my RVR tome entries, or my emblems of conquest from Ulduar, or how psyched I am about the next patch. Nothing has come close to exciting me in a MMO as seeing this announced.

So what if FFXI players don't want to snuggle up to WOW? The whole point of FFXI is a community, which is sorely lacking in Wow or War, and though I love my guild, it will never come close to the real relationships I made with my linkshell. I like my guild, but it is nothing compared to coming from a level 1 redmage with a linkshell through all of ZM and COP.

Yes, players from other MMOs are more than welcome to join this discussion, but please do not pretend that there is a more vested stake in FFXIV from anything other than those of us who played FFXI for over 5 or 6 years. We are the ones who have been making GM calls and writing letters and attending conferences for the last 6 years, and our input has been heard by the developers. We just want to let them know what we love and what we hate.

And our conferences don't cost 130$ a ticket and airfare and hotel costs. Last one I went to I got a bunch of free crap and all it cost me was gas to get there.

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 3:03am by Shazaamemt
I agree. If Blizzard made a new MMO called WoW Take to The Skies or something, you don't think the WoW players would be the first ones on the boards trying to get aspects of the first Blizzard MMO into the second?

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 3:09am by TheShadowWalker
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#28 Jun 04 2009 at 12:10 AM Rating: Excellent
I don't see anyone complaining about people wanting aspects of FFXI in FFXIV, I see people freaking out when others suggest aspects of other MMOs in FFXIV. Face it, games have come after and the science of MMO has evolved. Why are they making a new MMO? Because the developers KNOW that. If they though FFXI was perfect, they'd make it part of FFXI, but they're not.

FFXI was great for it's time. It's pretty darn tootin' for this time. It's probably one of the best themes and overall package still and that's saying a lot. But it doesn't beat every other game in every way.

It reminds me of ultra nationalist americans who refuse to accept that another country may have made an advance in science that we should use too.
____________________________
Die! Die die die. die die die die, die die. - Scarlet Briar
#29 Jun 04 2009 at 12:59 AM Rating: Default
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424 posts
It's not about being 'ultra nationalist', but it IS about defending the MMORPG that we love, that FFXIV HAPPENS TO BE THE NATURAL SUCCESSOR TO.

It is one thing to suggest aspects that we like from other games. It is an entirely other thing to COMPLETELY upend the core of a final fantasy game in order to gain subscriptions from another playerbase.

Those of us who completely love FFXI are afraid.

We are afraid that the success of WoW will mean that many of the things from WoW will creep into this new game. I play WoW, and I like WoW for what it is. But I, as do many other final fantasy players, do not want to see WOW in Final Fantasy XIV.

We don't want to see hot bars.

We don't want to see a UI that must be modded until we can't even see the game.

We don't want to see a crappy story line.

We don't want to see a one character, one class system.

We don't want to see a once character, one craft system.

We don't want to lose our cutscenes.

We don't want an emphasis on PVP that destroys our PVE environment.

We don't want to see WOW in FFXIV.

And for that we are allowed to reject, PASSIONATELY, the addendum that the WOW players here have posted.
It is not ultra-nationalism, it is merely pride in one's heritage. There is a difference.
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"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#30 Jun 04 2009 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
21 posts
I've played WoW since day 1 of US release, and I sincerly hope that S-E will design the game based on what they've learned from FFXI, not by looking at WoW and try to copy many of the elements from that game. The thing with FFXI was that the game wasn't only about max level, it had many steps along the way, like missions, unlocking attunements/jobs/summons/airship pass/chocobo/level limits and many other things. It made the journey up to max level a very fun and interesting one.

WoW on the other hand, is a easy quick grind, which is mostly done solo, to get to max level, as currently ALL content is placed there. There's nothing interesting or fun to do at lower levels, not to mention that the content that once was available at your current level most likely has been dead and obselete for a long time already.

Another thing that sets FFXI and WoW apart is that WoW ONLY has one way of progression; gear. The way to get the gear is to run the current 10man or 25man raid instance, of which a new one gets released around every 6-7 months. That's not a problem in itself, but what's more tedious and boring is that there's nothing to do with the gear you get. All you do is farm the same instance, over and over every week just to pass time. There's no forms of BCNM's, instances, NM's, mission or any other type of content to do with your upgraded character. It's all pointless in the end.

FFXI's design to have even older content be somewhat viable, and older gear have its specific use is much more fun and interesting in a longevity point of view. Their choice in having few limited quests and rather focus on missionlines was also one of the best things about it. Really people, as nice as some quests can be, it gets VERY BORING to have to kill x, collect y, deliver z 3500 times over the course of a game(Like WoW has done).

One of the main things that I think should be improved in FFXIV is traveltimes, and also a better looking for group tool. Also, they should try to make sure that most classes have something to bring to the table, so we don't have the issue of certain classes sitting in Jueno looking for groups for an hour. This especially hurt the more casual crowd, which found it hard to make progress if they only had 1-2 hours to play at a time.

One major thing they also need to avoid is to make sure that there's different tiers of progression which you can achieve. One of the worst things about WoW is the homogenization and the difficulty of the game, or rather, lack of difficulty. It just feels so pointless playing a game, without consequences, without any form of challenege or any sense of accomplishment once you do something. Not to mention that most of the game is based around content that you can easily just PuG or do solo.



#31 Jun 04 2009 at 2:07 AM Rating: Good
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179 posts
Just a couple points of order here on the difference between WoW and FFXI

1. PVP
The Final Fantasy series has always run along the lines of "You and your team of friends team up against the evil badies to save the world." It is highly unrealistic that any FF Online game will ever take PvP to the level of WoW. That said, I would enjoy it if they make the PvP for XIV a bit more enticing and fun than it is in XI.

2. Story
Final Fantasy, in any of its forms, has (and always will be) a heavily story-based game. WoW, as it stands right now, is not.

3. Casualness
Ever since the release of ToAU, FFXI has become a much more "casual" game than it was when it was first released. However, I think if you brought the Developers of FFXI and the Developers of WoW together, there'd probably be an argument as to the definition of "casual." Which leads to...

4. Difficulty
I know the general consensus around here is that FFXI is a lot more difficult than WoW. I also know a lot of people confuse difficulty with tediousness. Still, it's pretty much true. It takes a lot of strategy, teamwork, and hopefully using some of that upper thought process in order to do really well in this game. Personally, I like that and am sure the same amount of challenge will be found in XIV, with a lot more fun added in.

5. Stupidity
Now, WoW has a ton of players. That also means it has a lot of stupid players. FFXI, on the other hand, also has stupid players. This is not because WoW is easier/FFXI is harder, blablabla. This is because people are stupid. And lazy. Yes, I'm talking to you, you people who can't be bothered to learn how to work as a team or learn how to play your job properly.

I think we can all agree that there will be stupid people in XIV. And I think if we all thought about this logically, we'd all (hopefully) realize that SE is secure enough as a company that they don't even need to making a clone of another game in order to be popular.

6. The FFXI Player's Stake in FFXIV
- See everything Shazaamemt has posted so far. That pretty much sums it up.

Now, with all that said, ATTENTION WoWFANS. You are more than welcome to come to Eorzea with the rest of us! Just bring your A-game. I'm expecting nothing less.
____________________________
The Best FFXI Music Videos
Dreamscape Studios//YouTube
#32 Jun 04 2009 at 2:33 AM Rating: Default
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572 posts
Well, if we now are discussing WoW, let me entertain you with a little bit of WoW facts. If you think that WoW is popular think again. According to Blizzard WoW had 11, 5 million subscribers at the end of November 2008, roughly 1 month after Wrath of Leech king. During a press conference not so long ago, Blizzard admitted that they are still at 11, 5 million. This is a period of 6 months after the release of Lich King.

Considering that WoW, and its expansion are in top sales in all the game stores they got the question where are all those new players that have bought the game in this 6 month period? The shocking truth is that WoW has a very fragile customer base. Basically they did get an influx of 700,000+ players during this 6 month period, BUT at the same time they lost the same amount of players. This of course means that WoW is extremely heavy dependent on new influx of players to offset the massive amount of people that are leaving WoW. Compare to FFXI which have a strong player base that plays the games for several years, it has very little turnover in its player base, one can say it’s almost nonexistent.

So the question is how come WoW has such huge turnover in its player base?
If we look at who is actually playing WoW you will see that most of its player base is actually people that don’t have that much time to play. They can logon for maybe like 1 or 2 hours max / day. What content can WoW offer to a player that can only play for such a short time? Well, there is solo xp:ing, solo question, crafting, PVP, might get a 5 man instance done on that time.

Now, casual "Joe" can do all of those things pretty fast actually and the only thing that he can repeat when done with xp:ing, is to do repeatable quest and PVP. Repeatable quests get boring after 3 or 4 times so all is left is PVP. When Joe gets his gear in PVP then Joe feels there is no point in doing PVP either, so what’s left? (A quick note about PVP in wow at its current state, it’s totally broken since some classes have a massive advantage over other classes in Arena, this issue Blizzard have tried to solve for several years but they have failed miserably, if you don’t believe me you can go and read the WoW forums about WoW PVP unbalanced post, there are several thousands of them, basically when you try to fix PVP it unbalances PVE and vise verse)

In WoW endgame there is only 1 thing you can do and that is, 10 men or 25 man raiding. Since Joe doesn’t have the time and not developed any social skill ( since he played solo to max level), let alone how to play his character in a raid, he shies away from that option and quits the game. What about the hardcore players of WoW you might ask, are they having the greatest time in their lives when they play WoW? **** no. First the only real viable option in WoW today is endgame raiding consisting of 25 man raid and 10 man raids. Don’t be fooled by 25 men and 10 men since it’s the same instance with same bosses but tuned a bit differently to fit the raid size, also you have the normal and heroic mode, basically hard and easy mode.

Now, if we check the hard more then you have the top guilds, like 1 % of the population beating it and finish the content pretty fast. Then all they can do is sit in Orgrimmar and watch the walls. For the rest of the player base it usually will be a piece of cake to finish the normal mode instance and the hard mode after they have nurfed it. It usually takes one or two month before Blizzard nurfing the instance. So at the end of each instance "cycle" you have 99% of the WoW population running around in the same gear, everyone exact a copy of each other. Hardcore and mediocre or even casuals, all have the same gear.

After 6 months, Blizzard presses the reset button on the game and basically erases all your gear to 0 worth and start the process all over again with a new instance. This is basically WoW and WoW game play in a nutshell.

As it looks now it seems that WoW is walking on a very fine and thin line, the influx of new players offset the people that are leaving. With Aions release scheduled for this autumn WoW will probably take a huge hit. And when that happens WoW will dip down sharply. Why do you think blizzard was announcing that a new MMO is at work? If you have 11 million subscribers why announce a new MMO? Simple answer then don’t want to lose customer to other MMO:s, especially Aion and more importantly FF14.

So, should SE try to gimmick WoW to improve its game after you have read this?
I would say, “SE be VERY CAREFUL of what you bring in from WoW”.


Edited, Jun 4th 2009 6:46am by Maldavian

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 10:03am by Maldavian
#33 Jun 04 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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11,576 posts
Shazaamemt wrote:
It's not about being 'ultra nationalist', but it IS about defending the MMORPG that we love, that FFXIV HAPPENS TO BE THE NATURAL SUCCESSOR TO.


Defending against what? Who/what is attacking it? The night elves? The moogles? The Scottish? There's absolutely nothing wrong with people saying, "FFXI was a great game, but x/y/z aspect of it really didn't work for me. <Other MMO> does it like this, which I found to be a much more enjoyable experience so barring all else, if SE could incorporate some of that or something similar as part of the evolution of their MMO offering I think that would be cool."

Which is basically the extent of what has been done.

Quote:
It is one thing to suggest aspects that we like from other games. It is an entirely other thing to COMPLETELY upend the core of a final fantasy game in order to gain subscriptions from another playerbase.


You talk as though you think FFXIV is being made for players of FFXI. It's not. If it were, the FFXI servers would be shut down when FFXIV is released. There are efforts being made so that FFXIV is familiar to FFXI players, but it's still a new game. It doesn't have to be all the same. There are a lot of people currently playing FFXI who enjoy aspects of FFXI that most people find to be dated, dull, and just downright boring. Someone mentions the option to solo to the level cap in WoW and it turns into the same tired old WoW bashing that has been going on...typically by FFXI players who have never played WoW...and none of the would-be MMO gurus trashing WoW ever fully realize that as far as I recall, almost every other MMO that has been released in North America since FFXI has provided players with the option to level solo. It's not a uniquely WoW phenomenon, but it works. It's an option. End-game is an option. Instanced group content is an option. Professions/rep/questing/PvP...all options. Stack together multiple options and you get this miraculous thing called diversity, and diversity is what keeps people from spending 6 hours sitting around a town waiting for a group because there's jack all else to do..

Quote:
Those of us who completely love FFXI are afraid.

We are afraid that the success of WoW will mean that many of the things from WoW will creep into this new game. I play WoW, and I like WoW for what it is. But I, as do many other final fantasy players, do not want to see WOW in Final Fantasy XIV.


Could you do me a favor and be a wee tiny bit more closed minded please? I want to see if your head implodes and a black hole forms where once was only flawed logic.

WTF do you think you're saying when you say you do not want to see WoW in Final Fantasy? You're afraid there are going to be Tauren and Night Elves? That you might exit your starting city of choice to find a kobold screaming about his candle? What exactly is it that has you so paranoid about the idea of FFXIV taking note of certain components that never really worked in FFXI but are a huge part of the success of other MMOs? Making it so you can solo to the level cap in FFXIV, for example, does not make it WoW. Making a faster and more engaging combat system in FFXIV does not make it WoW. Cutting out an enormous chunk of the senseless waiting in FFXI (HEEEELLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ULLIKUMMI! WE KNOW YOU'RE THERE SOMEWHERE!!!) is not going to make it WoW.

So perhaps you...or anyone else for that matter...would like to clarify exactly what it is that has so many FFXI neophytes trembling with fear and loathing at the idea that FFXIV might actually have long term appeal for more than a half million people.

1) Acknowledging that you don't need forced group play all the time, hours upon hours upon hours of doing nothing but waiting, and extreme penalties for failure for an MMO to be entertaining and rewarding would make us realize just how much of our time we had actually been wasting in FFXI relative to actually playing the game.
2)

Carry on...

Quote:
We don't want to see hot bars.


What's wrong with hot bars?

Quote:
We don't want to see a UI that must be modded until we can't even see the game.


UI mods are a choice by players, and FFXIV will likely not support them anyways due to their plans for cross-platform console support. Careful though...your ignorance is showing.

Quote:
We don't want to see a crappy story line.


You'd have to be a right sodding moron to think that SE is going to leave the story aspects out of FFXIV...especially after the press conference yesterday...or to think that those of us from other MMOs would be pushing for a reduced story influence in FFXIV.

Quote:
We don't want to see a one character, one class system.


Who here has said that that's what they want to see in FFXIV?

Quote:
We don't want to see a once character, one craft system.


It was one character, two primary professions, actually. And I recall on these boards having seen very little discussion about crafting system hopes/ideas for FFXIV.

Quote:
We don't want to lose our cutscenes.


So? Who said you should/did?

Quote:
We don't want an emphasis on PVP that destroys our PVE environment.


I 100% agree with you there.

Quote:
We don't want to see WOW in FFXIV.


You need to do better than that. Or at least to read through the boards more thoroughly before you comment. People are suggesting aspects of other MMOs as examples for comparison. Not saying it should be <insert MMO here> with FFXI models and music.

Quote:
And for that we are allowed to reject, PASSIONATELY, the addendum that the WOW players here have posted.
It is not ultra-nationalism, it is merely pride in one's heritage. There is a difference.


Lay off the bong dude. Seriously.

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 9:06am by AureliusSir
#34 Jun 04 2009 at 7:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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11,576 posts
TheShadowWalker wrote:
]I agree. If Blizzard made a new MMO called WoW Take to The Skies or something, you don't think the WoW players would be the first ones on the boards trying to get aspects of the first Blizzard MMO into the second?


Ya, but one might hope that they could do it in a manner that doesn't so closely resemble:

IdeaGuy>> I like the idea of being able to level solo whenever I want!
FFXINazi>> WE DON'T WANT THIS TO BE WOW!!
IdeaGuy2>> I hope there's lots of instanced content around the world!!
FFXINazi>> WE DON'T WANT THIS TO BE WOW!!
IdeaGuy3>> I hope they don't make a lot of window spawned HNMs for end game or trigger farming D:
FFXINazi>> WE DON'T WANT THIS TO BE WOW!! THIS IS FINAL FANTASY!! FINAL FANTASY FINAL FANTASY FINAL FANT... *emoplode*
#35 Jun 04 2009 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
Maldavian wrote:
What content can WoW offer to a player that can only play for such a short time? Well, there is solo xp:ing, solo question, crafting, PVP, might get a 5 man instance done on that time.


What content can FFXI offer to players that can only play for an hour or two at a time? About the same only on a far more limited scale.

Quote:
In WoW endgame there is only 1 thing you can do and that is, 10 men or 25 man raiding.


Wrong. Tons of people hit the level cap and find hours upon hours of active entertainment and they don't raid.

Quote:
Since Joe doesn’t have the time and not developed any social skill


You uhh...you need an MMO to develop social skill?

Quote:
( since he played solo to max level), let alone how to play his character in a raid, he shies away from that option and quits the game.


News flash for you: WoW isn't the only MMO where people don't know how to function well in larger groups.

Quote:
First the only real viable option in WoW today is endgame raiding consisting of 25 man raid and 10 man raids. Don’t be fooled by 25 men and 10 men since it’s the same instance with same bosses but tuned a bit differently to fit the raid size, also you have the normal and heroic mode, basically hard and easy mode.


Wrong...again. Normal mode is 10-man. Heroic is 25-man. Toggling normal/heroic for a raid instance is what switches between the 10 and 25-man versions. That is all.

Quote:
Now, if we check the hard more then you have the top guilds, like 1 % of the population beating it and finish the content pretty fast. Then all they can do is sit in Orgrimmar and watch the walls. For the rest of the player base it usually will be a piece of cake to finish the normal mode instance and the hard mode after they have nurfed it. It usually takes one or two month before Blizzard nurfing the instance. So at the end of each instance "cycle" you have 99% of the WoW population running around in the same gear, everyone exact a copy of each other. Hardcore and mediocre or even casuals, all have the same gear


Also wrong. 10-man gear is different from 25-man gear (same model, different color, different stats). Downing bosses within "hard mode" parameters rewards additional loot as well. The hard mode loot/mounts/etc. are the "status" items.

Quote:
After 6 months, Blizzard presses the reset button on the game and basically erases all your gear to 0 worth and start the process all over again with a new instance. This is basically WoW and WoW game play in a nutshell.


Also wrong. The gear you earn today is the gear you need to be successful in the next raid dungeon. But again, if you play for gear that you can pet and stroke and covet for years to come, I can see how upgrading would be a disappointment for you. I mean...holy ****...upgrading gear in an MMO. What an atrocious, horrible concept. Much better to fight the same mobs in the same content for years with nothing to show for it until that magic day when you join the elite ranks of the "people who have too much time to grind for a single piece of gear" huzzah!

Quote:
So, should SE try to gimmick WoW to improve its game after you have read this?
I would say, “SE be VERY CAREFUL of what you bring in from WoW”.


I agree, which is why most players...aside from the hardcore FFXI neophytes...would like to see a blend of various successful MMO components with a healthy dose of SE innovation thrown in for flavor.
#36 Jun 04 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
I have a few arguements I would like to make. I did play WoW for a little while. I had a 73 Mage and an 80 Death Knight. While leveling your first job to max level can be fun, the issue comes in where you have to do it again and again. And while doing it all solo it is a lot easier to be a casual gamer.

Here is point 1. For the longest time it felt I was playing a single player game. Until i reached 80 I never had to rely on someone else, **** i never had to interact with another player. I believe an MMO(Emphasis on the "M") should require you to actually interact with the playerbase.

Point 2. While there is no denying that wow is a hugely successful game it is nice to play a smaller MMO like ffxi. From my experience FFXI has retained a lot of loyal players.

In Dalaran you can log in every day look at the general chat and be lucky to see a guy talking that you have seen before. In Whitegate, you will see the same people.

I think that everyone is defending ffxi so much because SE did a fantastic job in creating such a closely knit community.
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#37 Jun 04 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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572 posts
According to that new intervju with FFXIV;

"- No PVP system."

Hmm I wonder what does that mean ;D ?
#38 Jun 04 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
Alblucan wrote:

I think that everyone is defending ffxi so much because SE did a fantastic job in creating such a closely knit community.


But nobody has any idea WHAT they are defending it from.
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#39 Jun 04 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Alblucan wrote:

I think that everyone is defending ffxi so much because SE did a fantastic job in creating such a closely knit community.


But nobody has any idea WHAT they are defending it from.


From the evil clutches of WoW fan boys ? ^^^^
#40 Jun 04 2009 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
See you have no idea.
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#41 Jun 04 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
See you have no idea.


Really^? Then enlighten me please. ^^^^
#42 Jun 04 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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11,576 posts
Maldavian wrote:
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
See you have no idea.


Really^? Then enlighten me please. ^^^^


If you don't know, how the **** are we supposed to know.

Sky is falling, dude. Look out. And you know who dropped it? The boogie man. You are so totally screwed....
#43 Jun 04 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
Alblucan wrote:
I have a few arguements I would like to make. I did play WoW for a little while. I had a 73 Mage and an 80 Death Knight. While leveling your first job to max level can be fun, the issue comes in where you have to do it again and again. And while doing it all solo it is a lot easier to be a casual gamer.

Here is point 1. For the longest time it felt I was playing a single player game. Until i reached 80 I never had to rely on someone else, **** i never had to interact with another player. I believe an MMO(Emphasis on the "M") should require you to actually interact with the playerbase.


I disagree. I don't think it should require you to interact with the player base. I think the incredible potential of an MMO is that it gives you the option to do so, and I think most MMO developers realize that if they want to have a successful game with true longevity, it has to be kept as an option and not a requirement. People are paying by the month to play most MMOs. If the way the game is developed and tuned means that you can't enjoy the game because the conditions don't allow it (ie. can't find a group for whatever reason), you're going to **** people off and they're going to stop paying you.

If you choose to play an MMO in such a way that you arrive at the level cap and don't know anyone, you have nobody to "blame" but yourself. Maybe you arrive at the level cap, don't know anyone, and don't care that you don't know anyone. Nothing wrong with that, either. If, however, a person were to hit the level cap, realize they don't know anyone and then be immature enough to resent the game for allowing them to play in such a way that they weren't forced to make a large network of friends...that's just...lame. Sorry, it is. I don't need Daddy MMO Developer shoving me out the door to make friends in Vana'diel/Azeroth/Eorzea. I'm perfectly capable of doing so on my own as the inclination strikes me.
#44 Jun 04 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It was one character, two primary professions, actually. And I recall on these boards having seen very little discussion about crafting system hopes/ideas for FFXIV.


Yep, 2 primary and also secondary professions such as fishing or first aid. It's actually pretty similar to FFXI in that regard. It's not like you can max out every craft in this game. You can take them all to a certain point, but you can't max them all. And I only know very few people who have taken every craft to the highest limits possible. Two of which also happened to be two gentlemen who bought gil, back when it was fashionable to openly admit it.

I'll also add an argument against the person who likes to *see the same people in WG* versus seeing new names in WoW chat all the time - in WoW you are forced to have several different characters if you want to play different classes. You may have been seeing the same *people*, just on a different character. If it was that way in FFXI, we'd see a lot more of that as well. Having one character with all options available is a better way to handle that particular aspect, so don't take THAT concept from WoW.

*BUT*

Strike a balance between all options on one character and the level of difficulty to progress to that point on multiples. I'd like to play a couple different races, and not be locked into one for all eternity just because of CoP-ish missions that take forever to complete.


Overall, Aurelius has the right of it. Those of us who play WoW and enjoy it are making suggestions. We are not over here saying, "Ok, SE urdoinitwrong do it this way because we are teh uberz".

I am a long time Final Fantasy fan, as I mentioned before. But Final Fantasy Eleven didn't get everything right and I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it did like some of you are.

Fourteen.... Well we will see. It has potential, now that SE has had seven years to observe what we liked and what we didn't. And I believe very strongly that Blizzard should be concerned.
#45 Jun 04 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Ya, but one might hope that they could do it in a manner that doesn't so closely resemble:

IdeaGuy>> I like the idea of being able to level solo whenever I want!
FFXINazi>> WE DON'T WANT THIS TO BE WOW!!
IdeaGuy2>> I hope there's lots of instanced content around the world!!
FFXINazi>> WE DON'T WANT THIS TO BE WOW!!
IdeaGuy3>> I hope they don't make a lot of window spawned HNMs for end game or trigger farming D:
FFXINazi>> WE DON'T WANT THIS TO BE WOW!! THIS IS FINAL FANTASY!! FINAL FANTASY FINAL FANTASY FINAL FANT... *emoplode*
I understand your point and it's valid. I think a lot of people here, myself to a degree, are rather defensive about it (against WoW-like factors) because we really enjoyed FFXI and we feel like Square Enix made an MMO for whatever niche we may be in. When they decided to make a new MMO, many of us are going to want to move over because obviously this games going to last longer, look nicer, be more refined. When people rush saying "diverge from what you used to do! do it like this game we like!" it's disheartening because a new Final Fantasy MMO is what many of us have been waiting for.

Now, I'm in no way saying this is what's happening. Most people aren't really saying emulate WoW or that sort of thing but it is a concern for many people. Especially people who want an MMO they can play for the next 6 years, in a Final Fantasy universe, and enjoy. I'm really not all that concerned, though. I think Square knows how Final Fantasy games should be made.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#46 Jun 04 2009 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
I understand your point and it's valid. I think a lot of people here, myself to a degree, are rather defensive about it (against WoW-like factors) because we really enjoyed FFXI and we feel like Square Enix made an MMO for whatever niche we may be in. When they decided to make a new MMO, many of us are going to want to move over because obviously this games going to last longer, look nicer, be more refined. When people rush saying "diverge from what you used to do! do it like this game we like!" it's disheartening because a new Final Fantasy MMO is what many of us have been waiting for.


I think it would be beneficial to realize that there are a lot of people who have played FFXI for years and left because the game wasn't entertaining for them anymore. They found other MMOs to occupy their time and found those MMOs to employ systems that were more suited to their liking, but would have liked it far more if FFXI could have implemented those systems first so we didn't feel compelled to leave our game of choice (based on the legacy and the lore) because the mechanics at the core of the game were broken. (Which SE has publicly recognized in their own vague way.)

I have said countless times that if SE could take the lore and the rich history and incredible story development and wrap it around a game that was more engaging and less of a senseless grind, I'd be all over it like white on rice. They've announced a new game. They've announced that they want it to be far more casual friendly. They have said that they've looked at other MMOs to see what is working over there, and that they've looked at FFXI to see what is working there and they started the project with the idea of making the best Final Fantasy game ever.

And here I am.

Sometimes I think that too many current FFXI players have trouble visualizing a game that accommodates the full range of players from the extreme casual to the extreme hardcore. It's entirely possible to do so. Bring up WoW in front of an FFXI neophyte and the first sentence they utter is likely to include the phrase "too easy." It's not. There is a lot of challenge to be found in WoW...or LOTRO...or most other MMOs...but an open minded person realizes that you don't need everything to be uber-challenging to have fun. It's not necessary for everything to involve an epic grind in order for it to be rewarding and satisfying. What is not possible is to eliminate all of the whining that ensues when casual players get up in arms that hardcore folks get all the "good" stuff and hardcore players get up in arms that casual players actually have an opportunity to enjoy themselves. Heaven forbid that content progression puts the previously "hardcore only" gear in the hands of semi-casual players...now that is a 12 page Alla ********* in the making, and it's usually started by people who would do well to find lives outside of an MMO so that they don't need to attach so much importance to virtual property in a virtual world. That doesn't mean implementing the full spectrum of options is a bad idea...it just means people ***** too much.

Quote:
Now, I'm in no way saying this is what's happening. Most people aren't really saying emulate WoW or that sort of thing but it is a concern for many people. Especially people who want an MMO they can play for the next 6 years, in a Final Fantasy universe, and enjoy. I'm really not all that concerned, though. I think Square knows how Final Fantasy games should be made.


And that's all fine. No issues there. At the same time, my question for the current FFXI players who feel compelled to be so xenophobic about ideas from other MMOs might be, what gives them the right to aggressively dictate to anyone else what should be in SE's newest MMO? I hope a lot of FFXI players hop over to FFXIV...I might even run into some people I knew from my days on Siren (and hope they don't garrote me in my sleep ;D)...but I'm not going to feel the least bit out of place because a took a 3-4 year break from FFXI before I found my way back to an SE-created online world. I'm not going to be joining a game owned by FFXI players...I'm going to be starting a character in a brand new MMO that just happens to have the same developer as FFXI, and share common themes carried over and evolved from a video game series I was first introduced to on the NES back when I was in junior high. Nobody has more "right" than me to offer my two cents on what I would like to see in FFXIV, and my hope is that they won't expect me to bow and scrape to them because they stuck with FFXI long after it lost its luster for me.

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 5:44pm by AureliusSir
#47 Jun 04 2009 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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I used to be much more anti-casual/soloing, but I find myself starting to want to see more and more players of all types in the game. I'm just hoping SE won't shaft people that would like to do extra work to get extra gear by offering items much easier to get but very comparable. Like.. instead of the +10 STR -5 Evasion gauntlets I worked 5 hours with a full party to get, someone can solo an 'easy' quest to get +9 STR gauntlets with no evasion docking. I'd like to see a nice middle ground that everyone (solo or not) can be expected to equip at and I'd like to see a higher end too.

This was thought of after I finished typing the first part, I realize slight discrepancies.
What'd be very interesting to see would be solo quested items of equal strength to party quested items, but with more difficulty/"danger" involved. Maybe some instanced (ick) type quests that only allow one player to enter. Not unlike the Maat fight.

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 9:09pm by TheShadowWalker
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#48Squallido, Posted: Jun 04 2009 at 5:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) SERIOUSLY, for those who wants FFXIV to be WOW-like... why not just then keep playing wow? this is a total different game, and they are smartasses which can come up with better ideas (which isnt really hard).
#49 Jun 04 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,218 posts
TanthalassQuetz wrote:

If you're looking for another WoW clone, keep looking.


It's clearly not going to be a WoW clone (nor should it be). But it IS going to be a lot more casual friendly than FFXI. The devs stated that something they want to take from WoW is that more "casual" players could play it. One specific thing they mentioned was making it so that you could play for 40 minutes at a time and still accomplish some things.

As for PvP and all of that, that information has come to light after the fact. I'm not sure if you're trying to seem smart by telling us after the fact what we now already know, or what.

I've played WoW quite a bit, and if I want to play more WoW, then I'll play WoW. After all, WoW has done a great job of perfecting the WoW formula.

I am interested in FFXIV because I like FFXI, and I feel like a game that is built around some of those same ideas can be even greater than FFXI, if the devs have learned some lessons about what many gamers want. That doesn't mean "dumb it down" or make it candy land. Just, you know, get rid of the things that are painful for no real reason, keep the stuff that's already great, and use the leftover design space to create something new and interesting.

It would be stupid for ANY business to not at least explore ways that they can learn from another business which is 20 times as large.
#50 Jun 04 2009 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh dear, oh dear. I'm sick of the FFXI vs WoW in regards to FFXIV already. Smiley: frown

Can't we just agree that it's a new game and move on? Wouldn't we all want them to take the best parts of both the games and apply them, but not copy them? Rather, build off them to build innovative, amazing, new features for us all? Smiley: tongue
#51 Jun 04 2009 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
I used to be much more anti-casual/soloing, but I find myself starting to want to see more and more players of all types in the game. I'm just hoping SE won't shaft people that would like to do extra work to get extra gear by offering items much easier to get but very comparable. Like.. instead of the +10 STR -5 Evasion gauntlets I worked 5 hours with a full party to get, someone can solo an 'easy' quest to get +9 STR gauntlets with no evasion docking. I'd like to see a nice middle ground that everyone (solo or not) can be expected to equip at and I'd like to see a higher end too.


Best suggestion? Don't worry about what other people can get. Find what you want and decide for yourself if it's worth the process to get it. If it is, go get it. If it's not, go get something else. Don't resent the grind you chose to do when there was a nearly equivalent option available to you for less effort. I'm not saying that everything should be instant, I'm saying that there are few things worse than listening to people whine because they put in soooo much more time than Bob but Bob's gear isn't so far from their own. If that were a valid argument, the one and only pair of Leaping Boots I ever got from Lizzy should have had +253 Agility on them to reward me for putting in so much more time than the guy who stumbled across Lizzy by accident and got them on his first kill.

The over-arching theme is that ideally people would be doing things in a game because they enjoy what they're doing, not doing things because they want the shinies to be had at the end of an extended grind and think that their masochism should entitle them to anything. I'm one of those players who will subject myself to a grind and not exactly enjoy all of it, but I keep firmly in mind that at any given time, I can just go do something else if I'm really that miserable about the process.

Quote:
This was thought of after I finished typing the first part, I realize slight discrepancies.
What'd be very interesting to see would be solo quested items of equal strength to party quested items, but with more difficulty/"danger" involved. Maybe some instanced (ick) type quests that only allow one player to enter. Not unlike the Maat fight.


Offering better gear for succeeding in group content than can be had from solo content is a very good (and very powerful) incentive for players to get involved in group content. It's just that there has to be a balance between "If you want the rewards, you have to participate in the content" and "lolnub u r solo so ur gearz are teh sukk!"

However, for the sake of being reasonable, you bring up a pretty good point in a roundabout way...I think it's important for the rewards in an MMO to be reasonably consistent and transparent. I'll never forget the Kirin fight that yielded our alliance a handful of gil for each alliance member and a wind crystal. That sort of stuff likely won't fly with most of the MMO population these days.
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