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#102 Jun 07 2009 at 6:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:

This pretty much sums up the pettiness that i am seeing in the forum.

OP:
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i'm hoping for eating / drinking to recover hp/mp


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Except that kind of reeks of WoW.


When a minute and insignificant mechanic such as out of combat regeneration is met with such prejudice how can anyone post about any meaningful mechanics without immediately being met with the hosility of "you want wow, play wow, we love ffxi as is".

Seriously, people need to stop - we are discussing possible features of the game =/


Yup, that about sums it up. Nicely done.

If every idea that's not currently implemented in FFXI to a significant extent is automatically met with the response, "No, that would make it too much like WoW," we're obviously not discussing desirable features in a new MMO that will be different from FFXI. We're dealing with prejudice.

I've pretty much exhausted all of my options in this thread to reiterate that my desire is not to see a "WoW clone" or to do away with every aspect of FFXI. It just goes to show that WoW doesn't have a monopoly on thick twits.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 7:48pm by AureliusSir
#103 Jun 07 2009 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I think it'd be more productive for us to discuss how the game can be made more X within the scope of what we know S-E is known for than it would be grabbing ideas from other MMOs. As good as certain ideas can be, it works because it's built for the particular environment. Trying to toss an idea in without looking at or discussing how it fits within the overall design will just ***** things up.

Although, just to comment on this whole WoWfans vs FFXIfans, I don't think the defensiveness from the FFXI fans is unwarranted. FFXIV will be the successor to FFXI regardless of whether or not FFXI continues to exist. All the experience, ideas, and design choices made for FFXIV will be based on the dev team's time with FFXI. Some of the design philosophies will likely carry over although whether they are not implemented the same will be another thing.

So why can be fans defensive? I think suggesting the game do things this way like game Y or this way like game X has an inherent twinge of superiority to it. If you think about it, suggesting someone do something this way means you think it's better than the way they were doing it now. That makes the person listening respond defensively because they think "Why should we do it like that? What was wrong with the way we were doing it?" To make an analogy, it'd be like a random person coming into your house and suggesting you reorganize your living room like a neighbor you don't particularly like. That's how it's seen.

I mean, I do think that other MMOs do things better but I, too, am a bit off put by folks suggesting XIV should simply do it like another MMO without discussing it within the scope of S-E and FFXI. It's a condescending position because it says to fans on the receiving end, "You like something I think is inferior to this other method." Makes them feel like they're getting attacked.

At any rate, if you do want to discuss it in that manner, best way to go about it would be to discuss the pros and cons of both systems then discuss how both can be reconciled.

Of course, this is only true if you're discussing things with someone that isn't a raving fanboy lunatic.
#104 Jun 07 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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I really don't see why everyone thinks FFXI is so much harder, I played both to the level cap and did end game for years and FFXI just takes longer....thats it. The game play is so slow i don't really see how it takes so much skill, I'm sorry if i upset anyone but its the truth, kill the same mob over and over again for hours to get one level isn't really the definition of skill.
#105 Jun 07 2009 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
We don't want to see hot bars.

Sorta agree... Both systems are nice in their own way.

Technically, when I played WoW, I used an addon which changed the system into something similar to Seiken Densetsu rings (Also by Square, in case you didn't know). Kinda prefer that to hotbars, or the menu system of FFXI.

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We don't want to see a UI that must be modded until we can't even see the game.

Don't agree. UI modding was nice, I'm totally a customizability freak. However, I have little sympathy for people who have no skill in graphic design who make their game unplayable by modifying it poorly.

My UI in WoW was extremely heavily modified, I think I have over 600 addons at my last count.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5404/progress3.jpg

Is that really so ugly? It might not be the sorta thing you like, but people like different things.

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We don't want to see a crappy story line.

Frankly, Warcraft has an amazing storyline, it really did. It's definitively one of the largest fantasy universes, with one of the richest histories ever written. It dwarves most fantasy universes, and is probably comfortably in the top ten fantasy universes when it comes to the quantity of established lore.

The problem you are thinking of would be more accurately described as this... Most of this story is not contained within the game world. Or when the story is in-game, it is so easily avoided that many people don't even realize it is there.

I remember one of the recent bosses put in the game, Sartharian, the average WoW player had no idea why he was there. In reality, there was an entire novel written that surrounded him, and his part in a greater plot line that has been going on for years, which itself was part of a greater that has been going on for thousands of years.

The events surrounding that boss were incredibly important lorewise, yet there was absolutely no mentioning in-game, not a single word of text, that explained why we were fighting this Dragon.

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We don't want to see a one character, one class system.

Agree.

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We don't want to see a once character, one craft system.

I think most World of Warcraft players are envious of this :P

Crafting in World of Warcraft is considered borderline worthless.

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We don't want to lose our cutscenes.

World of Warcraft has been trying to add cutscenes to the game, but sadly they are few inbetween. Cutscenes are awesome, I don't see any reason why any company would move backwards by removing cutscenes.

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We don't want an emphasis on PVP that destroys our PVE environment.

You and every other person ever to play an MMO.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 12:35pm by Karelyn
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#106 Jun 07 2009 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Is it just me or shouldn't we just make two stickied threads "Rumors and speculation" and another "Suggestions to SE." Honestly at this point there's really very little for anything else. It just turns into retards like the OP making wild speculation and generally just starting a useless thread. Just would make it easier that way any real info doesn't get buried by the spamtards.
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#107 Jun 07 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shouta wrote:
Although, just to comment on this whole WoWfans vs FFXIfans, I don't think the defensiveness from the FFXI fans is unwarranted. FFXIV will be the successor to FFXI regardless of whether or not FFXI continues to exist. All the experience, ideas, and design choices made for FFXIV will be based on the dev team's time with FFXI. Some of the design philosophies will likely carry over although whether they are not implemented the same will be another thing.


I accept the idea of FFXIV being the successor to FFXI only in the sense that it's the second MMO being made by SE and that it takes place within the scope of the Final Fantasy theme. Believe me, if that weren't an appealing notion to me I wouldn't be here. Looking through the variety of FF games made readily available in North America, we can see that there is very little that SE is incapable of when it comes to diversity in design philosophies.

At the core of every FF are the jobs (or more specifically, the spells), the chocobos, the airships, and the epic story. That's about it. The interface? It can change. The leveling system? That can change. The combat system? It can change. Non-magic based abilities? Change. So when we're talking about the scope of what is "Final Fantasy", very little of FFXI "needs" to carry over in terms of design philosophy in order to create an FF game. When players site gameplay examples that were unique to FFXI relative to other FF titles and use those as the basis for an argument about why FFXIV isn't an FF game without them, it doesn't hold water. It's a poor argument.

Quote:
So why can be fans defensive? I think suggesting the game do things this way like game Y or this way like game X has an inherent twinge of superiority to it. If you think about it, suggesting someone do something this way means you think it's better than the way they were doing it now. That makes the person listening respond defensively because they think "Why should we do it like that? What was wrong with the way we were doing it?" To make an analogy, it'd be like a random person coming into your house and suggesting you reorganize your living room like a neighbor you don't particularly like. That's how it's seen.


That's how it's seen, but how many times can a person repeat that that's not what is intended before people complaining about how they "see" the ideas seem less like rational folks having a discussion and more like closed minded critics of anything that exists outside of what they are familiar with?

The analogy that you used is that it's like a random person coming into your house and suggesting you reorganize your living room to match that of a neighbor you don't particularly like, and I think that's a very telling analogy. FFXIV is not yours. It's not your game, it's not being made specifically for you and the rest of the FFXI community. It's being made for everyone with an emphasis on those who have enjoyed anything to do with Final Fantasy.

I think a more appropriate analogy would be the same developer who built your apartment building announcing plans to build another apartment building next to yours, and people from the first apartment building trying to tell occupants of the new apartment building how to set up their decor because the developer built both buildings. That's what it boils down to.

I don't recall ever loading up FFX and having to wait 3 hours before I could do anything because Lulu and Wakka were already in a different group. I don't recall ever showing up to fight Chaos and having to wait three hours after I arrived waiting for him to spawn. The waits and the hardcore grind are not integral to the overall Final Fantasy concept. They were options in most games (ie. stat maxing in FFX International for the purpose of fighting Dark Aeons and Penance), but those represented a minority of the content. You could play any FF title for an hour and then shut it off feeling like you had enjoyed yourself and made some progression. Not only did (take note of past tense...I realize that it has changed somewhat) FFXI offer options to suit the minority of MMO gamers (ie. hardcore), that concept of hardcore put it in the minority relative to other FF titles.

There's no rational reason why FFXIV should continue to only suit the minority of FF fans and MMO gamers. If the best argument people have against aspects of game design is that it would make it "too much like WoW," well, I'm sorry. That's not good enough.
#108 Jun 07 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
The problem you are thinking of would be more accurately described as this... Most of this story is not contained within the game world. Or when the story is in-game, it is so easily avoided that many people don't even realize it is there.


That was one of the major disappointments I had with WoW. There was a lot of absolutely fantastic lore behind the game, but I always found it disappointing that I had to learn about the vast majority of it outside of the game. Given the number of WoW players that would pick up a quest without reading the description and then check their quest log for the gist of what they were required to do, it's not surprising that Blizzard would exclude a lot of the lore from the in-game experience.

At the same time, I can remember doing missions in FFXI and watching a cutscene only to have my chat log filled with all manner of crap, including but not limited to "Let's goooooooo!!" courtesy of people in the party who had no interest in the story. That was always an irritant to me.
#109 Jun 07 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
At the same time, I can remember doing missions in FFXI and watching a cutscene only to have my chat log filled with all manner of crap, including but not limited to "Let's goooooooo!!" courtesy of people in the party who had no interest in the story. That was always an irritant to me.

I think this will be bad in any game that has cutscenes, as long as you are capable of doing it more than once.

There was one place in World of Warcraft, the Halls of Stone, where there's a cutscene with a dwarf talking with an ancient computer about the origins of the dwarves and the world. It's a fairly long cutscene, about 5 minutes long, and you are able to skip it by talking to the dwarf and telling him to go back to it later.

It took number of times into Halls of Stone before I actually got to see the full cutscene before someone turned it off, because they were tired of seeing it for the 3rd or 4th time.

...

To put it in layman's speech, and as short as I can paraphrase it, according to the computer... Essentially the entire planet was created by the Titans, as a giant prison of rock around with the Lovecraft style Old Gods at the center, with no living creatures on it. A large number of robots/golems were created to act as jail-keepers. The Old Gods started corrupting the robots/golems, with a disease that the robot/golem jailkeepers dubbed the "Curse of Flesh." The infected robots/golems eventually became fleshy weak mortals, and made up the Humans, Dwarves, and gnomes. Other species immigrated to the planet over millions of years and/or evolved separately. It's a shame that almost NOBODY reads that story, and if you do want to read that little chunk of creation lore, your best bet is reading it on a wikipedia page.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 5:00pm by Karelyn
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#110 Jun 07 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
AureliusSir wrote:
Karelyn wrote:
The problem you are thinking of would be more accurately described as this... Most of this story is not contained within the game world. Or when the story is in-game, it is so easily avoided that many people don't even realize it is there.


That was one of the major disappointments I had with WoW. There was a lot of absolutely fantastic lore behind the game, but I always found it disappointing that I had to learn about the vast majority of it outside of the game. Given the number of WoW players that would pick up a quest without reading the description and then check their quest log for the gist of what they were required to do, it's not surprising that Blizzard would exclude a lot of the lore from the in-game experience.

At the same time, I can remember doing missions in FFXI and watching a cutscene only to have my chat log filled with all manner of crap, including but not limited to "Let's goooooooo!!" courtesy of people in the party who had no interest in the story. That was always an irritant to me.



Who the **** are Archavon and Emilon????
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#111 Jun 07 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
There was one place in World of Warcraft, the Halls of Stone, where there's a cutscene with a dwarf talking with an ancient computer about the origins of the dwarves and the world. It's a fairly long cutscene, about 5 minutes long, and you are able to skip it by talking to the dwarf and telling him to go back to it later.


Hehehe...I remember doing that the first time with guildies and having to tell them to shut up in vent so that I could hear what was being said because they kept nattering about irrelevant nonsense.
#112 Jun 07 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Who the **** are Archavon and Emilon????


Loot pinatas ;D
#113 Jun 07 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Who the **** are Archavon and Emilon????

Cameos from Viva Pinata.

... Really? They are incredibly absurdly minor characters, essentially very very very bored immortal jail-keepers who have been sitting around for ten thousand years on their butts. They also have incredibly low intelligence, if you are to judge by the writing quality of Archavon's diary.

His diary doesn't even tell much about him, other than give a proper timeline for some major events in the planet's history over the past 10,000 years. Pegging down the year when him, and the other golems began being infected by the Curse of Flesh, making them mortal (and many of them to devolve into humans/dwarves/gnomes), as well as a few other dates. Though there is a somewhat humorous lampshading on the idea that "Bosses drop armor that they couldn't possibly wear for players to equip," as his journal mentions how he's grown so bored over the years, that he started an armor collection.

TL;DR version: He's about as important to the plot as the majority of Notorious Monsters.

AureliusSir wrote:
Loot pinatas ;D

****, beat me to it.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 5:48pm by Karelyn
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#114 Jun 07 2009 at 6:25 PM Rating: Default
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Aurelius

I didn't know this started as a flame post and then turned into a different topic heading.

All I saw was 'Attention Wow fans' and thought, 'Hmm, I am a fan of WOW' and read the thread.

And I saw a holy war being waged between WOW and FFXI with you at the front of the charge and wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

This probably should have been entirely posted in the 'Learning from WOW' post as lessons not to take from WOW. It is EASY to see things in WOW and desire them in a game. ****, many of the newer MMOs were created almost entirely as WOW clones in some shape or form. (AoC, WAR... too much WOW in those games). It is not that far fetched to think the next major offering on the MMO front would again take too much from the world of warcraft. So I threw in on what I really dislike about WOW as compared to FFXI. I haven't yet thrown in on what I really like about Wow, so here are a few things.

The absence of Loading screens between zones. It is fine to have a load screen when I am say, taking a boat or ship, but it did add a sense of detatchment when all of a sudden the rolling hills of La Theine were replaced by a stark desert in Valkrum.

The ability to play solo. I really want this in FFXI, I just want there to also be an emphasis on party play throughout the game. I like the idea of being able to solo, but still needing a group for limit breaks. Or even the open party quests of Warhammer. I think everyone was a fan of the party system in FFXI, the only thing most people didn't like was the wait time.

The WoW crafting system. I like not needing to use the same crystal over and over, and that crafts ultimately reward you with different extra abilities after leveling them. I like how varied each profession feels as opposed to the monotony of FFXI. I just wish I wasn't leveling them only for the extra bonuses, and that I could feel more accomplished with making a +1 item the way one can in FFXI. And I am sad that I can't make my own glyphs as a Jewelcrafter/mining profession. It would add more to the game to have to find my own books of mastery.

The way Blizzard listens to its players and keeps a constant tab on player opinion. This is probably the reason why WoW maintains its popularity. Constant upgrades and changes based on player opinion is nothing but gold in a MMO. (ignoring the PvP whining that homogenized the game).

The knowledge you get in WoW that something new is just the next patch away. Even if you got bored farming naxx and running heroics, there was always the knowledge that Ulduar and Icecrown lay in wait.

The instanced world system. I LOVE IT. I LOVE that my icecrown area has evolved organically as a zone. I wish there was more of it in WoW and I hope it finds its way into FFXIV.

There is alot to love in WOW, but I came into this thread, and having read your posts just wanted to emphasize that WoW is NOT the end-all-be-all of MMOs. It has its charms, but so does FFXI. I think FFXI frustrated you and you quit because of things like wait times and looking for party. Those of us who stayed for a long time also hated those things, but were willing to tolerate it because there was a very rewarding and entertaining experience under that surface.

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#115 Jun 07 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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At the same time, I can remember doing missions in FFXI and watching a cutscene only to have my chat log filled with all manner of crap, including but not limited to "Let's goooooooo!!" courtesy of people in the party who had no interest in the story. That was always an irritant to me.


I hated that too, I wonder if that will be an issue in XIV?

Quote:
OP:

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i'm hoping for eating / drinking to recover hp/mp


Reply:

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Except that kind of reeks of WoW.


10 point response LoL, <3 this thread. ;p

Nothing like a good'ol XI vs. ...Wow Discussion.



Edited, Jun 8th 2009 2:14am by IshiharaTakamasa
#116 Jun 08 2009 at 1:06 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
I accept the idea of FFXIV being the successor to FFXI only in the sense that it's the second MMO being made by SE and that it takes place within the scope of the Final Fantasy theme. Believe me, if that weren't an appealing notion to me I wouldn't be here. Looking through the variety of FF games made readily available in North America, we can see that there is very little that SE is incapable of when it comes to diversity in design philosophies.


It's also being made by the exact same team as FFXI which is why it's the successor. It's not a different genre of game nor is it going to be a totally off-shoot. They clearly used their experiences with FFXI to create this and that justifies the label of it being a successor game.

AureliusSir wrote:
That's how it's seen, but how many times can a person repeat that that's not what is intended before people complaining about how they "see" the ideas seem less like rational folks having a discussion and more like closed minded critics of anything that exists outside of what they are familiar with?


When the person stops using another game as the base example for how another game can be improved? Think about it, the suggestions being pointed out are done in a manner that's pretty antagonistic (WoW does this better than FFXI, FFXI should adopt something like WoW, etc) manner. So actions and words don't match, making folks suspicious of what is being said or untrusting. Again back to my first point, if someone wants to discuss improving the game, do it in a manner focused on the game itself, what it's done, and what the devs are known for rather than comparing it to another game.

AureliusSir wrote:
The analogy that you used is that it's like a random person coming into your house and suggesting you reorganize your living room to match that of a neighbor you don't particularly like, and I think that's a very telling analogy. FFXIV is not yours. It's not your game, it's not being made specifically for you and the rest of the FFXI community. It's being made for everyone with an emphasis on those who have enjoyed anything to do with Final Fantasy.

I think a more appropriate analogy would be the same developer who built your apartment building announcing plans to build another apartment building next to yours, and people from the first apartment building trying to tell occupants of the new apartment building how to set up their decor because the developer built both buildings. That's what it boils down to.


My analogy was for the situation here, not the game. At any rate, it won't matter anyway. The development team won't listen to us anyway.

AureliusSir wrote:
The waits and the hardcore grind are not integral to the overall Final Fantasy concept. They were options in most games (ie. stat maxing in FFX International for the purpose of fighting Dark Aeons and Penance), but those represented a minority of the content. You could play any FF title for an hour and then shut it off feeling like you had enjoyed yourself and made some progression. Not only did (take note of past tense...I realize that it has changed somewhat) FFXI offer options to suit the minority of MMO gamers (ie. hardcore), that concept of hardcore put it in the minority relative to other FF titles.


The reason why FFXI didn't attract more Final Fantasy fans wasn't because it didn't have the options for a person to play solo. It was because it's an online game that you have to continue paying for to play. The hurdles of soloing just knocked the number of folks that took the bite down more. Being an online game put it in the minority already, limited solo content just knocked the number down a bit.

AureliusSir wrote:
There's no rational reason why FFXIV should continue to only suit the minority of FF fans and MMO gamers. If the best argument people have against aspects of game design is that it would make it "too much like WoW," well, I'm sorry. That's not good enough.


FF fans sure but MMO gamers? The game doesn't cater to the minority of them. I'd argue that the game caters to the majority of ones that are the steadiest MMO gamers. Going to WoW, there are a lot of folks that play WoW but not many folks that would play an MMO other than it. I personally don't think WoW attracted more MMO fans, I think it attracted Warcraft fans. It explains to me why WoW has such a high subscriber rate but other games aren't getting the trickle effect.

At any rate, there is nothing wrong with making the game more friendly to solo, I never said it. In fact, I'd love more solo content because I don't necessarily have always have the time to sit down and aprt. However, I think the core is that folks, myself included, want the feel of a online Final Fantasy that was given to us by FFXI to be somewhat preserved in FFXIV, with improvements.
#117 Jun 08 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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****, many of the newer MMOs were created almost entirely as WOW clones in some shape or form. (AoC, WAR... too much WOW in those games)


AoC is far far removed from WoW. AoC has a very different combat system - though casters are similiar in the click > cast methodology, but that is about it. Gear is completely different as well, gear means very little in that game, this might change with an upcoming patch, but it is still no where near the inflation of wow.

Anyway, i hope you are not going to generalize the notion that "if you can solo, it is too much wow" because aside from that, and a tiered gear system that is about the only similarities in those games.
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#118 Jun 08 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
And I saw a holy war being waged between WOW and FFXI with you at the front of the charge and wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

He's not championing WoW. He's fighting against the ridiculous bias that WoW is somehow the devil.
Shazaamemt wrote:
****, many of the newer MMOs were created almost entirely as WOW clones in some shape or form. (AoC, WAR... too much WOW in those games).

This is a problem with viewpoint. WoW was a rather sharp break from previous MMORPGs. Previous games could not be said to be casual; friendly at all, involved very long level grinds, and were rigorously group oriented.

Blizzard came out with several new ideas that radically changed teh genra. Lotro and WArhammer aren't so much cloning WoW as they are following a new style of MMORPG. Racquetball and squash aren't clones and each other simply because they use a ball, racquet, and indoor court. They're more similar to each other than they are to tennis, but they still aren't clones. They're a different style of racquet sport.

If a game adds soloability then it isn't cloning WoW. This was an idea WOW can be said to have made popular, but it isn't a concept that Blizzard owns. If an MMO came out with 9 classes that played similarly to WoW's nine, then that's a clone. The idea of a hotbar isn't something Blizzard owns either. However, the races of tauren, draenei, and blood elf are a concept owned by Blizzard which can be copied.

People taking ridiculous connections and attributing elments that appear also appear in WoW as automatically making a game a WoW clone. It's silly.
#119 Jun 08 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
Allegory wrote:
Shazaamemt wrote:
And I saw a holy war being waged between WOW and FFXI with you at the front of the charge and wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

He's not championing WoW. He's fighting against the ridiculous bias that WoW is somehow the devil.
Shazaamemt wrote:
****, many of the newer MMOs were created almost entirely as WOW clones in some shape or form. (AoC, WAR... too much WOW in those games).

This is a problem with viewpoint. WoW was a rather sharp break from previous MMORPGs. Previous games could not be said to be casual; friendly at all, involved very long level grinds, and were rigorously group oriented.

Blizzard came out with several new ideas that radically changed teh genra. Lotro and WArhammer aren't so much cloning WoW as they are following a new style of MMORPG. Racquetball and squash aren't clones and each other simply because they use a ball, racquet, and indoor court. They're more similar to each other than they are to tennis, but they still aren't clones. They're a different style of racquet sport.

If a game adds soloability then it isn't cloning WoW. This was an idea WOW can be said to have made popular, but it isn't a concept that Blizzard owns. If an MMO came out with 9 classes that played similarly to WoW's nine, then that's a clone. The idea of a hotbar isn't something Blizzard owns either. However, the races of tauren, draenei, and blood elf are a concept owned by Blizzard which can be copied.

People taking ridiculous connections and attributing elments that appear also appear in WoW as automatically making a game a WoW clone. It's silly.


This is because most MMORPG's prior to WoW were created as EverQuest clones and did not deviate very far from the template that EQ provided. It's not difficult to see why this happened though. Prior to WoW, EQ was the top selling MMORPG and was viewed as the most successful. Of course competing companies wanted a piece of the MMORPG pie that Sony had served up... and they probably figured the best way to get a piece of that pie was to mimic EQ. I look at FFXI, for example, and see a LOT of EQ systems in place, specifically in party-centric content and raid content. Even XP loss upon death and possibly down-leveling are both carry-overs from EQ.

Now enter Blizzard and WoW. Blizzard also took some elements from EQ, but also created a lot of new systems. The end result is what we now see as WoW. Of important note, however, is WoW was designed and catered to a far different gaming audience than EQ and it's assorted clones. EQ was and still is considered to be a very hardcore game... requiring a great commitment in time and effort to accomplish things. WoW, on the other hand, is considered to be a very casual game... requiring very little commitment in time and effort to accomplish things. To put it bluntly... EQ is like Dungeons and Dragons and WoW is like Diablo. To truly enjoy Dungeons and Dragons, you had to make a LOT of decisions and you had to invest a LOT of time to your character in order to truly shine. On the reverse side of the coin, to truly enjoy Diablo, you make some decisions and spend a couple hours a day playing and you'll eventually see your character shine.

So now we see EQ and it's clones playing catchup to WoW and it's casual gaming appeal. Is it a surprise that WoW has generated so many clones? It's the same reason why EQ generated so many clones. Companies want a piece of the MMORPG pie that Sony first served up and then Blizzard served up. Since WoW is currently the most successful MMORPG on the market, it's not surprising to see clones popping up. It's just the nature of the beast. And just like Blizzard ended up taking the lions-share of the pie from Sony with WoW... it's entirely possible for another company to come along and take the lions-share of the pie from Blizzard. The key isn't in just making a clone... it's in making something different that caters to an audience that is currently being ignored. Right now Square-Enix has a good opportunity to do just this... and while it's entirely too soon to tell, the little bits of information being portioned out at interviews and Q&A's seem to support this logic.

I would imagine we'll find out more about FFXIV at Tokyo Game Show... since it's the last big game show of the year aside from Leipzig and TGS has classically been the show where Square Enix likes to do big showings of it's projects (each of FFXI's expansions where showed off in big ways at TGS and the last couple of Final Fantasy titles where showed off in big ways at TGS).
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#120 Jun 08 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'll paraphrase something I said in the Warhammer forums in a thread similar to this one:

"To the Mythic fans Mythic is God and Blizzard is the devil. According to them everything Mythic does is just and good and anything Blizzard does is either evil and wrong or copied from Mythic."

I wrote this to let people see how ridiculous their devotion to Mythic was and how incredibly harmful their bias against Blizzard was. Many of you dismiss everything WoW does simply because it is WoW and "WoW never does anything right". The funny thing is most of the FFXI players hate everything square does to FFXI and yet here they are saying they basically want FFXIV to be FFXI with updated graphics. Talk about stockholm syndrome.
#121 Jun 08 2009 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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I haven't read through this whole thread, but I just wanted to say my piece on how I feel about FFXIV and how it will compare to other MMO's (including both WoW and FFXI).

FFXI is the only MMO I have played with any heart at all. I got to load up WoW once to see it, and I did some testing in LotR... but by all standards, FFXI is my online MMORPG. That being said, I would love for FFXIV to have a similar feel, but I don't want it to just be FFXI with new graphics (I want more storage too :P j/k). I would love the familiarity, but I want something new and interesting to keep me entertained.

So far I like what I am hearing about the game... that it will offer the casual gamer more options. I don't think I would have stayed in FFXI if I hadn't been offered the freedom to play as much as I wanted to when it first came out. Starting again with the GF recently has opened my eyes to just how much there is to accomplish in early FFXI... maximizing storage, unlocking jobs, maxing fame... all these things that I accomplished so many years ago that took me so long to do at the time are just a distant memory. Another example is RSE armor. I had totally forgetten about specific days/times/zones that you need in order to do the quest! Things like this don't even cross my mind in todays game.

FFXI definitely has its good and bad points, just like every MMO. I would hope that SE sees the good, hears the voice of the player base and holds on to those things that will allow it to still feel like a Final Fantasy game. At the same time, I hope they are smart enough to pull ideas from other MMO's and refrain from using ideas that have gotten poor feedback. As a next gen MMORPG, I think it is safe to assume that SE won't totally drop the ball on it. Will if Compete with WoW? Probably. Will it put WoW out of business? Doubtful. I hope this game finds the same niche that FFXI did. Too popular and you attract a very juevenile player base... too hard and you get a couple die hard gamers and nothing else. FFXI was not harder than any other MMO, but it took a lot more patience and understanding to learn the game... and that can drive a lot of people away.

my final thought is that without friends and a strong community, I doubt FFXIV will get anywhere. Unless SE decides to actually promote this game a little. I know that my shifting from FFXI to FFXIV will rely on my friends in game doing the same. Some say they will, others say they will probably stay with FFXI and quit when it becomes stagnant. Guess I'll have to see what happens in a year or so.
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#122 Jun 08 2009 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Who the **** are Archavon and Emilon????


Loot pinatas ;D


Indeed. I can't believe that they had to tweak the Emalon fight so that the charged mob went super-huge right away. It's like people couldn't tab to the one with the buff or something. >_>
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#123 Jun 08 2009 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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Shouta wrote:
When the person stops using another game as the base example for how another game can be improved? Think about it, the suggestions being pointed out are done in a manner that's pretty antagonistic (WoW does this better than FFXI, FFXI should adopt something like WoW, etc) manner. So actions and words don't match, making folks suspicious of what is being said or untrusting. Again back to my first point, if someone wants to discuss improving the game, do it in a manner focused on the game itself, what it's done, and what the devs are known for rather than comparing it to another game.


You see it as someone using another game as the base for an example for how another game can be improved. I see it as using another game to illustrate a concept. There's a difference.

Quote:
My analogy was for the situation here, not the game. At any rate, it won't matter anyway. The development team won't listen to us anyway.


Whether your analogy was for the situation here or for the game, it's a bad analogy. These are not your forums. FFXIV is not your game. If you're going to get butthurt because you feel a sense of entitlement to something where no entitlement exists, that's your problem. Players of other MMOs beyond FFXI and even people who have never played an MMO at all are no less entitled to voice their thoughts on what they'd like to see in FFXIV than you are, and they're fully entitled to reference whatever they like as the basis for their opinions. If you take issue with the concept, that's fine. Address the concept. An intelligent person would address the concept within the scope of the influence that it would have on themselves and/or their peer group, not simply on the grounds of where else the concept has been implemented.

Quote:
The reason why FFXI didn't attract more Final Fantasy fans wasn't because it didn't have the options for a person to play solo. It was because it's an online game that you have to continue paying for to play. The hurdles of soloing just knocked the number of folks that took the bite down more. Being an online game put it in the minority already, limited solo content just knocked the number down a bit.


I made no reference as to why FFXI didn't attract more Final Fantasy fans. I pointed out how absurd it is to suggest that more than a base handful of concepts would have to be carried over from FFXI to FFXIV in order for FFXIV to fall within the genre of Final Fantasy.

Quote:
FF fans sure but MMO gamers? The game doesn't cater to the minority of them. I'd argue that the game caters to the majority of ones that are the steadiest MMO gamers. Going to WoW, there are a lot of folks that play WoW but not many folks that would play an MMO other than it. I personally don't think WoW attracted more MMO fans, I think it attracted Warcraft fans. It explains to me why WoW has such a high subscriber rate but other games aren't getting the trickle effect.


Your qualifiers don't shift the minority status of hardcore MMO gamers. More to the point, there's absolutely no reason for a developer to target an MMO product to a narrow scope of potential customers. There are no shortage of options to provide the vast majority of MMO players with something that appeals to them without shutting out any one specific group.
#124 Jun 08 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Default
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I'm sorry to say that I read through this whole thread.

With that being said let me say that Aurelius is the most stubborn sob I've ever seen. Many times have people from the ffxi community tried to give him some insight as to why people feel the need to defend ffxi, and why we don't want to see wow in the new game.

Let me some up his whole argument in very broad strokes

"Be more open minded. Yet don't expect the same respect from me in retaliation. In fact I will insult and openly mock anyone that disagrees with me. I fail to realize I'm being a hypocrite by being closed minded in an argument in which I ask for the opposite."

Anyone who says XIV is not a successor to XI is being silly and grasping at straws to support their argument.

Why must the ffxi community openly accept people who want to change what we've come to love? The question was asked "how would the wow community react to a thread saying things ffxi does right". The fact is very few ffxi players would bother with actually doing such a thing.

Whether a WOW 2 game was announced or not.

Why?

The ffxi community is happy playing ffxi. We're not worried about wow, and what wow does right or wrong. It caters to a more casual player, that's fine for them. We would expect the wow 2 game to be much of the sime. So we would stay away. We know what we like, and we like our ffxi.

We like putting the hours in, we like feeling rewarded for completing missions, or gaining levels. There is something to be said for dinging level 75 and having the group say "w00t, grats!" etc. Opposed to just going out and doing it all your lonesome. (sorry bsts we still love you!)

Afterall this is a massive MULTIPLAYER online rpg. Key word being multiplayer.

So, how are we being close minded by saying "hey, we like this game. We'd like the successor to be more of what we like. And less of what we don't"

There is always room for improvement sure. And the ffxi community has never been shy about speaking their minds about what we like and what we don't.

Yes, we want IV to be open to everyone. If you play wow and you want to come over. Sure. We'll open our arms and accept you. Just please respect the fact that we've played the previous installment for years, and we like what we like. Don't try to tell us what the other game does better. And if you must don't attack us because we hunker down and defend what we've come to enjoy.

In my opinion SE should cater to their installed fanbase first. And the group they hope to draw second. What happens if they release a came catered towards casual players and the majority of ffxi players decide they don't like it. And all go back to ffxi. And the wow players decide it's nice, but are more comfortable on wow and go back there. Where does that leave XIV? it leaves it as a failure.

Both ffxi and wow both are niche' gaming to perfection. Let's leave it at that. Respect the fact that we want something with a Final Fantasy Online branding to be more of what we love with some tweaks here and there. Afterall you wouldn't want a WOW 2 to be ffxi now would you?
#125 Jun 08 2009 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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Wrip wrote:
With that being said let me say that Aurelius is the most stubborn sob I've ever seen. Many times have people from the ffxi community tried to give him some insight as to why people feel the need to defend ffxi, and why we don't want to see wow in the new game.


Naw, I only poke fun at people when they can't seem to address the issues or form a cogent argument.

Quote:
Let me try to some sum up his whole argument in very broad strokes


FTFY

Quote:
"Be more open minded. Yet don't expect the same respect from me in retaliation. In fact I will insult and openly mock anyone that disagrees with me. I fail to realize I'm being a hypocrite by being closed minded in an argument in which I ask for the opposite."


Not quite, but it was a good try.

Quote:
Anyone who says XIV is not a successor to XI is being silly and grasping at straws to support their argument.


Subjective assessment is subjective. What defines "successor"?

Quote:
Why must the ffxi community openly accept people who want to change what we've come to love?


Well, I guess the best answer to your question would be that they don't. BTW, the Alla forums for the FFXI community are here. This is a forum for the FFXIV community. If you want to argue with people for going to your community and telling you what changes they think should be made to the game you play, follow the link and find them there.

Quote:
Why?


I DUNNO, BUT I'M SURE YOU'RE GONNA TELL US!! YEEHAW!!

Quote:
The ffxi community is happy playing ffxi.


Good. But then...what the **** do they care about what happens in FFXIV?

Quote:
We're not worried about wow, and what wow does right or wrong. It caters to a more casual player, that's fine for them. We would expect the wow 2 game to be much of the sime. So we would stay away. We know what we like, and we like our ffxi.


Faaaaantastic.

Quote:
We like putting the hours in, we like feeling rewarded for completing missions, or gaining levels. There is something to be said for dinging level 75 and having the group say "w00t, grats!" etc. Opposed to just going out and doing it all your lonesome. (sorry bsts we still love you!)


Wonderful.

Quote:
Afterall this is a massive MULTIPLAYER online rpg. Key word being multiplayer.


Absolutely. Of course, depending on who you talk to, multiplayer could mean simply that you share a virtual world with multiple people. Now, if it was an MGORPG (Massively Group-oriented Online Role Playing Game) you'd get no argument from me.

Quote:
So, how are we being close minded by saying "hey, we like this game. We'd like the successor to be more of what we like. And less of what we don't"


Because the people I take issue with aren't saying that. They're saying that they want the game they want to the exclusion of everyone else, and there's a difference.

Quote:
There is always room for improvement sure. And the ffxi community has never been shy about speaking their minds about what we like and what we don't.


Yes, and the FFXI community has never been shy about claiming to like something that they really don't like, or claiming to know something about something they've never experienced. I know, because I used to be one of them.

Quote:
Yes, we want IV to be open to everyone. If you play wow and you want to come over. Sure. We'll open our arms and accept you. Just please respect the fact that we've played the previous installment for years, and we like what we like. Don't try to tell us what the other game does better. And if you must don't attack us because we hunker down and defend what we've come to enjoy.


If it was a case of live and let live, it would be a non-issue. But once again, it's not. It's a case of a narrow minded group of people (or more specifically, segment within a group of people) who can't fathom the idea that you can have elements of other MMOs in the new game and still preserve everything it is about FFXI that you enjoy. That is being open minded. "We like what we like and you're welcome to join us as long as you only want to do what we like to do" is not.

[quote]In my opinion SE should cater to their installed fanbase first.[/quote]

Their installed fan base, at least as far as North America goes, started to develop with a game for the Nintendo Entertainment System called Final Fantasy. It evolved with subsequent releases across a variety of console platforms. FFXI is only a very small segment of that fan base, and there are unique aspects of FFXI that many of us who loved the other games in the FF universe could just as happily do without, regardless of what other MMOs are doing.

Final Fantasy is much, much more than FFXI, and you'd do well to get that straight.

[quote]And the group they hope to draw second. What happens if they release a came catered towards casual players and the majority of ffxi players decide they don't like it.[/quote]

Then my hope would be that the majority of FFXI players find a game that they do like.

[quote]And all go back to ffxi.[/quote]

That would be an option.

[quote]And the wow players decide it's nice, but are more comfortable on wow and go back there.[/quote]

That would also be an option.

[quote]Where does that leave XIV? it leaves it as a failure.[/quote]

No, it would leave it a game played by people who enjoy it for what it is, while the people who enjoy FFXI for what it is play FFXI, and the people who enjoy WoW for what it is play WoW.

[quote]Both ffxi and wow both are niche' gaming to perfection. Let's leave it at that. Respect the fact that we want something with a Final Fantasy Online branding to be more of what we love with some tweaks here and there. Afterall you wouldn't want a WOW 2 to be ffxi now would you?[/quote]

Well unfortunately, form the information we've received from the devs, your "tweaks" are shaping up to be more like "overhauls" with some similar elements left intact so that it feels familiar, but by no means the same.


Edited, Jun 8th 2009 8:14pm by AureliusSir
#126 Jun 08 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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And heres the problem with you ffxiers. Noone is arguing about what should or shouldnt be in xi we arent at least. You like it thats great have fun we all want you too.

We're talking about whats going to be in 14 and like it or not theres some aspects of WoW Square should look to adopt if they really mean it when they say its geared more towards casuals. NOw I am not currently a WoW player. Why? personally I dont like wow for some of the reasons previously mentioned. I have played WoW. And despite my own personal feelings about WoW (negative) I can see where FFXIV (read 14 not 11) would benefit from a few of the things WoW did well every mmo could learn alot from wow both in what to do and what not to do.

P.S. AureliusSir makes alot of sense to many people.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 10:18pm by mezlabor

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 10:19pm by mezlabor
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#127 Jun 08 2009 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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This is ridiculous. Stop being so concerned about what does or doesn't follow WoW. All I care about is that they take the things I liked about FFXI (atmosphere, art style, quality of world and immersion, and the fact that it was Final Fantasy) and put them in a new game with modern MMORPG features that are much more accessible.

I don't think the game should be 'quicker', I just think SquareEnix should drop in more features that help your average, non-FFXI fan appreciate the rich style of world Square is so good at development. Some of those might come from WoW, some might come from other MMO's, some might come from non-MMO's and even other Final Fantasies. Whatever, doesn't matter. As long as Square knows what was special about their previous MMO and, instead of changing that, improves it and also makes it so more people can appreciate it.
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#128 Jun 08 2009 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
I am glad to see that they will not be making a wow clone out of this one. Honestly SE doesn't have it in them to clone a competitor. I am looking forward to XIV and adding the new features that come with it.

I used to play XI back in the day and got tired of the entire full time party system (though I heard through friends its a little more solo friendly). I am greatly encouraged by the announcement from Komoto and Tanaka that it will be more friendly to causal players who prefer to solo.

One of my biggest things is that they allow players to create mods (like blizzard). I never really saw anything wrong with having a simple exp bar or even displaying our currency on the main ui. I was always annoyed when it came time to check the exp or how much gil I had. I used windower at one point and stopped when three of my friends got banned for it.

Side note:
So wordaen that chest cannon has the power to reach cross forums as well?
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#129 Jun 08 2009 at 9:14 PM Rating: Good
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The SimpleMajority of Doom wrote:
One of my biggest things is that they allow players to create mods (like blizzard). I never really saw anything wrong with having a simple exp bar or even displaying our currency on the main ui. I was always annoyed when it came time to check the exp or how much gil I had. I used windower at one point and stopped when three of my friends got banned for it.


I would like to see that option as well, but I'm not getting my hopes up. Not only has SE taken a pretty aggressive stance against custom addons in the past, they're releasing FFXIV for both PC and PS3. I'm no expert, but I think that the additional difficulty of creating addons for the PS3 would put PC players at a significant advantage for a lot of content (ie. could you imagine raiding where half the raid couldn't use Omen or DBM because they're on a console system?)

Quote:
Side note:
So wordaen that chest cannon has the power to reach cross forums as well?


I think he pulled out the orbital cannon for that one ;D
#130 Jun 08 2009 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
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the only thing i would take from wow into a ff game would be the amount of quests and they quality in gameplay for it
i mean wow does stuff like putting you in a costume and let you infiltrate among enemies
makes you fight on dragon's back or on the wing of a plane and much more >.> if i picture this stuff done in final fantasy quality it sound so great.
i know ffxi had lots of missions which are very good but they are a pain to do most of the time and takes away the fun
and there is a lot of funny content, i miss it so much from ff8 it pretty much vanished :(
#131 Jun 09 2009 at 12:23 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
You see it as someone using another game as the base for an example for how another game can be improved. I see it as using another game to illustrate a concept. There's a difference.


You could easily illustrate the concept without referencing another game, so why not do that?

AureliusSir wrote:
Whether your analogy was for the situation here or for the game, it's a bad analogy. These are not your forums. FFXIV is not your game. If you're going to get butthurt because you feel a sense of entitlement to something where no entitlement exists, that's your problem. Players of other MMOs beyond FFXI and even people who have never played an MMO at all are no less entitled to voice their thoughts on what they'd like to see in FFXIV than you are, and they're fully entitled to reference whatever they like as the basis for their opinions. If you take issue with the concept, that's fine. Address the concept. An intelligent person would address the concept within the scope of the influence that it would have on themselves and/or their peer group, not simply on the grounds of where else the concept has been implemented.


I just realized something. From which portal are you accessing this forum? I'm accessing it from ffxi.allakhazam.com. I have a feeling a lot of folks are doing that as well while others are not. I recall clicking on another link to get this forum but with a different link and layout.

That might explain something. As I'm looking at it now, the FFXIV forum is hosted on a FFXI fansite. That makes the discussion in "our" house so to speak. If you aren't viewing it from there, then it wouldn't be.

Also, I didn't say you weren't entitled to your opinion. You're the one that put those words in my mouth. I'm explaining why folks are being defensive. You're free to discuss any ideas. However, I did say if you want to be a lot more effective, then you (as in folks in general, to be clear) could change the approach to discussion.

AureliusSir wrote:
I made no reference as to why FFXI didn't attract more Final Fantasy fans. I pointed out how absurd it is to suggest that more than a base handful of concepts would have to be carried over from FFXI to FFXIV in order for FFXIV to fall within the genre of Final Fantasy.


My bad on that. However, I don't think it's absurd that a few base ideas need to be carried over to make it fall into line as Final Fantasy online game, as most want. They say FF but they mean FFXI.

AureliusSir wrote:
Your qualifiers don't shift the minority status of hardcore MMO gamers. More to the point, there's absolutely no reason for a developer to target an MMO product to a narrow scope of potential customers. There are no shortage of options to provide the vast majority of MMO players with something that appeals to them without shutting out any one specific group.


There are folks that are into MMOs and and there are not. I think FFXI does a fine job of catering to the folks that would play an MMO game, regardless of what trappings, franchise, or setting it does. Does it cater to folks that wouldn't play an MMO normally? Definitely not. That's what I'm talking about. At least as I see it, we're both right. We're just talking about different things unless you'd like to clarify.

I didn't say they should ignore a potential audience. There are potential reasons but it'd have to be a really specific case for a developer to do so (speaking in general, not just MMO devs).
#132 Jun 09 2009 at 1:29 AM Rating: Default
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I only read the first page of posts in this topic, mainly because the argument seemed to be going in circles. Here is my view of things...

Neither FFXI OR WoW is perfect. I've not really played a lot of WoW myself, mainly due to the graphical style/atmosphere. To me WoW is very western culture influenced, and I am a big fan of Japanese games, so it just didn't click with me. But from what I can gather off of non-bias friends who did play WoW and NOT FFXI, they have communicated to me that while the game is great, it does get boring easily. However, I could say the exact same thing about FFXI.

I keep reading people making the comment that WoW is "too easy". Ahem, if you do not mind me pointing out, FFXI is also "too easy" provided you have the right connections/enough helpers. "Oh but you have to socialise for that, that is the point!". Socialise you say? I hate to tell you this, but I'm one of the most social people you will find on FFXI, but just because I do not play it all the time, I rarely get the same level of help as other people. On FFXI, 99% of the time you are not valued by the person that you are, or how capable you are of socialising. Nope, it is all about how many hours per day you can offer to the other person. I for one definitely do not want to see this dragged into FFXIV.

Don't get me wrong, I've met a few really really awesome friends on FFXI, that most likely I wouldn't have met in WoW. My WoW friends were shocked when I explained to them how 'social' FFXI is. It was a completely foreign idea. But please don't try to tell me that FFXI is some special community that embodies how people in MMO's should socialise. People on WoW silent they may be, but I've met some of the most awkward & difficult 'social' people ever in my life on FFXI.

Going back to actual difficulty of battles, I hate to be the bearer of bad news on that too. But in FFXI, this 'strategy' people keep talking about that is required, basically involves the usage of a handful of jobs out of twenty! I've hated that in FFXI, there were many things I couldn't do in the past, even with my best FFXI friend, simply because I didn't have one of those select jobs that are required for every freakin fight. Once again, please don't tell me that that system is real strategy, because it clearly isn't. In the real world, an army does not create 20 different types of unit, and then only use a handful of them at all times.

The bottom line is FFXI is not perfect but also WoW is not perfect or worse as other people here seem to imply. Honestly, I don't really want either of the games to form a big part of what FFXIV becomes. Both games are really old now, and I want something fresh and bold. Bring on 2010, bring on a game that shakes things up!
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#133 Jun 09 2009 at 4:02 AM Rating: Good
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I think he pulled out the orbital cannon for that one ;D

Possibly a secret upgrade during the surgery so he could gain access to the orbital ban cannon if needed?
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#134 Jun 09 2009 at 4:15 AM Rating: Decent
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neocronNV, Guardian of the Glade wrote:
Of important note, however, is WoW was designed and catered to a far different gaming audience than EQ and it's assorted clones.
The lowest common denominator.
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#135 Jun 09 2009 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
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Shouta wrote:
I just realized something. From which portal are you accessing this forum? I'm accessing it from ffxi.allakhazam.com. I have a feeling a lot of folks are doing that as well while others are not. I recall clicking on another link to get this forum but with a different link and layout.

That might explain something. As I'm looking at it now, the FFXIV forum is hosted on a FFXI fansite. That makes the discussion in "our" house so to speak. If you aren't viewing it from there, then it wouldn't be

I don't know about the other guy, but I'm accessing this forum from Zam.com, which is Allakhazam's new site which covers all MMOs.

Technically... This entire forum is hosted on ZAM Media, which came out of a company merger three years ago, and is now taking it's namesake from Allakhazam. Technically, you are in OUR house, you just aren't aware of it.

ZAM Media wants to transfer everyone over to the new unified portal, they just haven't deleted Allakhazam.com out of not wanting to upset people who might not like the new layout.

Since you are on Allakhazam right now, let me point you to something you may not have noticed... Up on the right hand side under the banner? See that little button that says "Network Sites"? Yeah, that's been there for around eight years. Now scroll down to the bottom of your forums? See where it says "Copywrite ZAM"? That's been there for about three years.

On that note, Allakhazam prior to being bought and restructured, Allakhazam STILL wasn't even an FFXI fansite. It was an Everquest fansite, that spread to encapsulate other MMOs, including FFXI. And then, it broke out entirely and they are trying to become ZAM.com now.
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#136 Jun 09 2009 at 5:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I think OP is saying what most FFXIer's are thinking. They don't want FFXIV to be WoW. They want it to be FFXI but with prettier graphics.

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#137 Jun 09 2009 at 5:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Wrip wrote:

In my opinion SE should cater to their installed fanbase first. And the group they hope to draw second. What happens if they release a came catered towards casual players and the majority of ffxi players decide they don't like it. And all go back to ffxi. And the wow players decide it's nice, but are more comfortable on wow and go back there. Where does that leave XIV? it leaves it as a failure.


Of course that’s what SE has done. Also they said they will provide service to reserve your character name from FFXI to FF14. And you will also see that there won’t be any PvP system. The only thing they have said is that they will emphasize more on solo friendly content. If you translate that into more than in FFXI then that is not a big problem really. All we need to do now is to wait and see to what extend SE have implemented this solo friendliness. I think it only refers to skill/leveling up, and probably solo quests that yields skill up/levels, but thats about it.
#138 Jun 09 2009 at 5:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ease is definitely not one of WoW's major flaws. It does have a big one, but it isn't difficulty.

Sure, leveling up in WoW is really easy. Beyond that, however, it's only as easy as you want it to be.

If you choose to just dilly dally around doing daily quests, fishing, and running the occasional heroic dungeon, then yeah, it's easy. Progression raiding, otoh, is anything but easy. Even there it can vary alot in difficulty depending on how hard-core you and your guild are.

Is that so different than FFXI? Is leveling up in an XP party difficult? Nope. It takes alot longer, but it isn't *hard.* Does it get alot harder depending on what you decide to do in the endgame? Yep.

I've played both games, and i really loved FFXI, but it truly isn't any harder than WoW... it's just more time consuming. Some people like that, some people don't. Alot of accomplishments in FFXI do feel more rewarding when you finally finish them due to the time you had to put in, but was it really worth the investment? I've enjoyed BOTH games alot, something alot of people don't seem to be able to do.

I don't think that being "too easy" is one of WoW's flaws. In my opinion, it's biggest flaw, by far, is lack of diversity in end-game content. If you want to push for the best gear and experience the newest content in WoW you have one choice... raid.... alot.
#139 Jun 09 2009 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Shouta wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
You see it as someone using another game as the base for an example for how another game can be improved. I see it as using another game to illustrate a concept. There's a difference.


You could easily illustrate the concept without referencing another game, so why not do that?


It doesn't matter whether I reference other games or not. An FFXI fanboi sees a concept that resembles another game and they bash it for no other reason than it would make FFXIV "too much like WoW." WoW gets mentioned regularly as reference for general concepts, but it's not just the WoW players making the initial reference.

Quote:
I just realized something. From which portal are you accessing this forum? I'm accessing it from ffxi.allakhazam.com. I have a feeling a lot of folks are doing that as well while others are not. I recall clicking on another link to get this forum but with a different link and layout.

That might explain something. As I'm looking at it now, the FFXIV forum is hosted on a FFXI fansite. That makes the discussion in "our" house so to speak. If you aren't viewing it from there, then it wouldn't be.


Take a look at the URL. When you're on this site, you're at www.zam.com, not ffxi.allakhazam.com. Look at the top of your screen when browsing the forums. You'll see something like

ZAM Forums > Game List > Final Fantasy XIV > Final Fantasy XIV Forum

No mention of FFXI there.

Not to mention that the devs have never said that FFXIV is for FFXI fans, or that FFXIV was developed from the ground up as the successor to FFXI. FFXIV does not meet the criteria of a successor...namely, that it replace its predecessor. FFXI will still be around and will still have a development budget long after FFXIV goes live. FFXIV is not being made just for you and the FFXI population. It's being made for everyone, with an eye to Final Fantasy fans. Note that there's no "Online" in "Final Fantasy fans." If your notion of Final Fantasy is restricted to FF Online, that's a **** shame. You missed out on a lot of great stuff.

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Also, I didn't say you weren't entitled to your opinion. You're the one that put those words in my mouth. I'm explaining why folks are being defensive. You're free to discuss any ideas. However, I did say if you want to be a lot more effective, then you (as in folks in general, to be clear) could change the approach to discussion.


And I'm saying that the defensive whining is not more than butthurt QQ. Defend butthurt QQ all you want; it doesn't mean that I should feel compelled to censor myself because a bunch of insecure FFXI fanbois are terrified that their way of life is being threatened.

If you like FFXI the way it is, then continue to enjoy it as such. If you're intrigued/excited about FFXIV, fantastic! Just get used to the idea that it's not just FFXI fans that are excited, and that neither FFXIV nor FFXIV discussion forums are your domain to be infringed upon by the unwashed masses from outside the FFXI fanbase.

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I made no reference as to why FFXI didn't attract more Final Fantasy fans. I pointed out how absurd it is to suggest that more than a base handful of concepts would have to be carried over from FFXI to FFXIV in order for FFXIV to fall within the genre of Final Fantasy.


My bad on that. However, I don't think it's absurd that a few base ideas need to be carried over to make it fall into line as Final Fantasy online game, as most want. They say FF but they mean FFXI.


Absolutely. A few ideas. If you read what the fanbois are saying, they want an FFXI clone with a few tweaks and updates. If that's all they want, they're going to be sorely, sorely disappointed. If they're prepared to accept a game with a few concepts carried over from FFXI and implemented in a substantially different game, there's a chance that FFXIV will be their next MMO of choice. It's rather arrogant for FFXI fans to lay claim to the Final Fantasy legacy. FFXIV began as development without inclusion of an online factor. The online factor was added as the concept evolved. If you look at the concepts that have existed throughout the Final Fantasy series, starting with the first one and carrying forward to FFX-2 (or FFXIII, if you want to take it that far) you'll see that there are only a small handful of key ideas that "need" to be carried over for a new game to feel like a part of the FF universe.
The similarity of the races between FFXI and FFXIV is an example of a bone the developers are throwing to the FFXI community to make FFXIV seem more familiar. Beyond that, if you've got certain key spells and abilities in the game in conjunction with chocobos, moogles, airships, and Cid, wrapped around a compelling story...well, you've got yourself an FF game. Note that there's no mention in there of particular gameplay mechanics.

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There are folks that are into MMOs and and there are not. I think FFXI does a fine job of catering to the folks that would play an MMO game, regardless of what trappings, franchise, or setting it does. Does it cater to folks that wouldn't play an MMO normally? Definitely not. That's what I'm talking about. At least as I see it, we're both right. We're just talking about different things unless you'd like to clarify.


No, FFXI only caters to a very small segment of people who would play an MMO.
#140 Jun 09 2009 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
Take a look at the URL. When you're on this site, you're at www.zam.com, not ffxi.allakhazam.com. Look at the top of your screen when browsing the forums. You'll see something like

ZAM Forums > Game List > Final Fantasy XIV > Final Fantasy XIV Forum

No mention of FFXI there.

Protip: Both ZAM.com and ffxi.allakhazam.com are using the same forums.

In fact, AureliusSir, here is a link to your post in the ffxi.allakhazam.com forums.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=124406831245597551;page=3;howmany=50#m1244561696225897291

And for you Shouta, here is a link to your post on the ZAM.com forums.
http://www.zam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=124406831245597551;page=3;howmany=50#m124453583054399589

Now both of you stop being ******

EDIT: Don't click the links. Copy and paste them into your browser. Otherwise the forum will just redirect you to the post on your own forum.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 12:01pm by Karelyn
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#141 Jun 09 2009 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Take a look at the URL. When you're on this site, you're at www.zam.com, not ffxi.allakhazam.com. Look at the top of your screen when browsing the forums. You'll see something like

ZAM Forums > Game List > Final Fantasy XIV > Final Fantasy XIV Forum

No mention of FFXI there.

Protip: Both ZAM.com and ffxi.allakhazam.com are using the same forums.

In fact, AureliusSir, here is a link to your post in the ffxi.allakhazam.com forums.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=124406831245597551;page=3;howmany=50#m1244561696225897291


That link redirects to ZAM.com.

Edit to add: Even if you go to ffxi.allakhazam.com and access the FFXIV forums from there, it's still not in the FFXI forums...the location header is still the same with no mention of FFXI.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 9:00am by AureliusSir
#142 Jun 09 2009 at 7:59 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Karelyn wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Take a look at the URL. When you're on this site, you're at www.zam.com, not ffxi.allakhazam.com. Look at the top of your screen when browsing the forums. You'll see something like

ZAM Forums > Game List > Final Fantasy XIV > Final Fantasy XIV Forum

No mention of FFXI there.

Protip: Both ZAM.com and ffxi.allakhazam.com are using the same forums.

In fact, AureliusSir, here is a link to your post in the ffxi.allakhazam.com forums.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=124406831245597551;page=3;howmany=50#m1244561696225897291


That link redirects to ZAM.com.
Oh really?

Screenshot

Now will you little kids stop waving your little epeens around until your esacks drop?
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#143 Jun 09 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
Karelyn wrote:
In fact, AureliusSir, here is a link to your post in the ffxi.allakhazam.com forums.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=124406831245597551;page=3;howmany=50#m1244561696225897291


That link redirects to ZAM.com.

That is truly facinating. ZAM Media apparently redirecting ffxi.allakhazm links posted in their forum back into their new main website.

Don't clink the link this time, instead copy and paste the URL into a new Tab in Firefox.
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#144 Jun 09 2009 at 8:01 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:

Oh really?

Screenshot

Now will you little kids stop waving your little epeens around until your esacks drop?


It redirected to ZAM.com for me. But check the edit in my post above. It may be accessed through ffxi.alla, but it's still not the FFXI forums.
#145 Jun 09 2009 at 8:03 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
It redirected to ZAM.com for me. But check the edit in my post above. It may be accessed through ffxi.alla, but it's still not the FFXI forums.

Apparently your signature is accurate. You are still a noob.
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#146 Jun 09 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Karelyn wrote:
In fact, AureliusSir, here is a link to your post in the ffxi.allakhazam.com forums.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=124406831245597551;page=3;howmany=50#m1244561696225897291


That link redirects to ZAM.com.

That is truly facinating. ZAM Media apparently redirecting ffxi.allakhazm links posted in their forum back into their new main website.

Don't clink the link this time, instead copy and paste the URL into a new Tab in Firefox.


Check the header at the top of the page when you access the FFXIV forum through ffxi.alla.

Allakhazam's Forums > Game List > Final Fantasy XIV > Final Fantasy XIV Forum

The only difference between that header and the one I see is that mine starts with ZAM Forums, the other starts with Allakhazam's forums. Sneaky redirects aside, the main issue remains. These are not the FFXI forums.
#147 Jun 09 2009 at 8:07 AM Rating: Good
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Regardless of where/how you're viewing this, the bottom line is, this is a board for FFXIV, not FFXI, and there's no reason non-FFXI players can't come in and speculate with the everyone else. There's no reason they can't provide some suggestions about what they think might make the game a little better. And has been said, few if any have suggested making it into a WoW clone, but there's no reason that certain aspects of other MMOs can't be considered when making this new game.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 1:07pm by Raymund

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 1:08pm by Raymund
#148 Jun 09 2009 at 10:18 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Regardless of where/how you're viewing this, the bottom line is, this is a board for FFXIV, not FFXI, and there's no reason non-FFXI players can't come in and speculate with the everyone else. There's no reason they can't provide some suggestions about what they think might make the game a little better. And has been said, few if any have suggested making it into a WoW clone, but there's no reason that certain aspects of other MMOs can't be considered when making this new game.


Funny you should say that, I feel the same way.


Yet everytime someone tries to say that maybe something from FFXI should make its way into the game Aurelius seems to be right there waiting to blast it down because WOW did it better. Then he adds an insult. Then he adds a list of why WOW is not wrong for doing whatever system FFXI had differently.

If we really want to have a better new game, then let's not ignore the things that FFXI did better than any other MMO.

Aurelius, make your personal attacks now.
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#149 Jun 09 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Yet everytime someone tries to say that maybe something from FFXI should make its way into the game Aurelius seems to be right there waiting to blast it down because WOW did it better.


Example please.
#150 Jun 09 2009 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
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OrsonBastokChampion wrote:
Is it just me or shouldn't we just make two stickied threads "Rumors and speculation" and another "Suggestions to SE." Honestly at this point there's really very little for anything else. It just turns into retards like the OP making wild speculation and generally just starting a useless thread. Just would make it easier that way any real info doesn't get buried by the spamtards.


QFT!
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#151 Jun 09 2009 at 10:59 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
Quote:
Yet everytime someone tries to say that maybe something from FFXI should make its way into the game Aurelius seems to be right there waiting to blast it down because WOW did it better.


Example please.


Haha ;D I think it’s more fun to blast AureliusSir in an argument type of discussion then to flatly deny him to express his thoughts and ideas. I do agree that some of his ideas don’t suit the FFXI community at all, but he has made some good points as well. This is where the power of the mind and the pencil (in this case the keyboard) will shine ^^. If you think he is wrong just puncture his arguments like he punctures yours;D Of course, this will lead to a "flame" like discussion sometimes, but what the heck, I have 18 hours of free time each day to spend on these forums until FF14 is released so I have all the time in world :D
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