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Scrapping a level system altogetherFollow

#1 Jun 03 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm probably going to show my age here when I say that I think it would be interesting if by a focus on the "growth of the character" Tanaka meant that there would be no level system involved, which was the old school way that Ultima Online did it. IIRC, the focus was on enhancing your character. You'd simply play your character, pick a skill (mine was Archery), and hone that. You'd dungeon crawl for a chance at a rare item that eventually broke on you and in general, you just enjoyed playing in the world.

I know it's probably hard to imagine a game without the grind. Since UO, I've played EverQuest, Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Vanguard, and EverQuest II. None of these games ever went back to what was a very simple, yet crucial aspect of what made Ultima Online such pure fun.

I'd be really interested to hear what people think of it, since for many of you, FFXI or WoW was your first MMO.
#2 Jun 03 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I suggested (mostly in jest) in another thread that I would love to see something like a sphare grid (ala FFX) for character development. Instead of killing things for xp that lets you earn levels which allow you to use more powerful spells/abilities, you instead kill things for "xp" that earns you points...each point lets you move one space on a massive grid. Every (or almost every) space on that grid has a 'node' that is tied to a particular stat/ability (ie. HP, MP, Str, different tiers of familiar spells, etc.). You then use "spheres" (common drop from mobs) to activate those nodes and gain the benefit they offer. The way the grid is laid out, you can follow whatever path you want; you can follow a path that creates a familiar FFXI job or you can move around and pick up a variety of abilities for a more rounded (see also: hybrid) character. The potential is limited only by how much time you're willing to invest earning points to move around the grid, and it's something that could be very easily expanded with future content releases.

Another option would be along the lines of what you mentioned and similar to what SE used in The Last Remnant where you gain skill and learn new abilities based on the weapons/abilities you use the most and your actual "job" title changes based on your stats/abilities.

Regardless of how they implement it, it was exciting to read the part about how they want to implement a lot of things that haven't been done in any MMO before. So exciting ;D
#3 Jun 03 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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I do like that idea, being good at a job because you are actually good at it; not because your level says you are.
#4 Jun 03 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would like to see a system that is a little beyond *Gather together a healer, tank, some randoms dds, and then kill bats, crawlers, or beetles for the next 6 hours."

#5 Jun 03 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
FFII basically did this too and I think they didn't like it since it was never seen nor heard from again. It does open up a lot of different possibilities for player customization though.

Personally, I do like having at least class templates to start from so jobs are varied.

Here's a variation from an old MUD back in the day:

You start as one of three base classes: Scholar, Warrior, or Rogue. Based on that you get your primary skills. Then you have 'jobs' you can join, and they reassign your skills into primary, secondary, and other, skills. While you are XPing, your skills raise, the primary skills raise the fastest, the secondary medium, and the other very slow. The jobs also give you unique abilities.

More advanced jobs then, take certain stat requirements to unlock

For instance, lets say you make a warrior class. In your start town 'lets say San d'Oria' there is a job in that town that basically requires you to be a warrior and citizen of the town, the Squires d'Oraguille.

When you join that job, your sword skill, your shield skill, your blade defense skill, and your parry skill get set as primaries, spear skill, dodge, medicine as secondaries, and whatever else you have are other (white magic might be an other skill)

A ways down your journey, you have 20 sword, shield, blade defense and parry, 15 spear, dodge, medicine, etc.

Now at this point you can join a new job by doing a quest that makes you the job 'Knight of San d'Oria' or you can XP some more, get your spear skill to 20 (at which your primaries are around 23 or 24) and do a different quest to become a dragoon. If you join knight, your sword and shield skills stay primary, but you get your horsemanship skill moved from other to primary, your medicine skill moved to other etc, and get new abilities that the strength of is based on your skills.

After that, there's more jobs that take more varied skills etc. Maybe Paladin of Altanna would require you to be a knight of san d'oria, have 100 shield skill, white magic at least up to 50 (from being the medic job which makes white magic and medicine primary skills (its not the white mage job))

As you can see, certain jobs would switch skills from primary to other or other to primary etc. Would people at some point way down the road end up with all skills maxed? Yes, like in FFXI down the road people can end up with all jobs maxed, and it should take about the same amount of time.

It was a very fun system! Some people would choose to go a long way on a support class then switch classes so they would have some stronger support skills, and other people would choose to specialize one class in order to have the strongest main abilities.

(I truely am fond of text mountains aren't I?)


The distinct advantages of this system are a) tons of customization of what kind of character you want to work towards, b) there could be a ton of jobs, some with very small differences based on nationality that might move just a few skills around or have a different skill, say if you start in Bastok, you might have the option of joining the Bastok Iron Muskateers instead of the dragoons. c) New jobs could be added quite easily, some might be very hard to join or have limited membership.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 4:55pm by digitalcraft
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#6 Jun 03 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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So the grid like in FFX?
#7 Jun 03 2009 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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I absolutely loved Ultima Online. You could re-invent your character just by clicking an arrow and working on it. I quit playing when they introduced the scrolls that increased caps, because I wasn't hardcore enough to be able to get any. I felt that ruined the whole thing :(

I built a 'ranger'type by GMing Archery, healing with bandies, animal taming, sword, and threw in only a little magic ONLY to gate (I forget what the rest of my points were spread out in ...)

But with the system SE is using in FFXIV I'm not sure if it'd work, since wasn't it said there was a sort of job system in place in this game, too?
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#8 Jun 03 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd personally love to not have a level system, something sort of like in ff2 where you just become better at stuff by doing it. What SE does though has probably been planed for a while and won't change.

I honestly don't know what I'm going to do with this comes out.. I have enough money to get myself a decent HDTV and a decent surround sound system for my ps3, and if this job works out for me I'll be able to support myself with MMOs and even get a new computer.. but I just don't know. Will I be able to leave ffxi? (Actually, if everybody in my linkshell leaves I'll probably leave as well. Just like when my last HNM shell started moving over to WoW I just stopped playing.)
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#9 Jun 03 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I have been thinking the same way as you, Pikko, even before this interview.
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#10 Jun 03 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
I would like to see a system that is a little beyond *Gather together a healer, tank, some randoms dds, and then kill bats, crawlers, or beetles for the next 6 hours."



This.

I personally think there needs to be some element of grind involved, however for gods sake, they need to make it more fun and less tedious. Killing the same mob over and over and over for Hours and Hours and Hours gets very old and boring very fast. Not to mention meriting.

For those of us with 10+ Level 75 jobs, or even 5+ 75 jobs, do you even know how hard it is to fully merit them? You have to kill, the same mobs, over and over, in the same areas, daily, for hours a day, for what can honestly be YEARS of time. That is just insanity and I do not want to see it again. I've been meriting for as long as that system has been in game just about, weekly, daily, for long periods of time, and am only halfway done with my merits on all my jobs.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 4:58pm by EndlessJourney
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#11 Jun 03 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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There are actually quite a few MMOs that do this. However, those games usually don't do so well. That may be because of complete separate issues with those games, but I can't think of one that has been successful with this system while I can think of failures.

Basically though you aren't removing character level from the game; you're giving characters a whole bunch of levels. Which can often mean far more grinding.

I have to ask though whether you want to simply remove levels or player class as well--you're simply a collection of your high level skills, with no real class? Is there a limit to the number of levels you can distribute between these skills cumulatively or does each one have its individual cap? How would you train each skill--by using it? Hurray block leveling monks?

There are a lot of potential problems with the system. It's like standing on a slippery floor covered in razorblades. If everything goes perfectly then the situation could be just fine, but it could easily go horribly, terribly wrong. I'd rather they not take the risk.

I believe SE comment indicates that there will be a greater degree of character customization than in FFXI, so possibly the sphere grid/wow talent trees.
#12 Jun 03 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I'm thinking they probably already have a level system, but it would be so nice if they didn't.

And LOL @ porting. I'd forgotten about that. Kal Ort Por! And that fizzling sound when you failed your spell was so hilarious.
#13 Jun 03 2009 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I'd personally love to not have a level system, something sort of like in ff2 where you just become better at stuff by doing it.

That's what monk blocking is. It's a skill they get good at by leveling up, and it's incredibly painful to level up.
#14 Jun 03 2009 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Pikko wrote:
And LOL @ porting. I'd forgotten about that. Kal Ort Por! And that fizzling sound when you failed your spell was so hilarious.


And since I had the absolute minimum magic level required to port, I failed a LOT. My ex was not amused. Most of the time he set up the portal for me just to avoid the whole thing XD
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#15 Jun 03 2009 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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They'll probably do a new thing at these matters that we haven't thought sbout it, or seen in others games, really hope so.
#16 Jun 03 2009 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This.

I personally think there needs to be some element of grind involved, however for gods sake, they need to make it more fun and less tedious. Killing the same mob over and over and over for Hours and Hours and Hours gets very old and boring very fast. Not to mention meriting.

What do you think of having an on-the-go battle system like FFXII? I thought that one was great -- you swept through a zone quickly killing a bunch of smaller things along the way. Kind of like burn parties, but a little more dynamic. It would be nice to be able to run freely around a whole zone like in that game without having to be afraid of running into something 20 levels too high.

On Pikko's topic: that would definitely fit the bill for the more "natural" system of character growth that they were talking about. I'm skeptical that an MMO company would abandon levels though, simply because they're such a psychologically effective way of keeping people going. I admit I like them too... it's good to have one nice round number to know at a glance exactly where you are and how far you are to your next goal.
#17 Jun 03 2009 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Haha, nothing like fizzling when you're trying to Corp Por a PK too!
#18 Jun 03 2009 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
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Haha omg, forgot about that. Always fun when the one you're going after fails and all of a sudden you see oOOoOOOooOooo... (unless you leveled spirit talking w/e it was called and could read him cursing you out...)
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#19 Jun 03 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Borkachev wrote:

What do you think of having an on-the-go battle system like FFXII? I thought that one was great -- you swept through a zone quickly killing a bunch of smaller things along the way. Kind of like burn parties, but a little more dynamic. It would be nice to be able to run freely around a whole zone like in that game without having to be afraid of running into something 20 levels too high.


The problem with that is now you 5-6 parties roaming the zone, where do you go? You can't tell if a certain place will be a good spot to start because you will be moving around and you could find yourself in the middle of 4 other parties. So now you are just wondering trying to find 1 small mod that doesn't give you a huge return. Either that or now you have 500 mobs in a small area which would take away from any immersion you might have.
#20 Jun 03 2009 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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So long as its not like FF8 where you just collect a bunch of crap to become stronger and your level doesn't matter. Or a better example, like Runescape where you jump over a log 2309850982304982 times to skill up your Agility. o-o
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#21 Jun 03 2009 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
Well as far as Pikko's idea it seems nice but with the advent of the "modern" MMO i dont see it as likely they will eliminate leveling and permanent rare gear. People want to be better then others and levels and rare gear are physical representations of that.

If you look at a game like darkfall (Which I'm STILL waiting for) its looking to pull of the non level based combat because most of its combat skills are based around player skills and less about formulas. For instance to be good at archery you physically have to aim your weapon so if someone is a bad shot they could have perfect skills and still be a terrible archer. This game rewards players with actual skill at the game instead of levels eg. practice makes perfect.

UNless FFXIV adopts a system where there lays a physical reward for the player its unlikely to abandon the leveling system. Its simply the easiest way to contain growth and apease the groups seeking for "reward".

As far a sphere grid this seems interesting. I like the idea of "focus"ing your character. Perhaps everyone starts with a basic list of spells and abilities and chooses paths similar to skill trees from Diablo or dare i say it WoW. However make the trees broad in that say a 3 choice tiered system like this:
                                 Starter 
                                         | 
              _________________________________________________ 
               Melee                    Tank                    Mage 
                  |                       |                       | 
         Warrior    Monk        Paladin       Viking       White      Black 
 
                                         ETC


Overall I hope I'm wrong when I say I doubt FFXIV will stray far from the job system. Maybe a revamp with new systems within the class system would be good but I dont see not having predefined setups for classes.

However I hope they dont pidgeonhole jobs into one playstyle and offer options. A mantra in the Warrior forums is "Sh*t is situaional" and as much as people hated having to carry around a ton of gear it always gave you somethign new to strive for.

Heres to SE bringing us a soldid game Smiley: chug
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#22 Jun 03 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
I can definitely see that working pikko, but they'd need to limit it to avoid people from being superpowered in everything. Maybe like three "builds" excelling in either fighting, magic, or support, and two "slots" to skill up whatever you'd like. Like say white magic and archery to make a backline whm like Rosa.

I'm definitely big on user-chosen advancement, the key is to limit it enough to make meaningful differences between people.
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#23 Jun 03 2009 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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The Neispace of Doom wrote:
I can definitely see that working pikko, but they'd need to limit it to avoid people from being superpowered in everything. Maybe like three "builds" excelling in either fighting, magic, or support, and two "slots" to skill up whatever you'd like. Like say white magic and archery to make a backline whm like Rosa.

I'm definitely big on user-chosen advancement, the key is to limit it enough to make meaningful differences between people.


In UO it was limited to 700 points, 100 points per skill. You could be mediocre in a bunch, or 'grandmaster' in 7, or a mix of it. Same with the stats. You had only so many points to work with there as well. If this system was used, a cap similar to this would be introduced as well.
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#24 Jun 03 2009 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Well being a veteran FF player from I to XII and everything in between I've seen Square doing everything under the sun to keep the FF series fresh while holding onto tradition.

Some of the more unique ways was FFX sphere grid and FFXII chessboard thing. FFVI had you learn all your abilities and spells from summons with FFVII had materia.

I think you could have the standard Lvl Up System while still keeping the actually level up mechanics fresh. Levels help by giving the player a visible gauge on where they are. If you think in terms of FFXI with no level a player decides it's time to go too the dunes because he is 10xp from the mob he is killing. With a level, he dings 10 and instantly knows it's time to move on.

The best way I think I can word it is this, A level is just visual representation of the players progression.
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#25 Jun 03 2009 at 9:37 PM Rating: Default
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Yeah, Darkfall is like that. There is no leveling. You just level up certains stats and skills.
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#26 Jun 03 2009 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Pikko wrote:
So the grid like in FFX?


I hated this system :3
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#27 Jun 03 2009 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure I'm ready for a final fantasy with no experience of any kind. My favorite FFs were ones with multiple types of EXP (FFVII-X). No exp at all might just blow my mind.

I think the idea is interesting, but in practice, it would be, in essence, just hiding the character's level from the player. There would still be quantifiable stats, I mean the computer has to keep track of your progress somehow, you just wouldn't know those stats. I prefer to know them, personally. I realize you're not suggesting getting rid of stats (STR, INT) but a level is a stat, just like anything, so it would effectively just be an extension of that principle. It's an interesting concept, but I think it would simplify things a little too much. One of my favorite things to do in those old FFs was manage my stats, and with hidden stats, that would just make that so much more difficult.

It would be so odd, also, if you couldn't see the stats on gear. Superstitions abound. Forget directional crafting, that's child's play superstition. Welcome to "OMG Kite Shield gives you Blacksmithing +7!" or some ridiculous thing.
#28 Jun 03 2009 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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Talk of XII reminds of the Gambit system and how being about to 'build' specialized NPCs for light solo play could be helpful. Could also be another form of leveling as players would wind up making them to compensate for the shortcomings of themselves.

Anyway, I don't see levels going anywhere. As another poster put it, just taking it away from place is pretty much putting it in another. I'm all about distinction and customization, and with that reasonable levels of optimization, but I've never been much of a fan of artificial limits that made no sense if a person was willing to work for whatever. Even if someone winds up maxing all the jobs we'd get in XIV, I can't see them technically being all those jobs at once.
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#29 Jun 03 2009 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
FFII basically did this too and I think they didn't like it since it was never seen nor heard from again. It does open up a lot of different possibilities for player customization though.


Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 4:55pm by digitalcraft


Actually Romancing Saga used this system : http://www.fantasyanime.com/saga/rs3.htm
#30 Jun 03 2009 at 10:49 PM Rating: Decent
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The "traditional" leveling system is something I could live with if that's what ended up being the way FFXIV is implemented, though I have to admit that I'm more than a little curious to find out what they really have in mind after the blurb at the press conference today.

Lots of MMOs have been dabbling with different methods of allowing job/class diversity and "customization". I think that there's still only so much that can be done from the developer side of things. It becomes extremely important for the developer to ensure that no single encounter renders a particular skill set useless or excessively difficult to use effectively. Then it falls to the player community to accept the variety. I think that one of the main difficulties facing any MMO developer is that there will always be the dedicated min-maxer segment of the community that will do the theorycraft and testing and determine what the "best" character "configuration" option is for a particular task. At that point, a lot of the variety goes out the window when everyone rushes to duplicate the cookie cutter builds so as not to be turned away as "gimp".

If FFXIV embraces a more solo friendly attitude towards development and tuning, it leaves a huge segment of the game where players are truly free to build their characters as they see fit because they needn't worry about being rejected from groups because they don't conform. End-game content that traditionally focuses heavily on group play will still bring the cookie cutters to the forefront, but if a person isn't interested in that particular segment of the game, a clean slate upon which to base their character development is a really neat idea.
#31 Jun 03 2009 at 11:22 PM Rating: Good
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I guess no matter how you design things... in the end you will still have the situation where a leader will tell you... "I'm sorry.. i'd preffer a PURE DD build then your "Hybrid" build" and continue shouting for that said build.

They will argue.. exp/hour return.. and so on... so in the end no matter how customisable things get... you will still have the time when people will ask you to come COR/RNG and not COR/WHM, :P (just picking one scenario as an example) its a whole new game.. but its still the same players? ;)
#32 Jun 03 2009 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Zokudu, Eater of Souls wrote:
Well as far as Pikko's idea it seems nice but with the advent of the "modern" MMO i dont see it as likely they will eliminate leveling and permanent rare gear. People want to be better then others and levels and rare gear are physical representations of that.

If you look at a game like darkfall (Which I'm STILL waiting for) its looking to pull of the non level based combat because most of its combat skills are based around player skills and less about formulas. For instance to be good at archery you physically have to aim your weapon so if someone is a bad shot they could have perfect skills and still be a terrible archer. This game rewards players with actual skill at the game instead of levels eg. practice makes perfect.

UNless FFXIV adopts a system where there lays a physical reward for the player its unlikely to abandon the leveling system. Its simply the easiest way to contain growth and apease the groups seeking for "reward".

As far a sphere grid this seems interesting. I like the idea of "focus"ing your character. Perhaps everyone starts with a basic list of spells and abilities and chooses paths similar to skill trees from Diablo or dare i say it WoW. However make the trees broad in that say a 3 choice tiered system like this:
                                 Starter 
                                         | 
              _________________________________________________ 
               Melee                    Tank                    Mage 
                  |                       |                       | 
         Warrior    Monk        Paladin       Viking       White      Black 
 
                                         ETC


Overall I hope I'm wrong when I say I doubt FFXIV will stray far from the job system. Maybe a revamp with new systems within the class system would be good but I dont see not having predefined setups for classes.

However I hope they dont pidgeonhole jobs into one playstyle and offer options. A mantra in the Warrior forums is "Sh*t is situaional" and as much as people hated having to carry around a ton of gear it always gave you somethign new to strive for.

Heres to SE bringing us a soldid game Smiley: chug


Warrior **** well better be on the tanking list this time SE, or i'll hunt you down.
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#33 Jun 03 2009 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sure I'm not the only one who has played the Elder Scrolls series of games. That series uses a more "organic" level system where, rather than earning XP which grants levels, you instead simply increase your skills by using them, and every time you have gained a certain amount of total skill, you gain a level (which in turn allows you to distribute some stats).

Levels are not something that you try to gain in order to grow. You grow, and levels are simply markers along the path.

Applying something like this to the Job system might be interesting.
#34 Jun 03 2009 at 11:36 PM Rating: Default
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I am going to post it again in a different thread.


THIS IS FINAL FANTASY.

YES THERE WILL BE LEVELS. Just like there will be jobs, and there will be MP, and there will be HP, and there will be moogles, there will be CID, there will be chocobos.

I might be wrong this time, but I got 12 games played to back me up.

Maybe the job system will be more like tactics and let you pick and choose, maybe there will be only skill levels, and all spells or abilities or weapon restrictions are based on those.

BUT DAMMIT THERE WILL BE LEVELS. IT IS A FINAL FANTASY.

Seriously, what the topic of debate on an Alla forum is whether or not there will be levels in an upcoming final fantasy game?

Maybe the next Halo won't have any guns.
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#35 Jun 03 2009 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Zophial wrote:
you will still have the time when people will ask you to come COR/RNG and not COR/WHM, :P


You got them backwards, dude! CORs like to play as COR/RNG but they are asked to come /WHM all too often, makes me wish party leaders leveled COR and figured out why /WHM is so dumb.

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#36 Jun 04 2009 at 5:00 AM Rating: Good
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You know, I was just reading this comment:

Quote:
"We will have the same type of story-telling and expand on in-game systems. The player will be able to grow and develop in a natural way. It shouldn't put a lot of weight on the player itself, and through this, we'll develop the job system into something quite different."


That Square Enix made during the press conference, and have been trying to read between the lines, and something hit me...

"The player will grow and develop in a more natural way"

and

"It shouldn't put a lot of weight on the player themselves"

and finally

"We'll develop the job system into something quite different"

To me, this is almost like what I use to think about MMORPG's before I even started playing them... Now, this is a long shot, but instead of leveling by "Grinding" on a certain monster over and over and over, you level by doing missions, quests, etc? Like, the more experience your character gains in the game and it's activities, the higher in level you grow, until you reach the cap? Maybe with some grinding involved if you wish to do that as well?

Just thinking, it sure sounds like they want to add something like that...
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#37 Jun 04 2009 at 5:15 AM Rating: Decent
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EndlessJourney, I read into that a little well, and I agree that it may mean something along those lines.

My interpretation is that leveling or developing your character/job or whatever, will be more a part of the things that you will be doing naturally in the game. So rather than grinding for six hours to level, killing the same mobs over and over again and waiting for them to regen, maybe as a part of mission x-x, you will transport thing y and protect it from different mobs on the way, similar to many other FFs, meanwhile gaining valuable experience.
#38 Jun 04 2009 at 6:06 AM Rating: Good
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I honestly can see our character starting as a "Newbie class" up to level 10 or something, and then quests to unlock the "Advanced jobs".
As a newbie we could learn a bit of everything, like basic Cure spell, Stone or something, some generic attack skills.
I think it'll be hard getting rid of standard levels, but they might easily combine more systems together.
There's the FF9 system too, the "learn from items" one.
#39 Jun 04 2009 at 6:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I think it will be a major gamble to do away the level system. The system in UO, even is different than most games now, is still often grinding. In FFXI, the advanced job quests and plots sometimes but not always tied to main plot in the game -- like PUP, SMN, DRK, COR are VERY closed tied to main plot of the game, but BRD quest is just like... out there.

If there is one thing, the Genkai system does need reworking. How the heck smashing lichs has to do with the main plot of the game... Oh yeah may be it was the secret tricks that keep Maat still kicking butts (sarcasm)
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#40 Jun 04 2009 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
I am going to post it again in a different thread.


THIS IS FINAL FANTASY.

YES THERE WILL BE LEVELS. Just like there will be jobs, and there will be MP, and there will be HP, and there will be moogles, there will be CID, there will be chocobos.

I might be wrong this time, but I got 12 games played to back me up.

Maybe the job system will be more like tactics and let you pick and choose, maybe there will be only skill levels, and all spells or abilities or weapon restrictions are based on those.

BUT DAMMIT THERE WILL BE LEVELS. IT IS A FINAL FANTASY.

Seriously, what the topic of debate on an Alla forum is whether or not there will be levels in an upcoming final fantasy game?

Maybe the next Halo won't have any guns.


FFX did not have levels.
#41 Jun 04 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Talk of XII reminds of the Gambit system and how being about to 'build' specialized NPCs for light solo play could be helpful. Could also be another form of leveling as players would wind up making them to compensate for the shortcomings of themselves.

Ok, that would be just about the most awesome thing imaginable.

Mind you, I love the gambit system and think that pretty much every game should have some kind of programmable AI.
#42 Jun 04 2009 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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Looks like you might get your wish Pikko.

Quote:
- There wont be experience point level system on FF14


http://www.zam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=1244129378155968568;num=17;page=1
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#43 Jun 04 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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I hope they come up with something new. I'm tired of this big focus on leveling which has spread to all mmos.
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#44 Jun 04 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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#45 Jun 04 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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I can't say for sure what the new job/level system will likely be, or what I even want it to be, I'm just incredibly excited and looking forward to something new. I really hope SE knocks this one out of the park. I want it to be amazing and fun and innovative and just absolutely blow me away. Smiley: lol I'm probably asking too much. Eh, I'm just looking forward to it either way. Smiley: laugh
#46 Jun 04 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
Shazaamemt wrote:
I am going to post it again in a different thread.


THIS IS FINAL FANTASY.

YES THERE WILL BE LEVELS. Just like there will be jobs, and there will be MP, and there will be HP, and there will be moogles, there will be CID, there will be chocobos.

I might be wrong this time, but I got 12 games played to back me up.

Maybe the job system will be more like tactics and let you pick and choose, maybe there will be only skill levels, and all spells or abilities or weapon restrictions are based on those.

BUT DAMMIT THERE WILL BE LEVELS. IT IS A FINAL FANTASY.

Seriously, what the topic of debate on an Alla forum is whether or not there will be levels in an upcoming final fantasy game?

Maybe the next Halo won't have any guns.


FFX did not have levels.


And FF8 did not have MP (and level didn't matter as much).
#47 Jun 04 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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With the developers making it a point about the "growth of the character", skills in this sense could be a replacement for leveling like Pikko stated for UO.

I've also heard that story progression might have to do with character progression to an extent.

For Example:
In FFXI you can't feasibly level past 50 without undergoing a certain quest or retain certain abilities (Weapon Skill quests). Perhaps they might be hinting that things like this may occur more often or your story progression may delineate a "high level" character from "low level" characters (level here is meant only as a progressive term not what we know as leveling).

This could be how the Job system becomes married to this new sort of system also. Maybe certain abilities can only be learned from certain weapons if you are playing a certain job or vice versa.

Again this is all speculation, I don't think we have nearly enough information to really get a grasp on what the character progression mechanic will truly be in the end.
#48 Jun 04 2009 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I liked Diablo 2 system. You still had a grind, but you could be lvl 99 with starting HP. Would bring a different feel to FF if each time you leveled you had to pick what stats to increase and what spells you wanted to learn. As of right now, two ppl with the same job at 75 with the same gear are twins (factor out race). If you had the option to choose what skills to raise and cap we wouldn't all just be carbon copies of each other.

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 6:38pm by Pachrique
#49 Jun 04 2009 at 2:44 PM Rating: Default
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Hopefully quest-driven doesn't make for some lame, linear storyline. I have no idea what they mean by changing weapons will be analogous to changing jobs or whatever they said. So.. I have an axe and I level increase STR, I switch to Stave and level increase MND?
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#50 Jun 04 2009 at 2:53 PM Rating: Default
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Mithiala wrote:
I do like that idea, being good at a job because you are actually good at it; not because your level says you are.


so true...
#51 Jun 04 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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dyvidd wrote:
Looks like you might get your wish Pikko.

Quote:
- There wont be experience point level system on FF14


http://www.zam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=1244129378155968568;num=17;page=1


Looks like Pikko's psychic.
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