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The job system seems obvious from what they said.Follow

#1 Jun 04 2009 at 7:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Just got through reading the IGN interview and the live blog here on the forum.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the jobs will work similar to they way they do in Tactics.

Quote:
How does the leveling system work?
Square Enix is cagey about how characters advance, but it has confirmed with IGN that growth is not based on experience and that it will work on a different system entirely.

What about jobs?

Jobs will return in Final Fantasy XIV, but they will be much different than the job system present in FFXI.

How important are the weapons?

Weapons are very important and have a heavy influence on your character and how they succeed in the game world. Square Enix says to look closely at the official FFXIV logo for hints and hidden meanings about how the game will work.

What hidden meanings?

Square Enix told us that when it approached Amano to do the logo art for FFXIV, that weapons were very important and to think of the concept of a "wheel." Specifically, a wheel of adventurers that has their weapon in front of them and an exposed backside -- which leaves each adventurer to rely heavily on their comrades and their friends. Let the speculation begin.

Anything else about the weapons?

The team let slip to us that choosing weapons for specific tasks one day versus another could affect how your character develops.


For those who didn't play the tactics games, you pick your job and can change at random. However, learning skills and developing them meant using a weapon that taught that skill long enough to learn it.

Am I crazy for thinking that this inverview sounds like that's the direction?
#2 Jun 04 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I think that that's a possibility. I don't quite remember how the ability and leveling system in Tactics worked, but it sounds similar to FF9's system which I do remember. That's what I initially thought when they were speaking about how weapons will have a heavy influence on your character, but then when they directed me to look at the logo, I got a feeling like the weapon type you choose will affect your stats rather than your abilities. Like, if you were to use a staff, your INT (or whatever the magic based stat is) would slowly grow the more you use it. It could go up to some predefined limit. If you were to switch to say, a dagger, your INT would slowly go down and your DEX would slowly rise. Hopefully, if it works this way, there's an option for locking in your stats, as it could be difficult to maintain any stats you desire if they keep changing with every battle you win.
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#3 Jun 04 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Decent
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ChWiXz wrote:
I think that that's a possibility. I don't quite remember how the ability and leveling system in Tactics worked, but it sounds similar to FF9's system which I do remember. That's what I initially thought when they were speaking about how weapons will have a heavy influence on your character, but then when they directed me to look at the logo, I got a feeling like the weapon type you choose will affect your stats rather than your abilities. Like, if you were to use a staff, your INT (or whatever the magic based stat is) would slowly grow the more you use it. It could go up to some predefined limit. If you were to switch to say, a dagger, your INT would slowly go down and your DEX would slowly rise. Hopefully, if it works this way, there's an option for locking in your stats, as it could be difficult to maintain any stats you desire if they keep changing with every battle you win.


Hmm so you wont have instant job changing with all stats intanct like FFXI ?
What a bummer ;(
#4 Jun 04 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Well don't forget weapons were a very big deal when FFXI first came out because of the heavy use of Skill Chains and Magic burst.
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#5 Jun 04 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
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If you've played The Last Remnant, this will make perfect sense to you as one of SE's newest incarnations of a use-based skill system.

In TLR, you could have your hero equip any weapon (except those rare exceptions where a weapon had a race restriction on it). Depending on the type of weapon, you would have different wield style options (one-handed, two-handed ("power grip"), dual wield, etc.) You then go out and fight and as you fight, you learn new skills based on the weapon type and wield style. Gaining skill with magic use was similar; you have access to different schools of magic and gain skill in those schools by using the spells available to you from that school. Increases to your attributes were based in large part on your choices in combat. Favoring the use of weapons over magic would see more increases to strangth and favoring magic over weapons would lead to more increases in inteligence. Finally, using attacks that required AP (aka MP for simplicity) could yield increases in your AP pool, and taking lots of damage increased the likelihood that your HP pool would grow.

As a result, instead of choosing your class and then deciding your actions as that class while playing the game, you play the game and the game assigns you a title similar to a class name based on your actions. That title can change depending on how you continue to play the character.
#6 Jun 04 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I really hope they keep the ability to change jobs. I want one character...not 5-6 characters... :(
#7Maldavian, Posted: Jun 04 2009 at 8:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you read the above comment it is not be possible to change job like it was in FFXI. Its a completely different system it seems.
#8 Jun 04 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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This also reminds me of the way ability growth occurs in FF9/FF Tactics Advance.

You learn abilities from gear, and until you get the AP to learn how to use said abilities without having the gear on, you gotta keep using said gear.

That would be kinda interesting to see here imo.
#9 Jun 04 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
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This system has the potential to be really, really annoying.

For example say you wanted to play a thief character who was good at dodging. In a group you're not a good tank, so you wouldn't be getting hit very much, thus you don't level your dodge skill. So in order to level dodge you have to grind it out on your on time.

Maybe you want to play a gun using character, but there aren't many good low level guns. Bows happen to be better at that level. You have to level up bow to be useful in groups early on, but then you have to grind up gun skill later on so you can play the style you want.

It can also be very annoying if you're forced to distribute points from a shared pool. You can't be good at everything, so you pick some skills to level up while neglecting others. This strongly discourages experimentation. If you level up spear to 5 and axe to 5, then decide to go axe you will never be as good with axes as someone who has played with axes alone. You're stuck with a useless spear skill.

I hope SE has a good plan.
#10 Jun 04 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think they didn't want the job change system like XI because, face it, it's a terrible time sink, far more than they anticipated, and they never expected people to level up more than 1-2 jobs to 75. Most people I know run around with 4+ 75s in endgame, and they'd like a few more.

I'm sure, if you want to be Ultimate Pimp Jack of All Trades, with a system such as this you could work to train to mediocre levels in every single area and end up a Red Mage. But, unlike FFXI, you'll never be able to be the master of more than 2-3 things on one character.
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#11 Jun 04 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
mpmaley wrote:
I really hope they keep the ability to change jobs. I want one character...not 5-6 characters... :(


If you read the above comment it is not be possible to change job like it was in FFXI. Its a completely different system it seems.

Well it could be like FFTA where you learn spells and abilities based on your weapons but still able to freely change jobs.
#12 Jun 04 2009 at 8:51 AM Rating: Default
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Parade wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
mpmaley wrote:
I really hope they keep the ability to change jobs. I want one character...not 5-6 characters... :(


If you read the above comment it is not be possible to change job like it was in FFXI. Its a completely different system it seems.

Well it could be like FFTA where you learn spells and abilities based on your weapons but still able to freely change jobs.


But wont you forget those when you switch job and need to learn them again if you switch weapon ? Or when you have reached max in 1 job, and switch to another and max that and then you swicth back to the first job will it then already be maxed ?

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 12:52pm by Maldavian
#13 Jun 04 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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After examining the logo and thinking about this I've reached my speculations which lead me to one of two options:

1. Job's instead of having inate abilites and progess to learn spells at certain levels will need to become more and more proficient in a weapon class.

Option 1
Skills, Abilities, and spells change in effect due to the weapon class use thereby changing the way the job preforms

I.E.

Day 1
Whm uses a wand with a wand skill level of 50.

Cure spells are short ranged, potent, and can only target single characters.

Day 2
Whm uses a staff with a staff skill level of 50.

Cure spells are long ranged, less potent, and can target multiple characters.

Of course this rely's on your skill levels with each weapon. This adds mutilple layers to each job if this is the case and you can tailor your playstyle by developing certain weapon masterys. This is just a basic run down of my option 1 assumption.

Option 2
Skills, Abilities, and spells are learned from weapons ala FFTA.

Day 1
Whm equips staff and must used said particular staff to learn cure once learned it may then be removed.

Day 2
Whm has learned cure and may remove staff for a wand to learn protect ability.

All I can say is ick. This very limiting. I just don't like it. It also creates a depedency and very specific weapons that I'm sure will hurt any MMO. Too many ppl clamouring of 1 specific weapon to learn a trick for their job will be bad.

I have to say option 2 seems less likely from looking at the logo and thinking about this "wheel" aspect. Looking at the logo we can see the entire outside has long reaching weapons poking out of it. Like some sentient spikey ball. In the middle we can see a taru mage and what appears to be a MNK Galka. Option one premotes the idea that a weapon is used a particular way like all weapons are.

Just a guess.
#14 Jun 04 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think they didn't want the job change system like XI because, face it, it's a terrible time sink, far more than they anticipated, and they never expected people to level up more than 1-2 jobs to 75. Most people I know run around with 4+ 75s in endgame, and they'd like a few more.

I'm sure, if you want to be Ultimate Pimp Jack of All Trades, with a system such as this you could work to train to mediocre levels in every single area and end up a Red Mage. But, unlike FFXI, you'll never be able to be the master of more than 2-3 things on one character.


That time sink wasn't required. Nobody forced you to level 4+ jobs. People did it because they most likely enjoyed those jobs. I had Ranger, Bard and Black Mage. I enjoyed each job. I don't like the system of 1 job per character. I like the game mechanics of XI much more. One character, any job. This way you do quests once. If you need 4-6 characters, you're repeating the same quests over and over again.
#15 Jun 04 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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waveren wrote:
After examining the logo and thinking about this I've reached my speculations which lead me to one of two options:

1. Job's instead of having inate abilites and progess to learn spells at certain levels will need to become more and more proficient in a weapon class.

Option 1
Skills, Abilities, and spells change in effect due to the weapon class use thereby changing the way the job preforms

I.E.

Day 1
Whm uses a wand with a wand skill level of 50.

Cure spells are short ranged, potent, and can only target single characters.

Day 2
Whm uses a staff with a staff skill level of 50.

Cure spells are long ranged, less potent, and can target multiple characters.

Of course this rely's on your skill levels with each weapon. This adds mutilple layers to each job if this is the case and you can tailor your playstyle by developing certain weapon masterys. This is just a basic run down of my option 1 assumption.

Option 2
Skills, Abilities, and spells are learned from weapons ala FFTA.

Day 1
Whm equips staff and must used said particular staff to learn cure once learned it may then be removed.

Day 2
Whm has learned cure and may remove staff for a wand to learn protect ability.

All I can say is ick. This very limiting. I just don't like it. It also creates a depedency and very specific weapons that I'm sure will hurt any MMO. Too many ppl clamouring of 1 specific weapon to learn a trick for their job will be bad.

I have to say option 2 seems less likely from looking at the logo and thinking about this "wheel" aspect. Looking at the logo we can see the entire outside has long reaching weapons poking out of it. Like some sentient spikey ball. In the middle we can see a taru mage and what appears to be a MNK Galka. Option one premotes the idea that a weapon is used a particular way like all weapons are.

Just a guess.

Problem with Option 1 is that a certain weapon type will do certain things when you have it equip, so now you have people carrying multiple weapons around daily because different weapons give them different abilities.
#16 Jun 04 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Even following TLR book this doesn't make job switching impossible. Your growth could be confined to the job you are using. Switching jobs is a long running free in job dependant FF games. I don't see a reason to change that.
#17 Jun 04 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Parade, you've never played FFIX, have you? If you have, you'll know it's no problem carrying around multiple weapons, especially if its like FFIX/Tatics/LR, you can learn the abilities then get rid of the weapon afterwards if you don't need it for synthesis (FFIX).

Maybe it could be like Secret of Mana/Seiken Densetsu 3. lol ah the memories.
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#18 Jun 04 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Problem with Option 1 is that a certain weapon type will do certain things when you have it equip, so now you have people carrying multiple weapons around daily because different weapons give them different abilities.


Actually both options imply that. You be carrying that wand so when you learn that new skill in option 2. you can switch over immdeately.

But typically a job is proficient with 2 maybe 3 weapons so if a whm is proficient with staff and wand whats the issue with carrying one of each?

And the weapon your carrying may depend on the task at hand. In a party? Multiple mobs fighting all your melee? Use the staff for greater coverage. Trio/duo/solo'n? Use the wand for better potentcy.

Remember this is just an assumption.
#19 Jun 04 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
If you've played The Last Remnant, this will make perfect sense to you as one of SE's newest incarnations of a use-based skill system.

In TLR, you could have your hero equip any weapon (except those rare exceptions where a weapon had a race restriction on it). Depending on the type of weapon, you would have different wield style options (one-handed, two-handed ("power grip"), dual wield, etc.) You then go out and fight and as you fight, you learn new skills based on the weapon type and wield style. Gaining skill with magic use was similar; you have access to different schools of magic and gain skill in those schools by using the spells available to you from that school. Increases to your attributes were based in large part on your choices in combat. Favoring the use of weapons over magic would see more increases to strangth and favoring magic over weapons would lead to more increases in inteligence. Finally, using attacks that required AP (aka MP for simplicity) could yield increases in your AP pool, and taking lots of damage increased the likelihood that your HP pool would grow.

As a result, instead of choosing your class and then deciding your actions as that class while playing the game, you play the game and the game assigns you a title similar to a class name based on your actions. That title can change depending on how you continue to play the character.


We see something of similar essence with BLU's Job Traits, correct?
#20 Jun 04 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho the Pest wrote:

I'm sure, if you want to be Ultimate Pimp Jack of All Trades, with a system such as this you could work to train to mediocre levels in every single area and end up a Red Mage. But, unlike FFXI, you'll never be able to be the master of more than 2-3 things on one character.


I don't really think that would be the case. How much you're able to "master" would be an indication of how much time you had invested into your character. We're not talking about an infinite linear advancement, we're talking about the option to do whatever you want and have a character that reflects the way you've chosen to play it. If you start off developing your character as a black mage, for example, and then decide that a paladin is more to your liking, you'll end up with a paladin that has a lot of black mage abilities along with it. The idea then is that you'll have to choose gear suitable to the role you want to play in a party, so a paladin in gear that augments black magic isn't going to be as effective a tank as one that wears tank gear, and a black mage that wears tank gear isn't going to do as much damage as one that wears gear that augments spell damage.

Of course, it's all just speculation and supposition at this point, but it's fun to discuss ;D
#21 Jun 04 2009 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Parade, you've never played FFIX, have you? If you have, you'll know it's no problem carrying around multiple weapons, especially if its like FFIX/Tatics/LR, you can learn the abilities then get rid of the weapon afterwards if you don't need it for synthesis (FFIX).

Maybe it could be like Secret of Mana/Seiken Densetsu 3. lol ah the memories.

Actually I have played all Final Fantasy games(4 years of FFXI) and I would rather not carry around 8+ weapons around at all times again. Think about the way he said about different weapons give you different abilities. Mages would be overrun with weapons unless the weapons had multiple abilities on them.

However I think I might of misread it, as in the spells and abilities are only based on what is currently equipped. It is my mistake if I misunderstood him.

#22 Jun 04 2009 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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waveren wrote:
Quote:
Problem with Option 1 is that a certain weapon type will do certain things when you have it equip, so now you have people carrying multiple weapons around daily because different weapons give them different abilities.


Actually both options imply that. You be carrying that wand so when you learn that new skill in option 2. you can switch over immdeately.

But typically a job is proficient with 2 maybe 3 weapons so if a whm is proficient with staff and wand whats the issue with carrying one of each?

And the weapon your carrying may depend on the task at hand. In a party? Multiple mobs fighting all your melee? Use the staff for greater coverage. Trio/duo/solo'n? Use the wand for better potentcy.

Remember this is just an assumption.


Okay then it is my mistake, I misunderstood you. Sorry about that.
#23 Jun 04 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
However I think I might of misread it, as in the spells and abilities are only based on what is currently equipped. It is my mistake if I misunderstood him.


Sorry I'm typing between searching frantically for more information. Heh.

For clarification on option 1:

Spells, abilities, etc... are changed by the weapon class used. So cure might be effected by ALL wands in some manner and ALL staffs in some manner.

Hope that cleared that up.


#24 Jun 04 2009 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Just started the video interview:

"Character growth is a key word for FF14, and we will focus more on allowing the character to grow outside of only battles. For instance, the character may grow through the story."

"One thing we liked a lot about FF11 is the job system. This allowed players to try a lot of different things. We will be bringing this back and expanding on it."

"A problem with FF11 was its focus on party play. Sometimes players do not have time to play with a party. This game will have more solo content so players will not have to wait to play."

"[On PlayOnline] We want FF11 and FF14 communities to be connected, and we decided that PlayOnline was not the way to do that. This is something we're working on."

"Job system is very different. It depends on how the character decides to develop on that particular day, and they will choose a specific weapon to do that."

"One of the goals of FF14 is to be tailored for everyone, regardless of how much time they have to play or how they choose to play."


Found this on GAF. Don't know what video interview but I really like the bold o_o
#25 Jun 04 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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This seems to be obviously like a modified version (or maybe not even that modified) version of FF Tactics.

You pick a job, which determines your weapon/armor options.
Weapons (maybe armor too, but it sounds like just weapons) have some ability or multiple abilities that can be used while it is equipped. Perhaps a sword has "provoke" on it or a staff has Fire 2.

As you defeat mobs with a weapon equipped, you gain experience on it. When your experience reaches a certain point, you learn the ability from that weapon, and you can then swap it out. From that point on, as long as you are that job, you can use that ability without needing that weapon. I am going to guess (based on past FF games and comments so far) that is how it works.

What isn't clear or able to be properly guessed at is: What about jobs other than your current job? Will you be able to use traits and abilities (including maybe armor and weapon usage?) from jobs other than your current job? If so, how will this be handed?

Here is my speculation: Abilities will be handled like Blue Magic. You can use all of your job's abilities when it is your primary job, as well as allocate a budget of abilities from other jobs.

"equipped" abilities would give stats/attributes, the same way that equipped Blue magic does. These attributes would be job specific, so mage abilities would grand INT, MND, MP or HP. Physical job abilities would give DEX, STR, AGI, HP, and so on.

You could also see the same thing in terms of "traits." If you have spell X, Y and Z, you have Fast Cast. Thus, when you learn enough from your main job, you'll automatically gain the appropriate job traits, but if you want job traits that aren't provided by your basic job, you'll need to be very careful about how you allocate you learned "sub job" abilities.

I think a system like this would satisfy the desires to have the flexibility and customization of the current sub job system. The challenge for the devs would be to figure out the proper budget for abilities that are on par with Convert or Utsusemi.
#26 Jun 04 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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KPBeta wrote:
We see something of similar essence with BLU's Job Traits, correct?


It's been a while since I've looked over BLU job traits for FFXI but from what a vaguely recall it's somewhat similar. The main difference is that you're still a blue mage with restrictions based on your class. I'll continue with the Last Remnant reference not because I'm convinced that's what SE is going to use, but simply for the sake of an example.

You start off in Eorzea with your shiny new toon, Bob. Bob has attributes that reflect his race, a basic starter shirt and pants, and little bit of gil. Bob finds a vendor who sells weapons and is overjoyed to find that he has more than enough gil to buy any weapon he wants from the vendor, but he can only afford one of them. No problem...Bob decides to buy a sword knowing that he can earn more gil later and come back for something else if he so chooses. Bob stops by another vendor who happens to sell Orb Thingies of Mystic Glee. There is a different orb for each general category of magic (offensive damage, buffing, debuffing, healing, etc.). Bob decides to buy an Orb Thingy of Healing Bliss and uses it. Bob learns Little Healing Spell of Mirth, but more importantly, Bob now has access to the entire school of healing magic.

Bob then heads out into the world and finds a monster. Bob smacks the monster with his sword. Bob is kind of a wimpy guy at this point, so he has to hit the monster 5 times with his sword in order to kill it. Of course, the monster isn't going to take this lying down and fights back. Bob is wounded. Bob decides to heal himself with his nifty new healing magic. To summarize the entire fight "cycle":

Bob used his sword 5 times.
Bob cast his healing spell once.

Each time Bob hits something with his sword, his strength goes up by a tiny amount. Let's say Bob's strength as a brand new toon was 5. And let's say that each time he hits something with his sword, his strength increases by 0.05. After smacking things a total of 20 times with his sword, he gets a notification that his strength has increased by 1. Let's also say that every time Bob casts a spell, the attribute associated with that spell (ie. wisdom for healing) increases by 0.05. Let's say that every time Bob takes damage (ie. "uses" health), the game tracks that as well (with an obscure formula that will keep theorycrafters busy for years o.O) and after a period of time, Bob will get an increase to his HP, with the same concept applied to MP. Finally, let's suppose the game keeps track of how many times Bob has used a particular weapon...in this case, a sword. Once he has used that weapon a certain number of times (with some moderate randomness added for flavor), Bob will learn a new sword skill (ie. WS type of thing). Now, if Bob continues to just smack things with normal sword attacks, he will continue to learn new sword skills as he progresses but he will learn those skills faster if he makes use of the sword skills he has learned along the way.

So if Bob continues the playstyle of smacking things with his sword and healing himself as needed, Bob will develop good melee stats and sword skill and moderate healing skills. Bob begins to resemble a Paladin. Compare that to Jeff who started off playing the game with buddies from work and spends all of his time in a group with his friends. Jeff likes the offensive magic, so that's what he does. He stays out of harm's way and casts a lot of spells. Because he's not "using" his health (aka not taking damage), his HP pool stays low, but he's casting spells all the time so his attributes related to spellcasting (ie. intelligence, MP) have increased a fair amount. Jeff begins to resemble what we know as a Black Mage.

The main difference between that sort of thing and the "traditional" job system is that you're never "locked in" as a particular class. If Bob decides he wants to mess around with offensive magic for a change of pace, he can do so. He doesn't have to change jobs or gear and he isn't slapped with a bunch of coded restrictions because how he's using Fire instead of sword attacks to kill wimpy monsters. Say after one month of playing, Bob has been dabbling in a bit of everything. He still has the potential to excel in any skill set in the game, but his character isn't going to be nearly so developed in any one area at that point in time as someone who picked one specific area and focused on it for that month.

In that sort of system, you'd still have gear/weapons that are suited to a particular role. You're still going to have gear that is better suited for a healer than a tank based on the attributes on the gear. Rather than saying only X, Y, Z class can equip this gear, it becomes a function of certain attributes. If you want to equip armor suited to tanking...well...it's pretty heavy being made out of metal plates and all, so you need to have your strength at or above a certain point. Sure, Mr. Tank can wear the armor with Int and Wis on it, but it's going to result in a dead tank pretty fast because a tank needs defense, not brains.

Continuing with the trend, and in line with what SE has suggested (continuation of the advanced jobs concept), things like summoning magic, blue magic, songs, whatever...those, too, would require a Orb Thingy of Mystic Glee associated with that particular school of skill/magic, only instead of getting it from a vendor it would be a reward from a quest that isn't available until later in the game. Once you've received the orb from the quest, you use it like any other orb to unlock that school of skills/magic, and then you develop that school by using the abilities in it.

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 10:55am by AureliusSir
#27 Jun 04 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I think they are a little delusional when they say things like:

SE wrote:
"One thing we liked a lot about FF11 is the job system. This allowed players to try a lot of different things. We will be bringing this back and expanding on it."


It allowed people to *try* different things, realize they weren't the elitist definition of efficient, and promptly put away, never to be seen again except in that rare solo instance when you are bored or doing campaign.

I would like to see them get away from the "cookie cutter-ness" of the job and gear system in FFXI. Sure it's nice to recycle equipment because it saves money, but you can only level so many melee jobs before you are ******* sick of subbing ninja and looking at the Haubergeon.

I'm also a little concerned about using *weaponry* to advance your character. Staves and Hammers are nice for mages to boost stats and focus power, but I would think that learning our craft should be pointed a little more towards spellbooks and spell components rather than tied to weapons (and please for the love of soup SE, do NOT tie it to weaponskills performed). But then again, I suppose it depends on what lore you are used to.

#28 Jun 04 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
KPBeta wrote:
We see something of similar essence with BLU's Job Traits, correct?


*clippy*

That sounds very interesting but for all our sakes, I actually hope it doesn't come to pass as you have described it.

I'd prefer a system where progress is made and jobs are defined by abilities available, not abilities used. I know that sounds awkward, but here's the thing:

I don't think jobs should be defined but what I AM doing so much as what I have made available to use when the time comes. Essentially if what you're promoting is the system in place it sounds like we'll have four jobs:
Stronger PLDs
RDMs
BRDs
and an amalgamation of all the pet classes. (Because honestly, how can you choose between a Wyvern and Carbuncle? You'll just start picking Wyverns on Monday and Carbuncles on Tuesdays...)

Or at least, that's what I foresee.
#29 Jun 04 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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This seems to be obviously like a modified version (or maybe not even that modified) version of FF Tactics.

You pick a job, which determines your weapon/armor options.
Weapons (maybe armor too, but it sounds like just weapons) have some ability or multiple abilities that can be used while it is equipped. Perhaps a sword has "provoke" on it or a staff has Fire 2.

As you defeat mobs with a weapon equipped, you gain experience on it. When your experience reaches a certain point, you learn the ability from that weapon, and you can then swap it out. From that point on, as long as you are that job, you can use that ability without needing that weapon. I am going to guess (based on past FF games and comments so far) that is how it works.

What isn't clear or able to be properly guessed at is: What about jobs other than your current job? Will you be able to use traits and abilities (including maybe armor and weapon usage?) from jobs other than your current job? If so, how will this be handed?

Here is my speculation: Abilities will be handled like Blue Magic. You can use all of your job's abilities when it is your primary job, as well as allocate a budget of abilities from other jobs.

"equipped" abilities would give stats/attributes, the same way that equipped Blue magic does. These attributes would be job specific, so mage abilities would grand INT, MND, MP or HP. Physical job abilities would give DEX, STR, AGI, HP, and so on.

You could also see the same thing in terms of "traits." If you have spell X, Y and Z, you have Fast Cast. Thus, when you learn enough from your main job, you'll automatically gain the appropriate job traits, but if you want job traits that aren't provided by your basic job, you'll need to be very careful about how you allocate you learned "sub job" abilities.

I think a system like this would satisfy the desires to have the flexibility and customization of the current sub job system. The challenge for the devs would be to figure out the proper budget for abilities that are on par with Convert or Utsusemi.


It's...beautiful...

What you described I think is exactly what I think would make this amazing :P
#30 Jun 04 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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KPBeta wrote:

I don't think jobs should be defined but what I AM doing so much as what I have made available to use when the time comes. Essentially if what you're promoting is the system in place it sounds like we'll have four jobs:
Stronger PLDs
RDMs
BRDs
and an amalgamation of all the pet classes. (Because honestly, how can you choose between a Wyvern and Carbuncle? You'll just start picking Wyverns on Monday and Carbuncles on Tuesdays...)

Or at least, that's what I foresee.


Not necessarily, because we're talking about characters that will be developed over very long periods of time as the game progresses. If, for example, a player were to stick primarily to solo play, they would probably end up a hybrid of sorts because they're relying on that one character to do everything; take damage, do damage (potentially of a variety of types to exploit monster weaknesses), buff, and heal. Compare that to a player who spends a lot of time in groups performing a specific role (ie. tank, healer, dps of various kinds). Someone like Bob who started with a sword and healed himself because it was efficient for "leveling" solo before he started grouping would find that someone else was doing the healing so he could focus on melee dps and could potentially end up as more of a warrior-type class as opposed to a paladin.

Familiar advanced jobs like Blue Mage, Summoner, Beastmaster...each would have their own "school" of abilities. When they unlock that school, they get the very basic abilities associated with that job (something that lets the blue mage learn monster abilities, the option to get summons, or Charm Beast, for example). If SE wants Dragoons to have wyverns in FFXIV, they'd get their Wyvern when they unlock the school. That sort of thing.
#31 Jun 04 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
While I find the idea of you training up what you play like interesting, I hope it's not a system like FFT where you learn new skills by what weapon or armor you use. I want to be using the best type of weapon available to me, I don't want to be using some janky sword because it has a nice ability to learn. :P


Honestly, I'd love it if some MMO moved away from having armor and weapons have all sorts of crazy stats. Armor should be armor and protect you, not make you a stronger attacker. Maybe some enchanted rings or bangles, I could see, but for the most part, I think it would be really neat if heavy armor was purely defensive, so if you wanted to be an attacker type character you'd opt for lighter armor that didn't hinder you as much.
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#32 Jun 04 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:

Not necessarily, because we're talking about characters that will be developed over very long periods of time as the game progresses. If, for example, a player were to stick primarily to solo play, they would probably end up a hybrid of sorts because they're relying on that one character to do everything; take damage, do damage (potentially of a variety of types to exploit monster weaknesses), buff, and heal.


How will this play out if that person want to party ? No one will invite him cause of his "solo" build or ?
#33 Jun 04 2009 at 10:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Imagine if the weapons that give out the best skills or are the only ones that can take your character's skills to cap are equivalent of FFXI's Mythic or Relic weapons in both their acquirement and their difficulty at attaining?

It would be SE's method of guaranteeing there will only be a handful of people with max skills ever.

I am not liking this, not having a chance at Relics/Mythics and their weapon skills in FFXI was bad enough. But, not even being able to cap skills and (stay at 74, sort of) unless you can get your hands on that uber rare ultimate weapon sounds like a crippling blow to everyone but the most hardcore of the hardcore, or the gilbuyers...
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#34 Jun 04 2009 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I am not liking this, not having a chance at Relics/Mythics and their weapon skills in FFXI was bad enough. But, not even being able to cap skills and (stay at 74, sort of) unless you can get your hands on that uber rare ultimate weapon sounds like a crippling blow to everyone but the most hardcore of the hardcore, or the gilbuyers...


As long as it's not as hard to acquire as a relic weapon, it would push a linkshell to work towards the goal of getting Weapon X, and then sharing it amongst everyone with main job Y to learn that ability.
#35 Jun 04 2009 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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mpmaley wrote:
Quote:
I am not liking this, not having a chance at Relics/Mythics and their weapon skills in FFXI was bad enough. But, not even being able to cap skills and (stay at 74, sort of) unless you can get your hands on that uber rare ultimate weapon sounds like a crippling blow to everyone but the most hardcore of the hardcore, or the gilbuyers...


As long as it's not as hard to acquire as a relic weapon, it would push a linkshell to work towards the goal of getting Weapon X, and then sharing it amongst everyone with main job Y to learn that ability.


What if those weapons are Rare/Ex, how can you share it with everyone then ?
#36 Jun 04 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Good point :P

Well if that were the case I don't think the abilities would be too game breaking, but similar to the weapon skills we see on the relic weapons.
#37 Jun 04 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Default
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I can envision people not getting into endgame linkshells/events just because they don't already have the max skill weapon (ie hard as heck to get equivalent to a Relic/Mythic and it being EX/RA). This possible system opens itself up too much to elitism but a hundred times more pronounced than in FFXI.
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#38 Jun 04 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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mpmaley wrote:
Good point :P

Well if that were the case I don't think the abilities would be too game breaking, but similar to the weapon skills we see on the relic weapons.


True, if you get your most powerful ability/skill without reaching the cap skill then it would be ok but then what would be the point in getting that weapon at all ?
#39 Jun 04 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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#40 Jun 04 2009 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:

I think a system like this would satisfy the desires to have the flexibility and customization of the current sub job system. The challenge for the devs would be to figure out the proper budget for abilities that are on par with Convert or Utsusemi.

But there's also a major advantage to the developers, because now when they want to tweak the game balance later, all they have to do is change the budget value on that particular ability. With the old system, they had to alter the ability itself, or the level at which it was gained, or the way that jobs could use it -- all of which tended to have far-reaching consequences on game balance in other areas. That's probably why the devs were so conservative with changes made to FFXI for so long.

I really hope they implement a system like this, because it's both more flexible/fun than the old system and more balanced. I remember with BLU, at least when I was playing -- sure, you were expected to have a few essential spells equipped in a party at each level, but there were enough slots that you could fill out a lot of them with stuff that you just wanted to use for fun. That's the kind of thing I want to see everywhere.

Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

Not necessarily, because we're talking about characters that will be developed over very long periods of time as the game progresses. If, for example, a player were to stick primarily to solo play, they would probably end up a hybrid of sorts because they're relying on that one character to do everything; take damage, do damage (potentially of a variety of types to exploit monster weaknesses), buff, and heal.


How will this play out if that person want to party ? No one will invite him cause of his "solo" build or ?

If traditional levels are abolished, maybe you'll be invited into parties on the basis of your highest skill. Maybe you'll be fighting level 30 mobs after playing the same amount of time as someone specialized who's fighting level 60 mobs, but you can do a lot more than he could when he was at that level and you'll be able to do more when you're at his level.
#41 Jun 04 2009 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

Not necessarily, because we're talking about characters that will be developed over very long periods of time as the game progresses. If, for example, a player were to stick primarily to solo play, they would probably end up a hybrid of sorts because they're relying on that one character to do everything; take damage, do damage (potentially of a variety of types to exploit monster weaknesses), buff, and heal.


How will this play out if that person want to party ? No one will invite him cause of his "solo" build or ?


He'd resemble an RDM.
#42 Jun 04 2009 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
This is from the latest IGN interview video:

"One of the things we really liked about FFXI was the job system ... we plan to expand on that job system and offer even more options in a different way...

We believe the combat system in FFXIV will be very different from the combat system in FFXI. We believe it will be closer to that real-time battle that you see in other MMOs. First of all, the job type of system will be very different. It depends on, again, the style of play that the player wants for this day, they'll choose this weapon and using that weapon they will develop in that certain way, and next day maybe they'll chose another weapon for a different type of battle and their character will develop in a different way."



What I get from this is that the weapon type you choose will help define your character, not that specific weapons will grant you training abilities like in FFTA.


Edited, Jun 4th 2009 12:49pm by digitalcraft
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#43 Jun 04 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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But how will this weapon thing work with magic jobs?
Will a caster be able to melee stuff or does the weapon usage includes other methods?
This looks pretty interesting to me.
#44 Jun 04 2009 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
Eeri wrote:
But how will this weapon thing work with magic jobs?
Will a caster be able to melee stuff or does the weapon usage includes other methods?
This looks pretty interesting to me.


Complete guess but I'd say something like if you equip a staff, you're a white mage, rod for black mage, maybe some other things like that? Eh possible maybe?
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#45 Jun 04 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Borkachev wrote:

But there's also a major advantage to the developers, because now when they want to tweak the game balance later, all they have to do is change the budget value on that particular ability. With the old system, they had to alter the ability itself, or the level at which it was gained, or the way that jobs could use it -- all of which tended to have far-reaching consequences on game balance in other areas. That's probably why the devs were so conservative with changes made to FFXI for so long.



I think this is all definitely true. They can limit abilities by cost, they can make them simply unable to be used as a sub ability, or they can (in rare cases) make them so that they simply cannot be learned. If you want to cast Ultima, maybe you always have to have the Ultima Rod (or whatever item) equipped, and that's that. There's a lot more flexibility for the developers if they use a system like this.


Borkachev wrote:
I really hope they implement a system like this, because it's both more flexible/fun than the old system and more balanced. I remember with BLU, at least when I was playing -- sure, you were expected to have a few essential spells equipped in a party at each level, but there were enough slots that you could fill out a lot of them with stuff that you just wanted to use for fun. That's the kind of thing I want to see everywhere.


I agree. I feel like the way they implemented BLU was pretty amazing in terms of forcing you to really take a lot of things into account, but still providing you with a LOT of room to personalize things. This is, IMO the best of both worlds. It might have been easier to do with BLU specifically though because it is largely a DD job. You can get by with 1-2 crucial abilities if you absolutely have to. It might not work so well if you are being asked to tank, for example, because you would be expected to choose all of your abilities based on mitigating damage and generating threat.

I think the fun part of a new game or even a new job is seeing how the pieces fit together. I am really looking forward to knowing a lot more about how the new character system will work. I want to play something that is fresh, but not totally alien (unless it's just freaking amazing, which is hard to predict).

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 4:04pm by KarlHungis
#46 Jun 04 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Eeri wrote:
But how will this weapon thing work with magic jobs?
Will a caster be able to melee stuff or does the weapon usage includes other methods?
This looks pretty interesting to me.


Complete guess but I'd say something like if you equip a staff, you're a white mage, rod for black mage, maybe some other things like that? Eh possible maybe?

Possibly that maybe as mage jobs you get the spell but you don't learn it until you have used it enough times.
#47 Jun 04 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure, if you want to be Ultimate Pimp Jack of All Trades, with a system such as this you could work to train to mediocre levels in every single area and end up a Red Mage.


I don't want to "end up" being anything.. oh well, we'll see I guess.
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#48 Jun 04 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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ok after watching the interview, it does sound interesting.. also, "real time" experience in my opinion would involve the ability to jump whether with a jump button or an "action" button as some others have suggested. Thoughts?
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#49 Jun 04 2009 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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What purpose would jumping serve especially since it's very likely to be no terrain that would require it? :P

They said something about timing, so it would make sense there would be a more active 'action button'.
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#50 Jun 04 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Default
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I think we're overthinking too much, it isn't like there's tons of information and gameplay of it.
#51 Jun 05 2009 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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f you've played The Last Remnant, this will make perfect sense to you as one of SE's newest incarnations of a use-based skill system.

In TLR, you could have your hero equip any weapon (except those rare exceptions where a weapon had a race restriction on it). Depending on the type of weapon, you would have different wield style options (one-handed, two-handed ("power grip"), dual wield, etc.) You then go out and fight and as you fight, you learn new skills based on the weapon type and wield style. Gaining skill with magic use was similar; you have access to different schools of magic and gain skill in those schools by using the spells available to you from that school. Increases to your attributes were based in large part on your choices in combat. Favoring the use of weapons over magic would see more increases to strangth and favoring magic over weapons would lead to more increases in inteligence. Finally, using attacks that required AP (aka MP for simplicity) could yield increases in your AP pool, and taking lots of damage increased the likelihood that your HP pool would grow.

As a result, instead of choosing your class and then deciding your actions as that class while playing the game, you play the game and the game assigns you a title similar to a class name based on your actions. That title can change depending on how you continue to play the character.


I think it will be a mixture of Last Remnant and Tactics Advance. Fight with specific weapon (even casting while wielding magic wands) you gain skills in that weapons class which assigns you a job by meeting specific requirements. Instead of quests you have that system, but it may even allow you to mix and match making certain hybrids. They want to elaborate off the current job system they said themselves it was one of their key features that got great feedback so I am sure you will be able to change jobs once you have unlocked them. I am assuming though the more you use a weapon in that style class you get higher level weapons of the same class which gives you further advancement from there on out you can switch as you please much like tactics. Level up X job and Y job and you unlock Z job. Sounds interesting, but all just speculation
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