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To those of you who defend the long grindFollow

#1 Jun 05 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Interestingly enough, I see a lot of people lamenting the comments made by the devs about shortening the process or making things more casual friendly.

I get what your concern is. I know that there's some thing great associated with achieving 75 after a lot of work.

Answer me this though... IF you have at least 2 75 jobs.... check your played time. Does it not wake you up to just how much time you've spent in the game?

I mean, I know people with over a HALF A YEAR of in game time.... Imagine doing that without stopping... that's.... well that's wrong.

The point I'm making is that it's a good thing to lower the grind because those of us who have made this insane grind and put in the same time... shouldn't have.

SE will always find ways to add content... there will be more missions... epic story lines.... side things like pankration, MMM, yadda yadda... there will be timesinks...

I'm just not convinced that the major timesink should be actually getting a job up there and seeing content. That could be saved for other stuff.
#2 Jun 05 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
For those of us that usually enjoy the grinding, just because they make it easier doesn't mean its going to stop us from spending insane amounts of time leveling jobs in FFXIV.

Some of us will just end up reaching our goal sooner, get bored and leave.

If you look at it, it doesn't matter if you're grinding jobs for fun or have decided that end game is your thing. There is no real difference between one play time and the other, you just spend it differently.
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#3 Jun 05 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Grinds are filler. They're there because of budget and time constraints in game production, not because they're a good aspect of the game. If MMORPG developers had infinite time and money they wouldn't make games with grinds. It's far cheaper to have a player repeat the same content 100 times over than it is to create 100 different types of content for the player to try once.

Grinds are a necessary evil in most MMORPGs. It's realistically impossible to eliminate them completely, but that doesn't mean players should simply accept them, and it certainly doesn't mean players should withdrawal into denial and try to pretend grinding is good.

Developers should be encouraged to reduce grinds and think of creative solutions to meet the gap between financial viability and player satisfaction.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 12:58pm by Allegory
#4 Jun 05 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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Only half a year?

lol.

I have well over a year, and I know people who have more time logged than me.





Although much of it is afk time, since I just left ffxi and my comp on 24/7.
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#5 Jun 05 2009 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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A better question is:

Those of you with multiple 75s, how much time do you spend playing each job you enjoy, and how many did you level because you felt you had to for the betterment of your shell?

For example, how many people out there have BRD, DRK, WHM leveled to 75, love DRK as their favorite job, but find they play BRD most because they have one and only leveled WHM for convenience of their shell (just an example). Now how many more people have COR and BRD leveled as well as SAM, DRG, WAR, DRK, and RNG? Do you find that you use SAM more than DRG so DRG just collects dust? ...Or BRD more than COR?

Wouldn't this just feel like a lot of wasted time sink if you reflect on how many leveled jobs you have simply to add another level 75 to you list of accolades instead of the one job you wanted to play all the time?
#6 Jun 05 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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The people that stuck out FF for a few years, I would hope, enjoy much of the grind. I, for one, like the feeling of being in a good exp party rolling smoothly through mobs, and I'm sure some other people liked it as well. It was all of the bad parties that made the experience painful.

But, now that I'm no longer in college with all of the free time in the world, I don't think I could handle the sort of time commitment that was required for a party. I'm hoping that there is some "level" grinding, that it's hard and rewarding, but I also hope that it doesn't take 3 hours before I can start when I feel like it, which it sounds like I won't have to.
#7 Jun 05 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Default
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The real question is how much time is spent waiting on parties, traveling to parties kill a couple of mobs and then disband cause the party doesn't work.

The way I see it biggest problem was that in order to play effective you need to have your subjob max all the time so you don't look only to 1 lvl 75 job but often at 2 jobs that also need to be 37.

The whole grinding isn't that bad but it was more the waiting times and often the penalties that made it harder.
If you couldn't play for 3 hours straight you couldn't level very good.

So I really hope that they make the leveling to max level a bit more casual with either more solo content or less penalties on dying or a bit of both.

Any news if we will have subjobs in ffxiv or is that not available yet.
#8 Jun 05 2009 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Maybe they'll give you the option that certain world servers will be more "elite", meaning more exp needed per level? Harder mobs? something like that for those who like to grind.
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#9 Jun 05 2009 at 11:06 AM Rating: Default
They should make it take a long time and be challenging to reach the end/max level, but making the process of getting there fun for everyone. Its no fun when everyone has exactly the same jobs to the max level. There is no sense of achievement, only mediocrity.
#10 Jun 05 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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There has to be some form of accomplishment there. It should be fun but as well as something you need to work at. If the grind is fast and easy you end up with nothing but endgame players with the low levels being boring and pointless, if its too long and redundant then people will get tired and annoyed. There needs to be some type of balance that keeps people spread out across all over levels.

If I've been playing for a year I want my character to be stronger than someone that's only been playing for a month, and I want fun ways to continue to advance. But those people just starting need to be able to catch up with veterans too, this once again brings in the balance issue.
#11 Jun 05 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Default
Well said Westyle.
#12 Jun 05 2009 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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Westyle wrote:
There has to be some form of accomplishment there. It should be fun but as well as something you need to work at. If the grind is fast and easy you end up with nothing but endgame players with the low levels being boring and pointless, if its too long and redundant then people will get tired and annoyed. There needs to be some type of balance that keeps people spread out across all over levels.

No one is saying it should be fast and easy. People are saying it shouldn't be a grind.

Let's say it takes a normal person 9 months to reach max level. You can put in whatever amount of time you want, that's not the point. Would you prefer to spend the entire nine months killing a single type of monster over and over again every single day? Or would you prefer to have different quest and adventures to complete while journeying to different areas and trying different types of game play to reach max level?

It can be difficult. It can take time. But it shouldn't be repetitive.
#13 Jun 05 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm all for different ways of gaining experience. When I started up FFXI I was disappointed when I saw that nearly none of the quests gave exp as rewards and the ones that did could only be performed once a day or week and required a large group and a collection of low level armor (this was before Aht Urghan). It was just hoping some party would take pity on your job choice and invite you.
#14 Jun 05 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Default
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Personally the grind doesnt really bother me depending on the day. If the parties I get are terrible the grind is long and boring. If the group is fun and talkative and has a good time joking around while also xping those grinds are the best. I would like so see some epic adventures going down kinda like mini-story lines that make the game kinda interesting when the grind becomes too much to handle.

And by mini-story lines I mean something kinda like the missions in Guildwars. Where you get a group together and you run a full scale mission. But increase it to a story line like atmosphere.

Edit end!

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 4:21pm by TheFlyingGoat
#15 Jun 05 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Remember what they said. They are creating a system of content that will allow both casual players and hardcore players to have fun with. What this means is that people with less time will have something to do while hardcore players will have something to do and probably grinding. SE wants to accomodate both players who only have 40 minutes to play and players who have a whole day to play. If you have the whole day then you can just go grind as you loved to. I'm pretty sure SE knows what they are doing and they will provide enough content to keep you entertained for years. Remember they've been looking over FFXI for 7 years. They know what works and doesn't works.
#16 Jun 05 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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i think leveling your weapon will be the new grind instead of your character or so it seem after reading the interview. kinda make me wonder if your weapons and armor are the key role that will decided your progression. the stronger your skill and armor the stronger you are. that sort of the hint im getting from it.
#17 Jun 05 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay so there is a very fine line between Grinding Exp and Grinding Quests. The whole reason i quite the game was because i didnt have time to seek for a party for hours then travel for 30 min then set up a camp then grind for hours for a couple lvls. That is just insane though i loved the game for what it was. I loved skill chains sub jobs and the psuedo familar feel of a Final Fantasy Game.

Then I picked up wow. And i played for maybe a year. It was cool I stopped because I was too adicted and realized that I needed to spend more time in the MMORPG called LIFE. I have a son and a wife know and am writing two books. So I decided hmm WoW should be given another shot I just need to balance it out with what really is important to me. It worked fine but I realized how much of a monaugtonus feel the game had. Find a quest and kill monsters. Find a new quest go kill monsters. And that would have been fine if they quests where part of a greater story. IMO it was just busy work. Lame rinse and repeat busy work.

So what I feel needs to be done is make the quests in FF rewarding to character development which is what they are stressing anyway right character "GROWTH" if I kill something for a quest make it interesting and not you kill these because I said so. And make the work worth the means. If I quest for a half an hour make it worth that precious 30 min I spent of my life playing a video game worth it to me. Anywho. That is what I feel needs to be done. I want an epic storyline that makes the grinding and the hours I spend meaningful. I know you can do it because you have made some of the best RPG's to date. I guess what I am trying to say is instead of focusing on lvling up as fast as possible and slow lvling it will all be worth it if you break the mold and make an MMORPG more about the story then the lvling how fast can i get to the cap so i can pvp and endgame gear. Because once you get to the "End" thats all you get to look forward to. =(

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I can go on for a while you get the point so make this an amazing worthwhile journey.
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#18 Jun 05 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that all "jobs" need to be equally desirable. Having 6 different DD jobs is ok, but what good is it when 2 or 3 of them are ostracized because they are MP dependent or not as popular? Black Mages for example... I can't remember the last time I partied with one in FFXI... the job is a major staple in FF series, but not now... because they have to rest for MP so it's slower than just taking another Samurai?

If you have a grind game, you don't want to get in the trap that only half the jobs grind well.
#19 Jun 05 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Default
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hopefully this time around mages have some sort of a better mp regeneration then ffxi, that was pretty much one of the reason why i even stop leveling black mage.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 5:03pm by gaiaxzero
#20Rawkuss, Posted: Jun 05 2009 at 1:14 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) "The grind" has prolly saved lots of people lots of money. In fact, if u look at it in a certain way, you're actually getting paid to play the game ^^. Though i'm sure the game has stopped many people from goin out and earning money too...i like the other thought better >.>
#21 Jun 05 2009 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I lose interest in other games when I'm playing an MMO, its like "I better hurry up and beat this game so I can get back to <MMO>"
#22 Jun 05 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Grinding sucks, no matter what the case is. You'll hate it, you'll find it boring, you'll find yourself wondering why you do it in the first place.

What makes it tolerable is the people you play with.
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#23 Jun 05 2009 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Westyle wrote:
I lose interest in other games when I'm playing an MMO, its like "I better hurry up and beat this game so I can get back to <MMO>"


lmao that actually what happens to me i still have a whole mess of games unopen cause of ffxi.
#24 Jun 05 2009 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Mjrna wrote:
A better question is:

Those of you with multiple 75s, how much time do you spend playing each job you enjoy, and how many did you level because you felt you had to for the betterment of your shell?

For example, how many people out there have BRD, DRK, WHM leveled to 75, love DRK as their favorite job, but find they play BRD most because they have one and only leveled WHM for convenience of their shell (just an example). Now how many more people have COR and BRD leveled as well as SAM, DRG, WAR, DRK, and RNG? Do you find that you use SAM more than DRG so DRG just collects dust? ...Or BRD more than COR?

Wouldn't this just feel like a lot of wasted time sink if you reflect on how many leveled jobs you have simply to add another level 75 to you list of accolades instead of the one job you wanted to play all the time?


I used all the jobs I leveled to 75 for different things.
I refuse to roll alts or level new jobs beyond 37 with out a specific reason. I switched between them very often. I only had one problem that nobody would invite my whm to merits because I had a rdm instead.

edit: It was such a great freedom I don't feel at all in WoW right now... I feel so constrained when I cant just have everything I want when ever I want like I did in FFXI...

That was the other thing too. When ever I was grind in FFXI I felt like I was working toward bettering my character as a whole. Leveling a new sub was cool because I wanted to figure out how to use it with my 75 jobs. It was all about one defined goal. When ever I consider rolling an alt in wow I think about it as starting over again and gaining very little...

At least the grind was always moving forward. It always mattered and gear I got upgraded all of my jobs in some way. I remember getting my first peacock charm and instantly realizing how it effected everything about melee on all my jobs.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 6:09pm by thorazinekizzez
#25 Jun 05 2009 at 2:18 PM Rating: Default
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The point is it is different BECAUSE of the grind. If you don't want the grind then just go away. Put in the hours in some other game. This is how FFXI kept me in. I had to try to continue, rather than just log on and go yawn, kill mobs for exp from quest and rinse and repeat all by myself. I would much rather spend the time getting a party together, finding a camp and then working together to get some exp while talking and having fun along the way.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 10:26pm by Feyted
#26 Jun 05 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
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They said there's gonna be EXP gring lol.

As for me, i enjoyed playing the 3 different 75 jobs i had.
#27 Jun 05 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The point is it is different BECAUSE of the grind. If you don't want the grind then just go away. Put in the hours in some other game. This is how FFXI kept me in. I had to try to continue, rather than just log on and go yawn, kill mobs for exp from quest and rinse and repeat all by myself. I would much rather spend the time getting a party together, finding a camp and then working together to get some exp while talking and having fun along the way.


I think this really just depends on what you are defining as a grind. While some see it as the above statement, some see it more as...

Quote:
Let's say it takes a normal person 9 months to reach max level. You can put in whatever amount of time you want, that's not the point. Would you prefer to spend the entire nine months killing a single type of monster over and over again every single day? Or would you prefer to have different quest and adventures to complete while journeying to different areas and trying different types of game play to reach max level?

It can be difficult. It can take time. But it shouldn't be repetitive.


This can be why people say, "When I log on I feel like I'm just going to a different job."

On the other hand, a lot of people like their jobs because, "they meet new and fun challenges everyday. No day is the same."

You can grind in an MMO and you can grind in real life. Just to some, they already grind in real life, they want a game that is free from the monotony. It's not the time itself that is spent in game, it's how that time was spent. The metaphor could be applied to real life as well.


Edited, Jun 5th 2009 6:51pm by Robere
#28 Jun 05 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Default
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Robere wrote:

You can grind in an MMO and you can grind in real life. Just to some, they already grind in real life, they want a game that they can experience. It's not the time itself that is spent in game, it's how that time was spent. Metaphor could be attached to real life as well.


Well, you can also say there are different types of MMO:s that suit different types of players, if you don’t like the "grinding" part of an MMO there are many MMO:s that will cater you, try to find those. Also there are of course offline games that can easily cater you if you don’t like grinding.
#29 Jun 05 2009 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:
Robere wrote:

You can grind in an MMO and you can grind in real life. Just to some, they already grind in real life, they want a game that they can experience. It's not the time itself that is spent in game, it's how that time was spent. Metaphor could be attached to real life as well.


Well, you can also say there are different types of MMO:s that suit different types of players, if you don’t like the "grinding" part of an MMO there are many MMO:s that will cater you, try to find those. Also there are of course offline games that can easily cater you if you don’t like grinding.


Or if you really like grinding, you can stick with FFXI.

Remember, we're talking about a new game here. It isn't FFXI-2. Open your mind a little...

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#30 Jun 05 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Default
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Pickins wrote:


Or if you really like grinding, you can stick with FFXI.

Remember, we're talking about a new game here. It isn't FFXI-2. Open your mind a little...



I have stopped playing FFXI since 2004, my point was that each MMO has its type of playerbase. I base my assumption on that since SE is comfortable with FFXI and they said that that will bring in a lot of aspect and game system from FFXI into FF14. It's only natural really, why break a wheel or reinvent a wheel when it works for you ? So expect to see a lof of similarities to FFXI, meaning it will have the elements of the hardcore gringding that FFXI, but now also to some degree soloable content.

We can further argue, if Blizzard releases a WoW successor, will they derivate a lot from how Wow is? For example, remove solo play, make it ultra hardcore, remove PvP, and remove instances? I don’t think I need to answer that for you.
#31 Jun 05 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Default
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They stated in an interview ther will be no exp. Grinding can be made fun if done right. I want to feel as if I am playing an offline rpg with the mmo being a friend base to enjoy the story with. I want to feel as if I am playing FF7 and 6 with an epic story and being able to experience it with multiple people. That is what I think MMORPG's in general are missing. Eveyone logs on and says man I got to get to the next lvl, and not man I cant wait to see what happens in the next chapter of this amazing story. I know it can be done.
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#32 Jun 05 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
From what SE has said it seems that the grind i.e from minimum dev to maximum dev is going to be very much Story driven so my thoughts are that we may find in this new ff title alot more points where we are given options as to what we want our characters to do/say during the quests/adventures/etc that could actually change the course of where the story is headed for our individual characters and we will be awarded points towards our characters developement as we keep progressing. Ofcourse the challenge that this would pose to SE is to come up with so many options without losing the quality of the story, but if anyone could pull it off i believe square enix can ofcourse we will have to see.

That being said i think there is still likely to be some form of grind in the game besides the storyline of which i hope both dont feel so much like grinding, like they said it will be a case of one day you can do this and another you can do something else. What would also be nice is some casual and enjoyable minigames for when you are waiting on ppl or something, since all we really got were those tables that i never really used but i believe you were supposed to bet on them or something but like i said i never used them and i never saw anyone using them in my 3 years of play. Then there was ofcourse the chocobo raising/racing/digging(havent tried it myself) of which racing really seemed to have a grind of its own as when you hit the point of your chocobos maximum stats via feeding and raising you were required to race your chocobo over and over and over. Of which the racing really did not give you any control over besides the food used during the race and you were forced to do these races a heck of alot to pay for the choco decernment training. I bassically gave up after like the 50th time i put my choco on the track and had only managed to get 1 chocobo decernment training out of it.
#33 Jun 05 2009 at 3:48 PM Rating: Default
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Maldavian wrote:
Pickins wrote:


Or if you really like grinding, you can stick with FFXI.

Remember, we're talking about a new game here. It isn't FFXI-2. Open your mind a little...



I have stopped playing FFXI since 2004, my point was that each MMO has its type of playerbase. I base my assumption on that since SE is comfortable with FFXI and they said that that will bring in a lot of aspect and game system from FFXI into FF14. It's only natural really, why break a wheel or reinvent a wheel when it works for you ? So expect to see a lof of similarities to FFXI, meaning it will have the elements of the hardcore gringding that FFXI, but now also to some degree soloable content.


You keep rejecting the reality as if clinging to some weak sense of denial is going to prevent SE from doing what they've said they're going to do.

FFXIV will not be a game for hardcore players with scraps thrown to casuals for a few extra bucks in SE's coffers every month. FFXIV was not intended to be a successor to FFXI. It was intended as a project that would result in the best Final Fantasy title ever made, and they decided early in the development process that in order to achieve that goal it should be an MMO. There are things that work in FFXI that I would love to see in the new game. There are also a lot of things that didn't work in FFXI, and I'll be happy to see them excluded.

FFXIV is going to cost SE a lot more money to make and maintain than FFXI ever did, and they're going to need to keep a larger playerbase happier for longer than they did with FFXI. That excludes the concept of FFXIV being directed primarily to the hardcore audience.
#34 Jun 05 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
You keep rejecting the reality as if clinging to some weak sense of denial is going to prevent SE from doing what they've said they're going to do.

While Maldavian may be mostly wrong about what SE should do, I'm not quite as certain as you about what SE will do. Their intent may be to create a casual game, but I'm not sure that will play out as we see it.
#35 Jun 05 2009 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Galeofthedragonknight wrote:
From what SE has said it seems that the grind i.e from minimum dev to maximum dev is going to be very much Story driven so my thoughts are that we may find in this new ff title alot more points where we are given options as to what we want our characters to do/say during the quests/adventures/etc that could actually change the course of where the story is headed for our individual characters and we will be awarded points towards our characters developement as we keep progressing. Ofcourse the challenge that this would pose to SE is to come up with so many options without losing the quality of the story, but if anyone could pull it off i believe square enix can ofcourse we will have to see.


I’m really skeptical as to using story for character growth, since usually the story part of an mmo, people finish it relatively quickly and do not need to repeat it. Meaning they won’t be enough story or mission to occupy players for a longer time period. IIRC the missions in FFXI didn’t take that long to finish and people had to always wait for SE to release new mission, and in those endless waiting we could rely on good old end game content, leveling up jobs and crafting. So yet again, without the grinding element the game will fail hard. People will get bored after they finish up the mission/quest content and leave the game.
#36 Jun 05 2009 at 4:08 PM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
You keep rejecting the reality as if clinging to some weak sense of denial is going to prevent SE from doing what they've said they're going to do.

While Maldavian may be mostly wrong about what SE should do, I'm not quite as certain as you about what SE will do. Their intent may be to create a casual game, but I'm not sure that will play out as we see it.


You're right in a very important sense...there have been at least two MMOs that have come out fairly recently (AoC and WAR) that did not in any way live up to the hype. The developers expressed a certain intention and inspired hope in players who were looking for what the devs said they were going to offer only to arrive in-game and find a huge discrepancy between the stated intent and the reality.

That having been said, I think it's silly for someone to have access to all kinds of different interviews and press conferences and argue that the game is going to end up to suit that individual's preferences as opposed to what the devs have said they're wanting to offer.
#37 Jun 05 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Default
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Maldavian wrote:
I’m really skeptical as to using story for character growth, since usually the story part of an mmo, people finish it relatively quickly and do not need to repeat it. Meaning they won’t be enough story or mission to occupy players for a longer time period. IIRC the missions in FFXI didn’t take that long to finish and people had to always wait for SE to release new mission, and in those endless waiting we could rely on good old end game content, leveling up jobs and crafting. So yet again, without the grinding element the game will fail hard. People will get bored after they finish up the mission/quest content and leave the game.


It wouldn't be hard, and SE has never said that progressing through the story will be the only way to develop your characters. They could set it up so that you follow a particular branch of the story and at the end of it, you unlock certain options for your character to develop. Progress through a different branch and you unlock yet another option. Progress through the main branch and you unlock still more options. That's just an example of one of the myraid ways they could use story progression as part of character development. As far as what they actually do is obviously yet to be seen, but if you look at it outside the constraints of FFXI and with an open mind, it's not hard to visualize.
#38 Jun 05 2009 at 4:30 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:
You keep rejecting the reality as if clinging to some weak sense of denial is going to prevent SE from doing what they've said they're going to do.


I predicted that they weren’t going to implement a PvP system, and I presented my argument pretty straightforward and got a confirmation on it during the intervju by the FF14 dev team, it has nothing to do about denial or wishful thinking, it’s about common sense and facts. And also to put yourself into SE shoes and think from their business perspective, Japanese mentality and history track record and how SE usually is developing games.

Quote:
FFXIV will not be a game for hardcore players with scraps thrown to casuals for a few extra bucks in SE's coffers every month. FFXIV was not intended to be a successor to FFXI.


Depends how you _define_ a successor. Of course its not a direct follow up, for example EQ1 and EQ2, Linage 1&2, those games were never a direct follow-up yet they contained very similar elements from their predecessors.

Quote:
It was intended as a project that would result in the best Final Fantasy title ever made, and they decided early in the development process that in order to achieve that goal it should be an MMO. There are things that work in FFXI that I would love to see in the new game. There are also a lot of things that didn't work in FFXI, and I'll be happy to see them excluded.FFXIV is going to cost SE a lot more money to make and maintain than FFXI ever did, and they're going to need to keep a larger playerbase happier for longer than they did with FFXI. That excludes the concept of FFXIV being directed primarily to the hardcore audience.


Not necessary true, again, how many hardcore/semi hardcore players do you have in the MMO market today? 3 or 4 million? If SE can monopolize on that and have a stable 3 to 4 million users for a period that FFXI has lasted, I think they will be extremely satisfied.

Again we don’t really know what path SE has taken, I’m only going by their track record on how they have developed their previous MMO. Also they have monitored the MMO market and looked closely on what other MMO that came out and if they failed or succeeded during all these years. They have also analyzed as to why they failed or succeeded. AoC, Warhammer, Aion, LotRO and so on. I think SE needs to do something different; something that does not mimics other MMO’s to be able to succeed.
#39 Jun 05 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir wrote:

It wouldn't be hard, and SE has never said that progressing through the story will be the only way to develop your characters. They could set it up so that you follow a particular branch of the story and at the end of it, you unlock certain options for your character to develop. Progress through a different branch and you unlock yet another option. Progress through the main branch and you unlock still more options. That's just an example of one of the myraid ways they could use story progression as part of character development. As far as what they actually do is obviously yet to be seen, but if you look at it outside the constraints of FFXI and with an open mind, it's not hard to visualize.


That pretty much how Star Wars: The Old Republic is being developed, not sure that would really fit into FF14 and I have said this many times "Don’t try to copy other MMO:s try to be original"
#40 Jun 05 2009 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:
I predicted that they weren’t going to implement a PvP system

You didn't predict, you guessed. Furthermore, you guess with the majority. I didn't think they would have pvp either. I'm not sure anyone really thought they would have pvp.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 7:41pm by Allegory
#41 Jun 05 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Default
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Grinding is not a problem as long as you constantly have something fun to do. FFXI lacks stuff on the jobs to make it fun to level.

Pick for example PUP. The only difference between a level 1 and level 75 is pretty much stats and spell list. Sharpshot puppet for example just learns one or two WSes on the whole way. That is all that frame gains during 75 long levels.

WoW does it much better with constant small things each level so that you really feel like you are progressing. It is much more fun to get something new, than to play level 15-30 on THF just to get TA in addition to SA. (Sure, one or two WSes come there too, but overall it is very little progress you do)

It sounds like SE is trying to fix just this in XIV, with a more progress based approach.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 3:21am by Mellowy
#42 Jun 05 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Default
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Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:

It wouldn't be hard, and SE has never said that progressing through the story will be the only way to develop your characters. They could set it up so that you follow a particular branch of the story and at the end of it, you unlock certain options for your character to develop. Progress through a different branch and you unlock yet another option. Progress through the main branch and you unlock still more options. That's just an example of one of the myraid ways they could use story progression as part of character development. As far as what they actually do is obviously yet to be seen, but if you look at it outside the constraints of FFXI and with an open mind, it's not hard to visualize.


That pretty much how Star Wars: The Old Republic is being developed, not sure that would really fit into FF14 and I have said this many times "Don’t try to copy other MMO:s try to be original"


Dont copy other mmo's? How do you think all these mmo are created, modified, revamp. All mmo borrow aspect and ideas from each other to see if it would work in there games. This has been around since games have become a big play in the gaming world. The only reason why i feel your so negative is that in every post you done the most word i seen is failure, but how can you judge a game before it even comes out.

True to the fact that SE, may some time not do thing that ppl might agree upon, you would have to understand they would'nt be around if they did'nt know what they were doing and final fantasy would'nt have become this wide phonomanon. You keep mention failure, but yet you also mention you stop playing in 2004 and yet the game still continue on.

Your not going to like everything the game has to offer, but the point is to take what ever you like in the game and make it yours, there a vast variety in final fantasy some good some bad, but in the end it what you make of the game that make it special. I been playing since 2003 and coming up to my 7th yr on this game and no matter how many time things change i always find some thing in this game that make it worth while and just like the new installment im sure there will be a lot of things to choose upon.

The way i see SE with the new is installment is "you cant make a omelet with out breaking some eggs mentality" they see how ffxi work with all it flaw, it triumphs, failures and success and decided to make ffxiv better then it predecessor by improving every thing they work on from the previous one, with out grinding you think it will fail hard but as i mention, you cant knock some thing down that you have'nt played yet. Instead of having this epic failed mentality open your eyes to a new broad horizon, it a new game, new play, new story, new adventure.

Wax on, wax off daniel son and focus your mind catching the fly with the chopsticks and only then you will find what you seek.
#43 Jun 05 2009 at 5:45 PM Rating: Default
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gaiaxzero wrote:


Dont copy other mmo's? How do you think all these mmo are created, modified, revamp. All mmo borrow aspect and ideas from each other to see if it would work in there games. This has been around since games have become a big play in the gaming world. The only reason why i feel your so negative is that in every post you done the most word i seen is failure, but how can you judge a game before it even comes out.

True to the fact that SE, may some time not do thing that ppl might agree upon, you would have to understand they would'nt be around if they did'nt know what they were doing and final fantasy would'nt have become this wide phonomanon. You keep mention failure, but yet you also mention you stop playing in 2004 and yet the game still continue on.

Your not going to like everything the game has to offer, but the point is to take what ever you like in the game and make it yours, there a vast variety in final fantasy some good some bad, but in the end it what you make of the game that make it special. I been playing since 2003 and coming up to my 7th yr on this game and no matter how many time things change i always find some thing in this game that make it worth while and just like the new installment im sure there will be a lot of things to choose upon.

The way i see SE with the new is installment is "you cant make a omelet with out breaking some eggs mentality" they see how ffxi work with all it flaw, it triumphs, failures and success and decided to make ffxiv better then it predecessor by improving every thing they work on from the previous one, with out grinding you think it will fail hard but as i mention, you cant knock some thing down that you have'nt played yet. Instead of having this epic failed mentality open your eyes to a new broad horizon, it a new game, new play, new story, new adventure.

Wax on, wax off daniel son and focus your mind catching the fly with the chopsticks and only then you will find what you seek.


When SE created FFXI they were original, although they did glance at Everquest 1, I think they manages to create a very original MMO. If we check then what has happened in the MMO market we see that SE needs to KEEP that level of originality to be able to launch FF14 successfully. I don’t need to remind you how many MMO:s failed missarbily when they weren’t really original, but tried to copy other MMO:sgame, which ultimately led to their downfall. People played them for a month or two and when they were struck by the similarity of the game they went back the old game that they played.
#44 Jun 05 2009 at 6:05 PM Rating: Default
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Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
You keep rejecting the reality as if clinging to some weak sense of denial is going to prevent SE from doing what they've said they're going to do.


I predicted that they weren’t going to implement a PvP system, and I presented my argument pretty straightforward and got a confirmation on it during the intervju by the FF14 dev team, it has nothing to do about denial or wishful thinking, it’s about common sense and facts. And also to put yourself into SE shoes and think from their business perspective, Japanese mentality and history track record and how SE usually is developing games.


Okay, first...it's interview. Thanks.

If you can read/watch the interviews with the dev team and know that PvP will not be a significant part of FFXIV (or that it will be excluded altogether) how can you not know that it's being aimed at an audience more vast than the hardcore minority?
#45 Jun 05 2009 at 6:06 PM Rating: Default
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441 posts
Maldavian wrote:
gaiaxzero wrote:


Dont copy other mmo's? How do you think all these mmo are created, modified, revamp. All mmo borrow aspect and ideas from each other to see if it would work in there games. This has been around since games have become a big play in the gaming world. The only reason why i feel your so negative is that in every post you done the most word i seen is failure, but how can you judge a game before it even comes out.

True to the fact that SE, may some time not do thing that ppl might agree upon, you would have to understand they would'nt be around if they did'nt know what they were doing and final fantasy would'nt have become this wide phonomanon. You keep mention failure, but yet you also mention you stop playing in 2004 and yet the game still continue on.

Your not going to like everything the game has to offer, but the point is to take what ever you like in the game and make it yours, there a vast variety in final fantasy some good some bad, but in the end it what you make of the game that make it special. I been playing since 2003 and coming up to my 7th yr on this game and no matter how many time things change i always find some thing in this game that make it worth while and just like the new installment im sure there will be a lot of things to choose upon.

The way i see SE with the new is installment is "you cant make a omelet with out breaking some eggs mentality" they see how ffxi work with all it flaw, it triumphs, failures and success and decided to make ffxiv better then it predecessor by improving every thing they work on from the previous one, with out grinding you think it will fail hard but as i mention, you cant knock some thing down that you have'nt played yet. Instead of having this epic failed mentality open your eyes to a new broad horizon, it a new game, new play, new story, new adventure.

Wax on, wax off daniel son and focus your mind catching the fly with the chopsticks and only then you will find what you seek.


When SE created FFXI they were original, although they did glance at Everquest 1, I think they manages to create a very original MMO. If we check then what has happened in the MMO market we see that SE needs to KEEP that level of originality to be able to launch FF14 successfully. I don’t need to remind you how many MMO:s failed missarbily when they weren’t really original, but tried to copy other MMO:sgame, which ultimately led to their downfall. People played them for a month or two and when they were struck by the similarity of the game they went back the old game that they played.


Original? Only story, landscape and some jobs modification was original everything else was not, with exclusion of synthing i believe, as for the aspect of the game it was all the same as any other mmo, things borrow,things use, things taken out.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 10:08pm by gaiaxzero
#46 Jun 05 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Default
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I think the word grind is relative to any MMO you play. When I played WoW it too me a year to get to 80 with amount of time I had to play and I was basically grinding solo. In FFXI it took me over a year to get to 75 and I was grinding with a group of friends. Not much of a difference in time.

It's all about how you enjoy spending your time. Some people like to solo while others like to play in parties.
Comparing WoW to FFXI is comparing apples to oranges. Both games are MMORPGS but each was built with different themes and ideals in mind. FFXI was designed with teamwork and co-op playing in mind while WoW was pick up and play model.

It sounds like FFXIV is going to be an evolution of the current FFXI model. Level Sync = No experience system in the fact that any player can join any party without penalty. It also sounds like a lot of solo options well be there too. Most likely quest xp and xp bonus items. Honestly from the interviews it sounds like PTs will xp by killing multiple mobs at once while solo will be kill one mob at a time affair.
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#47 Jun 05 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Default
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I personally hope they find a way to make it entirely possible to solo to max level but not make it so that once you are 1 level above a monster it is no longer a threat to you.

I really liked the danger aspect of FFXI.

appealing to casuals is great but it also can water a game down too much. My favorite job was BST and I had the most fun leveling it/playing it but used my RDM for a majority of LS events. I had fun leveling RDM in party as well but that got boring alot faster than soloing did for me.

I can remember all my LS mates thinking i was crazy for leveling BST until one day 2 of them needed coffer keys for AF on alt jobs and I showed them the power of a high level bst. After that both of them and about 3 other ppl in my LS started up BST. All but one of them gave up before 35 and never touched the job again. The other was a BST convert from that day on. IMO the way BST was designed was the perfect blend of casual and hardcore (as far as leveling a character up goes).

Where am I going with all this rambling? Well my main point is that I hope they can find a way to make leveling/progressing a toon appeal to casuals but I also hope they keep the element of danger that FFXI had. I hope running some of your friends thru a lower level dungeon still has some threat to you even at max level if you get too much aggro. I hope that there are some lower level quests that take an alliance of lower levels but may still take a party of max level toons to complete. I Hope everything is not instanced So that if I do miss claim on an NM or get beaten to a coffer I have to wait for respawns and not just reset the instance or wait for the lockout to cooldown. I hope there is some down time (altho not as much as in FFXI) between killing mobs for whatever reasons. I hope things like fishing mean you have to spend some time and research going to different areas using different combos of rods/lures/bait to figure out when/where to go to skill up. I hope crafting cannot be PLed to max level in 1 day.

I think we can all agree that at some point during leveling a toon in an MMO is going to feel abit stale but I also think no risk high reward really does not feel that rewarding.

Making an MMO that has the ability to be casual friendly is awesome. Making a causal MMO ends up being an alt grind fest that most of WoW tends to be on non raid nights.

In FFXI I had BST and RDM max level with few others ~ level 45-50 that either played past subjob level with ls parties or soloed as /bst. I loved going fishing or leveling cooking or NM hunting on my BST and doing sky BCNM CoP as (mostly) RDM. I will always and forever be attached emotionally to my BST loooong after FFXI has gone offline and I think being able to solo but it also being a very dangerous long grind created alot of that.

Now in WoW I have fun a few hours a night and occasionally raid but most the time I find I end up leveling an alt and not really caring if one of my 4 80's misses out on a raid or a gear drop. High risk high reward with a decent amount of hard work required to get to max level and then some areas that take some work to flesh the character out {yes please}. Only being able to progress a toon via new equip drops from instanced mobs that really don't pose any threat to my toon at all besides the run back to my corpse and a few gold for equip repairs {No, Thanks. I'm playing solo right now

Sorry for the long ramble and the FFXI v WoW comparisons but those are the only 2 MMO's I have played. FFXI was by far more fun than WoW but the grind did eventually get to me and push me to WoW for the time being (which is ironic being that the general detatchment to my toons ends up in a never ending alt grind). I hope FF14 blows them both out of the water and changes the way MMOs are made. I can't remember the last time I was this excited for a game as an adult. Just making this post makes me want to start my account back up and go solo some goobues in the tree or head to SSG and fish up some grimmonites!

PS Dear SE please please please add a "Sea Horror" somewhere anywhere in the game so that countless newbies get slaughtered on what they think is gonna be a nice serene ride to a far off land loaded with new adventure!
#48 Jun 05 2009 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
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collinevan wrote:
Answer me this though... IF you have at least 2 75 jobs.... check your played time. Does it not wake you up to just how much time you've spent in the game?

I mean, I know people with over a HALF A YEAR of in game time.... Imagine doing that without stopping... that's.... well that's wrong.


Half a year eh? I won't say how much my account has, or how much I've heard from others XD

But honestly, the time I spent getting my first job to 75, and just playing around since then makes up far, far more than half my play time. My second 75 job was significantly quicker, and I'm now nearing my third, which I've sped through the latter levels on.

This is down to a few things. For one, my personal focus in the game. When I first started, I was enjoying the content, trying lots of different things, and not in a massive rush to level. On my second job, I was levelling it for a specific reason, I already had a 75 job, so I had less other things to stop for and slow me down, and I knew other people to level with.

The other change is the systems. Since levelling my third job, level sync has been implemented. This has made things far, far easier. I exp with my LS friends 75% of the time, at anywhere between level 20 and level 70. And if I do want to seek, pickup times seem much easier, as you'll get invites from lower down the levels, if you want them.

I guess I'm drifting from the point of the main post. What I mean is, there's a difference between making it "easy" and making it "accessible".

Now, I don't want FFXIV levelling to be "easy". I don't want people to be able to get to max level just by killing the odd crab in their off time, and never seeing a party. But, I do want it to be accessible. Presumably, SE will carry over and expand on things like Level Sync, Campaign and FoV. This is a good thing. I do want to be able to log on in an evening and be able to gain some exp, either on my own or with a few friends. But, I can do this now in FFXI. It is not an ideal situation now in FFXI, and partying wins out as the best exp option, but it's a very viable option now.

I hope that they continue this trend, while making solo and small group play a more entertaining and equal option. As long as there's some challenge and fun to be had from solo play and quest completion for exp, there's no problem with this. Soloing in FFXI is generally not challenging. You can just either do it or you can't. It's largely based on your level and job. There's some amount of skill to some soloing, like RDM stuff, and also DRG soloing for exp. But no amount of skill is going to let an average melee job solo satisfactory exp without a supporting subjob.

I don't want them to make it shorter, because I want to have fun focusing on individual jobs, rather than just ticking them off the list. And I want people to have earned their way to max level, not just be gifted it because they repeated a simple quest over and over. That's no better than what we have now.

I support a challenge. That doesn't mean I support a grind.
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#49 Jun 05 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Default
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buckingham wrote:
PS Dear SE please please please add a "Sea Horror" somewhere anywhere in the game so that countless newbies get slaughtered on what they think is gonna be a nice serene ride to a far off land loaded with new adventure!


THIS!

but seriously, you really just hit the nail on the head with everything you said.
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#50 Jun 05 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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There's nothing wrong with a long, even endless grind, as long as there's some fun and variety with it. I don't care how hardcore you were, after the 100th hour of killing colibri, it gets ooollllllldddd.
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#51 Jun 06 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I'm just not convinced that the major timesink should be actually getting a job up there


I always thought it was more to grinding than just levelin

Learning and studying the gear you gonna use for the future.

Earning/Farming for the gil to buy the gil for your next level.(the way it was meant...)

Or doing req'd quest for gear that cant be bought for the job.

Qeusting for gear is a major thing in job grinding and if you think about it, if you want good gear, your doing quests, doing endgame stuffs and farming for gils all of its fun.

Quote:
I lose interest in other games when I'm playing an MMO, its like "I better hurry up and beat this game so I can get back to <MMO>


That's funny lol thats how I think now ;p to get back to xi, or I just chip off of the current rpg im playing. Only other games I invest alot of time in is 2d fighters but I play while playing xi...ya multiple setups are nice.
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