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To those of you who defend the long grindFollow

#52 Jun 06 2009 at 8:49 PM Rating: Default
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i cant see how FFXI takes alot of time grinding to 75. the people who whine about it prolly put lfg flag up, sit back, and start whinning they dont get any invites in the past 3 hours. Like mentioned before, looking for the party took most of time. i was 75 in no time with a good static parties with people who knew what to do. when i didnt have a static, i just spammed everyone /sea and got parties ready in 10~15 minutnes.

griding to 75 in ffxi is easy. and its no "filler" either. Its just how the game is. They so populair arcade games which have basicly only 1 content most of the time are still played around the world. think of pacman or tetris. Or even tekken, however they put more content in their games now (which is basicly the same game too, but only from a different angle). and that content is not concidered filler either.



Edited, Jun 7th 2009 12:51am by Akkio
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#53 Jul 24 2009 at 3:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally I love the grind.

I take much more satisfaction working towards a goal over a period of time, than I do having everything given to me with little or no effort involved. For me the fun isnt reaching the end goal as fast as possible, its the journey inbetween.

Yup my total playtime was insane by the time I finally decided to quit, but for me the game was a hobby, a hobby that I thoroughly enjoyed over a 5 year period, and so I consider it time well spent.

Dont get me wrong, there were aspects of grinding that I didnt like, namely the repetativeness of some parts of the game. And I really hope they include a wide array of activities in FFXIV to break some of that repetativeness. I just dont want them to kill the grind completely, like I said, there are a lot of players who enjoy the journey as much as the end goal.

If SE was to give everything to us on a silver platter with no work involved then I feel I would be very dissapointed, and it would kill a lot of the satisfation I feel, whenever you achieve somthing worthwhile.


Edited, Jul 24th 2009 11:04am by GenryuOfBahamut
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#54 Jul 24 2009 at 4:19 AM Rating: Default
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A better question is:

Those of you with multiple 75s, how much time do you spend playing each job you enjoy, and how many did you level because you felt you had to for the betterment of your shell?

For example, how many people out there have BRD, DRK, WHM leveled to 75, love DRK as their favorite job, but find they play BRD most because they have one and only leveled WHM for convenience of their shell (just an example). Now how many more people have COR and BRD leveled as well as SAM, DRG, WAR, DRK, and RNG? Do you find that you use SAM more than DRG so DRG just collects dust? ...Or BRD more than COR?

Wouldn't this just feel like a lot of wasted time sink if you reflect on how many leveled jobs you have simply to add another level 75 to you list of accolades instead of the one job you wanted to play all the time?


No.

A shell is a group of people that come together and work together. To be efficient at endgame in this game you need to have people with different jobs or you need like 100 people in your shell...very inefficient. I like the job system and I hope they don't lose it.
#55 Jul 24 2009 at 6:50 AM Rating: Default
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I have previously posted that I am in favour of the Grind, but the only reason I have stated this is because I do not see a viable "realistic" alternative.

I just don't see another way to increase longevity in an MMO.... yeah sure you could suggest that SE introduce char development and advancement through quests but that is so unrealistic.

What SE would need to do is come up with a system that doesn't have the usual grinding but also doesn't mean that players don't burn though all the content in a matter of weeks..... any of you who have played FFXI or any other MMO know that we can and usually do devote alot of time to MMO play so without the level grind we would be done with the game very quickly.

SE cannot get rid of the level grind in FFXI and replace it with quests as this would be an excessive amount of work that the dev team simply won't be able to commit to.

I did have an idea though. The whole reason in most MMO's people race to endgame is because that is the goal. All of the good content is there. Its were most players aspire to get to, its why lower lvl armour looks like crap and endgame gear looks frikken sweet. What if SE removed the whole system, made the whole FFXIV experience less linear. Instead of you starting at lvl 1 and having a goal of getting to lvl 75 and endgame, you start the game and start becoming more proficient in weapons and spells that you choose to use, no lvl's would be attached just an ongoing quest to explore the world and do endgame events. You could also have all armour/equip being usable from the start but it would increase its stats as you got more profecient with it.

This might (emphasis on the word might) help eleminate the grind, and allow people to enjoy all areas and stages of the game instead of 1 - 75 being a blur of activity that we all try to bypass as swiftly as possible.

Please remember this is an MMO and one of the key ingredients is the prospect of still playing in 2 - 4 years time. If that can be achieved without devoting 4 hours minimum each play session, or 3/4 of your time killing beetles, crabs and crawlers over and over again then that would be ideal.
#56 Jul 24 2009 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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NuckingFuts wrote:
I just don't see another way to increase longevity in an MMO....

Personally, I'd rather have less game than longevity I didn't enjoy yet was forced to endure. Time spent doing something the player doesn't enjoy is time wasted; it's worse than providing nothing for the player to do at all. If players ever feel bored during a grind, and many do, then the developer is better off cutting out that portion that bores the player rather than leaving it in.
NuckingFuts wrote:
yeah sure you could suggest that SE introduce char development and advancement through quests but that is so unrealistic.

I don't think it is. Other games have done it to some extent or another. It is possible, but it depends on what SE has in mind for the design goals of FFXIV and what they will choose to prioritize. I'm not certain what they will do, but they most certainly could do it if they chose to.
NuckingFuts wrote:
I did have an idea though. The whole reason in most MMO's people race to endgame is because that is the goal. All of the good content is there. Its were most players aspire to get to, its why lower lvl armour looks like crap and endgame gear looks frikken sweet. What if SE removed the whole system, made the whole FFXIV experience less linear.

On this point I believe we think alike. I'd too would like to see MMORPG less endgame focused. Leveling shouldn't be a waiting period to get to the good content. Less linear progression would be great.
#57 Jul 25 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Default
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The alternative to replacing grinds would be to have repeat missions to complete kinda like how FoV works. Monster Hunter works this way in you take on instanced missions where the incentive to repeat these missions is to get carves off of mobs to get materials to create weapons armor and items. Soem you need a high quantity of, some are rare, this is what keeps you occupied without feeling like much of a grind since its an action-oriented game(which I hope ffxiv is more like, having to target a mob, and then initiate attack mode is an extremely retarded aspect).
#58 Jul 25 2009 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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There is a middle ground for leveling. I think the main issue (and this is a huge reason some have issues in FFXI with 'the grind') is that players want to feel like they are advancing beyond just a simple number over their characters status saying they are so and so level. You can still have max level take a while/end game progression (Since FFXIV supposedly doesn't have a normal leveling system), but there needs to be content and progression for smaller amounts of work and time. WoW system has new ability sets every two levels and every 1-2 levels in the higher levels. There is also the talent system where every level has a noticiable change that may or may not tweak their strategy for the next several encounters. Basically for a small amount of time, you will progress enough where you literally rethink how you play your job, sure it only really changes depending on your talent settings and between 3-4 different styles between those levels, but you 'feel' like you are not grinding but merely progressing as you go along. WoW has plenty of other problems but its not the leveling system, it has more to do with a combination of not having any content other higher end players want to help you (in lower level dungeons and every piece of gear will be replaced in 2-3 levels so each new piece of gear feels like a stepping stone in progression and you might as well just 'grind' to end game since those lower lvls are meaning less in WoW!) and just going to fast for its own good because of it.

The problem with FFXI is that every level just feels like a stepping stone and only on select levels do you get even a new ability or spell, much less if those spells actually really increase or change your style of play. Its not till the merit system where you realistically feel like your advancing while playing, and by than its just a literal grind for EXP to get ONE thing and not an actual sense of progression since there is nothing after your choices merits to determine your progression.

The perfect medium is advancement of character strength at a pace where little time is required to feel like you are progressing, but have an itemization system and requirement system for content that promotes people to keep going back to old 'level' content (I don't want endgame progress hindered like it is in FFXI for instance where old gear can never be made obsolete at the highest level >_>). This way the lower and mid progression grounds stay fresh no matter what you do and won't feel as much a grind, but it also doesn't hurt the end game from changing its self over time because rerouting your endgame is neccesary to keep giving players fun and fresh activities. The other thing about this though is it also promotes WORTHWHILE activities since a good amount of material SE adds into endgame is useless for certain players that already have 'certain' end game items and it should never be that way. Not asking for a WoW's Burning Crusade style expansion or Wrath of the lich king completely devastate the item status quo every 2-3 months. But you need to freshen the game up by having actual armor upgrades for end game and not horizontal progression for infinity. When you hit that point you are in the screwed if you do, screwed if you don't point FFXI is in where people will complain (often the same people) between making a certain piece obsolete or complaining about the lack of 'fresh' new and worthwhile content.

Edited, Jul 25th 2009 6:18pm by croythegreat
#59 Jul 25 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Grind =! time sink.

There will be FFXIV timesinks, they've said as much with how they want to implement a skill based system that is tailored to each character's individual strengths.

Grind = mindlessly repeating something to get an extra point of something.

We probably won't see much of the pull/kill/pull exp party system found in XI, but there will be other time sinks that could become grind-ish because in an MMO anything that is repeatable and can be done repeatedly to skillup, someone will find a way to do it twice as fast as you, and the herd mentality of any community is to try and match that.
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#60 Jul 25 2009 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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Grind is perception. Its only a grind if its a deterrent to your time vs enjoyment ratio on something 'you' want to achieve. The fact of the matter is Grind will always exist in an MMORPG or anything with a level up/progression system of ANY kind unless they make it linear as **** which is not the point of MMORPGs. The only thing they can do is disguise it by giving you more 'potential' progress for your time playing and allow it to happen by as many varieties as possible.

Grinds are not timesinks, but timesinks can be grinds. (I can call something a grind if its repetitive as **** but only takes like 15 minutes out of a single day XD). Timesinks are neccesary for ANY MMORPG as that is the only reliable way to keep peoples attention long enough for the devs to put out new content. Its all about how they mask the timesink where you don't notice time flowing by or constantly think about so and so event being a deterrent to your joy factor, the minute it gets to that point is where it becomes a 'noticeable' grind, since anything that utilizes a level up method of any kind whether skill or gaining money is technically a grind since your goal inevitably will be max potential :P
#61FruityMONSTA, Posted: Jul 25 2009 at 7:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Personally I'd love a shorter level grind, but a large amount of endgame content, like extra missions and stuff that you are allowed to do at maximum level similar to how WoW was, but with the whole FFXI leveling (parties and stuff) type thing.
#62 Jul 25 2009 at 11:00 PM Rating: Decent
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OP Quote:

Quote:

I'm just not convinced that the major timesink should be actually getting a job up there and seeing content. That could be saved for other stuff.


That is where a lot of the posters differ. The WoW veterns are used to having content ONLY placed at the endgame, and leveling being less involved than... say... FFXI.

The FFXI veterns are used to ALSO having a great deal of content placed at endgame, but also having content placed at areas before the endgame.

The major 'timesink' should NOT be 'getting a job up there and seeing content', the major 'Timesink' should be CONTENT. You should be able to experience group content and IMPORTANT quests chock full of true story development on your way leveling. (BTW if you consider the leveling process a 'timesink' then there is something wrong with either the game you are playing, or your attitude towards a video game).

Quote:
That could be saved for other stuff.


Like what? More endgame on top of endgame? How about something to make it interesting in the leveling process, HOW ABOUT A MIDGAME? You will be playing as the same character through multiple leveling sessions most likely. Why NOT add things that create a midgame playing experience, instead of just letting you spend just 5% of your time breezing through all the myriad of content to get to the same old 3 areas over and over and over again?

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#63 Jul 26 2009 at 7:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Have you any idea how much time is spent watching TV on average? about 4 hours a day.

4 * 365 = 1460 hours a year or almost 61 days a year.

in the last 6 years i've gained 256 days playing FFXI
statisticly i've spent 366 days watching TV.

I'm sure there are people who watch waaay more than 4 hours of TV each day and there are people who have played waay more than 256 days worth or FFXI.

At least while playing a game you're actively engaging your brain even in the most "mindless" of times.

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#64 Jul 26 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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The grind wouldn't be so bad if weren't monotonous. The issue is that the grin in ffxi is stationary, if we were actively accomplishing other tasks OTHER than just EXPing then the grind wouldn't be so bad. The problem stems from the fact that mobs take forever to kill and/or we have to kill a lot of mobs till we get to 75, so much so that we had to devote all of our time on just that aspect alone before we can bother with missions or endgame. The other issue is the fact that the game is has very large instances with no serious direction on what to actually do in these zones since it wasn't until FoV that you were rewarded for fighting these mobs outside of farming drops.

In instanced games theirs a defined direction to go, theirs no wondering what to do, and you tend to get a lot done per instanced run. I of course am referring to games like Phantasy Star Online and Monster Hunter as usual where they weren't massive, yet they gave you plenty to do with plenty of spoils to be had. MH is mission based so you'd be grinding to raise your Hunters Rank while hunting mobs for useful materials to creating other useful things while earning money. PSO gave you the option to either just run down to the dungeons and clear out all the mobs while earning money weapons and items and exp along the way.

In short both of these games have "Synergy" where you don't have all these detached elements playing tug-of-war with you'r time.

In ffxi Adventurer seems to mean glorified errand boy where you'll been jumping through a lot of hoops for peanuts (or a chance to get peanuts). This is particularly due to SE wanting the economy to be driven mostly by the players so they limit NPC transactions which I find pretty retarded. The other games had no central economy and had mainly relied on NPC transactions on the other end of the spectrum. The difference of course is that PSO and MH don't hinder progress while ffxi does what it can to excessively hinder the player.

SE seems to be trying to force virtues down our throats by robbing us of time. Thats not what we play video games for, we learn virtue in REAL LIFE, and sometimes we want to take a break from real life cause its already a grind. Apparently we don't get enough virtue since we have to be doing a lot of running around the world or waiting 1-24 hours to finish/start/get reward.

In the end thats how RMT thrives in the first place, because they are selling/saving their customers time, not virtual currency/assets. We all know the saying that time is money, and apparently people who pay a lot of money to save time in these games know exactly how much their time is worth.

The time we sink into this, or any other game, can never be recovered or reimbursed. Thats a virtue I hope SE understands by now.

Edited, Jul 26th 2009 10:00pm by baltz
#65 Jul 31 2009 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Some of us will just end up reaching our goal sooner, get bored and leave.


I wish. If I could have reached my goal sooner and left, I would have left having reached my goal and had a better experience with the game. I could have gone on to play other games and enjoyed them. One long boring game is not preferable to a short good game.

I used to not mind grinding myself. I think most people have a tolerance for it initially, and I personally had a tremendous tolerance for it. FFXI finally expended that tolerance. Now I can barely stand to grind for an hour in a single player RPG even while making leaps and bounds of progress.

Quote:
On this point I believe we think alike. I'd too would like to see MMORPG less endgame focused. Leveling shouldn't be a waiting period to get to the good content. Less linear progression would be great.


This is why I'm actually a fan of progress caps. I know lots of people hate the idea on principle, but it forces you to forget about reaching the max level and just enjoy the content that's there for your current level.
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#66 Jul 31 2009 at 9:21 PM Rating: Default
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The problem with XI isnt the grind.

Its the fact you need a 3 hour block period to do anything.

If I long in for 45 minutes, I should be able to do 45minutes worth of ****.

If you only have 45mins to play you cant accomplish too much in final fantasy xi, and thats where the problem lies.
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#67 Jul 31 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Default
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Personally, I'd rather have less game than longevity I didn't enjoy yet was forced to endure


SE Disagrees with you. Fact.
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#68 Aug 03 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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I enjoyed the grind in FFXI, it kept me interested and I had a huge sense of accomplishment when I reached my goals. I've played a couple games where the EXP/ game focus was centered on quests, and I didn't last long, it just got really **** boring. I mean, I can only go to X place and kill Y monster so many times for Z EXP. The problem I find is that it's very difficult to have a large variety of quests to keep people interested. I mean just look at the quests at FFXI, the quests pretty much blow, and if I have to do that kind of stuff for EXP, I'm not getting very far.
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#69 Aug 03 2009 at 12:25 PM Rating: Default
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I prefer slow leveling over rushing to max level. It makes me enjoy the game more. I level different classes, try to do as much quest as possible. If I get max level in a few days played I will just get bored. I'd rather level 6 classes to 50% of max level in 1 year then being max level with 1 character in 3 weeks and repeat endgame for a year. What is the use of gearing up a character if you are 10 levels higher next day.

But I do hope there will be more options to get exp solo. I know its a MMO, but sometimes you have only 1 hour to play and in FFXI it seems kinf of useless to even logon with that less time to play.
#70 Aug 03 2009 at 6:58 PM Rating: Default
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The problem with XI isnt the grind.

Its the fact you need a 3 hour block period to do anything.

If I long in for 45 minutes, I should be able to do 45minutes worth of sh*t.


No, it's still the grind. That too, but still the grind. Whether or not I can do 45 minutes of grinding in 45 minutes, or 45 minutes of grinding in 3 hours, it still sucks to do 45 minutes worth of grinding.

If you don't understand the difference between grinding and simply leveling your character-- when I spent a few hours leveling from 53 to 54 standing in the same place, killing the same mobs, performing the same party role, nothing differing substantially from when I was level 52 and leveling to 53, and knowing that I was facing basically the EXACT SAME THING all the way til level 70/75, THAT'S grinding. You don't feel like you're getting better at your job, and there are no new elements to learn-- you're just working on a factory assembly line, whittling your life away to improve the numbers on your character's menu screen.

See, RPGs, and MMOs being no exception, are by nature strategy games. There is nothing strategic about doing the same thing over and over. Nothing strategic about facing the same opponent who is going to use the same tactics over and over, requiring little of your mental acuity.

Now if you get a new trait, ability, or weaponskill every level, every few hours, that changes the way you play the game, and at the same time you encounter opponents who are also quickly changing... then you have something there.
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