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The "Growth System"??Follow

#1 Jun 05 2009 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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I'm going to post what is, my very wild guess, as to what the FFXIV Devs meant when they said "character growth". Please, feel free to agree/disagree and post reasons why this would be good/bad.

My guess is, characters can increase their stats (STR VIT DEX MND INT CHR) and learn abilities as well through Weapons/Armor/Accessories, much like the system utilized in Final Fantasy 9.

Now this is totally an example. A Hume WAR starting from the beginning purchases a full set of Bronze armor (same Lv. 1 stuff from FFXI) and buys a Lv. 1 Axe. Each individual piece of armor will increase various stats, and will "level up" after a certain number of monsters are defeated, either solo or in a party.

Hypothetical stat increases....

Bronze Cap - STR +2 (0/30) <---- this means 20 monsters need to be defeated in order to increase the player's STR stat by 2.
Bronze Harness - VIT +2 (0/30), "Provoke" (0/35)
Bronze Mittens - DEX +2 (0/30), "Mighty Strikes" (0/200)
Bronze Subligar - AGI +1 (0/20)
Bronze Leggings - STR +1 (0/20), "Attack Bonus I" (0/50)
Bronze Axe - STR +1 (0/20)

Now, the WAR caps the stat increases and obtains the abilities by killing the necessary number of mobs. He then changes to THF. Now the armor will change to tailor to a THF's needs and abilities.

Bronze Cap - AGI +1 (0/20)
Bronze Harness - DEX +2 (0/30), "Treasure Hunter I" (0/150)
Bronze Mittens - STR +1 (0/20), CHR +1 (0/20)
Bronze Subligar - AGI +1 (0/20), DEX +1 (0/20)
Bronze Leggings - AGI +1 (0/20), "Perfect Dodge" (0/200)

At least this is my wild guess and even wilder example. As of right now, everything is speculation and I doubt the example above is what they meant, it's simply my wild guess. Feedback is appreciated.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 3:28pm by YeagertheBearded

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 3:28pm by YeagertheBearded
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#2 Jun 05 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Is it really natural growth if you get stronger by using better clothes? In the case of defense maybe but that's it I guess

Also the more you use the cloth the better it gets? Like reversed durability or something? o_o;

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 10:32pm by Hyanmen
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#3 Jun 05 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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Another wild guess...but in order to wear "higher level armors", the character will need to have a minimum stat in order to equip.

Example.

Currently in FFXI, Lv. 7 Leather armor set. In order to equip Leather armor as a WAR, you must have at least 12 STR.

Or as a THF, you must have at least 10 DEX and 10 AGI

Or as a BST, you must have at least 12 CHR.

I know, pretty complex, but at least we won't have "PS2 Limitations" and I THINK a PS3 can handle this. lmao
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Leathercraft/Clothcraft Mule "Andersoncooper"
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#4 Jun 05 2009 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I want to build my character separate from my equipment with the equipment complimenting its abilities. I don't mind some armor having abilities with them but I don't want to be restricted to a single piece.
#5 Jun 05 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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No, once you obtain the ability, it's there permanently and available for use as long as you're on that job.
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Leathercraft/Clothcraft Mule "Andersoncooper"
90.1 Leathercraft (Tanner's Gloves and Tanner's Apron: O)
55.0 Clothcraft
#6 Jun 05 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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They said weapons specifically not equipment. But this system could work. I think it would be pretty cool.
But what determines your job then? The weapon your using ?

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 4:41pm by mezlabor
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#7 Jun 05 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Biggest issue is that they seem to be stressing that there will not necessaily be "jobs" in the sense that FFXI had then, and they also really want to emphasize growth naturally through play, and not just through fighting monsters.
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#8 Jun 05 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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yea sounds like an open skill based system. Im excited I cant wait to see what they've come up with
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#9 Jun 05 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Default
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I'd really like the chance to make my character unique, my own stats and a hybrid of the classes I like.
#10 Jun 05 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I think thats where they're leaning. So if you equiped certain weapons associated with certain job classes youd learn the traits of those classes. If you wanted to make a paladin you'd equip heavy armor and weapons that taught you things like provoke cover armor break, then equip clothe and a rod to teach you whm.
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#11 Jun 05 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd like to see growth through a very complex "Choose your own Adventure" open ended system, ensuring wide job variety, flexibility and complexity. I would also like to pay $1/month for this, heck they should pay me!

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#12 Jun 05 2009 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally I like that idea. Very FF9-esque.
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#13 Jun 05 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Default
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I'll say missions are gonna make us stronger, instead of going to grind, you make missions (with storyline therE) to grow stronger :3

Just a thought of mine though.
#14 Jun 05 2009 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with Squallido but want to add you need to grind out levels in order to access said mission. At least I find that plausible.
#15 Jun 05 2009 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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so quests and missions would give us exp/skills too?
#16 Jun 05 2009 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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GSnicko wrote:
so quests and missions would give us exp/skills too?


Only speculation at this point, we don’t really know.
#17 Jun 05 2009 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes, very much like FFTA, FFTA2 and FFIX on the equipment, but I think the stats and skill ups may be like how Final Fantasy II played. If anyone remembers, if you hit with a sword, your sword skill not only raises, but your strength raises as well. Also, there was no experience levels in that game. However, you could stat-down. Say, the more you cast magic, the lower your strength becomes if over-used. Or, the more you fight with melee and ranged weapons, the lower your intelligence and mind stats go, but your strength and dexterity rises. This would also make gaining HP "easy" by letting yourself get hit and survive the fight to stat-up your HP.
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#18 Jun 05 2009 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Elraton wrote:
Yes, very much like FFTA, FFTA2 and FFIX on the equipment, but I think the stats and skill ups may be like how Final Fantasy II played. If anyone remembers, if you hit with a sword, your sword skill not only raises, but your strength raises as well. Also, there was no experience levels in that game. However, you could stat-down. Say, the more you cast magic, the lower your strength becomes if over-used. Or, the more you fight with melee and ranged weapons, the lower your intelligence and mind stats go, but your strength and dexterity rises. This would also make gaining HP "easy" by letting yourself get hit and survive the fight to stat-up your HP.


So what you are saying that changing job each time requires you to go out and skill up again to reverse your stats that fits the job?

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 7:21pm by Maldavian
#19 Jun 05 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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i theorize that the growth system will bend to something more current.

now id hate to use a non-square-enix title to describe the system but i will anyway.

i think it share similiarities to the Oblivion system. where you use a weapon and its said skill will increase. say you use magic alot your said magic skill grows. if you evade or stealth alot your agility grows. if take alot of hits but never get knocked out your HP grow all the more. etc etc etc

in general this system work until end game where most individuals will have the same build. then again square can surprise us further with some parallel job system that would just make the gameplay grow to your personal stat style.

but who knows till they tell us.
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#20 Jun 05 2009 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I was talking a few months ago about wanting an MMO that relied more on skill and character development than Levels and Gear...

I know this wont be exactly that, but I think it's definitely an interesting concept.

Would be neat to see a mix of FFVII's Materia System with FFX's Stat Customization. But that'd get strange.

::EDIT:: Hey hey 200 posts after like 5 years.


Edited, Jun 5th 2009 8:22pm by KaneIsthara
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#21 Jun 05 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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The example I've used elsewhere that fits the concept is the method employed in The Last Remnant (recent SE offline strategy/RPG for those not familiar).

The whole concept of that game is that you have your hero, and your hero has no real job/class designation. You're given a sword to start off as part of the intro tutorial, but you can very easily change that out for a basic weapon of another type almost right away. Each type of weapon has its own skill category, which is subdivided based on the wield style that you use (1h, 2h ("power grip"), dual wield). The same goes for magic, where it is broken down into different categories (Invocations, Evocations, Psionics, etc.). When you first start the game, your hero has no magic abilities, but you're given the ability to use one school of magic (Evocations, I think) during one of the very first quests. Access to the other schools of magic is gained by completing certain "quests" as you progress through the game.

From there, you develop your attributes based on what you do (and what happens to you) in combat. You develop your skills with a particular weapon or school of magic by using that particular weapon or school. Each category (weapon, school of magic) has different ranks, and within each rank you'll have a certain number of new abilities/spells that you can use. Once you reach a certain rank, you can learn the spells/abilities within that rank fairly quickly by continuing to use that category of ability. Advancing through the ranks is done the same way, it just takes longer.

In other words, you have access to any/every ability in the game on one character if you want, but you only develop the abilities that you use. If you tend to use heavy melee weapons (or "medium" weapons with 2h wield style) your STR will develop fairly quickly. If, on the other hand, you favor lighter weapons or dual wielding, your AGI will develop faster than your STR. If you send your hero in to engage enemies and attack, he's more likely to take damage than if you try to keep him out of combat and use spells from a distance. That means he's going to take more damage, and his max HP increases over time as a function of how often he takes damage.

The game checks at the end of every fight to see where you are in terms of stats and what abilities you've learned up to that point in the game. If you meet certain criteria, you're given a class title. Different classes get different perks, whether it be bonuses to certain attributes/attacks, unique options in combat, etc. but if you decide to focus on an entirely different strategy for your hero in combat, your class can change.

In order for this setup to really work, I think SE would have to have different armor types (ie, light, medium, heavy) to go along with the different types of weapons in order to help delineate how your attributes and skills develop. Say you wanted to make something that very closely resembled a Thief in FF. You'd start the game, head on over to a vendor with your starting gil and buy yourself an Onion Dagger and some light/medium armor. You then head out and start fighting. Because you're using a small weapon, your AGI increases. If AGI were a function of dodge, you'd have a higher chance of dodging attacks than someone with lower dodge. Successfully dodging attacks increases your dodge rating. AGI + light weapon + light/medium armor + dodge = Thief, and when you earn the class designation of THF, along with it might come what you might consider a job-specific ability (ie. Sneak, Pickpocket, whatever). Once you learn the class-specific ability, even if you change the way you play later on, you get to keep the abilities you've learned.

That sort of system is about as open-ended and player-driven as you could really ever hope to get, and it makes a fair bit of sense. The implementation of that system in The Last Remnant was disappointingly cryptic and made it hard to set goals and track your progress, but that could be easily remedied with a bit more development time if SE chose to do so.

Anywhoo...just explaining another system that SE has used for character development for those who may have missed it in another post ;D
#22 Jun 05 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm just hoping they go for a sort of skill tree system. I always loved Diablo 2's system where you got to customize yourself the way you wanted. Sure a majority will just be boring cookie cutter designs, but for people who enjoy playing their way it is always welcome with the ability to go your own path.
#23 Jun 05 2009 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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is there an all natural solution i can use to give my male hume the kind of growth i've been looking for?
#24 Jun 05 2009 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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If and I mean really IF your guess is correct. I would assume that the growth wouldn't be by monster kill. Not in the sense that it would be per enemy you kill more along the line of an AP system kinda like the FF tactics system. The only problem with this type of system is that the equip that did have the Abilities on it such as "treasure hunter" by the basic nature of human greed would be massive in price. This is just the way it seems. Unless they make all the equip with the abilities on it purchasable at a manageable cost from NPC's which would other wise defeat the purpose of an AH system.
#25 Jun 05 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
I'm just hoping they go for a sort of skill tree system. I always loved Diablo 2's system where you got to customize yourself the way you wanted. Sure a majority will just be boring cookie cutter designs, but for people who enjoy playing their way it is always welcome with the ability to go your own path.


Unfortunately, skill tree systems tend to only present the illusion of character customization in MMOs. If you have a static tree and are granted a static number of options to advance through that tree, it's only a very short span of time before the hardcore folks start pumping out cookie cutter builds and then those builds become the standard. I'm not saying it's right and I think it's a shame that players more than developers tend to stomp out diversity because it doesn't produce the "best" results, but that's what tends to happen D:
#26 Jun 05 2009 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The example I've used elsewhere that fits the concept is the method employed in The Last Remnant[...]
Anywhoo...just explaining another system that SE has used for character development for those who may have missed it in another post ;D
This sounds cool, but couldn't someone create a character with amazing BLM power, Melee power, tank power, healing power, etc if given enough time?

edit:
Or can you not get really good at BLM without losing melee skill or something? Maybe SE will want people to start making multiple characters to have multiple classes... I think this sounds like a cool system, though.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 1:15am by TheShadowWalker
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#27 Jun 05 2009 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
Quote:
The example I've used elsewhere that fits the concept is the method employed in The Last Remnant[...]
Anywhoo...just explaining another system that SE has used for character development for those who may have missed it in another post ;D
This sounds cool, but couldn't someone create a character with amazing BLM power, Melee power, tank power, healing power, etc if given enough time?

edit:
Or can you not get really good at BLM without losing melee skill or something? Maybe SE will want people to start making multiple characters to have multiple classes... I think this sounds like a cool system, though.


The idea is that the mechanics of the combat system would impose limits on how much you could do in a fight, instead of the mechanics of the job system.

As an example:

Let's suppose SE uses a system like this and you diligently develop your character over the course of 2 years. In that time, you develop some pretty kickass skills with 2-3 different kinds of melee weapons, shields, all the time you've invested in your character has given you a pretty decent HP pool, and you've developed strong skills in 4-5 different schools of magic (let's say 3 offensive damage, 1 debuff, 1 healing school). You join a group for whatever reason and by all rights, your character is adequately developed so that you coudl fill any role...tank, DD, healer...whatever.

The thing is, even though you've also accumulated different sets of gear suited to those different roles, you can't change gear in combat. If you want to tank an encounter, you've got the gear for that but you're not going to be doing a lot of healing or heavy nuking because you're taking hits and the knockback on your cast times makes it not worthwhile. Not only that, but your tank gear doesn't really do a lot to boost the your dps (physical or magic) or your healing.

My sense is that even if SE builds an incredible amount of diversity into your options to develop your character, there are still going to be clearly defined roles in groups. Those roles can be a lot more dynamic from one encounter to the next, but for the standard run-of-the-mill group grind, you'll still be filling a standard role in one form or another. That's a purely organizational thing...if nobody knows who is tanking or who is healing, stuff might get out of hand. If one person is healing and one person healing is enough to get the job done, the group isn't really being all that effective if someone else who could just as esaily fill a DD role decides to stand back and heal, too. So there would likely still be role assignments for groups that you could reassign partway through to keep things interesting, but the roles will still be there.

The benefit is that essentially everyone has the potential to be a hybrid. Tank is taking heavy damage, healer is barely keeping up, and one of the DD pulls threat? Another sharp DD can toss a heal their way and keep things rolling. Tank is holding his own and not taking a lot of damage? Healer can nuke a bit if they've developed the abilities. Tank goes down near the end of a fight? Heavy armor wearing DD can step in and build/hold threat for a bit and maybe salvage the situation. Very dynamic, potentially very fluid, and diverse. Diverse as all ****.

If SE did something entirely different from the Last Remnant model of development, I'd still love to see that level of diversity in the characters where what you do when, how, and why, is determined based on the situation and the needs of the group as opposed to the job/subjob (or class/spec) you went with months ago.
#28 Jun 05 2009 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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That sounds pretty awesome. They'll definitely have to eliminate gear swapping mid-battle for that, though. Maybe even impose a small time buffer (5-6 seconds) after disengaging from a mob.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
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