Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

Preemptively Combating RMT in FFXIVFollow

#1 Jun 06 2009 at 11:11 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
288 posts
What ways have you thought of to do this? While there are certainly some pretty bad aspects of FFXI (24 hour NM pop ect), the RMT influence has always been the one that has bothered me the most.

My idea has been to make gil readily available and easily obtainable. Have all mobs drop it, and in decent quantities, while having NPC equips available at reasonable costs relative to the amount of gil mobs drop in the nearby areas. For instance, fighting mobs for an hour or so outside of the first starter city will net you all the gil you need to deck out your new character at the local armor and weapon shop, just like previous console Final Fantasy games. With everyone comfortable with the amount of gil they can receive via traditional Final Fantasy methods, people will be better geared and RMT will not have a role in FFXIV.

I personally am of the mind that most, if not all, equips dropped by NMs or from treasure coffers should all be rare/ex, thereby eliminating RMTs desire to camp NMs and coffer spawns at all. By raising the drop rates and lowering respawn timers, it will also discourage RMT from camping these mobs to sell the drops to players.

If gil is easily obtainable by everyone, achievement in FFXIV can be measured more by your progress in quests and missions rather than your purchasable gear.

It seems that RMT and MMOs go hand-in-hand these days, but I would really like to see a strong effort from FFXIV to eliminate this genre standard by putting such a game system in place which will make it economically inefficient for RMT to have a presence in FFXIV.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 3:12pm by Arxeiros
#2 Jun 06 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Default
*
101 posts
No matter what you do with mobs dropping gil and etc. There is can always be inflation. That is one thing you need to worry about. My main idea is to make all NM mob drops BoP like in wow because then you dont have bots hunting NM's and then it also gives people a chance to aquire items they need instead of competing with gil sellers for the claim.
____________________________
"The Greatest Foe Lies Within Ones Self." Parasite Eve
#3 Jun 06 2009 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
**
336 posts
The problem is no matter how you earn gil, they can do it too. And they will do it 24/7 to build up a surplus.

What needs to be done is not have big money things run on the clock and in same spot, this leads to a monopoly.

But other than that, as long as there are lazy players that buy there will be sellers.
#4 Jun 06 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,087 posts
As far as I know there is no way to stop this using the same game mechanics that are now a staple in any MMORPG. As long as there are ways of making something out of nothing(ex. mobs dropping gil, quest rewards...) then inflation will happen and people will be able to farm it to sell it.
#5 Jun 06 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
288 posts
Quote:
The problem is no matter how you earn gil, they can do it too. And they will do it 24/7 to build up a surplus.


This is certainly true. I suppose my idea in essence is to make gil a rather trivial aspect of the game, which I did not articulate in my OP. If no one really cares about gil, either because it is very easily obtainable, or you just don't need loads of it to progress in the game with good gear, lazy gamers will not see the need to buy it in the first place.
____________________________
"Imagine you’re trying to teach your son to play baseball. You teach him the rules, how to throw, how to swing and when you tell him to go for it, he throws the ball into the side of his own head, runs the wrong way and tries to sell a ******* to an undercover cop. Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible."
#6 Jun 06 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Excellent
Repressed Memories
******
20,813 posts
The solution is more in fixing gear demand than money supply. In FFXI if you wanted good gear, heck even bad gear, you basically had to buy it. Many of the best items in the game were able to be sold through the AH.

If gear both does not need to be bought and the best items in the game can no longer be bought, then you strike a strong blow against RMT. They'll still be there, but they can no longer manipulate the economy and cause significant grief. The most they can do is annoy you with whispers.

Basic leveling gear should either drop regularly, be easily craftable by anyone, or easily questable. High end gear should not be able to be traded.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 3:51pm by Allegory
#7 Jun 06 2009 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
9 posts
I think towards the end of FFXI they were doing a good job combating RMT. However making gil easily found and made is not an easy thing. It was sort of easy to find later game but very very hard in the beginning making it virtually impossible to buy anything.

WoW does the same thing.. make money easy to get and inflation goes up and up. I think if they follow FFXI market without the auction house history(easily easily manipulated) then things should be relatively steady. The issue in FFXI was that gathering was too difficult since at low levels when you did actually find stuff you leveled quickly and that was it once in a party of 6 items drops were not very high and you had a 1/6 chance of finding anything. Then all the mining and woodcutting etc was so difficult and tedious no one wanted to do it. Gathering professions should be low level accesable... and fishing for a low level had a high startup but quick profits. Mining you needed to buy picks, go into a relatively unsafe mine and hunt and hunt and hunt for "mining spots"... hardly fun, worthwhile or rewarding. The only worthwhile one was fishing which was once again bot heavy because they noticed that this was the most easily manipulated.

I think the right balance between professions and gathering will keep it to a minimum. NM's aren't so much of an issue now as they are camped much much less due the rare/ex which was a brilliant idea.

They just need to make the valuable quests resources easier to get. for example all the gobbiebag quests are so difficult to do when you reach the level to do it with your first job... and you really need that extra room in your bag. So people charge a small fortune for that stuff, inflation begins. Once you need gobbie items anything you AH you will sell for a lot. There were lots of very important quests like this too the only one off the top of my head that didn't require anything was the subjob quest which was manditory and usually you got the items leveling and the "magicked skull" was easily attained with help from friends and maybe an extra party or healers if needed.


*edit* i agree with alegory too, most of the gear did require you buy it. Most of the bronze cap etc you could find by quest hunting but even those rewards were pitiful and the quest item usually cost more or took more time. The equipment is just too dependant upon the professions and when it wasn't the npc usually charged more for their awful gear than the AH did.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 3:30pm by nickw
#8Squallido, Posted: Jun 06 2009 at 11:32 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) just make two kind of servers, PS3 only and PS3+PC.
#9 Jun 06 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
**
336 posts
I wouldnt want to join a PS3 only server, it would end up being kind of dead.

And yes, I will be playing on PS3
#10 Jun 06 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Default
32 posts
So long as they still maintain a decent amount of crafted gear vs dropped gear, a bind on acquire system may be the way to go to compete against rare NM drops. But ultimately I believe the real way to combat RMT will be to eliminate the high demand for it.

XI had no good way to make money in a relatively time effective way, unless you had started crafting early on, or had a regular group of ppl to BCNM with. The gathering system was completely broken, allowing too many botters, so a more random spawn system would need to be put in place to combat this.

I think giving more casual players a means to make gil at least on a level where they can buy standard crafted items somewhat painlessly will be the most effective way to have less RMT, as the more casual players seem to be the ones to buy gil more frequently, seeing as how most don't want to spend their free time farming endlessly or camping NM, but rather leveling.
#11 Jun 06 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
288 posts
I would think that most people will be playing on PS3, simply because the PC specs are going to have to be very high. I suppose this will depend on whether you value a new graphics card or a PS3 more. I know for a fact that I will not be playing on PC simply because I will be visually disappointed, even though I really can't imagine playing an MMO on a console right now.

I bought my PS3 way back when in anticipation of FFXIII, and now is really the first time I'm actually glad I have one. Up until the E3 announcement, I viewed it as little more than an over-glorified Blu-Ray player.
____________________________
"Imagine you’re trying to teach your son to play baseball. You teach him the rules, how to throw, how to swing and when you tell him to go for it, he throws the ball into the side of his own head, runs the wrong way and tries to sell a ******* to an undercover cop. Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible."
#12 Jun 06 2009 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Before I offer anything else to the discussion, I just want to say that it would be unrealistic for us as players to expect that RMT could ever be fully eliminated from any MMO. While I obviously don't think that would be an excuse for an MMO developer to not be aggressive in dealing with the issue, I do believe that my play experience is enhanced if I don't carry a mindset that causes me to have an aneurysm at the first sign of RMT activity.

Having said that, based on my experience there are three areas in which RMT activity has a negative impact on legitimate players:

1) In-game advertising of RMT/powerleveling services.
2) Being forced to compete with RMT characters for access to resources and/or content.
3) Extreme price fluctuations on sought after items in the game due to RMT activity.

No MMO developer can ever hope to fully eliminate in-game advertising without creating an atmosphere that is inhospitable to new players. They can, however, restrict access to certain methods or channels of communication to limit the scope of RMT advertising. Making it so that a character on a new account can't send whispers to players outside of a certain range, or can't use wide-area chat channels until they've reached a certain level or been active with that character for a certain amount of time helps, as long as those restrictions aren't so vast and all-encompassing that a new player is so restricted that they can't talk to anyone.

Also, having a very fast and easy way to report in-game RMT advertising is very helpful. WoW has a system in place where you can right click the name of a player in a chat channel and a little menu box pops up next to your mouse cursor. One of the options on that menu is "Report Spam". Clicking on it sends a notification to an automated system and puts the reported character on a temporary ignore list of the character who made the report. If enough players report the spam, the automated system flags the situation for review by a GM and the offending character is usually banned very, very quickly. The way the system is set up, it's impossible for a group of vindictive players to get an innocent player banned because a real person reviews the situation to make sure there has been an offense before any action is taken.

There are a lot of ways to severely limit the opportunity for RMT to monopolize areas/resources/mobs. Most of it revolves around the way the game is tuned. If the game is tuned to create fierce competition for mobs with loot that can be traded (aka sold) and/or if resources in the game (ie. mining nodes) are so sparse that they can be easily monopolized or so predictable that they can easily be botted, there's an issue. Love it or hated, Blizzard uses software that watches client system memory for indications of botting software (similar to a virus scan ...it watches for signs that known botting programs are running so no, it's not going to send Blizzard a report detailing how much **** or pirated software you have on your PC). Also, the content is designed in such a way that there's enough for everyone, with the majority of gear that players value being found in instanced content where your group is the only group there so you don't have to compete with RMT for the claim. Love instance content or hate it, it's effective in mitigating the impact of RMT on legitimate players.

A robust "behind-the-scenes" transaction/activity logging and reporting system is also an asset in combating RMT. Obviously, if you've got a character on an account that never leaves town, never really talks to anyone and yet receives a constant stream of gold from characters on other accounts and sends out a constant stream of gold to characters on yet other accounts, there's an issue. If you've got a character that does nothing but farm for hours upon hours upon hours and sends the resulting currency to a character on another account, good chance there's an issue. Stuff like that. The main thing...and I think the thing that caught SE with their pants down back at the beginning of the RMT debacle...is that those systems be developed and implemented as part of the initial development process.

I don't blame SE for suddenly finding themselves with a game being grossly disrupted by RMT for a fairly significant period of time, and I have absolute faith that their experience with FFXI has taught them many valuable lessons about how to combat it from day one of FFXIV's lifespan.
#13 Jun 06 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
**
621 posts
the only way to avoid RMT altogether is to remove the ability of players to trade items to one another, either directly or tru AH.
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#14 Jun 06 2009 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
**
621 posts
however, that being said, SE could enforce some rules which would discourage RMT, like only allowing each character to trade gil/items to another player, say 3 times a day. that way, the gilsellers wouldn't be able to make a good living of it and they would probably choose another game where it is easier to make money. i think it would be a small price to play for the regular player, even though it might be an annoyance to some people, but it would probably crush the gilsellers.

what do you think of my idea?
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#15 Jun 06 2009 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
**
255 posts
I think that's just the DRM for games that don't want to be copies, they're an issue for regular players.

me playing ffxi in a good engame LS and doing stuffs for money could easily do 20-30 trades daily, and i bet an hnmls leader for example would need to do even more.
#16 Jun 06 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
insanekangaroo wrote:
however, that being said, SE could enforce some rules which would discourage RMT, like only allowing each character to trade gil/items to another player, say 3 times a day. that way, the gilsellers wouldn't be able to make a good living of it and they would probably choose another game where it is easier to make money. i think it would be a small price to play for the regular player, even though it might be an annoyance to some people, but it would probably crush the gilsellers.

what do you think of my idea?


Honestly? Terrible. You're in a group with six people and decide to be a good sport and give out some free buff food. Problem is, not only can you only give the food to three of the people in the group, you're screwed for the rest of the day if you want to do any more trading.

You can't place harsh restrictions on legitimate players as a means of combating RMT or the developers are likely to find themselves with an MMO where the RMT outnumber the legit players because nobody wants to play such a screwed up game.
#17 Jun 06 2009 at 12:46 PM Rating: Excellent
Squallido wrote:
just make two kind of servers, PS3 only and PS3+PC.

With a PS3 server only option we wouldn't have any garbage, cheaters or gillsellers, though i rather FFXIV having a great anti rmt system.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 3:32pm by Squallido


They would still follow. It might cost them more in the start compared to the PC's they might already own but they will still follow.

RMT are like weeds. No matter how much weed killer you spray down there's always those few weeds that just refuse to die. They show up in every online game, no matter how big or how small.

Look at WoW. When I played gold was pretty easy to get, I'd made 2k by the time my pally hit 66 and that was from farming any of the mines that I happen to run past, not dedicated farming. Every day I'd see at least a couple shouts in town from rmt using trial accounts. Some people have more money than they know what to do with, so for them buying the money to get the items they want (or just buying the item itself in some cases) is a lot easier than farming for hours.

When a game first comes out usually the fact that a company has to buy a new copy when they get banned is one of the better methods. As soon as they come out with trial accounts thats when RMT really start to shine as they can just get new accounts without costing them a dime.
____________________________
[ffxisig]46265[/ffxisig]
List of 75's in order of accomplishment
BST, BLM, WHM, SMN, BLU, RDM, PLD, THF, DRG, BRD, MNK, NIN
#18 Jun 06 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
**
621 posts
Quote:
Honestly? Terrible. You're in a group with six people and decide to be a good sport and give out some free buff food. Problem is, not only can you only give the food to three of the people in the group, you're screwed for the rest of the day if you want to do any more trading.

You can't place harsh restrictions on legitimate players as a means of combating RMT or the developers are likely to find themselves with an MMO where the RMT outnumber the legit players because nobody wants to play such a screwed up game.


how many times a day would you say a gil seller trades gil to a gilbuyer?

do you not agree that limiting the number of trades/day/character would kill the gilsellers ability to make money?

the number need not necessarly be 3, it could be 10 times/day. the important thing is that it should remove the money making opportunity for gilsellers.
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#19 Jun 06 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
**
621 posts
if you wanna kill a disease you should attack at the points where the behavior of the normal players and the gilsellers ("disease") differs. that way you minimize the annoyance for regular players while killing of the gilsellers.
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#20 Jun 06 2009 at 12:53 PM Rating: Default
**
572 posts
Also take into consideration, that crafting items that are extremely good and viable endgame gear would need to be removed from the game making master craftsman useless. WoW has solved this simply by never offer a crafted item that’s better then a drop you can get from high end instance. So you need to either have it like FFXI, that is you are a master craftsman you can make money from your crafting, but this will encourage RTM, or do it like WoW so that you can never offer an item that’s better than a high end instance, meaning there will be very little demand for it, and ultimatlity you won’t make any money from it. Also we have the +1 system in FFXI that WoW dont have, should that be removed as well ?

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 4:55pm by Maldavian
#21 Jun 06 2009 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
insanekangaroo wrote:
Quote:
Honestly? Terrible. You're in a group with six people and decide to be a good sport and give out some free buff food. Problem is, not only can you only give the food to three of the people in the group, you're screwed for the rest of the day if you want to do any more trading.

You can't place harsh restrictions on legitimate players as a means of combating RMT or the developers are likely to find themselves with an MMO where the RMT outnumber the legit players because nobody wants to play such a screwed up game.


how many times a day would you say a gil seller trades gil to a gilbuyer?

do you not agree that limiting the number of trades/day/character would kill the gilsellers ability to make money?

the number need not necessarly be 3, it could be 10 times/day. the important thing is that it should remove the money making opportunity for gilsellers.


No, it wouldn't. On a server with a total of 20,000 active accounts, if 10% of them are buying curreency every single month (which is a ludicrous figure), that's an average of 66-67 people buying currency every day. Depending on how many characters you can make/account (even if you have to pay for a content ID for each one ala FFXI), a single RMT account could service that demand quite handily while staying well below an imposed daily trade limit. I can tell you straight up that on any given server in any given MMO, there is more than one RMT company operating and most of them are operating from more than one account. You could put a 1 trade/character/day restriction on every account and RMT would still be able to offer prompt delivery to all of their buyers.

Again, you can't impose harsh restrictions on your legitimate players to combat RMT.
#22 Jun 06 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
Repressed Memories
******
20,813 posts
insanekangaroo wrote:
do you not agree that limiting the number of trades/day/character would kill the gilsellers ability to make money?

the number need not necessarly be 3, it could be 10 times/day. the important thing is that it should remove the money making opportunity for gilsellers.

It would hurt RMT and players. You realize if they didn't allow trading at all then there could be no gil sellers right? So why don't we just do that? BEcause it would make the game far less fun for legitimate players.

Trying to force RMT out is a bad idea. Any action will simply annoy legitimate players. The optimal solution is to take an indirect approach. Don't give the players any reason to want RMT services. The reason people bought gold was because you need a lot of gil to get good equipment and gil was hard to get. If you eliminate the need for massive amounts of gil to get good equipment then you eliminate the demand for gil. People can still buy all the gil they want, but why would they want to?
#23 Jun 06 2009 at 1:02 PM Rating: Default
**
572 posts
Allegory wrote:
insanekangaroo wrote:
do you not agree that limiting the number of trades/day/character would kill the gilsellers ability to make money?

the number need not necessarly be 3, it could be 10 times/day. the important thing is that it should remove the money making opportunity for gilsellers.

It would hurt RMT and players. You realize if they didn't allow trading at all then there could be no gil sellers right? So why don't we just do that? BEcause it would make the game far less fun for legitimate players.

Trying to force RMT out is a bad idea. Any action will simply annoy legitimate players. The optimal solution is to take an indirect approach. Don't give the players any reason to want RMT services. The reason people bought gold was because you need a lot of gil to get good equipment and gil was hard to get. If you eliminate the need for massive amounts of gil to get good equipment then you eliminate the demand for gil. People can still buy all the gil they want, but why would they want to?


Well, true but then again that would destroy the point of being a master craftsman in FFXI and try to make money from it wouldn’t it? Since you can make many items that are high end also you have the +1 gear.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 5:04pm by Maldavian
#24 Jun 06 2009 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
**
621 posts
Quote:
No, it wouldn't. On a server with a total of 20,000 active accounts, if 10% of them are buying curreency every single month (which is a ludicrous figure), that's an average of 66-67 people buying currency every day. Depending on how many characters you can make/account (even if you have to pay for a content ID for each one ala FFXI), a single RMT account could service that demand quite handily while staying well below an imposed daily trade limit. I can tell you straight up that on any given server in any given MMO, there is more than one RMT company operating and most of them are operating from more than one account. You could put a 1 trade/character/day restriction on every account and RMT would still be able to offer prompt delivery to all of their buyers.

Again, you can't impose harsh restrictions on your legitimate players to combat RMT.



I think you are very quick to dismiss my idea. It must be possible someway to impose some kind of limitation of trades between players which would not be a big annoyance for regular players, while hampering RMT trades from gilsellers...
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#25 Jun 06 2009 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
**
621 posts
Quote:
The optimal solution is to take an indirect approach. Don't give the players any reason to want RMT services. The reason people bought gold was because you need a lot of gil to get good equipment and gil was hard to get. If you eliminate the need for massive amounts of gil to get good equipment then you eliminate the demand for gil. People can still buy all the gil they want, but why would they want to?


the only way to do that is to give rare/ex. status to all items which can not be bought from npcs and in someway have a larger than average value for players.
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#26 Jun 06 2009 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Maldavian wrote:

Well, true but then again that would destroy the point of being a master craftsman in FFXI and try to make money from it wouldn’t it? Since you can make many items that are high end also you have the +1 gear.


There's no foundation for your argument based on what you just posted. Care to elaborate?
#27 Jun 06 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
insanekangaroo wrote:
Quote:
The optimal solution is to take an indirect approach. Don't give the players any reason to want RMT services. The reason people bought gold was because you need a lot of gil to get good equipment and gil was hard to get. If you eliminate the need for massive amounts of gil to get good equipment then you eliminate the demand for gil. People can still buy all the gil they want, but why would they want to?


the only way to do that is to give rare/ex. status to all items which can not be bought from npcs and in someway have a larger than average value for players.


Nope. Not at all. You reduce the margin between "the best" and the next best option and you increase the number of options that fall between the categories of "useless crap" and "absolute best". Demand for "the best" will always be high, which means that if supply for "the best" is low, there will always be good income to be had if you provide "the best". If, however, players who would enjoy having "the best" can still progress their character to a reasonable level without having "the best", they're less likely to go outside the restrictions of the terms of service in order to get "the best". They'll go without "the best" because they haven't got the legitimate resources to get "the best" because their other options are still pretty decent.
#28 Jun 06 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
insanekangaroo wrote:
I think you are very quick to dismiss my idea. It must be possible someway to impose some kind of limitation of trades between players which would not be a big annoyance for regular players, while hampering RMT trades from gilsellers...


Restricted trade = annoyance for regular players. There's no way around it.
#29 Jun 06 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
**
621 posts
Quote:
They'll go without "the best" because they haven't got the legitimate resources to get "the best" because their other options are still pretty decent.


that will be the same as FF11 then.

as long as some equip1 is better than some other equip2, people will want equip1, and the price for equip1 will skyrocket. the fewer equip1s on the market the higher the price will be. a sky high price will make some (weak-minded) players buy gil. just look at the regular and +1s in FF11. the price for the +1s are typically many times higher, despite there only being a very small difference over the regular versions.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 11:25pm by insanekangaroo
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#30 Jun 06 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
**
621 posts
Quote:
Restricted trade = annoyance for regular players. There's no way around it.


you can't avoid annoyance. RMT is an annoyance as well. making all good gear rare/ex is also an annoyance.

you have to design the system to minimize annoyance for regular players, while targeting the gilsellers way of life.
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#31 Jun 06 2009 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
insanekangaroo wrote:
Quote:
They'll go without "the best" because they haven't got the legitimate resources to get "the best" because their other options are still pretty decent.


that will be the same as FF11 then.

as long as some equip1 is better than some other equip2, people will want equip1, and the price for equip1 will skyrocket. the fewer equip1s on the market the higher the price will be. a sky high price will make some (weak-minded) players buy gil. just look at the regular and +1s in FF11. the price for the +1s are typically many times higher, despite there only being a very small difference over the regular versions.


Ya, but when itemization is so restricted that people feel like their only option to have a solid character is "equip1", the system is broken. Again, more options between "barely worth equipping" and "zomfg uber" makes for a larger component of happy players even if they can't have "the best".
#32 Jun 06 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Default
**
572 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:

Well, true but then again that would destroy the point of being a master craftsman in FFXI and try to make money from it wouldn’t it? Since you can make many items that are high end also you have the +1 gear.


There's no foundation for your argument based on what you just posted. Care to elaborate?



"Don't give the players any reason to want RMT services. The reason people bought gold was because you need a lot of gil to get good equipment and gil was hard to get. If you eliminate the need for massive amounts of gil to get good equipment then you eliminate the demand for gil. People can still buy all the gil they want, but why would they want to?"

If you read that then you will know why I wrote what I wrote.
#33 Jun 06 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
insanekangaroo wrote:
Quote:
Restricted trade = annoyance for regular players. There's no way around it.


you can't avoid annoyance. RMT is an annoyance as well. making all good gear rare/ex is also an annoyance.


Ya, but let the RMT be the source of the annoyance, not the developers. If there are options to combat RMT that don't impose a heavy annoyance on the players, those are the ideal options. Developer-imposed restrictions that annoy the player base are stupid when other options are available. Trade restrictions are a developer-imposed annoyance. There are other options available to combat RMT. Ergo, trade restrictions are stupid.


Edited, Jun 6th 2009 2:40pm by AureliusSir
#34 Jun 06 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:

Well, true but then again that would destroy the point of being a master craftsman in FFXI and try to make money from it wouldn’t it? Since you can make many items that are high end also you have the +1 gear.


There's no foundation for your argument based on what you just posted. Care to elaborate?



"Don't give the players any reason to want RMT services. The reason people bought gold was because you need a lot of gil to get good equipment and gil was hard to get. If you eliminate the need for massive amounts of gil to get good equipment then you eliminate the demand for gil. People can still buy all the gil they want, but why would they want to?"

If you read that then you will know why I wrote what I wrote.


Ya, but you still seem to struggle with the idea that a player should have access to "good" equipment without having to have the best.
#35 Jun 06 2009 at 1:33 PM Rating: Default
**
621 posts
Quote:
Ya, but when itemization is so restricted that people feel like their only option to have a solid character is "equip1", the system is broken. Again, more options between "barely worth equipping" and "zomfg uber" makes for a larger component of happy players even if they can't have "the best".



I do not agree. you cannot cheat the rules of supply and demand without imposing some kinds of limitations/regulations on the market. read some texts on economics and we can continue our discussion.
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#36 Jun 06 2009 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
insanekangaroo wrote:
Quote:
Ya, but when itemization is so restricted that people feel like their only option to have a solid character is "equip1", the system is broken. Again, more options between "barely worth equipping" and "zomfg uber" makes for a larger component of happy players even if they can't have "the best".



I do not agree. you cannot cheat the rules of supply and demand without imposing some kinds of limitations/regulations on the market. read some texts on economics and we can continue our discussion.


Who is talking about cheating the rules of supply and demand? You're talking about putting restrictions on the number of trades a legitimate character can make as a means of combating RMT.
#37 Jun 06 2009 at 1:39 PM Rating: Default
**
572 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:

Well, true but then again that would destroy the point of being a master craftsman in FFXI and try to make money from it wouldn’t it? Since you can make many items that are high end also you have the +1 gear.


There's no foundation for your argument based on what you just posted. Care to elaborate?



"Don't give the players any reason to want RMT services. The reason people bought gold was because you need a lot of gil to get good equipment and gil was hard to get. If you eliminate the need for massive amounts of gil to get good equipment then you eliminate the demand for gil. People can still buy all the gil they want, but why would they want to?"

If you read that then you will know why I wrote what I wrote.


Ya, but you still seem to struggle with the idea that a player should have access to "good" equipment without having to have the best.


No, I didn’t say that, what I said was that you need to sacrifice master crafting as it is now in order to remove the RTM issue or severely cripple it since the need for gil will disappear, also to combat it even further you need to make all end game items Rare/Ex or as you call it in WoW BoP. I don’t really know what path FF14 will take we just need to wait and see.


Edited, Jun 6th 2009 5:41pm by Maldavian
#38 Jun 06 2009 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
*
189 posts
The fact that an RMT needs a PS3 or high end PC will be some deterrence.

I wonder if the game will get a China release, they gotta, it would be dumb to not do so otherwise. Warcraft can only claim to be no.1 worldwide because it's no.1 in China
#39 Jun 06 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Maldavian wrote:
No, I didn’t say that, what I said was that you need to sacrifice master crafting as it is now in order to remove the RTM issue or severely cripple it since the need for gil will disappear, also to combat it even further you need to make all end game items Rare/Ex or as you call it in WoW BoP. I don’t really know what path FF14 will take we just need to wait and see.


No, you don't have to remove master crafting. You just make it so that players have more options.
#40 Jun 06 2009 at 1:43 PM Rating: Default
**
572 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
No, I didn’t say that, what I said was that you need to sacrifice master crafting as it is now in order to remove the RTM issue or severely cripple it since the need for gil will disappear, also to combat it even further you need to make all end game items Rare/Ex or as you call it in WoW BoP. I don’t really know what path FF14 will take we just need to wait and see.


No, you don't have to remove master crafting. You just make it so that players have more options.


What kind of option? Elaborate please.
#41 Jun 06 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Maldavian wrote:
What kind of option? Elaborate please.


I've already explained what kind of option. More diversity between "useless crap" and "the best". It's not a difficult concept to understand.
#42 Jun 06 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
**
621 posts
Quote:
Who is talking about cheating the rules of supply and demand? You're talking about putting restrictions on the number of trades a legitimate character can make as a means of combating RMT.


you are. you think that by making gil available in big amounts will solve the problems of inflations in the prices of rare items. you are wrong.

putting restrictions (in some way) on all players (legitimate and gilsellers) is the only way of combating RMT in game. WOW has tried to do this by making alot of "better than common" items rare/ex (binds to player), which totally prevents trading of a large number of items. another way would be, as I suggested, to limit the number pf player-player trades per day.
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#43 Jun 06 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,813 posts
Maldavian wrote:
Well, true but then again that would destroy the point of being a master craftsman in FFXI and try to make money from it wouldn’t it? Since you can make many items that are high end also you have the +1 gear.

Well there are ways to work around that. I was giving more of a general answer. Some of the possible solutions I see are:

1. Leaving it as is. There is no rule that you have to make money as a crafter. Crafting high end items could provide a personal benefit, where you alone are able to weild the awesome item you make. This is true of a few items in WoW's crafting system.

2. Crafting being the exception. The majority of high end gear is something that cannot be traded, except for crafted items. However, to combat RMT there would still have to be a plehtora of similar quality quest/dropped gear or the crafted armor would be BoE.

3. Some sort of combination of the two above.

I think crafting is a rather complicated issue in MMORPGs and that none have really done it well so far. IT's a topic that merits its own thread.
#44 Jun 06 2009 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
**
621 posts
Quote:
I've already explained what kind of option. More diversity between "useless crap" and "the best". It's not a difficult concept to understand.


the "concept" doesn't make any sense at all.
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#45 Jun 06 2009 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
Silent But Deadly
*****
19,999 posts
It's actually quite simple.

Ban China.
____________________________
SUPER BANNED FOR FAILING TO POST 20K IN A TIMELY MANNER
#46 Jun 06 2009 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,218 posts
As long as one person can do work for another person, and another person has more disposable income than disposable time, then RMT will exist.

RMT is not really the problem so much as the behavior that RMT resorts to in order to be as profitable as possible.

The best way to combat the effects of RMT are to vigilantly track the economy. Are there exploits like the rusty caps exploit? Identify them quickly and shut them down. Are RMT dominating fixed spawns? make spawns more random, or put them into instances. Provide crafing mats and the best gear via instances and BCNM type mobs.

RMT made the game miserable by exploiting bad game mechanics. S-E has a pretty good idea of what types of mechanics get exploited, and they just need to avoid rewarding those types of exploits AND REMAIN VIGILANT CONCERNING FUTURE EXPLOITS.
#47 Jun 06 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
*
73 posts
Quote:

Restricted trade = annoyance for regular players. There's no way around it.


Quote:

you can't avoid annoyance. RMT is an annoyance as well. making all good gear rare/ex is also an annoyance.

you have to design the system to minimize annoyance for regular players, while targeting the gilsellers way of life.


Ok... I'm going to be very frank on this. Your Idea for a trade restriction is VERY bad. For one. RMT will always ALWAYS have more than one account or character. Two restricting how many times a legit player can trade will destroy the economy far worse than any RMT could. Three, its just plain stupid to think that such a restriction would fix anything, because most players would just quit if such a massive restriction is placed upon them.

The best way I can see in combating against RMT would be IP bans OR rooting out their websites and ways of transactions. If you crush sites that have the transactions running through them and keep up on them you reduce RMT. In theory at least.
#48 Jun 06 2009 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
*
210 posts
I have an idea! Let's have a goblin bountyhunter EVERYWHERE! Because that was such a great idea originally and totally made the game better! :D

/sarcasm
____________________________
R.I.P Teraud, Dragoon main on Seraph (2004-2007)
R.I.P. Atli, Blue Mage main on Seraph (2007-2008)
R.I.P. Silje, Beastmaster main on Odin (2008-2008)
R.I.P. My Final Fantasy XI Account forevahz

Back on ZAM for FFXIV!
#49 Jun 06 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
insanekangaroo wrote:
Quote:
I've already explained what kind of option. More diversity between "useless crap" and "the best". It's not a difficult concept to understand.


the "concept" doesn't make any sense at all.


It absolutely does, but it requires that you be able to think at a certain level to grasp it.

Let's say the game is designed to include a grand total of 20 items for a particular slot from mid-level to level cap that I am able to equip on my character, and the relative value to my character breaks down like this:

17 of those items offer increases to attributes that are of no significant benefit to my character (trivial elemental resistances or increases to attributes that make no significant contribution to my performance).
1 of those items offers a trivial (+1/+2) increase to one stat that is directly related to my performance.
1 of those items offers a trivial (+1/+2) increase to two stats that are directly related to my performance.
1 of those items offers a substantial (+5-+10 or more) increase to one or more stats directly related to my performance.

That's sh*tty itemization. The first 19 options are unappealing. You'll use them as a stop-gap measure but if you left that gear slot empty you wouldn't even really notice a difference unless you had the #1 best item on the list.

FFXI did have some pieces where, for example, the difference between the NQ version and the +1 were insubstantial such that you could go with either option and it wouldn't make or break you. It also had way too many items where the discrepancy between the #1 option and the runner up was too great. As a result, the #1 option was the status quo. If you didn't have it, the difference in performance meant that you'd all too often be passed over for groups. Players felt enormous pressure to have the best of the best for altogether too many reasons. This created a forced demand for the items, not a natural one, which drove up the price even more and provided unfortunate incentive for players to buy gil. Sadly, what the gil buyers never did quite fully realize was that in solving their "short term" problems, they were just creating greater problems for themselves (and the rest of the community) down the line.

Itemize for diversity in a way that rewards escalating levels of success without creating an environment where the best becomes a necessity and fewer people will feel compelled to behave outside the terms of service if they want to be able to enjoy the game.

Edited, Jun 6th 2009 5:09pm by AureliusSir
#50 Jun 06 2009 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,089 posts
SE can start by banning credit card numbers and names associated w/ credit card numbers. They don't do this now. They ban an account and the RMT go buy a new FFXI game.

Block IPs from China? I know not all of the RMT come from China but it's a significant part of it.
#51 Jun 06 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
*****
12,709 posts
mpmaley wrote:
SE can start by banning credit card numbers and names associated w/ credit card numbers. They don't do this now. They ban an account and the RMT go buy a new FFXI game.

Block IPs from China? I know not all of the RMT come from China but it's a significant part of it.


Some of the larger companies are US based, should they start blocking US IPs as well? It's no secret China has the most RMT activity, but a lot of the larger companies are actually based in the US unless that's changed the past few years. So SE can do all they can, as long as it's a MMO, RMT will be a problem, FFXI actually isn't hit that hard with RMT these days compared to many others. The only big problem is the /tell situation now.

____________________________

« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 16 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (16)