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Blink tanks (and other tanks too)Follow

#1 Jun 07 2009 at 1:24 AM Rating: Decent
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For those that remember Utsusemi tanking was one of FFXIs happy accidents, an unintended use of the spell that SE didn't account for. Its been a long time since I played but as far as I know SE never really supported blink tanking. I'd love to see blink tanks make a return in FFXIV, maybe not in the form of ninja spells but in some form. I would also love to see new tanking innovations tried out and to not have the classic sword+board types seem so second rate (PLD <3).
#2 Jun 07 2009 at 2:43 AM Rating: Default
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As a tank myself in FFXI using a PLD I tend to agree I want to see a blink tank... HOWEVER it should be noted that I do not agree with a PLD type class having to sub a NIN class type. I think PLD needs to be a tanking class that if they do keep sub job ability make it so you tank with out say a Warrior for provoke. because it seems to me you are a TANK so ******* things off is the main thing.

I want to see an actual blink tank that can do more than just use shadows.. the ele wheel was nice to keep hate when it came to Ni but the ones before 37 really needed help.. I would love to see a blinker that is not only made to tank but I want to see all the jobs have more in the way of ability that have job relevance. this way if they keep sub jobs we will actually have more flexibility than before....

I may sound like a noob but I do remember the days when a galka RDM/WAR was a party favorite... they rarely tanked but it was still acceptable.. I think the same should be for tank classes.. They should be tanks first then the sub job augment the job to degrees, even if it's not where the job may excel the best. in fact that's what i think a sub should do... pick up on the weaknesses the job may already have.

This way PLD won't need things like WAR to just simply provoke and NIN won't need war at all if it does become an actual tank....

I dunno about you but It would be cool to see a NIN who could use a THF sub and still tank... think about it. it would fit better with the actual class stats.

anyway thats just my two cents

*note* I forgot to say this before, but I think it would also help if perhaps it was more than just one sub.. think about it, complex I know but think of like someone who had a main job a sub job and then a quoter job for example.. 75/37/18 I think that could help as well as long as they were careful with ability placement..

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 6:50am by Knoto
#3 Jun 07 2009 at 3:10 AM Rating: Default
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Well I reckon giving more classes abilities like provoke would allow a wider variety of tank job combinations. Limiting it to warrior meant it needed to be subbed. Give it to at least 2 more jobs and presto, you now have the ability to tank with different options.
#4 Jun 07 2009 at 3:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Very true. Also note the fact Every job already has the ability to pull hate to extrema degrees.. In some cases it's a tanks worst nightmare. (benediction anyone)people try to beat the **** outta things quickly and it ends up being a game of Spin the MOB. *round and round it goes where it stops nobody kno---it just killed the MNK who got a little over zealous* and yes that was a direct call out to my fav leveling buddy...

anyway... i think we need the things like skill chains again. It took TEAM work to do it and i want to see that dynamic again... I want to see BALANCE! ok, i know i know the whole BLM thing got outta hand at one point. easy fix.. give us MORE ways to burst. IN FACT instead of making a BLM burst use a job calss identical to a certain element of the skill chain.. ex: DRK=dark magic.. see not hard. it'll just make it better. that way every class will be needed depending on burst needs.
#5 Jun 07 2009 at 3:40 AM Rating: Decent
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If you could use a WS of a certain element like magic can, burst a WS onto a SC, which in turn starts another sc, each getting stronger and ends in a MB. Would be amazing and amazingly hard to pull off but pretty good to watch.
#6 Jun 07 2009 at 3:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes hard to pull off meaning people would actually need to pay attention to whats going on and not level/read or my favorite things some do/, level/do homework, level/feed the baby (YES YOU READ CORRECTLY) or level/ and play another mmo...

if you need to concentrate it'll be fun. and it'll add more difficulty to the game to a degree... and if you need to work together it'll weed out the noobs quickly early on.
#7 Jun 07 2009 at 3:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually people will just not bother and just use a ws whenever they can and go "I can does moar dmg than you"

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 11:58am by Feyted
#8 Jun 07 2009 at 3:59 AM Rating: Decent
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When I had returned from my first hiatus from FFXI, I was shocked when I got into a party and saw that no one spoke about skillchains. I thought it might have just been that particular party, but finally realized afterwards that it seemed to have been abandoned for the most part. I remember way at the beginnings of the game, I had no clue whatsoever how that stuff worked and when I finally got the hang of it, it definitely made partying more interesting.
#9 Jun 07 2009 at 4:04 AM Rating: Decent
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the i can do more dammage thing is what needs to stop.. 9 times outta ten we just get killed for the stupidity.. FFXI is NOT WoW and DPS is not just DPS there are other factors. Skill Chains helped maintain balance. we do need them it's just most people would rather kick the crap out of things instead of team work..

Why do you thinks statics worked so well. People worked together, as friends, or whatever and they knew how to coexist. That element needs to have a defined place in a party setting where it is a MUST. I feel if they work it right skill chins could be that defined spot.. remember SE has an MMO under it's belt now. they will make a few ***** ups but now from FFXI they know what to expect and hopefully make better choices.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 8:05am by Knoto
#10 Jun 07 2009 at 4:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Well I wanna steer this topic back on course just a little by saying, keep blink tanks or create more. Would mean people have to watch what is happening and hopefully know that should the blink tanks lose it from a crit or something, they need to be backed up. People can't just ws all day long and not watch what others are doing.
#11 Jun 07 2009 at 4:41 AM Rating: Decent
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i remember back in the day (my origional char was a DRK) being in a trio DRK tanking party with round robin tanking.. it was fun, if not a little freakish.. and best of it all is were were in the Tree at the time. (stupid spiders) anyway it was 10 sec voke intervals.. and a whm rdm and a brd.. it was fun and it just went to prove in a normal exp party any job can tank, sure some are far more effective, but with the right know how any class can do it..

I would like to see a dynamic of tanking take a careful blanace. as far as blinking goes, I would be interested to see an ability much like a thf SATA come back into balance with it, however perhaps with duo blinks you wouldn't need the thf because as a blink tank you could pass off the hate to your tanking buddy if you had one. or shed it completely as we see with drg.

in a team dynamic it would have some use at least.
#12 Jun 07 2009 at 4:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Best makeshift tank though was Samurai. Whenever the tank lost hate, I remember having to quickly go Seigan > Third Eye > Provoke. Didn't last long but helped out some.
#13 Jun 07 2009 at 5:02 AM Rating: Decent
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very true, SAM had a noteworthy appreciably being able to tank well in a moments notice. I hope if they bring SAM back they keep the basic outline. they made it very well as opposed to other jobs that needed constant gimping and then could still destroy all of vana in a moments notice.

On the topic of alternate tanking styles, I would love to see a possibility that if a blink tank is actually made to blink tank we also see other variants as well, for example, if they blink tank they stay low on the damage chart. WAR/NIN duo's are very powerful and I would not want to see such an aggressive use of attack power in a tank. However in saying this, perhaps over all AOE party buffs to make the team stronger as a whole would be better than the attack strength coming from the blink themselves.
#14 Jun 07 2009 at 5:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I wonder if they would consider adding in an evasion tank. Abilities like increase to dodge/evasion/parry/block. Possibility?

Tanks should not be putting out big damage numbers, that's for DD. Jobs should be able to vary how they perform though. As in, if there is a job that can blink tank, they can forgo the higher levels of blinking for more damage output and use the shadows/blinks for safety.
#15 Jun 07 2009 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I was a nin tank, so I would like to see this come back. On the other hand, making them a proper DD (read: endgame) would be ok as well. Loved my haste set up! That being said, I do want their to be ballance among tanks. If they make more than one tank, the emphesis should be on style on tanking not effectiveness. In other words, stop the "no plds in xp parties" or "nin is too weak to tank sea gods" crap. I have this sinking feeling though that SE will make it so that nins cant tank though. They will reduce shadows to being helpful , but not tank worthy or some BS like that. We shall see.

As for other tanks, I have an idea about an existing job, and an idea for a new tank job. Firstly, just tweak blu a little. More def, or def armor, and a few other things. I remember the first time I was in a merit party with a good blu. That dude was just destroying the mobs, but hate management wasn't too bad. The reason is because he was headbutt stunning the crap out of the mobs. So why not just make it where when tweaked right, or the right gear build blu can be a "stun" tank. Sorta like nin/drk but in its own right. Of course this would require that SE not do something *** like make every NM immune to stun (read: Sea Gods).

My new tank job needs to be fleshed out more, but I was thinking of a sort of Astral Knight. The job would have good def, but not as good as pld. It would have astral abilities. These astral abilities would use spirit magic to heal and attack the enemy from the astral plane. However, the main thing would be its dmg mitigation. It would call forth a portal into the astral plane in front of itself so that incoming dmg would be sucked into oblivion. Anyways, thats along the lines of what I was thinking. However, it would need some limitataions so it wouldn't completely outclass other tanks. Like maybe some limitations through recast timers on the portal castings. Maybe something that focuses more on magic dmg mitigation, but the Astral Knight would have to rely on heals, armor, and defense for physical dmg? OK so what do you think? Comments, suggestions, snide remarks?
#16 Jun 07 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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75BRD/NIN is win.

Mazurka = all your hate are belong to me.

Double EVA songs and carnage elegy make it that more hilariously fun.
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#17 Jun 07 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Never got a chance to try that as a tank set up, nor nin/brd. The reason is by the time I was doing endgame, they nerfed mazurka so it couldn't be used that way. In fact I was entering an endgame LS and was trying to decide on nin/brd or nin/drk. Well I got brd to lvl 17 then SE decided for me....... lol. waaah waaaah waaaaaaah.
#18 Jun 07 2009 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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Instead of leveling up with experience points, weapons will play a key role in how a character grows and develops. When the interviewer asks if series mainstays like Warrior or Paladin will appear, the developers simply hint that nothing will be exactly the same as we know it.
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So what is going to drive people to buy Final Fantasy XIV? The developers claim that Final Fantasy XIV is all about "growth." They laugh as they admit that "growth" in Final Fantasy XI would often amount to an endless cycle of shoot-pull-kill, shoot-pull-kill. The new MMO will focus on the variety and accessibility of methods to grow one's character.

Talking with some other people last week, we got the impression the Tanaka/Komoto interview had hints of a "classless" system, like FFII.

In any case, I'd like to see S&S "drain tanking" be a feasible method, ala L2's "Shillien Knight" class.
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#19 Jun 07 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Never got a chance to try that as a tank set up, nor nin/brd. The reason is by the time I was doing endgame, they nerfed mazurka so it couldn't be used that way. In fact I was entering an endgame LS and was trying to decide on nin/brd or nin/drk. Well I got brd to lvl 17 then SE decided for me....... lol. waaah waaaah waaaaaaah.



Did they nerf the hate gained by mazurka? those fiends. One of my most memorable ffxi experiences is making a PLD mad at me in a skill up party. Apparently he was trying to level his shield skill.
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#20 Jun 07 2009 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Yea bro, afraid so. I don't know that mazurka gives no hate now, but I do know it gives much much less. I kinda understood why though, because brd wasn't meant to be used that way, nor mazurka for that matter. On the other hand, nin wasn't meant to be a tank, but they didn't nerf it into ineffectiveness?
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#21 Jun 07 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry I couldn't stand Utsusemi. If they bring it back it needs to be in a way that the class can never and will never main tank. Avoidance tank fine and dandy but guaranteed misses to single target magic and melee hits just doesn't fly for me after playing other games. I've always preferred the idea blood tanking. On the other hand it could be good as a cooldown ability on a long cooldown so it can't be used constantly but would still be a good emergency button. For instance, if it were just now introduced into FFXI a good measure would be a 3-5 minute cooldown. This is my opinion but I definitely don't want to see the freak of nature mutation that FFXI went through with Utsusemi (as NIN or /NIN)
#22 Jun 07 2009 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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PLD was second rate?
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#23 Jun 07 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
My personal opinion is ninjas shouldn't be tanking at all. They're ninjas.
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#24 Jun 07 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I wonder if they would consider adding in an evasion tank. Abilities like increase to dodge/evasion/parry/block. Possibility?
I tanked a few times as a Monk in crawlers nest. I think evasion tanks can be a bit overplayed.
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#25 Jun 07 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I was a ninja in FFXI and I'll either be one againin FFXIV, or if its classless I'll build my char into a ninja. I just want to use katanas, and doing something more with throwing (weapon skills) would be nice as well. As for tanking vs melee ninja? I could go either way. As for the ridiculous overuse of shadows, I agree that it needs to be turned down a notch, except not on ninja. Shadows helped define ninja, I just didn't like every non-ninja having virtually the same proficiency with shadows with /nin.
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#26 Jun 07 2009 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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By far, Ninja tanking was the best thing in FFXI (to me) and I am going to pray everyday till the game comes out that ninja tanking will be in ffxiv.
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#27 Jun 07 2009 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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GuardianZerato wrote:
I'm sorry I couldn't stand Utsusemi. If they bring it back it needs to be in a way that the class can never and will never main tank. Avoidance tank fine and dandy but guaranteed misses to single target magic and melee hits just doesn't fly for me after playing other games. I've always preferred the idea blood tanking. On the other hand it could be good as a cooldown ability on a long cooldown so it can't be used constantly but would still be a good emergency button. For instance, if it were just now introduced into FFXI a good measure would be a 3-5 minute cooldown. This is my opinion but I definitely don't want to see the freak of nature mutation that FFXI went through with Utsusemi (as NIN or /NIN)


I agree. They need to make sure the defence/vitality/HP and whatever elemtental defenses are worth it so that a Paladin or Warrior isnt' getting their face hit into the ground against things that do spells or even regular melee hits.

I will say that they shouldn't take Utsusemi away from Ninja (if either are in FFXIV), but they need to be rethought in a way that it doesn't become what it did in FFXI; the only way to survive on anything worthwhile.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 5:23pm by BJordan
#28 Jun 07 2009 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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I agree that if there is utsusemi, it needs to be only accessible to Ninja. I would much rather not be utsusemi at all, but I can compromise.

The main problem with utsusemi wasn't that it was far too revolutionary, but rather the DEF/VIT setup was too broken as far as mitigating damage goes. It made taking hits very rough without going into the extreme -dmg%. The only job that could blood tank was PLD with merited shield skill, and even that job has to use shadows at times.

So instead of fighting for utsusemi, there should be rally for fixing DEF/VIT and make it comparable.
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#29 Jun 07 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Default
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For some reason I think that Ninjas won't make it to FFXIV (or at least not in the way we know them now). SE is trying to bring back balance to FF and ninjas are at the top of the overpowered list alongside red mages. I expect that "shadows" are not something that can be acquired in the new game.
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#30 Jun 07 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
That's nice.
#31 Jun 07 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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Ninja I expect, or in a classles system you can just build one. But I think you might be on to something concerning shadows. If they aren't eliminated, they will probably not be nearly as effective, or will be limited in some form or another.
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#32 Jun 07 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Blink tanking probably will not be, and definitely should not be, in FFXIV. A tanking mechanic based around negating all damage from a hit is far too broken. A type of tank where evasion was a key component to their damage mitigation would work, but not where they are dodging attack 70-90+% of the time.
#33 Jun 07 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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They might make something new, Ninjas that are more fleshed out as Ninjas and another tank that is a blink tank. It would be quite a unique tank class. Low defense and good damage but if they get caught with their shadows down they're going down fast.
#34 Jun 07 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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Yea bro, afraid so. I don't know that mazurka gives no hate now, but I do know it gives much much less. I kinda understood why though, because brd wasn't meant to be used that way, nor mazurka for that matter. On the other hand, nin wasn't meant to be a tank, but they didn't nerf it into ineffectiveness?


They didn't nerf NIN no, but they did buff PLD to the point where it's pretty rare to see a NIN tanking anything serious these days. There's only 1 NIN in my circles that still tanks on a regular basis, but he's pretty well pimped out (including a the relic Katana). But still, most PLDs will sub NIN for shadows when tanking any hard hitting bosses. It's become a bit of a crutch and I would rather see a better damage formula in XIV than was in XI to make blood tanking a viable option.

Not that I would mind a NIN class in XIV, or them having a form of shadows, but I would prefer their shadows to function more like the white magic Blink.
#35 Jun 07 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Yea I see where you are coming from. PLD should be a tank without dependancies on /nin. I myself tanked quite a bit on Nin/Drk, but that was in sky. In sea, I was fairly useless compared to Pld, unless it was some temporary kiting or JoJ. I had to lvl blm..... yuck. No offense blms, I just like to hit things or tank.
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