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Level DOWN.Follow

#1 Jun 07 2009 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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Whenever people start playing FFXI, one of the things they seem to get surprised about is that you can level DOWN.

Even though we're so used to it, even the term "level down" seems ridiculous to someone who is new to the game.

Personally, I think when we die in FFXIV, we should lose EXP, but it should stop at 0 and not force you to level down.

What do you guys think? Level down; in or out?

What do you guys think would be the best death penalty?

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 4:03pm by Poubelle
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#2 Jun 07 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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There are no levels in FFXIV so it will be impossible to level down. But I agree, leveling down is a stupid game mechanic and SE should never ever ever ever use it again in any game, ever.
#3 Jun 07 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I know there's won't be a traditional "level system" like what we have now, but I think there is going to be SOME sort of level, no?

Whether that be based on your skill with a certain weapon or spell, etc.
When you kill monsters, that kill has to mean something, right? (EXP?)

Therefore that progress could be taken away through dying.

I guess I should be thinking more "out of the box" but this is still a Final Fantasy game.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 4:07pm by Poubelle
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#4 Jun 07 2009 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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There needs to be a penalty for dying. Either exp or money, and exp is much easier to obtain.
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#5 Jun 07 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree that EXP should be the penalty, but levels should be safe "checkpoints" that you cannot lose.
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#6 Jun 07 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
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There probably will be some kind of penalty for dying to keep people from using a throw yourself at a mob over and over strat to kill something hard. Maybe they will keep weakness or a reductions in stats or skills something similar to that effect.
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#7 Jun 07 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, I think when we die in FFXIV, we should lose EXP, but it should stop at 0 and not force you to level down.

That seems kind of arbitrary. What makes that last EXP point so much more important than all the ones you lost before it? Plus it would be easily exploitable, since you would just make sure you were slightly over the level before you did anything dangerous.

No, they've got to either keep it as it is or scrap the experience loss altogether. I vote for the latter.

This is assuming this discussion even makes sense in the new world of no EXP.
#8 Jun 07 2009 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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There are no levels in FFXIV so it will be impossible to level down. But I agree, leveling down is a stupid game mechanic and SE should never ever ever ever use it again in any game, ever.


Do we REALLY know what kind of system it is to be exact? I thought they just said it would be different.

Keep exp loss or w/e we'll be getting from fighting but don't allow a level down.
#9 Jun 07 2009 at 12:27 PM Rating: Default
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To be honest, EXP loss is one of the biggest incentives I have ever seen to not do something stupid over and over agian. The only problem about FFXI's use of this was the amount lost. 10% for each death is way over the top. Any level 75 could downlevel to 74 if the only died 10 times (usually 75's weren't exp capped anyways)? I think a flat exp penalty would be more successful. The lower levels lose a larger chunk, but its easier to gain back. At 75 you don't worry about dying because that flat 1,000exp just isn't that much anymore. Granted eventually the level 75 is going to have to exp again to keep their buffer. 10 wipes in a dynamis and everyone is down to 74? That's kind of rediculous. I'm not against exp loss as a punishment, I think FFXI's 10% is simply too much.
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#10 Jun 07 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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10 wipes in a dynamis...? You would run out of time after 3-4 of them lol.
#11 Jun 07 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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There needs to be a penalty for dying. Either exp or money, and exp is much easier to obtain.

I disagree. Well, I agree that there needs to be a penalty, but not like that.

In XI, I think the wasted time was punishment enough. It tended to waste the time of everyone else in your group as well, which already added up to a major EXP loss in a leveling group. The actual EXP penalty was just kicking you while you were down.
#12 Jun 07 2009 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Asheron's Call had a vitae penalty. You don't delevel, or loose xp. You loose the ability to make as much xp as you were making off the same mob, before you died. Example: 100xp off a specific mob, but after you die, you come back to that same mob type and now you only get 90xp. If you keep dying the penalty gets worse, but if you don't then you eventually work off the penalty. Without a normal "level" system, I know it wouldn't be the same but something like this could be effective. The only problem I see is that when you cap your "level" no-one would care about a penalty that effects exp (or whatever), because you couldn't level down. It wasn't an issue for AC because its level cap was someting ridculous like lvl 500 lol.
#13 Jun 07 2009 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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theres not gonna be xp to penalize.
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#14 Jun 07 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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To be fair, as long you get get a Raise casted on you the XP loss is cut dramatically. With a Raise3 (at level 75) you're only losing 300xp which can easily be gotten back by killing 1 mob. So in an event like Dynamis where everyone who is killed gets raised the XP loss shouldn't be very significant. There's still always at least 1 lazy player who never seems to bother getting any buffer at all and ends up deleveling, but if you can't be bothered to kill an extra 10 mobs before switching to merit mode I think you deserve to be punished.

I'm someone who tends to do a lot of soloing for XP and so I've certainly lost my share of XP from dying, and even seen my share of 'level down's, but even still it hasn't hindered my will to try new things or to be generally adventurous. It may occasional dissuade me from doing things that I know will get me killed, but even then as long as there is a WHM present it's a non-issue. I've even more than a few times used the 'blood-port' method of travel even on level 75 jobs (that's where you willingly die so that you can select the "return to homepoint" option for a free warp).

All in all I've never had much issue with XP loss as form of learning from your mistakes, but at the same time I wouldn't really care if they decide to do away with it.
#15 Jun 07 2009 at 1:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think that if xp loss had been the only penalty for death in FFXI, it would have been bearable. It wasn't, however. It was just one aspect of the potential triple-kick to the teeth that could include rez sickness and a run back from a homepoint. The rez sickness meant that if it was your tank and/or healer that went down, you were stuck waiting for it to wear off. The run back from the homepoint meant that there were certain areas of a zone that were considered undesirable as options for xp because if someone did die and was forced to run back, it was too risky or took too long.

Edit to add: It's been so long I completely forgot about all the xp parties that involved some doofus making the party wait half an hour trying to get a rez instead of just taking the full hit and getting back into the action. That was awesome -.-

I don't think that a no-penalty for death is really all that great of an idea, but I do think that the penalty should be designed around the understanding that in an MMO, things can happen that result in death and are beyond the control of the players. If I join a PUG, I have no way of knowing that the healer has the unsavory habit of spending more time watching TV than paying attention to the game until I'm dead. Even the most attentive players with the most stable of connections aren't immune to the potential for a power outage or a disconnect.

There are ways to prevent zombie-zerging or discouraging the impression that players don't have to try because dying is a trivial inconvenience. I just think that there's a fine line between, "That kinda sucks" and "........"

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 2:13pm by AureliusSir
#16 Jun 07 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Excellent
One of the best things about videogames is you can do stupid things you wouldn't do in real life! I say don't punish too hard for dying, some punishment sure, but letting people do stupid things is important to the liberation from real life that videogames give us.
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#17 Jun 07 2009 at 1:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I swear that nobody has read the Q&A or the official press releases on this game with all the mentions of "levels" and "EXP". They have blatently said there are neither, so there is no question to that fact. I'm sure there will be some penalty for death, but you will not lose EXP or level down because there will be neither EXP to lose, nor a level to lose.

Maybe something like WoW where you have a corpse run and damage to your equipment, or a wait time to get back in the battle like WarHammer Online. There has to be some penalty but stop thinking of levels and EXP because they are non-existant in FFXIV.
#18 Jun 07 2009 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
There needs to be a penalty for dying. Either exp or money, and exp is much easier to obtain.

Seems like losing money might be a good way to combat inflation though...
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#19 Jun 07 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Hayt wrote:
I swear that nobody has read the Q&A or the official press releases on this game with all the mentions of "levels" and "EXP". They have blatently said there are neither, so there is no question to that fact. I'm sure there will be some penalty for death, but you will not lose EXP or level down because there will be neither EXP to lose, nor a level to lose.

Maybe something like WoW where you have a corpse run and damage to your equipment, or a wait time to get back in the battle like WarHammer Online. There has to be some penalty but stop thinking of levels and EXP because they are non-existant in FFXIV.
/signed Thank you Finally! It seems like everyone here is arguing FFXI vs WoW and ignoring what the devs have said about 14. Its not going to be like either.
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#20 Jun 07 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't see a problem of using levels and xp in examples. I myself read the Q&A, but you just agreed that there should be some penalty for death. And there will be something that you will be earning as your character "grows". I think its important to look at the heart of the posts and not take the ideas of "xp" and "levels" too literally. This is just a vehicle for explaining possible results of death. And because we don't know exactly what the system is yet, I see no reason why I can't use "xp" and "levels" as an example.
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#21 Jun 07 2009 at 1:37 PM Rating: Default
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No penalty for death = noobs spam zombie tactics on everything and throw endless bodies at the mob until it dies.
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Seems like losing money might be a good way to combat inflation though...

People are still stupid enough to think that inflation is bad? 2005 economy > 2009 economy, unless you're a dirt farmer.
#22 Jun 07 2009 at 1:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why not use "time" or "money" as examples. Other games when you die your equipment takes damage, and costs money to repair. Also, you have to wait a certain time before you can rez or get back into the battle. There are millions of ways to penalize a character for death that don't involve losing EXP or leveling down. So stop thinking in this mode and let's start thinking about how it will be implimented in FFXIV.
#23 Jun 07 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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In my opinion and how I believe the system will work is something along the lines of a death penalty. The more you get dead the larger the death penalty gets to a certain point. You essentially kill to pay of the dept in till you can start gaining exp or points or whatever they have in store.

You never really lose your hard earned skills but you will have to bust your *** to work off that dept. I was always a fan of this method.


Edit: It reminds of the MMO Saga of Ryzom. Every time you die you gain some DP(death points). At early levels the DP isn't all that big, but the higher you get in a skill the more DP you get.

At the highest level if you reach the maximum DP it could possibly take you a day or more to work it off..in other words a day of nothing but grinding to get to the point where you start gaining positive exp again.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 5:53pm by CupDeNoodles
#24 Jun 07 2009 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Hayt, buddy, pal..... I realy do get where you are coming from, trust me people have read the Q&A. They are not stupid. But if you insist I will copy and paste my original explanation, revised w/o the use of lvl or xp:

Asheron's Call had a vitae penalty. You don't loose skill. You loose the ability to make as much increase to your skills as you were making off the same mob, before you died. Example: .1 skill up to sword off a specific mob, but after you die, you come back to that same mob type and now you only get .09 skill up to sword. If you keep dying the penalty gets worse, but if you don't then you eventually work off the penalty. Without a normal "level" system, I know it wouldn't be the same but something like this could be effective. The only problem I see is that when you cap your skill noone would care about a penalty that effects skill point increases, because you couldn't loose skill. It wasn't an issue for AC because its "level" cap was someting ridculous like lvl 500 lol.
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#25 Jun 07 2009 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Cup, that is pretty much what I was saying through my example from AC. But yea, i think it would be a solid penalty system.
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#26 Jun 07 2009 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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No penalty for death = RMT spam zombie tactics on everything and throw endless bodies at the mob until it dies


Fixed
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#27 Jun 07 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
There needs to be a penalty for dying. Either exp or money, and exp is much easier to obtain.
5min of rez sickness + a huge mp/cast time hit for your mage, and/or running all the way back to where you were wasn't bad enough?
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#28 Jun 07 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
Asheron's Call had a vitae penalty. You don't loose skill. You loose the ability to make as much increase to your skills as you were making off the same mob, before you died. Example: .1 skill up to sword off a specific mob, but after you die, you come back to that same mob type and now you only get .09 skill up to sword. If you keep dying the penalty gets worse, but if you don't then you eventually work off the penalty. Without a normal "level" system, I know it wouldn't be the same but something like this could be effective. The only problem I see is that when you cap your skill noone would care about a penalty that effects skill point increases, because you couldn't loose skill.

Sounds awesome... but...

You wanna make it really evil? Have the penalty when level capped, be a lowering of the drop rate of items.

THE DRAMA THAT WOULD ERUPT WOULD BE BEAUTIFUL!!!!!
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#29 Jun 07 2009 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn, thats horrible!!!
I love it!
You've got an evil mind, and I have to say I respect that.
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#30 Jun 07 2009 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
Asheron's Call had a vitae penalty. You don't loose skill. You loose the ability to make as much increase to your skills as you were making off the same mob, before you died. Example: .1 skill up to sword off a specific mob, but after you die, you come back to that same mob type and now you only get .09 skill up to sword. If you keep dying the penalty gets worse, but if you don't then you eventually work off the penalty. Without a normal "level" system, I know it wouldn't be the same but something like this could be effective. The only problem I see is that when you cap your skill noone would care about a penalty that effects skill point increases, because you couldn't loose skill.

Sounds awesome... but...

You wanna make it really evil? Have the penalty when level capped, be a lowering of the drop rate of items.

THE DRAMA THAT WOULD ERUPT WOULD BE BEAUTIFUL!!!!!


Oh god... I could totally see SE doing that... For all we know they already do and no one has picked up on it because drop rates are so abysmal to begin with...
#31 Jun 07 2009 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Hayt wrote:
There are no levels in FFXIV so it will be impossible to level down. But I agree, leveling down is a stupid game mechanic and SE should never ever ever ever use it again in any game, ever.
In FFXI's case, if there is no level down then there would be no reason to cap exp at 75 and to stay at limit points mode forever and SE doesn't want that, understandably (although level down ought to be rid of for lv 1-74).
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#32 Jun 07 2009 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Kerberoz wrote:
No penalty for death = noobs spam zombie tactics on everything and throw endless bodies at the mob until it dies.

I have a feeling weakness will stay in FFXIV, and may even last longer due to no xp.
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#33 Jun 07 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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There's one thing people are forgetting about death penalties; it has to prevent griefers as well. If its something small or something that won't matter at level cap then trainers and MPKers will run wild.
#34 Jun 07 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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There should be a somewhat harsh penalty for dying, I agree. Not as harsh as the Level Down was for XI, but not as wimpy as 'run back to your body from a graveyard and maybe repair your armor for a trivial amount' either.


Luckily, since SE has established themselves as the master of things that hurt you and make you want to cry in MMOs, I'm confident they'll come up with a reasonable medium.
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#35 Jun 07 2009 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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LOL

Luckily, since SE has established themselves as the master of things that hurt you and make you want to cry in MMOs, I'm confident they'll come up with a reasonable medium.


AMEN
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#36 Jun 07 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Why does death in an MMORPG have to be harsh? That's FFXI mentality. In other games that are much faster paced, if you are out of the action for 5 minutes that enough penalty. If you have to spend a lot of gil/gold/isk to repair yourself after a night of fighting, that's enough penalty.

For some reason the hardcore FFXI fans are defending an EXP/level down penalty, and even expecting it to be somehow implemented into a game with neither EXP nor levels!
#37 Jun 07 2009 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I think that you should lose xp and be able to level down when you die. Death should never be ok at any level. I hated how EQ had a debt system when you died and you only recieved 50% xp when you leveled. I much rather have a bad day yesterday not carry over.
That being said, since there is no "xp grinding" it is useless to be concerned with it.
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#38 Jun 07 2009 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Hayt wrote:
Why does death in an MMORPG have to be harsh? That's FFXI mentality. In other games


In other games you:

Lose money
Lose A LOT of exp
Lose gear, including RARE AND EXPENSIVE GEAR
Lose the ability to fight depending on game (a "cool down" period)

It's a FFXI mentality, really? Also unlike most other MMOs, when you die and get raised, you actually can regain some of your lost EXP, in many others? Not unless you use an expensive item, highly trained skill or a 'cash shop' item.

FFXI is a lot more forgiving in terms of death penalty, and it should return for FFXIV, even though they said there will be no exp, too soon to say what kind since we know nothing about the mechanics of the game yet, but I can guarantee it will still be the most forgiving of most MMOs.

Simply paying off your penalty is a really dumb way to teach people constantly dying will get you no where.
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#39 Jun 07 2009 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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Way to quote half my post.

Name one other game that actually takes a level away from you when you die. I'm trying to say that there are other ways to penalize a player for death, and there are options that don't involve either EXP loss or level down or both. I agree that death needs some sort of penalty but I'm trying to say that in a game like FFXIV where there is neither a level to lose nor EXP to lose, there needs to be an alternative. That is the topic of discussion.
#40 Jun 07 2009 at 3:03 PM Rating: Default
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Hayt wrote:
Way to quote half my post.

Name one other game that actually takes a level away from you when you die. I'm trying to say that there are other ways to penalize a player for death, and there are options that don't involve either EXP loss or level down or both. I agree that death needs some sort of penalty but I'm trying to say that in a game like FFXIV where there is neither a level to lose nor EXP to lose, there needs to be an alternative. That is the topic of discussion.


Yet you say it's a 'ffxi mentality.' I can't name another MMO that takes a level away as I'm not dumb enough to constantly die to find out, yet it's over exaggerated that you'll constantly delevel in FFXI and it's 'too harsh'..you do NOT delevel when you die unless they changed that since last week when I played FFXI.

When did they confirm there were no levels in FFXIV? Did I miss an announcement? Talking about me 'half-quoting':

I wrote:
FFXI is a lot more forgiving in terms of death penalty, and it should return for FFXIV, even though they said there will be no exp, too soon to say what kind since we know nothing about the mechanics of the game yet, but I can guarantee it will still be the most forgiving of most MMOs.


So if you find FFXI's penalty harsh, you don't play many MMOs. Losing a level is a lot less harsh than losing a piece of gear that you worked weeks or months for only to lose it to some random person that happens to see your dead body and gear/money nearby.
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#41 Jun 07 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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OK, so these seem to be the main death penalty points:

1. skill loss (of some sort Hayt)

2. time out/time down

3. skill gain debt

4. money loss (whether gil or repair)

5. item loss

6. some combination of the above

I'm pretty much fine with all, except item loss. However, with that said some could be made too taxing, and others not taxing enough. Gil might be hard to come by and if it is, any sort of currency loss will just suck. On the other hand if they are too light-handed with it, it will be way too easy. Time downs of 3-5 min are just fine and reasonable, but in and of itself isn't enough penalty. On the other hand if time is the only penalty, and they make like 10 min time down penalties, it would just destroy endgame events. There has to be a reasonable ballance. But there should not be an easy button. I liked FFXI's method just fine. As for delevel, don't sell your old gear too soon noob. ^.~
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#42 Jun 07 2009 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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mpmaley wrote:
10 wipes in a dynamis...? You would run out of time after 3-4 of them lol.


I was just using it as an example. Any largescale thing like dynamis would be the same. If the group happened to make it through 10 wipes they would be unable to continue, simply because they have all downleveled and it would be illogical to try when not level capped. I've been playing WoW recently, and 10 wipes is not uncommon when you are trying to get through some new content.
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#43 Jun 07 2009 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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There are no levels in FFXIV. This has been confirmed for at least 3 days now. Stop it.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
#44 Jun 07 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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There may not be levels but there will be some form of progression. "Level" is just a placeholder word right now.
#45 Jun 07 2009 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Mictam wrote:
[quote=mpmaley]I was just using it as an example. Any largescale thing like dynamis would be the same. If the group happened to make it through 10 wipes they would be unable to continue, simply because they have all downleveled and it would be illogical to try when not level capped. I've been playing WoW recently, and 10 wipes is not uncommon when you are trying to get through some new content.

You can't really compare WoW content to FFXI content...

Considering that an "Extremely long boss fight" in World of Warcraft is 10 minutes long... Actually, I think the longest boss fight in World of Warcraft history was at it's longest only 12 minutes long.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 7:14pm by Karelyn
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#46 Jun 07 2009 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Hayt wrote:
There are no levels in FFXIV. This has been confirmed for at least 3 days now. Stop it.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309




Conference wrote:
The developers attribute the long-lasting success of Final Fantasy XI to the Job System, and plan to learn from it and greatly expand off the concept. They want to end up with something completely different, one that maintains this lasting appeal for the player. Instead of leveling up with experience points, weapons will play a key role in how a character grows and develops. No more grinding XP for levels - they have something new in store.


Since when is that a confirmation for "no levels"? There's plenty of RPGs (and various other games) that doesn't utilize "EXP" for leveling yet levels are still present. If there's any type of growth, leveling still exists, it just won't be in the same sense as "Level 1-100". And again as I said, it's too soon to draw any conclusions about anything.

Edit: Bolded the part that dashes the whole "no levels in FFXIV" opinion.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 4:28pm by Theonehio
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#47 Jun 07 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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My response was to Mistress Theonehio who was second-guessing my claim that there were no levels in FFXIV. I responded with a link to information from the official statements released by SE, that yes, there will be no levels in FFXIV.

Of course there is some sort of progression, and some sort of penalty upon death, but the point that most of us here are trying to make is that in a game with no EXP or Levels to speak of, there has to be alternate methods for both. Levels are basically arbitrary timesinks that just make you waste time (and money via a monthly fee) to stay in the game. There are plenty of games out there that eschew the traditional "level" system and do quite well, some of which are actually SE created games. I'm really looking forward to this game because of this fact.

The point of an MMORPG or any other game should not be the time spent to get to some arbitrary "max level", but the adventure on the way and what players can accomplish in groups, whether they have played for 5 years or 5 days.

#48 Jun 07 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you Mistress. Hayt, you just keep talking in circles buddy. And I don't understand why. I know there won't be exp and lvls in a traditional way, but there will be levels in some form or format. You don't like levels? Fine, skill level or rank or grade or an endlessly increasing title progression as you grow. Thats all I have to say, I am done with this thread. Good luck with Hayt everyone.
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#49 Jun 07 2009 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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Whatever. The title of this thread is Level DOWN, and some of us are saying that there will be no leveling down because there will be no level to lose. Some want to argue semantics, and have only played FFXI and not other MMORPGs to realize the vast array of death penalties that can be inflicted on a character that don't involve EXP loss or leveling down.

There will be a penalty to death, but since there will be no job levels or EXP points towards those job levels, those can not be factored in to the new system of death penalty.
#50 Jun 07 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Default
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If you remove level down in FFXI for example, people would be more dumb and less careful, and, i'm one of those that had fun dieing 10 times in a row against big stuff, call me sado or wathever :o
#51 Jun 07 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Hayt wrote:
Whatever. The title of this thread is Level DOWN, and some of us are saying that there will be no leveling down because there will be no level to lose. Some want to argue semantics, and have only played FFXI and not other MMORPGs to realize the vast array of death penalties that can be inflicted on a character that don't involve EXP loss or leveling down.

There will be a penalty to death, but since there will be no job levels or EXP points towards those job levels, those can not be factored in to the new system of death penalty.


@Bolded:

Which is kind of funny, since you think FFXI has a harsh penalty and it's a FFXI mentality that FFXIV should have a harsh one, when if you have played other MMOs, should know and realize losing a level (which can take a while unless you constantly die or die right as you level) is far from harsh.

No one said 'Level Down' should continue to FFXIV, at least I haven't, hence why I personally said it's too soon to say what KIND of penalty should be enacted.

What is with you still saying there won't be levels? It's virtually impossible to NOT have levels and have a growth system, even if it's not called "Levels", it will still be present, notice how they never said "no more levels", just no more grinding exp for levels as they're getting rid of the exp system and weapons will play a big part in how you develop, which btw, if it's like FFII, it's still basically levels.



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