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Level DOWN.Follow

#52 Jun 07 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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Play EVE Online, play Ultima Online, play FFX, play any other game where level is non-existant and you will see that it is not necessary. When we are talking "levels" we are talking character levels that exist in most RPGs and MMORPGs. Increasing skills/abilities through some other system is not gaining levels.

Leveling down is a stupid game mechanic. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal unless you are level 75 and die a few times in some endgame events and BOOM you are now level 74 and now half of your gear, and your merited abilities, no longer apply. Now you have to go off and join a mindless merit party or Campaign to get that back so you can again use your gear/abilities. That's just stupid.

#53 Jun 07 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Whatever. The title of this thread is Level DOWN, and some of us are saying that there will be no leveling down because there will be no level to lose. Some want to argue semantics, and have only played FFXI and not other MMORPGs to realize the vast array of death penalties that can be inflicted on a character that don't involve EXP loss or leveling down.

There will be a penalty to death, but since there will be no job levels or EXP points towards those job levels, those can not be factored in to the new system of death penalty.


Referring to level and EXP is just an assimilation of sorts. I think we can all agree that there will likely be some form of progressive character development, for lack of a better term until SE gives us one, we've decided to default to universal terms that everyone on this board of mixed MMORPGers is sure to comprehend (level/EXP).

Now, any form of progressive character development that is given by the game can just as easily be taken away. So no it's not an impossibility.
#54 Jun 07 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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but theres a chance you can level down in EVE. Remember if your clone isnt backed up and you get pod kill youve lost all those skill points youve earned since you had your last clone made. So theres an element of leveling down in eve. Even tho its pretty hard unless youve been neglecting your clones.
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#55vedina, Posted: Jun 07 2009 at 3:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) to everyone saying "there are no elvel downs, stop sayign that blah blah blah blah" yes, there will eb no "level" and there will be no "exp"
#56 Jun 07 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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We're talking leveling down and losing EXP. Nobody said that there will be no character development. What the **** are you talking about?
#57 Jun 07 2009 at 4:01 PM Rating: Default
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ummm im talking about this

people say "should there be level down in XIV" <or whatever>

then people come in and say "thats impossible cuz there will be no levels noob"

when in fact, it is impossble to NOT have them, even if they arent called exp and elvels, even if they dont work the way levels and exp traditionally do, they have to exist for your character to grow

my post was simply telling everyone who has said "there are no levels stop saying levels radda radda radda radda radda radda radda radda radda radda " to give it a rest and let people say what they want at least until we know more about this new system of LEVELING
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#58 Jun 07 2009 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Level 75 caps at 43,999 xp.
You lose 10% of a level, to a maximum of 2,500, when you die.
You lose less xp if you have a bed in your moghouse
Raise 1 restores 50% of the lost XP.

You'd need to die 18 times then homepoint before you'd lose level 75.
You'd need to die 36 times then eat raise 1 (frequently the raise of choice in events) before you'd lose level 75 if you are doing anything big.

You can always buy reraise2 gorgets or hairpins to cut down the loss to 25%.

You'd need to die 72 times with reraise 2 before you'd lose level 75.

Considering most people tend to wait at least 5 minutes (Weakness duration) before they die, 72 death back to back requires 6 hours of non-stop "die-at-the-very-first-second-you're-back-in-action".

Considering you only need 4 hours with a pretty slow/average party at 75 to get 40,000 xp back... It takes MORE time of non-stop dying to lose a whole level than it takes to earn it back. I will never understand why people are so afraid of that penalty.

I like to think of it as the saying "He who sows the wind reaps the whirlwind."

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 8:12pm by Lianda
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#59 Jun 07 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Lianda wrote:

Considering you only need 4 hours with a pretty slow/average party at 75 to get 40,000 xp back... It takes MORE time of non-stop dying to lose a whole level than it takes to earn it back. I will never understand why people are so afraid of that penalty.

I like to think of it as the saying "He who sows the wind reaps the whirlwind."


Because you're talking about xp loss as a level capped player in FFXI. I choose to look at the general meaning of this thread (despite the semantics) and evaluate the concept of character regression as a penalty for death to the extent that it would be possible to lose access to skills and abilities you've already learned.

Remember that when FFXIV goes live, we aren't going to start out with maxed out characters and all the options to progress that maxed out characters tend to take for granted. I was one of those players in FFXI who rarely leveled down. It was extremely rare for me to die while solo and I learned never to stick around in the kind of groups where it became apparent that I was likely to leave the group with less xp than when I started. That players often didn't consider themselves to have actually leveled up properly until they had a "death buffer" was kind of unfortunate. It took away a lot of the excitement from leveling up because for all of the fanfare, it was too fragile a success.
#60 Jun 07 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Default
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heh, its ture. the REAL level up occured after you killed a few more monsters so you wouldnt de-level if a death unexpectedly happend. and what did you gain from the true level up? nothing except perhaps peace of mind <if that>
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#61 Jun 07 2009 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
Remember that when FFXIV goes live, we aren't going to start out with maxed out characters and all the options to progress that maxed out characters tend to take for granted. I was one of those players in FFXI who rarely leveled down. It was extremely rare for me to die while solo and I learned never to stick around in the kind of groups where it became apparent that I was likely to leave the group with less xp than when I started. That players often didn't consider themselves to have actually leveled up properly until they had a "death buffer" was kind of unfortunate. It took away a lot of the excitement from leveling up because for all of the fanfare, it was too fragile a success.

To some extent, I've considered this to be a good thing though...

Yes it sucks to lose some EXP... Yet, it also keeps the worst of the worst players, the supreme mouth breathers from reaching a high level.

You don't know bad, until you've played World of Warcraft, and met a player who does 400 damage per second at level 80. It's worthy to note that I could quite literally smash my face into my keyboard as a damage dealer, and do over 2800 damage per second. Most players if they give a half-assed can reach up to 4000-5000 damage per second. Right now, the best players in the world are doing 7000-8000 damage per second. These bad players I am talking about, are literally performing at less than 10% of their capacity. It's truly mind boggling. These are the sort of players who could not solo past level 5 in FFXI

Downleveling saves FFXI players from that.

In FFXI, you either learned at least a baseline level of competency, or you'd be lucky to break level 16.

It makes for a happier community in the long run I think.
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#62 Jun 07 2009 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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Level Down was a bad idea.

I think the only reason SE kept it was because the loss of experience points was the only major downfall to dying in FFXI, and you have to have a negative effect for dying in a game. Otherwise there is no reason to play, just keep charging and dying until you win.

I highly doubt Level Down will be in FFXIV, it has to be the most 'casual-unfriendly' thing I have seen in a MMO.

There will have to be some sort of penalty for death though.
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#63 Jun 07 2009 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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I think the only reason SE kept it was because the loss of experience points was the only major downfall to dying in FFXI, and you have to have a negative effect for dying in a game. Otherwise there is no reason to play, just keep charging and dying until you win.


I think 5 minute weakness, and to a lesser extent being sent back to your homepoint (in the case of not having a raise available) are much bigger negative effects from dying in FFXI than XP loss.

**** personally I think losing whatever food you'd eaten prior to dying (and consequently the gil you'd spent on it) was a bigger annoyance than losing a little XP, but that's probably just me.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 10:40pm by PopeyesOpenEye
#64 Jun 07 2009 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Losing the ability to equip the gear you just blew 1.2 million on was truly unforgivable.

I'll pray they consider that one a "mistake" they can learn from.
#65 Jun 07 2009 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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**** personally I think losing whatever food you'd eaten prior to dying (and consequently the gil you'd spent on it) was a bigger annoyance than losing a little XP, but that's probably just me.


Yeah I felt that way too, after I hit 75 on multiple jobs and didn't really care that much about delvl.

But what about when you first started playing, and the only equip you had was for that lvl 10 char, then your dunes party screws up and you ended up naked with no gear at level nine. Its like punishing the noob party for being bad by making them worse. That was ridiculous. And it may not have been you, it might have been one of your party members, didn't make a difference, you just got nerfed because you were learning, making it then harder to learn and overcome your difficulties

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 12:09am by Shazaamemt
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#66 Jun 07 2009 at 11:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I think if you die there will be penalties as that is often the case in most games. People say there aren't any levels but how do you see how far you are progressing with weapons?
In FFXI you only see the number but if FFXIV is all about weapons i wonder if the weaponskill is the new levelbar?

Since they said weapons are important how do we know when we can equip the weapon there have to be a weaponskill number else you never know when you can equip it?

How about other stats like hp/mp, i don't believe all those stats will be on the weapons so maybe if you progress using a skill you gain stats if the skill get higher?

The other thing i would love to know is if there is a max on skills cause that would really be important to a lot of us as it either mean we could use 1 character for everything we want or we have to make more characters in order to do totally different things like melee and healing.

Oh well probably will take a while before more info is available about this new mmo. :)
#67 Jun 07 2009 at 11:56 PM Rating: Good
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In my opinion once you spent months and worked your **** off to get to the max level nothing and nobody should be able to take it away from you
how are you supposed to feel accomplished otherwise?

in ffxiv i dont want to hear any more "i would go BLM but i dont have exp buffer"
and ppl raging that they need them BLM for dynamis or w/e else
and those guys didnt have time to login and get the dumb exp back before the event. BLM is just an example of course

so pls no more exp lost!not at the max level at least!
i dont wanna be called dead weight again by ppl, that have all day to play, because i was studying for exam and i couldnt get lvl 75 back in time

(sorry for the bad english >< )
#68 Jun 08 2009 at 12:22 AM Rating: Good
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I'm probably in the huge minority, but I actually welcome the idea of a harsh death penalty. There has to be incentives to stay alive. I am more concerned about end-game activities, than character progression to max. You want to have in place a system that creates the incentive for the character to want to stay alive; that is, you have to have a harsh death penalty or else the content is trivialized by flinging bodies at mobs slowly whittling them down.

There should be some negative attribute associated with dying, that either being some form of exp loss, skill loss, whatever you want to call it in FFXIV, loss. Even FFXI's penalty wasn't that harsh. Play EVE sometime, or those who played UO or Darkfall, you know harsh.

So yes, I am in favor of de-lvling, de-skilling, de-character growth what have you. I'm also in favor of raise sickness and double raise sickness. They could cut the timer down to 3 minutes though.
#69 Jun 08 2009 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
perpispacity, but the problem is that those same players will be ultra conservative and avoid any real risk if the penalty is harsh enough. You are going to die in game just getting used to it and exploring while trying things. Even in Darkfall they have started acting to minimize risk, with naked ganking and huge alliances designed to prevent real risk and penalty.

if you want to stop zombie tactics, raise sickness is a far better deterrent when combined with time limits. But if the noobie constantly eats a 1k exp loss just doing anything out of the norm, he is going to quickly learn not to do anything if he wants to not delevel multiple times. It was a problem with FFXI to the point of people not even partying without PLers to remove any risk of death or slow downtime.
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#70 Jun 08 2009 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
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The Neispace of Doom wrote:
perpispacity, but the problem is that those same players will be ultra conservative and avoid any real risk if the penalty is harsh enough. You are going to die in game just getting used to it and exploring while trying things. Even in Darkfall they have started acting to minimize risk, with naked ganking and huge alliances designed to prevent real risk and penalty.

if you want to stop zombie tactics, raise sickness is a far better deterrent when combined with time limits. But if the noobie constantly eats a 1k exp loss just doing anything out of the norm, he is going to quickly learn not to do anything if he wants to not delevel multiple times. It was a problem with FFXI to the point of people not even partying without PLers to remove any risk of death or slow downtime.


I wouldn't say he is going to not do anything out of the norm, rather the player will either learn to be a better player (which back in the day, before XP required to lvl was lowered, and in the hayday of 4k/hr parties you had to play at a higher level (which is a good thing)), or in the case of exploring, they'll be safer and more aware of their surroundings (which, again is a good thing. Hey don't aggro those 3 mobs in Promies! (Back when mobs raped! before the nerf)).

Simply a raise sickness is not enough to deter. They'll continiously just throw themselves at the mob not fearing any repercussions. With a growth penalty they aren't. They will try a few things, take a step back and analyze the situation. That is in the best benefit of everyone as it improves the quality of players. No one likes to play with noobs. Teaching newbs however, is something I enjoyed doing.
#71 Jun 08 2009 at 1:31 AM Rating: Good
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I wouldn't say he is going to not do anything out of the norm, rather the player will either learn to be a better player (which back in the day, before XP required to lvl was lowered, and in the hayday of 4k/hr parties you had to play at a higher level (which is a good thing)), or in the case of exploring, they'll be safer and more aware of their surroundings (which, again is a good thing. Hey don't aggro those 3 mobs in Promies! (Back when mobs raped! before the nerf)).

Simply a raise sickness is not enough to deter. They'll continiously just throw themselves at the mob not fearing any repercussions. With a growth penalty they aren't. They will try a few things, take a step back and analyze the situation. That is in the best benefit of everyone as it improves the quality of players. No one likes to play with noobs. Teaching newbs however, is something I enjoyed doing.


I leveled beastmaster in FFXI to 75, mostly solo. I died so many times it was ridiculous, and each of those times I got half to full exp penalty. After awhile, you get to the point where you get tired of being pummeled for every mistake. And beastmaster, one mistake will kill you dead. It may not even be anything you can do-the random number generator behind charm may just ***** you twice, and you are dead. I died like 7 times learning on a mob no one ever experiences on (magic pots, you have to learn spacing to avoid ga spells and deal with gravity when you may not be able to remove it)

Another example was in aht urghan. I had flagged a quest for the caederva mire map. I didn't read on the wiki, and had forgotten the text (there is no real quest log) i saw a ??? outside in the thickets, and clicked it. A NM spawned and beat me to death. I lost 2.8k from that and learned to religiously read the wiki over anything suspicious.

i do not want that experience in a game ever again. I want to be free to make mistakes on occasion without having to lose 30 minutes to an hour progress. If the game is fun, I will want to be a good player. Sometimes you need to die to experiment-i shouldn't have to feel horrid because my party yelled at me and disbanded because i killed them twice while learning how to main heal in valkurm dunes.

When they did the alexander fight in toau, they removed the exp penalty. It was a wise move because people would go 0-10 on it without being stupid. They read the wiki, they followed the strategy as religiously as they could, and they still wiped. Sometimes a penalty is just that, a penalty. You can do everything right, and still fail, and the exp penalty makes the failure sting.

I'm not saying remove failure, but there as to be some kind of middle ground between no consequences, and look the **** up out of everything on the wiki and totally understand everything so you go 1/3 instead of 0/15 and delevel.


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#72 Jun 08 2009 at 1:51 AM Rating: Default
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i agree whole heartedly

sometimes its not your fault and there is literally nothing that you couldve done to stop your death if you redid it 1000 times aside from simply not being in that zone. why get punished when you did nothign wrong, that make sno sense. you get punished for mistakes and you learn from mistakes so that it doesn thappen again...but when you dont do anything wrong, you shoudnt be punished

and dude, seriosuly, just because game X has it harsher than game Y and your used to worse, that deosnt mean its good or not harsh in game Y

you jum out of a plane with no parachute a 20k feet...your going to die

but by your logic you'll be fine at 10k feet because its not as harsh?

exteme example yes, but i think you get my point


yes, there should be a penalty. an X amount if time wait time before you an fight again would work fine. it stops zombie tactics since by the time you can fight, that monster that killed you is back at full health. if mistakes were amde that got you killed last time, now you know, and hopefully you wont make them this time. and it gives plenty of incentive to not die because it slows down the night. you accomplish less if you keep dying and keep havign to wait. if its not your fault that you keep dying, but a paty member, request he be booted. if its generally the whole parties fault, leave the party and find a new group or solo or something

but thats just one penalty, there are lots of other options. and you know what, level down might be one of them. but i strongly believe it needs to be handles differently.
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#73 Jun 08 2009 at 4:19 AM Rating: Default
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The Neispace of Doom wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't say he is going to not do anything out of the norm, rather the player will either learn to be a better player (which back in the day, before XP required to lvl was lowered, and in the hayday of 4k/hr parties you had to play at a higher level (which is a good thing)), or in the case of exploring, they'll be safer and more aware of their surroundings (which, again is a good thing. Hey don't aggro those 3 mobs in Promies! (Back when mobs raped! before the nerf)).

Simply a raise sickness is not enough to deter. They'll continiously just throw themselves at the mob not fearing any repercussions. With a growth penalty they aren't. They will try a few things, take a step back and analyze the situation. That is in the best benefit of everyone as it improves the quality of players. No one likes to play with noobs. Teaching newbs however, is something I enjoyed doing.


I leveled beastmaster in FFXI to 75, mostly solo. I died so many times it was ridiculous, and each of those times I got half to full exp penalty. After awhile, you get to the point where you get tired of being pummeled for every mistake. And beastmaster, one mistake will kill you dead. It may not even be anything you can do-the random number generator behind charm may just ***** you twice, and you are dead. I died like 7 times learning on a mob no one ever experiences on (magic pots, you have to learn spacing to avoid ga spells and deal with gravity when you may not be able to remove it)

Another example was in aht urghan. I had flagged a quest for the caederva mire map. I didn't read on the wiki, and had forgotten the text (there is no real quest log) i saw a ??? outside in the thickets, and clicked it. A NM spawned and beat me to death. I lost 2.8k from that and learned to religiously read the wiki over anything suspicious.

i do not want that experience in a game ever again. I want to be free to make mistakes on occasion without having to lose 30 minutes to an hour progress. If the game is fun, I will want to be a good player. Sometimes you need to die to experiment-i shouldn't have to feel horrid because my party yelled at me and disbanded because i killed them twice while learning how to main heal in valkurm dunes.

When they did the alexander fight in toau, they removed the exp penalty. It was a wise move because people would go 0-10 on it without being stupid. They read the wiki, they followed the strategy as religiously as they could, and they still wiped. Sometimes a penalty is just that, a penalty. You can do everything right, and still fail, and the exp penalty makes the failure sting.

I'm not saying remove failure, but there as to be some kind of middle ground between no consequences, and look the **** up out of everything on the wiki and totally understand everything so you go 1/3 instead of 0/15 and delevel.




Please reconcile that not everything in the game revolves around solo, and or BST. The merits for having a harsh penalty are specifically derived from end-game content. Trivializing the majority of content that players actually participate in while playing FFXI is not conducive to any sort of challenge whatsoever.

Take Kirin for example. You can have 30 bodies and continually just cycle them in and out with no repercussion, which takes zero skill and trivializes the content. Would people mind this? **** no! Now, you throw in XP penalty and de-lvling for this activity, and do people care? **** yes! While you could technically do this and still succeed (Many a shell does), it makes that the minority, and reduces the instances of it happening, in effect creating a healthier more challenging end-game.

Please, think about the grand picture and why these are instituted. It's a well known fact, that most of your playtime will come from end-game activities, not leveling.
#74 Jun 08 2009 at 5:46 AM Rating: Default
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xVindico wrote:
Losing the ability to equip the gear you just blew 1.2 million on was truly unforgivable.

I'll pray they consider that one a "mistake" they can learn from.


That's not a "mistake" or even close to being one, it can't even be considered something bad, but using that logic, it's a mistake to have gender and race specific gear.
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#75 Jun 08 2009 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Please reconcile that not everything in the game revolves around solo, and or BST. The merits for having a harsh penalty are specifically derived from end-game content. Trivializing the majority of content that players actually participate in while playing FFXI is not conducive to any sort of challenge whatsoever.

Take Kirin for example. You can have 30 bodies and continually just cycle them in and out with no repercussion, which takes zero skill and trivializes the content. Would people mind this? **** no! Now, you throw in XP penalty and de-lvling for this activity, and do people care? **** yes! While you could technically do this and still succeed (Many a shell does), it makes that the minority, and reduces the instances of it happening, in effect creating a healthier more challenging end-game.

Please, think about the grand picture and why these are instituted. It's a well known fact, that most of your playtime will come from end-game activities, not leveling.


There is no point to the exp penalty then anyways. The problem in most FFXI endgame is time limit. Dying and re-raising takes time, and virtually everything has a time limit, either given explicitly, like in nyzul isle or einjerhar, or implicitly, as in a rage mode on an hnm or znm.

And even with a death penalty, kirin is trivialized. You can kill him in a minute or so with a DRK zerg. The death penalty is an afterthought in endgame now, raise 3 makes it next to nothing. Has that made endgame worthless? Heck no. Does it encourage the zombie rush? No, because dying a second time means your BLM and RNG are worthless. Double weakness makes all spells and ranged attacks miss or hit for zero.

Most of the death penalty in FFXI impacts the solo people and new people. Endgame? raise 3, and a 20k per hour party and its like the death penalty never existed. But trying to solo, or exploring a new area by yourself gets the full effect.

Even non-endgame. The death penalty does nothing for a bcnm, because the seals are harder to get than exp. You succeed not because you will get a penalty for death but because you may get a reward for finishing, and time is a pressure.

You don't need a death penalty, even without one 3 wipes on a single floor of nyzul will result in failure and probably the party stopping just because they don't want to waste tags.
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#76 Jun 08 2009 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
xVindico wrote:
Losing the ability to equip the gear you just blew 1.2 million on was truly unforgivable.

I'll pray they consider that one a "mistake" they can learn from.


That's not a "mistake" or even close to being one, it can't even be considered something bad, but using that logic, it's a mistake to have gender and race specific gear.


I'm not sure if I grasp your logic. I think the point was that if you've invested a considerable amount of time and energy into earning gear for your character, I can't think of any reasonable circumstance where you should lose the ability to equip that gear for any length of time. As an example, in games where the bulk of the penalty for death consists of durability loss on your gear, even if you break all of your gear it's just a matter of a trip back to town to repair it. In the games I've played where durability loss was a penalty for death (WoW and LOTRO), it was tuned so that a full break on good gear could be pricy, but not so enormous a sum that you wouldn't be able to repair it immediately as soon as you got back to town unless you were in the habit of running around with a bankrupt character. Compare that to a 2 hour wipe fest on a new boss with your shell that ends up costing you 20k xp and a delevel, you can't just go back to town and get your xp back. You have to either get a group with your half naked toon and grind it out or you have to whittle away at it solo or in Besieged/Campaign/whatever.
#77 Jun 08 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Perspicacity wrote:
Please reconcile that not everything in the game revolves around solo, and or BST. The merits for having a harsh penalty are specifically derived from end-game content. Trivializing the majority of content that players actually participate in while playing FFXI is not conducive to any sort of challenge whatsoever.


I'm going to have to disagree with that. You don't impose a penalty on players starting at level 5 (10?) that's intended to discourage certain tactics employed by level 75 players in end-game content.

Quote:
Take Kirin for example. You can have 30 bodies and continually just cycle them in and out with no repercussion, which takes zero skill and trivializes the content. Would people mind this? **** no! Now, you throw in XP penalty and de-lvling for this activity, and do people care? **** yes! While you could technically do this and still succeed (Many a shell does), it makes that the minority, and reduces the instances of it happening, in effect creating a healthier more challenging end-game.


XP loss is not the only way to prevent that sort of thing. Allowing a player to de-level as a result of said xp loss is not the only way to prevent that sort of thing. There are so many ways a game can be set up and tuned so that you don't have to bludgeon people for failure that xp loss and de-leveling is entirely unnecessary deterrents.

Quote:
Please, think about the grand picture and why these are instituted. It's a well known fact, that most of your playtime will come from end-game activities, not leveling.


Yes, if you're big on end-game and are lucky enough to find a stable group of people so that you have an ongoing option to participate. It's also a well known fact that not everyone who plays an MMO is big on end-game. It's a well known fact that a lot of people who play MMOs and are interested in end-game struggle to find linkshells/guilds/fellowships that will take them. Even if they find a group that will take them, there's never a guarantee that said group won't fold in a month and send them back out looking for another end-game group. As a result, they end up leveling subjobs/alts or farming solo or simply not playing the game anymore.

Please think about the grand picture before you tell others to think about the grand picture ;D
#78 Jun 08 2009 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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There is not any experience-based levelling in FFXIV, apparently it'll all (or mostly) be done via weapons. I'm not quite sure how this will work but thats what they said at the press conference.
#79 Jun 08 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Default
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ugh..this has been brought up alot already <actually on here i believe> but im going to say it again. if there is character progression, which there will be, it will involve numbers in some way shape or form. they may not be called levels, it might not eb called experience. but that IS essentially what they are and they can still make it so you "level down" only it might be called skill down, or job down, or whatever it is they are doign with the new progression system

basically its, in my mind, impossible to NOT have levels in a game where your character grows and developes...which we will in FFXIV
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if Allakhazam falls in the middle of a forest, its because bruce lee pushed his *** down

former FFXI player and future FFXIV player
#80 Jun 08 2009 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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777 posts
Jarooq wrote:
There is not any experience-based levelling in FFXIV, apparently it'll all (or mostly) be done via weapons. I'm not quite sure how this will work but thats what they said at the press conference.

*sigh* If you can't see how it would work, you obviously haven't played many RPGs. Or heck, at least half of the Final Fantasy games played with the idea of levels being relatively unimportant to player advancement.

Doesn't mean there won't still be some sort of penalty for dying, that takes away stats/skills you've learned.
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KUMQUATS
#81 Jun 08 2009 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
4 posts
could they not have something solely weapons based (which the dev team seemed to hint at in the QnA) where equipping weapons allowed you to learn abilities akin to FF9? then your abilities will be learnt from this and your stats will raise depending on the weapon. Though I suppose putting that much weighting on weapons is a bad idea in an MMORPG, maybe this theory isn't very workable after all
#82 Jun 08 2009 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
Jarooq wrote:
could they not have something solely weapons based (which the dev team seemed to hint at in the QnA) where equipping weapons allowed you to learn abilities akin to FF9? then your abilities will be learnt from this and your stats will raise depending on the weapon. Though I suppose putting that much weighting on weapons is a bad idea in an MMORPG, maybe this theory isn't very workable after all


The difficulty with a system that resembles FF9 is that FF9 still had a level system. You learned new abilities through the equipped weapon/AP system, but there was no method of increasing your stats in that way.

Personally, I think a more viable system is the one where you learn new abilities based on the abilities that you use, and different types of weapons augment your character based on the role you might associate with the weapon. The "as used" method that SE employed in The Last Remnant would (in my opinion) be an incredible system to implement in FFXIV with some tweaks and refinements and would be far more diverse and open ended than even a jobless system where a specific weapon can teach you a specific ability when you accumulate a certain number of points.
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