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"There are no levels in FFXIV"Follow

#1 Jun 07 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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This has been the mindset I've been seeing a lot, people seem to think this game won't have experience or levels. Technically they may be right as the in game systems may not have this name, but "experience" and "level" will be present in some form.

Any speculation on this?

My belief is that there needs to be an easy way to distinguish a players ability and play style. In Final Fantasy XI, if you were level 50 and needed a healer, you'd look for a level 50 WHM. This game may not have that standard style, but there needs to be an easy way to find exactly what you are looking for at your levels.

This is why I think there will definitely be a class system (as opposed to the idea that your character will grow depending on how you play him, I.E. equip a wand, white mage, equip an axe, warrior).
#2 Jun 07 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Grogrog wrote:
Any speculation on this?
Yeah, about a whole forum full of speculation.
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#3 Jun 07 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
It sounds like they're going to make some sort of highly modified class system, but they did specifically say no experience, what I think they mean by this is no single, increasing number that specifies the level of your character, it's probably going to go more like skill levels, so almost experience put into different areas instead of a single scale.
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#4 Jun 07 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Default
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But then how would other players be able to easily find what they are looking for in a group? If I'm looking for a damage dealer, I don't want to have to /check all his skills and abilities and make sure he's going to fill the role I need. That seems like it'd be a bit of a hassle.
#5 Jun 07 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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They said jobs are back. They'll just be different. The difference is that I don't think your jobs will necessarily level up via experience points. So no more, get 1,000 exp and you level up, but something different.

So I still think we'll have WHM, WAR, BLM, etc and you'll have the ability to change between them but we'll be "leveling" them up in a different manner than we saw in XI.
#6 Jun 07 2009 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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The mindset exists because SE explicitly stated as much. I suppose that you might call out for a player with certain ability levels or experience doing certain tasks. But XP won't be present, and the level 50 WHM from your example is gone with it. They said they want a more natural feel to your characters progression. Honestly, I'm so used to the way MMOs do things these days, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it too. But I trust that SE knows what they are talking about.

As for how will we find people to group with? I guess they'll have to bring a new grouping system along, but I'm sure they'll have one.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 5:08pm by ascorbic
#7 Jun 07 2009 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Exactly what I've been thinking. But then how would players determine whether the white mage he is inviting to his group is a beginner or a pro?

I KNOW SE will handle it properly as well, that's why half of the examples given have been terrible. I'm wondering what alternative we will have, and I know it'll be something simple. At least I'm 98% sure it'll be something simple.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 5:09pm by Grogrog
#8 Jun 07 2009 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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SE explicitly stated that there will be no EXP or levels in this game. I don't know why people are having such a hard time with this concept. There are a multitude of games that exist without these systems but everyone is hellbent on the FFXI system of EXP and levels and isn't willing to give it up.

Without knowing all of the details I envision the system as being similar to FF Tactics, FFX, Ultima Online, or the various other games where levels were non-existant, and instead your character "grew" by gaining skills/abilities thru some alternate method.

I, for one, welcome the new method of thinking. When you look at online games you realize that the "grind" to max level is just that, a grind to get to max level and then "start the real game". That's an unecessary timesink that will be eliminated by some new system. I would love to have played this game for like 6 months and maxed some skills/abilities/spells and then have a newbie friend of mine start the game and immediately be able to join me on missions/quests. The only advantage I would have over them would be that I hit harder (more weapon skill), cure for more (more magic skill), or take more damage (more HP/DEF) because I've spent time leveling those areas.

Levels are an artificical barrier/timesink that are unecessary.
#9 Jun 07 2009 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Exactly what I've been thinking. But then how would players determine whether the white mage he is inviting to his group is a beginner or a pro?

I KNOW SE will handle it properly as well, that's why half of the examples given have been terrible. I'm wondering what alternative we will have, and I know it'll be something simple. At least I'm 98% sure it'll be something simple.

LF Healer WHM skill 150+

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 5:35pm by mezlabor
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#10 Jun 07 2009 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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Also, that WHM with Healing Skill of 150+ will probably have some gear equipped (WHM-AF equivalent) that can only be equipped when they have reached some level of skill... I trust SE to make this work.
#11 Jun 07 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Hayt wrote:
I trust SE to make this work.
You MUST be new to Square MMOs.
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#12 Jun 07 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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If they dont then we will figure a way to make it work.
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#13 Jun 07 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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No jobs

Quote:
I would say that the key word for FFXIV is “growth.” We’ve already done the job system in XI, so this time we’re looking at new and interesting concepts for character growth. We hope you like it!


means you won't be looking for a WHM at all. You'll be looking for people to fill a role within a group based on the abilities that they have, which would no doubt be to include the development level of those abilities. "LFM healer cure3+"
#14 Jun 07 2009 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry Im probably using the wrong abbreviation I meant WHM=White Magic the skill not the job.
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#15 Jun 07 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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mezlabor wrote:
Sorry Im probably using the wrong abbreviation I meant WHM=White Magic the skill not the job.


I could have been more clear. My main point is that with a jobless system, we might as well get used to the idea that finding people to fill a group will be quite different from what we might be used to. I plan on developing a character suited to tanking because that's what I found to be the most enjoyable out of all of the MMOs I've played, but I also expect that if given the option, I'll be developing it with an eye to hybrid capabilities. I won't be an effective healer for content that I'm adequately developed to tank, so obviously just having the option to heal won't mean I can join any group that I could tank for as a healer. There will have to be some sort of specification for a level of abilities. Exactly how SE will implement that or allow players to search for it without having to talk to each and every player they come across is yet to be seen, but I'm sure they'll pull it off.
#16 Jun 07 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
No jobs

means you won't be looking for a WHM at all. You'll be looking for people to fill a role within a group based on the abilities that they have, which would no doubt be to include the development level of those abilities. "LFM healer cure3+"


They said there will be jobs. They said they'll be different than FFXI though.


Quote:
Quote:
What about jobs?
Jobs will return in Final Fantasy XIV, but they will be much different than the job system present in FFXI.


Source: http://ps3.ign.com/articles/991/991483p1.html

So what I'm thinking is that it will be like what you described but you wont' have a healer class (presumably the white mage) that knows any warrior abilities. I don't think this will be like FFX where you can learn everything but more along the lines of FFIX. You will need to equip weapons and use them for a certain amount of time to unlock an ability before removing the weapon. You can switch to other jobs but you don't get abilities from other jobs, but you also don't lose those abilities.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 5:58pm by mpmaley

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 6:02pm by mpmaley
#17 Jun 07 2009 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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Fact: FFXIV will have jobs. (although different than FFXI)

Fact: FFXIV will not have EXP.

Fact: FFXIV will not have levels.


Once everyone gets these facts straight, we can start hypothesizing about what the actual job/ability system will be in this game. Pikko brought up some good examples, and the Devs told us that they took inspiration from other games that don't use the FFXI traditional style of levels, jobs, mana, exp, etc.
#18 Jun 07 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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What about stat build up?

Right now I have no idea what they'll do. Possibly some type of point value that you get every fight, I guess not XP...called something else. And when it adds up enough you can increase HP/MP/etc sort of like merits and it's capped for a total and individual amounts?

ex)

You get a total of 300 'increases'

HP
MP
STR
INT
MND
CHR
AGI
DEX

And you can increase them all for a total of 300, but no single one can be increased past...say 75? (300 / 8 = 37.5 37.5 * 2 = 75)

Ahhh, the more I think about it the more I want information!!
#19 Jun 07 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Think of every "job" starting out at "max level" like in FFXI. So they inherantly have a set of jobs/abilities/skills just by selecting the current job they want to play.

Now, in order to "grow" the character, the player must progress through the game in some method not yet known to us. Think of spending Merit Points on new stats/spells/abilities on a level 75 FFXI character. During this process the player will be able to augment their characters stats/spells/abilities in some new way. I liken this to the FFX Sphere Grid system, the FF Tactics job system, or the Ultima Online skills system. There are other options to advance your character without the arbitrary timesinks of "levels" or "experience points".
#20 Jun 07 2009 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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Hayt wrote:
Fact: FFXIV will have jobs. (although different than FFXI)


The reason why its being discussed as a hypothetical and not a "fact", as you so eloquently put it, is because what entails a "job" is highly subjective. Are you a white mage because you selected it from a list of available jobs, or are you a white mage because you opted to focus almost exclusively on healing? Will you choose your own job title, or will the game assign a job title to you based on the skills you've developed? If you choose a title, it becomes pretty straightforward. If the game assigns a title for you, someone who functions in line with the paladin archetype in one tier of content might function in line with a white mage in another tier of content, in which case the job title is moot.
#21 Jun 07 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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I know. We aren't in disagreement on this point. SE stated there will be "jobs" in FFXIV, albeit different from those we have seen in FFXI. We don't know whether you choose a job or a job chooses you based on actions. We don't know yet. That's why we are hypothesizing about the new system. I'm just tired of people coming into these thread talking about gaining EXP/levels when SE said there are neither. We need to start thinking of new ways to view advancement of jobs/classes, from which other games have given us an idea. This will not be FFXI v.2.0, it will be an entirely new game and we have to start thinking of it that way.
#22 Jun 07 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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Hayt wrote:
Fact: FFXIV will have jobs. (although different than FFXI)

Fact: FFXIV will not have EXP.

Fact: FFXIV will not have levels.


Once everyone gets these facts straight, we can start hypothesizing about what the actual job/ability system will be in this game. Pikko brought up some good examples, and the Devs told us that they took inspiration from other games that don't use the FFXI traditional style of levels, jobs, mana, exp, etc.


Love gamers but I don't think many of them will be able to wrap around the fallacy that "levels are no more."

We may be able to create a game without LEVELS, but capability will be numerated SOMEHOW. A game without any time of numeration or ranking is... a fighting game (and arguably an FPS). We're playing an RPG. Our progress, potential, and capability must be marked and notated somehow. Levels are gone as we know them but we haven't quite reached an idyllic game where all are equal.

Or at least I don't think we will.
#23 Jun 07 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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I think "levels are no more" is a great idea. Levels in an MMORPGs, whether it be FFXI, WoW, EverQuest, whatever, are arbitrary timesinks or barriers for people to find the fastest way to overcome to start "the real game" at the level cap.

Progression, or "growth" in FFXIV will certainly take time, and numbers increasing something like skills/abilities/spells, but since there will be no level 1 vs. level 75 characters, players won't have to breach that artificial barrier to play with each other.

Imagine you are playing FFXIV for 6 months or more, really "growing" your character in some way to increase their HP/MP/abilities/weapon skills/etc. and a new player that just started this week wants to join you on a quest. Since there are no "job levels" to speak of, everyone is capable of contributing to the group. However, the new player, with little skills/abilities, will probably hit the mobs for much lower damage, and have less skills in his repertoire, but still able to contribute in some way. This would be an awesome system and I'm really looking forward to how SE will implement it into FFXIV.

#24 Jun 07 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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Hayt wrote:
I know. We aren't in disagreement on this point. SE stated there will be "jobs" in FFXIV, albeit different from those we have seen in FFXI. We don't know whether you choose a job or a job chooses you based on actions. We don't know yet. That's why we are hypothesizing about the new system. I'm just tired of people coming into these thread talking about gaining EXP/levels when SE said there are neither. We need to start thinking of new ways to view advancement of jobs/classes, from which other games have given us an idea. This will not be FFXI v.2.0, it will be an entirely new game and we have to start thinking of it that way.


It will take some time before players start thinking in terms of development and/or progression as opposed to leveling up, and I honestly don't expect that to even start happening until the game goes live and people can see first hand how things work out. Even if character development is based entirely on advancing your skills in a certain way based on certain criteria, people will still refer to it as "leveling up" their skills. It's just an RPG stereotype and getting worked up over it probably isn't going to serve any benefit. The lingo may change, but the underlying concepts remain the same...it's about progression.
#25 Jun 07 2009 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Hayt wrote:
I think "levels are no more" is a great idea. Levels in an MMORPGs, whether it be FFXI, WoW, EverQuest, whatever, are arbitrary timesinks or barriers for people to find the fastest way to overcome to start "the real game" at the level cap.

Progression, or "growth" in FFXIV will certainly take time, and numbers increasing something like skills/abilities/spells, but since there will be no level 1 vs. level 75 characters, players won't have to breach that artificial barrier to play with each other.

Imagine you are playing FFXIV for 6 months or more, really "growing" your character in some way to increase their HP/MP/abilities/weapon skills/etc. and a new player that just started this week wants to join you on a quest. Since there are no "job levels" to speak of, everyone is capable of contributing to the group. However, the new player, with little skills/abilities, will probably hit the mobs for much lower damage, and have less skills in his repertoire, but still able to contribute in some way. This would be an awesome system and I'm really looking forward to how SE will implement it into FFXIV.


If the game uses any kind of point system (ie. AP) reward for killing monsters, there would most likely have to be some sort of restriction put in place so that veteran characters can't function at "full power" alongside new characters or you'll end up with a broken progression system. Whether it's a voluntary system that resembles level sync or the traditional system of reducing the ap/whatever <new player> receives when the monster is damaged by <veteran player>. There's currently nothing preventing a level 75 from forming a group with a level 15 player and roflstomping Valkurm from one end to the other. It's useful for helping with quest drops and such, but the consequence for going the "ez mode" route is that the level 15 guy isn't going to see much (if any) xp in the process.

Another angle might be one where the character development system has nothing to do with any kind of point reward at all; progression of skills/attributes is based directly on the actions of the player. In that case, it's not unreasonable that no coded restriction or penalty would need to be imposed. If veteran player one-shots lowbie monster, lowbie player doesn't get a chance to do anything and consequently, none of their skills/attributes develop. This could be offset if veteran player were to use a particular area of abilities that they hadn't spent any time developing or restricted what higher power abilities they used so that the lowbie guy still had a chance to get some shots in.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 5:13pm by AureliusSir
#26 Jun 07 2009 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I've seen some posts talking about how there might not be a grind. No matter what, I believe that SE will implement some type of grind. I also don't think they would permit a high 'leveled' character to inflate a low 'leveled' characters stats with fighting.
#27 Jun 07 2009 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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If you combine all of the different things they have confirmed, it sounds like a weapon AP system like FFIX and Tactics Advance.

So you pick a job, say smn. Then you get a staff, that after earning 500 AP allows you to summon Ifrit.

That's how I believe it will work.

They did confirm that jobs would be in the game, but would be different than XI. Not necessarily different jobs, but they may play different roles. Again, they said this is meant more for a casual experience, with hardcore elements. So if you pick white mage, you should be able to solo roughly as well as a warrior.

That's my take, I just hope they announce details soon, but my guess is that TGS in September will be the most likely date.
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#28 Jun 07 2009 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If you combine all of the different things they have confirmed, it sounds like a weapon AP system like FFIX and Tactics Advance.

So you pick a job, say smn. Then you get a staff, that after earning 500 AP allows you to summon Ifrit.

That's how I believe it will work.

They did confirm that jobs would be in the game, but would be different than XI. Not necessarily different jobs, but they may play different roles. Again, they said this is meant more for a casual experience, with hardcore elements. So if you pick white mage, you should be able to solo roughly as well as a warrior.

That's my take, I just hope they announce details soon, but my guess is that TGS in September will be the most likely date.


This is what I'm thinking as well and I think I'd like the system too. It's been awhile since I've played IX...but couldn't you summoned WHILE learning?

I think @ TGS we'll get a ton of new information as well as beta announcement (or at least I hope).
#29 Jun 07 2009 at 5:23 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
So you pick a job, say smn. Then you get a staff, that after earning 500 AP allows you to summon Ifrit.


exp by any other name....
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#30 Jun 07 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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I hope they do this right... for me it wasn't being at level 75 that was exciting, it was the journey there. Leveling to 75 over and over and over again was the part I loved the most about the game...
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#31 Jun 07 2009 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
exp by any other name....


You think they're going to hand all your abilities to you on a silver platter and you'll be 'max level' when you start the game?

Quote:
I hope they do this right... for me it wasn't being at level 75 that was exciting, it was the journey there. Leveling to 75 over and over and over again was the part I loved the most about the game...


There will be some type of grind. That's one of the ways you get people playing for so long which means monthly fees.
#32 Jun 07 2009 at 5:46 PM Rating: Good
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#33 Jun 07 2009 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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Semi-random stat increases like in SaGa. Which stats increase depend on what you do in battle, e.g. if you cast spells a lot, you're likely to see MND or INT increase, but not STR. This allows the system to automatically tailor you to your playstyle, rather than forcing you to choose from a list of playstyles. HP/MP can increase in proportion to this, acting as an indicator of progress rather than a level.

The higher your stats, the lower your chances of seeing an increase, meaning you'll always have a chance to make progress even after years of playing without ever reaching a stat cap. Odds of seeing a stat increase can vary proportionately to the difficulty of a battle, with the expected limitations of having minimal to no chance to increase stats while partying with much stronger players.

The best part of this? The chance of increasing stats is always there no matter what you're doing. You don't necessarily have to join a "leveling party" to grow your character, because any sort of event can be tailored to give you weighted odds toward increasing your stats.

How would level requirements on gear be changed? Simply have stat requirements; mage-gear would require you to have a minimum MND or INT value, or perhaps a combination of both. Super high-end gear can require high minimums of ALL stats, something only longtime players would be able to achieve. Of course, rather than increasing stats, gear itself would provide more beneficial effects and resistances, perhaps bonuses to particular skills and whatnot. The gear would no longer make the player.
#34 Jun 07 2009 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You think they're going to hand all your abilities to you on a silver platter and you'll be 'max level' when you start the game?


Of course not, I wouldn't play if they did. I'm simply pointing out that it doesn't matter what you call it (exp, AP, limit points, kisses from jesus) these are all the same in the sense that they are currencies of "experience".

I'm sure SE has something new and different in mind, they usually do.
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#35 Jun 08 2009 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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SE explicitly stated that there will be no EXP or levels in this game. I don't know why people are having such a hard time with this concept. There are a multitude of games that exist without these systems but everyone is hellbent on the FFXI system of EXP and levels and isn't willing to give it up.


why in the world would someone want to play a online FF game with no levels or exp?
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#36 Jun 08 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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drkone wrote:
Quote:
SE explicitly stated that there will be no EXP or levels in this game. I don't know why people are having such a hard time with this concept. There are a multitude of games that exist without these systems but everyone is hellbent on the FFXI system of EXP and levels and isn't willing to give it up.


why in the world would someone want to play a online FF game with no levels or exp?


Because levels and xp are just a means to an end. You don't grind xp to level up under a "traditional" RPG system just so that you can have a bigger number beside the "Level:" spot on your character sheet. You do it so that your character becomes more powerful. Whether that goal is achieved through levels and xp or something else entirely is irrelevant.
#37 Jun 08 2009 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Can someone refer me to where they said there's "No EXP" and "No levels"?

I thought I read the statement "advancement will not be handled via experience" and/or levels.

Which I assumed to mean there could easily be other systems that decide how you "advance" and levels and experience might be there, but not as insanely vital as they used to be.

Again, I could've just read a different translation. There certainly seems to be a few out there.
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#38 Jun 09 2009 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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Love gamers but I don't think many of them will be able to wrap around the fallacy that "levels are no more."

We may be able to create a game without LEVELS, but capability will be numerated SOMEHOW. A game without any time of numeration or ranking is... a fighting game (and arguably an FPS). We're playing an RPG. Our progress, potential, and capability must be marked and notated somehow. Levels are gone as we know them but we haven't quite reached an idyllic game where all are equal.

Or at least I don't think we will.


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#39 Jun 09 2009 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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Zuken wrote:
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Try to think about it from the bigger picture. A no-level system in a standalone game can work quite handily because there's one thing you never have to do in a standalone game that is a very common need in an MMO: communicate a particular degree of development on a character for the purpose of finding a group to run content tuned to an appropriate degree of challenge. I think that more than anything is what a lot of us are curious about with the no xp/no level/no job system SE has mentioned. How will you sum up your characters available abilities to someone for the purpose of grouping if most of the standard indicators are absent?
#40 Jun 09 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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You keep talking about a no job system. But SE specifically said jobs are coming back. Yes they will be different than in XI but they will be back, and I linked up above to the quote. I know you feel that the gameplay mechanics might determine what job you are but we still have jobs in XIV. Regardless if we pick them or our choices pick them, we have jobs.
#41 Jun 09 2009 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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PrinnyFlute wrote:
Can someone refer me to where they said there's "No EXP" and "No levels"?

I thought I read the statement "advancement will not be handled via experience" and/or levels.

Which I assumed to mean there could easily be other systems that decide how you "advance" and levels and experience might be there, but not as insanely vital as they used to be.

Again, I could've just read a different translation. There certainly seems to be a few out there.


Source.

"Instead of leveling up with experience points, weapons will play a key role in how a character grows and develops. When the interviewer asks if series mainstays like Warrior or Paladin will appear, the developers simply hint that nothing will be exactly the same as we know it. No more grinding XP for levels - they have something new in store."


Edited, Jun 9th 2009 6:59pm by AureliusSir
#42 Jun 09 2009 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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mpmaley wrote:
You keep talking about a no job system. But SE specifically said jobs are coming back. Yes they will be different than in XI but they will be back, and I linked up above to the quote. I know you feel that the gameplay mechanics might determine what job you are but we still have jobs in XIV. Regardless if we pick them or our choices pick them, we have jobs.


Again, it comes down to what you define as a job. Do you play as a certain job because you selected one from a list of available jobs? Do you develop your character and then the game assigns you a job-like title based on the abilities that you've developed? Or is there no job title anywhere to be found and everything is based specifically on the skills and abilities you've developed. The example that I've used elsewhere: suppose you start off and level a character with a focus on defensive melee combat with a touch of healing magic thrown in. Within the common FF job system, you'd resemble what many people would recognize as a paladin, but what if you decide to go and spend some time with some less-developed friends as a healer. Are you now a WHM because you're not using your paladin abilities?

That's why people reference the "no-job" system. What constitutes a job system for many people might be too narrow a definition to apply to what we have in store for us in FFXIV.
#43 Jun 09 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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u CAN remove "levels" by doing 1 thing

give every mob an attack pattern which has to be analyzed of weaknesses which u can exploit.
the only difference between one mob and the next mob would be its stats, and new attack patern which u can account for if u buy better equips.

a new player wont no jack about a specific mobs attack patern and would eat sand b4 they even land 2 hits but a vet will and can easily school it with his eyes closed. in all honestly the vet can help the new player get used to the battle system by teaching him/her when to attack, when to dodge, and when to cast spells.

but what if when u do a /sea all u not only get a list of white magic users, u also get a view of their equipment which could help seprate the pros from the joes.

im having a mind block. i can't quite seem to gather my thoughts correctly to speculate anymore.
i still think having a number of some sorts can't be avoided. theres no other way that i can think of that could seprate ppl who have played for a long time from new players.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 10:17pm by Leyego
#44 Jun 09 2009 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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Leyego wrote:
u CAN remove "levels" by doing 1 thing


There's more than just the "one thing" that can be done. As I recall, in FFXI mobs didn't have a level that was shown explicitly in-game. Through experience we learned that when you check a mob and it cons as "even match," is is of the same level as your character for the purpose of calculating accuracy and damage modifiers. Depending on your level "tough" meant it was within a certain number of levels above your character, very tough a certain level range above that, and incredibly tough indicated anything from one level beyond the scope of very tough and beyond. Of course, then we had the joyful "Impossible to gauge" which meant nothing at all behind maybe some chewy loot if you could kill it.

So with that in mind, we don't need an explicit mob level system in FFXIV, because FFXI has shown us that you don't need one. If there is any way to check the strength of a monster relative to your stage of development, it could be based on any number of criteria that doesn't require that players be assigned a level.

So if we don't need a level system to determine whether or not we have a chance at defeating a particular monster, there is a system in place that allows our characters to progress their skills and abilities, and there is an effective system in place for communicating to other players where our character is at in terms of development, then we don't need a level system at all.
#45 Jun 09 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Again, it comes down to what you define as a job. Do you play as a certain job because you selected one from a list of available jobs? Do you develop your character and then the game assigns you a job-like title based on the abilities that you've developed? Or is there no job title anywhere to be found and everything is based specifically on the skills and abilities you've developed. The example that I've used elsewhere: suppose you start off and level a character with a focus on defensive melee combat with a touch of healing magic thrown in. Within the common FF job system, you'd resemble what many people would recognize as a paladin, but what if you decide to go and spend some time with some less-developed friends as a healer. Are you now a WHM because you're not using your paladin abilities?

That's why people reference the "no-job" system. What constitutes a job system for many people might be too narrow a definition to apply to what we have in store for us in FFXIV.


I still think you're speculating too much beyond what we know. What we know is that jobs will return in some form.
#46 Jun 09 2009 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
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should have rephrased. what i ment was the only thing i can come up with.

i bet theres thousands of ways to remove levels from a game, but since i can't wrap my head around an MMO with no level im compairing it to MH where there is no level just stronger mobs with different attack paterns.




Edited, Jun 9th 2009 10:52pm by Leyego
#47 Jun 09 2009 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
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mpmaley wrote:
I still think you're speculating too much beyond what we know. What we know is that jobs will return in some form.


I think that maybe you've missed the point. There's a difference between a "job" and a particular set of abilities. There's a difference between a "job" and the role you fill in a group. All the job system ever did was define which abilities your character would have access to as you leveled up. It was effective, but restrictive. The subjob system added a level of diversity to that, and apparently SE liked the diversity and has decided to make that a focus in FFXIV. That's about all we know. I guess it's a chicken and egg situation; which came first: the job, or the abilities that define the job?
#48 Jun 09 2009 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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KPBeta wrote:
Hayt wrote:
Fact: FFXIV will have jobs. (although different than FFXI)

Fact: FFXIV will not have EXP.

Fact: FFXIV will not have levels.


Once everyone gets these facts straight, we can start hypothesizing about what the actual job/ability system will be in this game. Pikko brought up some good examples, and the Devs told us that they took inspiration from other games that don't use the FFXI traditional style of levels, jobs, mana, exp, etc.


Love gamers but I don't think many of them will be able to wrap around the fallacy that "levels are no more."

We may be able to create a game without LEVELS, but capability will be numerated SOMEHOW. A game without any time of numeration or ranking is... a fighting game (and arguably an FPS). We're playing an RPG. Our progress, potential, and capability must be marked and notated somehow. Levels are gone as we know them but we haven't quite reached an idyllic game where all are equal.

Or at least I don't think we will.


My thoughts are similar. I believe levels will be in FFXIV even if not called explicitly such. With the developers giving emphasis on weapons, I'm banking characters will be differentiated by their degree and type of weapon proficiency. Weapon proficiency would influence the quality and type of equipment a person can wear, the abilities they can use or learn, and perhaps their job title.

I'm also among the crowd speculating that something similar to the AP system of Final Fantasy IX and Final Fantasy Tactics Advance games may return. However, if AP is earned from defeating monsters, we effectively have experience points and a level grind in another form.

Regardless of the above, character progression or "growth" has to be accounted for in some form whether it has a number beside it or not.
#49 Jun 09 2009 at 11:06 PM Rating: Default
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I have been thinking about this alot. They did say no experience. Which means there is no experience. Now I started thinking of Rpg like games with no experience in them. They did state weapons would have a big roll in your development as well as the story. Also they would be keeping the job system and expanding on it. It will be different that is a given. No two FF games are ever the same for the most part and most dont even share the same style of gameplay in general. Here is a list of ideas>

FF2: This imo is very unlikely it means that you could just sit at a zone if there is zones and let a mob mash on ya for a good while zone, heal and rince repeat. I see many flaws in this system and it wouldnt require you to choose a class more or less use the abilities of a class to lvl up. You could argue if your a whm you would be using tons of mp so your mp would go up just as an ex. But I just know that the game itself had lots of problems with the system. At anyrate that was an old game and the problems could be ironed out. If you played the game you would understand.

FFIX: Alot of people are speculating this because the makers of FFXIV had worked on FFIX. So what would this have to do with the JOB system which they did state was coming back in a way, aswell as no exp. But if you equip a weapon and kill mobs for points towards your spells that are on your gear selection you might as well call it EXP. So I cant personally see this working out. Though a variant would maybe work. (this is all just speculation based on the interviews.) Though this would support the argument of weapons supporting your characters growth.

Now a title that is no where close to a FF series but supports alot of the claims SE made about development of characters. (This is a long long long shot but may actually have validity.)

Monster Hunter: Okay if anyone has played this game you should already know what I am talking about. I am going to hit every point and explain where I am coming from.

Growth through Storyline: This game was all about questing for monsters and then using monster parts for crafting items to help you out weither it would be a weapon, armor, food, you name it. As you progress you run into more advanced recipes and hence forth better armor. There is also no EXP in this game.

Weapons playing a key roll: So since there is no exp in this game how do you develop as a character? Well the farther you get the better your resources are and the better your weapons and gear get. Weapons and Armor are what your stats are based off. Every piece of armor is a vital part of your characters stats and strategy. And hence forth playing a huge role in the game which supports the statements made by the interviewee. They still had different classes Gunner, Gunlance, Spears, Hammers, Hunting Horns, and your gear was directly associated with this.

One day you will maybe use one weapon and then the next day use a different one: The way I think this would work is that one day youll use the gear based towards your whm then then if you are fighting something that requires you to use a different style of play just switch gear and wammoo instant change! Just like in Monster hunter one weapon had a slight advantage over a certain monster and so forth.

Determining Player Abilites and LvLs: This also wouldnt be to hard just look at the gear and bam you got an idea of where that character stands.

This would also combat RMT because in Monster Hunter all your material was dropped by mobs. Or farmed/mined and they cant keep you from killing crap. Maybe Nms could drop rare material so you can get some better then average armor stats and weapon stats. Heck who knows I think it would be awesome.

This is basically hitting head on and without a doubt everything that was stated in the interviews. Weapons playing an intricate roll. Character development through your gear. No exp. Storyline being important. It all hits home. Now im not saying im right and this is what its gonnna be but its an example of what it could be.



Edited, Jun 10th 2009 3:12am by JingleHymer

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 3:34am by JingleHymer
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#50 Jun 10 2009 at 12:33 AM Rating: Default
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JingleHymer wrote:
I have been thinking about this alot. They did say no experience. Which means there is no experience. Now I started thinking of Rpg like games with no experience in them. They did state weapons would have a big roll in your development as well as the story. Also they would be keeping the job system and expanding on it. It will be different that is a given. No two FF games are ever the same for the most part and most dont even share the same style of gameplay in general. Here is a list of ideas>

FF2: This imo is very unlikely it means that you could just sit at a zone if there is zones and let a mob mash on ya for a good while zone, heal and rince repeat. I see many flaws in this system and it wouldnt require you to choose a class more or less use the abilities of a class to lvl up. You could argue if your a whm you would be using tons of mp so your mp would go up just as an ex. But I just know that the game itself had lots of problems with the system. At anyrate that was an old game and the problems could be ironed out. If you played the game you would understand.

FFIX: Alot of people are speculating this because the makers of FFXIV had worked on FFIX. So what would this have to do with the JOB system which they did state was coming back in a way, aswell as no exp. But if you equip a weapon and kill mobs for points towards your spells that are on your gear selection you might as well call it EXP. So I cant personally see this working out. Though a variant would maybe work. (this is all just speculation based on the interviews.) Though this would support the argument of weapons supporting your characters growth.

Now a title that is no where close to a FF series but supports alot of the claims SE made about development of characters. (This is a long long long shot but may actually have validity.)

Monster Hunter: Okay if anyone has played this game you should already know what I am talking about. I am going to hit every point and explain where I am coming from.

Growth through Storyline: This game was all about questing for monsters and then using monster parts for crafting items to help you out weither it would be a weapon, armor, food, you name it. As you progress you run into more advanced recipes and hence forth better armor. There is also no EXP in this game.

Weapons playing a key roll: So since there is no exp in this game how do you develop as a character? Well the farther you get the better your resources are and the better your weapons and gear get. Weapons and Armor are what your stats are based off. Every piece of armor is a vital part of your characters stats and strategy. And hence forth playing a huge role in the game which supports the statements made by the interviewee. They still had different classes Gunner, Gunlance, Spears, Hammers, Hunting Horns, and your gear was directly associated with this.

One day you will maybe use one weapon and then the next day use a different one: The way I think this would work is that one day youll use the gear based towards your whm then then if you are fighting something that requires you to use a different style of play just switch gear and wammoo instant change! Just like in Monster hunter one weapon had a slight advantage over a certain monster and so forth.

Determining Player Abilites and LvLs: This also wouldnt be to hard just look at the gear and bam you got an idea of where that character stands.

This would also combat RMT because in Monster Hunter all your material was dropped by mobs. Or farmed/mined and they cant keep you from killing crap. Maybe Nms could drop rare material so you can get some better then average armor stats and weapon stats. Heck who knows I think it would be awesome.

This is basically hitting head on and without a doubt everything that was stated in the interviews. Weapons playing an intricate roll. Character development through your gear. No exp. Storyline being important. It all hits home. Now im not saying im right and this is what its gonnna be but its an example of what it could be.


So to narrow it down, according to you SE has transferred the XP, (aka level up) onto your gear and switching jobs onto what weapon you equip? The problem that arises here is that getting the gear, will that be based on drop rate? Or, as you said, taking parts from the mobs and craft them? How high should the drop rate be?

How long of a grinding will it take to get that item that will upgrade my character to the next level? What if the item drop rate is % then that means that my progression is based on luck and if someone is unlucky and don’t get the item or will get out rolled in parties he will not progress due to that ? Sound really fuc*ed up. Also if you make the gear drop rate 100%, that doesn’t solve the problem.

You need to have 2 systems for char development and item development. Have those 2 blend into each other will make the game a BIG fail in my eyes. Also sounds **** of a boring to me ;( I would have thought they would be a bit more original then that. As one often hears "Why reinvent the wheel, at least the part that works?”
#51 Jun 10 2009 at 12:55 AM Rating: Decent
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My theory is this new system will evolve not only weapons, but armor too. The pain in the **** macros we have to deal with in FFXI might be a thing of the past. If you can tweak your weapon the way you want, say a blm staff. However, it would be totally different if a MNK used it.

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