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Gear System IdeasFollow

#1 Jun 07 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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What do you want in regards to the gear system.

I would like to see a logical gear system:

Armor should be about it's Defensive Properties so each class of armor would be ranked in it's defense against the various types of damage, slashing, blunt, piercing and magic.

Plate Armor, Chain-mail, Scale-mail, Leather Armor, Cloth Armor.

Plate Armor would have the highest Defense rating against all physical attacks but the lowest against magic.

All Armor would have a listed weight, the total weight of the armor would be checked against your characters STR/VIT/AGI to see whether you can wear it or not. Weight will effect attack speed, evasion and agility.

All armor would be able to receive 1 permanent Inscribed Enchantment. All armor comes to the owner's procession without Stat Boosts other than defense bonuses or HP/MP bonuses. Through quest, mission rewards; item drops and crafting you can acquire scrolls of enchantment that you can apply to a chosen piece of armor.

Armor will also have 1 socket. The socket can be fitted with Crystals or Gems. Crystals provide temporary stat boosts of varying percentages, after a time the power imbued within the crystal fades. Gems are permanent versions of crystals that may enhance 1-3 stats at a time. The owner can swap the socket items at any time without losing the socket item.

This system gets away from cookie cutter Gear setups for Jobs because people are able to customize everything to suit their play style. Take this with a system where a character's base stats are developed by their own actions as opposed to arbitrarily set per Job/Race and player's are in control of their own performance. Player's pick the gear they like the looks of and customize it for themselves, instead of full out gear swapping you'll socket swap.

Instead of a Tiger dropping a pair of pants instead monsters would drop Powerful Gems or scrolls of enchantment. I never understood why a tiger had a pair of pants on it.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 7:16pm by kgav
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#2 Jun 07 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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kgav wrote:

Instead of a Tiger dropping a pair of pants instead monsters would drop Powerful Gems or scrolls of enchantment. I never understood why a tiger had a pair of pants on it.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 7:16pm by kgav


Why does the Tiger have a powerful crystal on it? Or why does it have a scroll for enchantment? I don't know about you, but I've never seen a tiger that could write.
I'm just poking fun, but if you are gonna use logic to determine drops you should be consistent. Your system has an incredible likeness to WoW's enchanting and gemming system. I don't want to see another WoW.

Edit: To be honest I'd rather have a Tiger drop some pants, than have to strip a goblin I just killed...

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 7:59pm by Mictam
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#3 Jun 07 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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Are you honestly trying to argue for realism in a game where midgets creating fire out of thin air is the norm?
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#4 Jun 07 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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a Tiger would drop a gem, beastmen could drop gems or scrolls of enchantment. Tiger would have the gem because it sensed it's power and swallowed it. The gem would be the source of it's power. A lot of games other than wow had these things.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 8:26pm by kgav

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 8:39pm by kgav
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#5 Jun 07 2009 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
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mmyes i know, i have no idea why these random animals are carrying 148 gil and a magic fire ring.
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#6 Jun 07 2009 at 7:58 PM Rating: Default
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Unfortunately no matter what a game maker does to allow customization, it won't last any longer then it takes for someone to create the optimal setup of equip for doing said job, then everyone else has to copy, because if you set up in a different manner, you won't be as efficient.

I am not saying I wouldn't love to see everyone be able to equip how they want and see many different ways of equiping yourself to do the same job as someone else who is equiped differently, but it's just not likely to happen sadly ;;
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#7 Jun 07 2009 at 8:50 PM Rating: Default
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Let's just have Materia slots and call it a win.
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#8 Jun 07 2009 at 9:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Let's just have Materia slots and call it a win.


Sir, that statement in itself is made of pure win. Find a spiffy looking piece of armour, and then hunt/craft/buy materia which you then "crystalize" onto your armour.
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#9 Jun 07 2009 at 9:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh and in before the 'That's just Jewelcrafting slots in WOW' argument.

Materia slots. They give new abilities or spells as well as stat upgrades.

For example:
'Materia: White Magic I' (Can only be equipped in a Staff lvl 1, Wand lvl 1, sword lvl 10) Grants the user the ability to cast 'Cure', 'Protect', 'Blindna', 'Poisona'

and combine it with other requirements like :

'Cure': Requires White magic skill of 1

'Protect': Requires White magic Skill of 7

'Blinda': Requires White Magic skill of 7

'Poisona': Requires White Magic skill of 8

Staff skill increases Magic potency skill, staff melee skill.


etc etc.



Just a thought.
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#10 Jun 07 2009 at 9:26 PM Rating: Default
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Yar, that makes even better sense; and would maybe become elemental related with all (eight?) elements being available. Also placing them onto your amour, for instance dark materia, would boost resistance to dark spells and also gives access to certain dark or black mage spells.
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#11 Jun 07 2009 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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The Materia idea still somewhat resembles systems already in place, but it stays true to the Final Fantasy aspect and I like it. Of course there's only so many ways to phrase "gemming" "socketing" "enchanting", "Crystallizing" stays true to the crystal theme FFXI had. It also creates a use for an item that was previously only required for crafting, making crystals an even more important part of the game's economy. The idea of learning spells through this process creates the possibility of some pretty wierd combinations. I would like to add that 'Materia' should have some of the same effect it had in FFVII: you would recieve a bonus to mp and magic attack values for equiping materia that granted magic abilities and you could recieve hp and attack bonuses from materia that granted physical abilities. Materia slots would be valued above all else in the economy, and the amazing amount of customization would allow an immense number of combinations. I assume they would have more than the normal materia seen in FFVII, PHYS DEF+, PHYS ATK+, obviously there would be the ability materia aswell granting the use of specific sword skills, or particular spells like shield bash. I'd have to say this equipment and upgrade system has some great potential, and even if it isn't what they use in FFXIV it is a system I hope is implemented in an MMO sometime.


Sorry for the wall of text. Excellent job Shazaamemt, who knew such a great system could come from such a simple statement.
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#12 Jun 07 2009 at 11:21 PM Rating: Default
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to the TC: sounds overly complex. not saying its not understandable, but i think thats focusig abit to much on something that should be stupid simple. not a BAD idea by any means. just not very FF imo. my first impression actually wasnt WoW...it was D&D. moment you started talking about weight and you being able to carry things based on strength and stuf i was like "oh, like D&D"

to the materia guy: dude...awesome idea with the materia. i dont see how they didnt put something like that in XI. i mean materia, spheres, crtystals, etc...they've been apart of FF since...like...forever. sure XI's story was based around a powerful sentient jewel. and our spawn points were crystals..but we had little diret interaction and ability to use crystals apart from crafting. surely there will be crystals or something in this game, and i hope they make a bigger day to day deal about it. if you skip the intro and dont pay attention to quests beyond objectives and rewards, crystals had seemingly little significance. i want their importance to be unmissable, and using the for abilities and armor customazation is a great way to do it
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#13 Jun 08 2009 at 1:32 AM Rating: Default
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Thanks for the kudos.

Maybe I will make a thread for the materia/weapon/armor system and see if anyone else thinks it doesn't suck.
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#14 Jun 08 2009 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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I want more leveling armor, like Trump crown, variable cape, multiple ring etc.

Elemental resistances which mean something, not +1 wind resistance when anything under 60 makes no difference.
For the Tiger pants example, maybe have the tiger drop oh i dunno, a Hide? That hide is Traded to an NPC as a quest with the pants as a reward. Thats more realistic then a tiger carring pants/gems around.

Beastmen, sure, they are intelligent enough to have scrolls, armor, even weapons. Also, allow (if there are beastmen) for them to Drop the weapons they are useing for us to sell XD. I don;t care if they sell for 1 gil each, they have them, they drop them when they die, why can;t we pick them up XD. Likewise, if they add useable ammo, the ability to find arrows/bolts and throwing items and reuse them. Not all that we use, but some, perhaps the ones we missed the mob with.

I just hope the "level" stsyem is not like that of FF4, where every time you took HP damage you had a shot at gaining Hp, and every time you used Mp, you had a shot at gaining Mp, god that sucked.
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#15 Jun 08 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I really like the idea of learning skills and such from weapons and armor. I liked the system in both FF7 and FF9 in that regard. However, to put that into an MMO would require a little re-thinking. If they are doing the job system, certain abilities would have to be restricted to certain jobs.

Regardless, I am very curious to see how it all rolls out :)
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#16 Jun 08 2009 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Bump.

Just because this is one of the few threads on the forum actually discussing potential systems and theories without devolving into a flame thread between players of multiple MMOs.

Materia slots?

Armor that levels instead of the character leveling?

Skill leveling that involves using certain armors or weapons as well as a certain job?

I would love to read about the other ideas out there. It seems that so far these ideas (including my own) are all focused on the Final Fantasy series. Which is fine since FFXIV will be a numbered Final Fantasy title. What systems can be adapted from other MMOs and made to feel like a true Final Fantasy?


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#17 Jun 08 2009 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Forgot to say the main reason I think this thread is important.

It is because the developers hinted that GEAR will play a major role in how a character develops and changes in the world.
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#18 Jun 08 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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kgav wrote:
Armor should be about it's Defensive Properties so each class of armor would be ranked in it's defense against the various types of damage, slashing, blunt, piercing and magic.

Plate Armor, Chain-mail, Scale-mail, Leather Armor, Cloth Armor.

Perhaps it's just the D&D player in me, but I believe scale is generally considered tougher than chain armor/
kgav wrote:
Plate Armor would have the highest Defense rating against all physical attacks but the lowest against magic.

Could be a problem for tanks when they have to go up against caster mobs.
kgav wrote:
All Armor would have a listed weight, the total weight of the armor would be checked against your characters STR/VIT/AGI to see whether you can wear it or not. Weight will effect attack speed, evasion and agility.

This I hate. It's an RP rather than game inspired system, which tends to create problems in a system primarily designed for gaming and not RP.
kgav wrote:
All armor would be able to receive 1 permanent Inscribed Enchantment. All armor comes to the owner's procession without Stat Boosts other than defense bonuses or HP/MP bonuses. Through quest, mission rewards; item drops and crafting you can acquire scrolls of enchantment that you can apply to a chosen piece of armor.

I also really dislike this. Armor with primarily one attribute "armor," is rather boring equipment. Everyone a specific class--however classes are implemented--will use the same piece of armor, which is the piece with the most defense they can equip.
kgav wrote:
This system gets away from cookie cutter Gear setups for Jobs because people are able to customize everything to suit their play style.

It leads to even more cookie cutter gear selection. If every piece of armor has only 1 attribute slot, so that the only difference between them is defensive value, then everyone will simply wear the highest defensive value item he/she can.

Why would a paladin wear "Steel plate armor" with 35 defense and 1 enchantment slot, when he could wear "Tungsten plate armor" with 37 defense and 1 enchantment slot. It makes choosing gear trivial, and makes gear entirely uninteresting to have. You might as well give characters' base defensive skill that levels up with them instead of armor, since there is no reason to choose armor.



I see gear as yet another way to grow and develop one's character. Gear needs to provide players will nontrivial choices and complex opportunity costs. If all gear simply boils down to a system of "this piece of gear is always better than this other piece of gear," the game becomes boring.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 11:20pm by Allegory
#19 Jun 08 2009 at 8:21 PM Rating: Default
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What the **** Allegory.

It isn't about blasting other people's ideas, it is about presenting your own.

You started off by saying Scale is tougher than chain.

GIVE AN IDEA ABOUT WHAT THE GEAR SYSTEM COULD BE, OR PLEASE DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD. If you disagree with someone's idea, then give a better example of how it could be implemented.

**** you and your negativity.
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#20 Jun 08 2009 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
GIVE AN IDEA ABOUT WHAT THE GEAR SYSTEM COULD BE, OR PLEASE DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD. If you disagree with someone's idea, then give a better example of how it could be implemented.

I did. If you actually bothered to read my post rather than skim it for confirmation bias, then you would see I gave my opinion on what gear should be, a way to grow and develop a character. Gear should present nontrivial choices. Gear needs to have complex opportunity costs.
********************** you and your negativity.[/quote]
Just because I don't go around saying every post is "the best idea ever," doesn't mean I'm being negative. What kind of world do you live in wear any sort of dissent is automatically negative?

"So I think we should spend the entire company's budget on tinfoil hats."
"Sir, don't you think we might need to budget in SG&A, cost of goods sold, and R&D?"
"Tim, stop being so negative. You're fired."

I'm being critical of his idea. Mature adults can accept the notion that their idea may not be the best thing since sliced bread and discuss the benefits, drawbacks, and possible solutions to those problems in a calm and intelligent manner. He asked "What do you want in regards to the gear system?" and I gave him an honest answer. I explained my reasons thoroughly, and he is free to point out where I have made an error or how my view on gear is a bad perspective on the situation.

When I post an idea on a message board asking for people's opinions on the subject I'm not expecting a hoard of yes men to say "That's great." I want honest, helpful feedback. I gave kgav exactly what I would want anyone to give me had I made this thread.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 1:11am by Allegory
#21 Jun 08 2009 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
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@kgav:
My apologies for not initially giving you a salute for starting the thread (I was about to get ready for work and just wanted to post a couple quick replies on this interesting thread). I can understand your idea of the enchantment idea (reminded me of a couple other mmorpgs that have something slightly similiar); but when Shazaamemt brought the suggestion of the materia thing, it was like a lightbulb moment. This is because we all know that Materia is soooooo traditional to final fantasy that it will be almost a sacrilage for SE not to add it in ffxiv. All the same, solid excellent thread and I'll definitely be reading more if it continues.

@Shazaamemt:
Heya again, and can you please check your PMs when you get a moment? Much thx. Personally, I still like the materia slots thing and now that I'm not in a hurry to drive off to work, I can actually let my mind tick. Lets start with the first clue about SE saying there's no experience point leveling. Which (as we've all been heavily speculating for the last five days) means our characters' development is through weapons and very possibly our armour.

Now here's the kicker: What will be awesome is if you hunt/craft/buy materia that you add onto your "low level" armour which has slots (maybe it has just ONE or TWO slots because it's a lower grade of armour); and it turns out that the materia are removable. Yep, REMOVABLE. Which means, as you progress and gradually find or buy better spiffy looking armour, they contain several more empty slots (with maybe the highest level armour having, say, EIGHT empty slots for all eight types of materia?). You can then remove your precious materia from your old armour (and yes, in the final fantasy universe materia have always been precious) and add it to your new armour. And what if it's the same for weapons?

Just food for thought and I'll apologize in advance if someone points me to a thread where this idea has already been suggested, cuz I'd really like to discuss/speculate on this kinda system.

And here's yet another wild idea that just popped right this moment (yeah, another lightbulb moment): What if the armour system is done in the form of the ffxii licencing board? Say we get some kind of "points/score" units from hunting stuff, missions, quests, etc; and the more (skillchains?) we do with our weapons, the higher the amount of "points" you can earn. You then in turn spend these points on YOUR very own personal licencing board (unique to each player) that gradually unlocks more and more armour/weapon (and even materia?) options as you continue your life in Eorzea. And as you open up better looking armour with better stats etc (which you "enhance" with materia), you are also unlocking weapons, summons (or espers?), skills, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Dunno... my mind is still trying to find logic on this but it kinda worked exceeding well in ffxii (where the player earned LP or "licence points"). Again, I'll humbly say if this has been suggested already on another thread, I'd be happy to continue this discussion there as well. Methinks the materia thingy is still a very feasible idea as far as armours is concerned but a licencing board idea also has me thinking.

Again, just food for thought.


Edited, Jun 9th 2009 2:19am by LeoTarvion
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#22 Jun 09 2009 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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FFXI was my first Final Fantasy game and also my first MMO. I played Diablos 2, I like the rune thing in it. I'll have to look up this Materia thing, honestly I don't know what it is.

I think I really want a flexible gear system in FFXIV that allows the player to customize the gear more. Se's emphasis on developing your character really makes me think your actions will be the primary way to increase your stats and not gear as much. Only time will tell.

I really hope anyone who has an idea on a way to implement a gear system posts their idea. Hopefully SE takes a peak and finds some inspiration.
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#23 Jun 09 2009 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I think no matter what system FFXIV implements, it will probably be a more complex one than most MMOs have.

I like the idea of having points earned by the equipment you use, and then those points being spent on abilities. Perhaps if you use a shield that is level 1 you earn 1 point per shield block to spend in defensive abilities. (or using a swd of level 1 you earn one defensive point to spend per parry). Then with a level 10 shield equipped (or level 10 sword for parry) you will earn 2 points towards your defensive skill per shield block.

Most likely it would be more like .1 or .2 points towards defensive skill (Respectively speaking towards the lvl 1 or lvl 10 weapons), just because that would extend the life of a MMO. As you earn defensive skill points you can spend them in the defensive skill talent board available to all players. So you could either get a parry +1 stat for 2 points or a shield block +1 stat for 1 talent point. The parry stat would lead into a defensive weapon skill eventually, and the shield block stat would lead into Shield Mastery and Shield Bash etc.

The idea being that if you were a melee class who wanted to get another weaponskill and enhance melee, your defensive points wouldn't be wasted. If you wanted to be a tank ultimately, you could spend those points partially in parry and block in order to raise your defensive abilities.

There would still need to be a system similar to my previously mentioned 'Materia system' (I use quotes because it doesn't have to be materia, just using a concept familiar to most the forum readers). By saying similar I mean that any system would still have to allow for a certain job type.

Like you can't equip a shield or sword unless you are a certain job type, like a warrior. paladin, redmage, whitemage, or dark knight could equip a shield and sword, but only a warrior or paladin would be likely to. The defensive stat obtained by a non-shield equipping player would be the parry stat (rare) or the dodge stat (more readily earnable, but still low). The dodge stat earned would be better placed by casters in +evasion on the board as opposed to spent on abilities like 'hide' or 'steal'.

Just another idea for equipment affecting character growth like my previously posted materia system.

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#24 Jun 09 2009 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, I want to see armor along the lines of what we see in other RPGs/MMOs; different pieces of armor are intended to suit certain purposes/roles. I'd like to see a robust system that allows further augmentation of armor for that extra layer of diversity.

As for weapons, I want to see well...weapons. Swords, axes, daggers, staves, wands, pointy sticks, I don't care. I want to see weapons that augment stats that support the roles for which that weapon is most useful (with plenty of diversity to account for different playstyles that might evolve while using a particular kind of weapon). I want to see different weapon types impact the availability and/or effectiveness of different kinds of abilities. I'd rather not see a system where you have to equip a certain weapon to learn a certain spell/ability, or have to socket a weapon with a certain item to learn a certain spell/ability. I think that would detract from the "natural" aspect that SE has mentioned.

I'd rather see players be given access to different categories of spells/abilities via NPC purchase and/or quest reward and/or direct development and develop those abilities (to possibly include learning new abilities within the same category) as those spells/abilities are used. Those categories could be the mechanic that resembles the job system ie. Black Magic, White Magic, Legerdemain, Summoning Magic, Music, Dancing, Fiend Affinity (think BLU), Fiend Handler (think BST), Defense, etc. Similar categories might exist for physical dps roles but would be based more on proficiency with certain types of weapons, perhaps with the option to equip certain types of weapons being earned in the same way that you'd earn the option to use certain categories of magic.

I know that went beyond just what I want to see in gear, but I figured that if I was going to go the anti-AP/anti-materia route, I should at least elaborate on an alternative ;D
#25 Jun 10 2009 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I know that went beyond just what I want to see in gear, but I figured that if I was going to go the anti-AP/anti-materia route, I should at least elaborate on an alternative ;D


Thank you, I like hearing alternatives.

I still think this is one of the better threads out there on what could actually be a possible system for equipment and gameplay.
Please post if you have an idea on it.
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#26 Jun 10 2009 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
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So for an example of gameplay Aurelius,

With your system would it be that 'Pointy Stick A ( a mage pointy stick) lvl 1: gives better enhancement to healing and enhance spells, MP+10' and 'Pointy Stick B (a warrior pointy stick) lvl 1: Gives an additional +10 attack, gives +2 damage to each attack'?

Quote:
I want to see different weapon types impact the availability and/or effectiveness of different kinds of abilities.


Ok, certain weapons impacting the availability of abilities.

Quote:
I'd rather not see a system where you have to equip a certain weapon to learn a certain spell/ability


Ok, so the learning of a certain ability would not be pertained to the weapon.

You said that availability of abilities should be through the weapon (theoretically), but the learning of said ability should be through a NPC trainer. This seems very similar to how the endgame Weapon Skills were learned in FFXI.

Is your idea that you can buy all abilities at a NPC for a price, then get the weapon and use said abilities as long as you have that weapon equipped?

It's an interesting idea, but I would like to hear more about how it could be fleshed out into practice. How would a system not relying on the weapon to gain skills, but still relying on the weapon to use skills play out? It really sounds like a viable system to me, I just want to see if anyone can come up with a theoretical gameplay system for it.

And where does character progression play a role in this? Is it through the NPCs? If so, when should the NPCs offer you the skills for the weapons? Is it at a certain weapon skill? Are there even weapon skillpoints?

Please, anyone reading this thread, take the ball and run with it.
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#27 Jun 10 2009 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Going off of their hint that weapons will play a big part with your character they could have the weapon be tied to your character in a more spiritual sense. Like have the weapon evolve and change depending on how you use it and what skills you choose to work on.

Just a underdeveloped thought I figure I'd through out there.
#28 Jun 10 2009 at 12:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh, and I am fully in favor of using the term 'Pointy Stick' for any random weapon you end up talking about.

Maybe by the time FFXIV launches and we are all talking weapons it will be the commonplace term.

LMAO, seriously.
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#29 Jun 10 2009 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
So for an example of gameplay Aurelius,

With your system would it be that 'Pointy Stick A ( a mage pointy stick) lvl 1: gives better enhancement to healing and enhance spells, MP+10' and 'Pointy Stick B (a warrior pointy stick) lvl 1: Gives an additional +10 attack, gives +2 damage to each attack'?

Quote:
I want to see different weapon types impact the availability and/or effectiveness of different kinds of abilities.


Ok, certain weapons impacting the availability of abilities.


Right, so (as an example) if you've developed your character to have certain defensive abilities as well as a bunch of offensive and healing magic and Fiend Affinity, equipping a 2h axe might reduce the effectiveness or restrict the use of some/all of your defensive abilities, fully restrict access to offensive magic, reduce the effectiveness of white magic, and have no effect on (or possibly increase the effect of) fiend affinity.

Quote:
Quote:
I'd rather not see a system where you have to equip a certain weapon to learn a certain spell/ability


Ok, so the learning of a certain ability would not be pertained to the weapon.


I could see an idea that is similar to the way FFXI works now with your skill with a weapon determining what weapon skills you have access to, but spells/abilities would be learned as you use the spells/abilities you already have within a particular category. I could also see it if certain spells and abilities could only be learned as part of a quest reward or something that you pay an NPC to learn either via a scroll or as an explicit training fee. But to use an example, let's say you enable White Magic category on your character. After you've used Cure a certain number of times (with a variety of scalars and a touch of randomness), you might learn Dia. Keep using Cure and/or Dia and you might learn Protect. That sort of thing. You're becoming more skilled and learning more about white magic by practicing the white magic you already know.

Quote:
Is your idea that you can buy all abilities at a NPC for a price, then get the weapon and use said abilities as long as you have that weapon equipped?


No, I just threw in the NPC purchase option as an augment to learning everything as you practice the abilities you use within a specific category. The weapon restrictions/enhancements are simply to prevent a case where you get an uber hybrid tank wielding a scythe and spamming debuffs and heavy nukes while healing themselves and/or their party and unloading some swanky weapon skills because they've learned everything and there are no restrictions on the use of what they've learned. Ergo, you might have devoloped your character so that it's capable of tanking, healing, and filling a support and/or dps role, but you might equip a sword and shield to tank one day, a stave to heal the next day, and a 2h weapon to dps the day after that because of the way the different weapons impact your access to/effectiveness of the abilities you've learned.

Quote:
It's an interesting idea, but I would like to hear more about how it could be fleshed out into practice. How would a system not relying on the weapon to gain skills, but still relying on the weapon to use skills play out? It really sounds like a viable system to me, I just want to see if anyone can come up with a theoretical gameplay system for it.


Similar to above. Certain weapons (ie. stave for casters) might allow them to increase their skill with magic faster than, say, a 2h sword but even someone with a 2h sword could develop their white magic skill if they spam enough white magic. Where the real factor comes in is that weapons would traditional augment certain stats that made sense for a particular class, so a healer might prefer a stave that augments stats suited to casting (ie. WIS, MP, etc.) where a melee dps might prefer a 2h weapon that augments stats suited to melee dps (ie. STR, Acc, etc.), but more than that, equipping a stave of any kind might increase your effectiveness with white magic by a certain percent and reduce the effectiveness of weapon kills by a certain %, where a 2h weapon (depending on type) might increase effectiveness of weapon skills and certain other ability categories and decrease the effectiveness of magic.


Edited, Jun 10th 2009 8:59am by AureliusSir
#30 Jun 10 2009 at 8:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Another very well thought out and perfectly implementable system in this thread.

Honestly at this point I am getting excited to play any of the systems listed thus far. I hope other developers are reading this thread if SE passes it by. :P

And another BUMP, because it is just such a good thread.
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#31 Jun 10 2009 at 11:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah Shazaamemt, here's another shameless BUMP cuz I just caught up with the thread and read thru AureliusSir's stuff: all I can say is two thumbs up. xD
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#32 Jun 10 2009 at 11:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd really like some slightly materia-inspired systems, and generally things that give your equipment flexibility. How complex or simple they make the statistical quandaries of the actual pieces, well, I don't much mind one way or the other.

What I do want, nay, DEMAND! (Though I have no authority to demand anything at all, really.) I demand a system that allows for much better control over your character's appearance and a much better range of options to individualize oneself, and I do feel like this is important to note in discussion on gear because it's relevant: systems that do this also have to stay balanced with the statistical side of things.

Dyes (with multiple dye areas for each article) would be awesome; even better would be the ability to pick and choose from armors I have based on their appearance alone without statistical losses. Basically: if I like my Iron Plate more than the new, higher DEF Subligar, there should be something in place so that I can wear the former and have the DEF of the latter.

(Or, also possible, a system where those stats wouldn't even come from visible items, but things like Relics and Accessories so that you could freely choose between those armors as they don't affect stats after all.)

My main two ideas for this are...

- Being able to overwrite the stats of one item with the stats of another. (Or the appearance of one item with the appearance of another.) How? When you buy your shiny new, but hideously thigh-tastic, Subligar, you can spend another 20 gil to demolish it into a "Soul Materia" that basically is simply the statistical side of the armor. You then Use this "Subligar Soul Materia" on your Iron Plate and BAM! You've got what looks like Iron Plate on your character, but is actually identical to that there Subligar when it comes time to decide damage.

- An optional "costume" layer that does not contribute statistically. How? Don't like wearing Subligar man-panties, do like your old Iron Plate? Simply put the Subligar on, then put the Iron Plate back on in the "costume" slot. You don't get any benefits from the Iron Plate, (and it's kind of illogical to be wearing two sets of armor? Not that this is a terribly logical game) it now just appears that you're wearing it from the outside.

Well, no matter how the statistical side pans out, I'm also hoping for dyes, a large number of pieces to choose from as well as a number of different body slots, maybe the ability to do a "decal" on your armor (in putting a symbol of your choice somewhere on it), and, hey, if we're talking to Santa here, I wouldn't mind having a few "accent" options like paying extra for spikes, feathers, bolts, whatever.

Having an individualized character increases player attachment, and ultimately makes a player more likely to continue playing and enjoy their playtime, so I hope they don't overlook this aspect of the game.

PS. The classic, every-MMO system of "Here's your best armor for being a level 20 Warrior, now you look like every other level 20 Warrior in the game" is terrible. Please, Final Fantasy Gods (developers), don't fall into this trap of poor design again.
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#33 Jun 11 2009 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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What do I want to see? I want something original. Something never done before. Like... Armor is your level.

Let me explain a little. You're walking around with your great sword of slapping hitting lvl 1 Grumplesnorks for 1 damage and one of them drops a Helm of donthitme. Equiping this item gives you Agi +2. You are now more evasive and the Grumplesnorks will very rarely hit you. Now you can move further into the world and start killing the lvl 2 Dreeperpops which may drop a great axe of bruising... Until you are standing on the corpses of the great and mighty World Devourer Dragon wearing your Full Plate Mail of Uber-Pwnage-and-Not-Get-Hit-But-Take-Little-Damage-If-You-Do, but if you go back to the level 1 Grumplesnorks wearing only your great sword of slapping you will still hit them for only 1 damage.

This will almsot surely never happen since it would be way too easy to "PL" someone to uber levels just by having them tag along on a high level mob run. But I think it would be pretty cool if they could implement it.
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#34 Jun 11 2009 at 6:16 AM Rating: Good
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I would honestly prefer if they did away with the bag space concept entirely, and adopt a simple Weight system, like Ragnarok Online or something.

A basically weight fraction, increased by strength, with heavy armors weighing more, always seems to work nice.

Bonus points if they let you exceed the weight system if you get too much loot or something, but the game starts to penalize your runspeed or combat effeciancy until you unload some of it. Thus allowing you to overfill your bags temporarially if you need to (like in towns while working with your moghouse and auction house).
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#35 Jun 11 2009 at 6:36 AM Rating: Default
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IAmAnsel wrote:

This will almsot surely never happen since it would be way too easy to "PL" someone to uber levels just by having them tag along on a high level mob run. But I think it would be pretty cool if they could implement it.


There are ways to prevent that "PL" that you described but I’m not going into the details since the whole concept in itself was bad ;D
#36 Jun 11 2009 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd love to see a very diverse range of items, no matter what the system. I'm not a huge fan of WoW's system, but one thing it does have going is there's hundreds of items for each slot, and it really allows you to pick what you want to enhance about your character.

A couple things I'd really like to see in the item system is the ability to customize the look of your item, as well as customize the points it gives your character. I think an interesting (and pretty basic) concept would be to have certain items address certain character traits. An example:

You find a shield. Shields would address the following traits: armor, blocking, vitality. The shield you got is pretty good, so it has 20 points to spread around in these 3 areas. The player can spread them any way he wishes, and reset them at will. Newer/better pieces simply have more points to spend. In each tier of items, you have a ton of options looks wise. The "best" items simply have the most points.

I think this system would really cater to the "choose your own play style" motif the game has going on right now. Are you a reckless front-line fighter? Put those points into blocking. Are you often a main tank? Split the points between armor and vitality.

Just a thought.
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#37 Jun 11 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Well my idea for what SE might use in my opinion, When they told us there won't be any lvls or exp and that the game will be more of the growth of the players thu questing, missions and i'm thinking monsters. which makes me think will make the progression in ether two type of ideas. First being if they go thru progression in terms of fighting. some of the guys here that posted good elements of using materia whic can be incorporated as well. But i think progression will be in terms of like a tree in which so they can still use the job format like they said they will do but in a different way is that when you start off with light,heavy,and cloak(or any-type you want to think would work for the jobs that will be in the game)all with there respected def suited for that armor type. But with the drawbacks and advantages being Ex: heavy having higher def then another but lower magic resist and slows you down(reaction time and such).Then you start off with one type of job specific weapon and with its weapon skill(ws) im not gonna go thru them all so lol.Now that i have a basis let me elaborate how this will work after that how this is going to work is as you guys start off in the game you get the choice while questing, missions and fighting. Let say you want to be a rdm or how you will be qualified as a rdm. When you start off with sword and light armor. So as your questing, missioning and fighting you use spells and weapon skill as such like cure(whm),fire(blm) and use weapons skill that fit under the one handed swords tree and as you use these you'll gain a new branch of spell and ws towards this type of rdm mage job and tend to lose other spells and ws as-well as losing and gaining accesses to new armor spell and weapons you can buy(at this point i just remembered the fact they want to incorporate "pick up one weapon this day and do this"). Therefore as you play you gain new spells and weapons you can buy and further the rdm job. Then when you want to back track and go for another job you just have to sart of with the a beginner weapon of another job and progress with that job type and as for spells cloak and better choices of mage specific spells will be lock but available for that job type as you progress.
-
The other way they might lean towards well let me get back on that one when i think of a better way lol....

ps. sorry if it hard to understand o.o
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#38 Jun 11 2009 at 10:04 PM Rating: Default
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Yeah, it was a little hard to understand.

Mostly because of the 'Wall of text'

So how will spells and abilities be learned in that system? Are they available on the armour you wear, or purchasable from a NPC, or a combo of learned from a NPC/World drops?

I would like to see more elaboration on the systems already named, as well as new systems.

I don't have one at the moment, but probably should think of one come tommorow, I am tired right now.

So this post serves as another shameless bump for a thread that deserves reading and discussion.
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#39 Jun 11 2009 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm looking forward to the growth through weapons.
Though as someone in one of the other threads pointed out, they need a way to control which skills are accesible to all "classes" while making others exclusive.

Like Treasure Hunter 1.0 would be available to all, but II, III, IV would all be exclusive to those that excel in the "Thief" line of things. While it may define you into a class, it also rewards those that have pursued a specific role.

maybe a key item, and a dagger that says: Needs Key Item: xxxxxx for TH II

----OR-----

While you may learn every skill, things are done like BLU, where you have points, and each skill costs x ammount to equip and activate on your character?
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#40 Jun 11 2009 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Unfortunately no matter what a game maker does to allow customization, it won't last any longer then it takes for someone to create the optimal setup of equip for doing said job, then everyone else has to copy, because if you set up in a different manner, you won't be as efficient.


Quoted for untruth. First and foremost, figuring this out, even in an airtight game, generally takes a good bit of time on its own. Then you can't account for adjustments and new content. There's a saying, ********** is situational." While one setup might be .05% more efficient when all is said and done, you can easily have 100 different circumstances where entirely different setups are ideal. Even now in FFXI, there isn't consensus on what is optimal in virtually any GIVEN situation, let alone accounting for all POTENTIAL situations. Rarely is balance that finely tuned, but the more customization you allow for and the more unique different combat circumstances are, the less possible it becomes to narrow down an optimal setup.

As for gear system ideas, I have one that would probably be too taxing to implement, but might as well put it out there for prosperity. Essentially weapons and armor that exist in the game are very few. The majority of weapons and armor are designed by players. Players create their own weapon and armor templates to certain character models, and they can save these templates. Then raw materials are applied to these templates. The raw materials used and to a large extent the weapon design determine the stats.

So larger weapons made of heavier materials are generally going to hit harder but proportionately will take longer to swing (groundbreaking concept, I know), and there would also be different types of damage based on the "head" of the weapon. This was designed for a more action-ish combat MMO so even the moves that one uses with their weapon vary the type of damage created. Technically this is probably impossible right now because it requires all weapon designs and specs to be uploaded to the server and then downloaded by each client, which would be incredibly high-spec. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, it should be doable on a smaller scale I think, where only the visual data is being shared and there aren't a million different weapons to account for.

So at the very least you can have "crafters" (who are really more like graphic artists) to make equipment to your specs. And if you see something you like, you can get them to apply that template to some materials for you and make you one for yourself.

This comes at the sacrifice of a great deal of weapon customization. I mean you should see the menu I laid out. For example, you can pretty much take any kind of metal thing, be it blade, scythe, ball, whatever, and attach it to any either end of a stick, and you can design that however you like. Most weapons you can conceive of can be custom made and the design would affect their function in battle. What you'd have instead are limited general equipment templates that left you doing reskins of preloaded equipment, and your options on the reskinning would be somewhat limited as well. I'm not sure at what resolution you could reasonably make custom skins. The materials you used would still influence stats, too.

But raw materials would generally come from where you'd think they'd come from. Monsters always drop their body parts (no farming for Dragon Skulls-- you kill one, you get it), but the really good parts are going to be really challenging battles that you can expect to lose. Mining, harvesting, etc... those are separate minigames.

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#41 Jun 11 2009 at 10:33 PM Rating: Default
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That is interesting, and certainly leads to a customized character development.

Blu skill points applied across the board to a character.

So at what point would you gain more points to spend on your character given a 'no levels' system?Perhaps through your gear that gives you points to spend based on the gear? In that case having a bronze harness versus an adamantite harness would give you either 2 skill points for abilities or 10 skill points?
That sounds like a difficult system to maintain, so scrap that one.

How about you can pick a job and your gear, and depending on what job you have (and your skill levels) you can spend points in anything or in job-specific abilities.

IE: your job is Paladin, you get a bonus to spending your points in defensive, sword, or white magic abilities.
You could still equip 'Steal' or 'Stealth' from your thief ability pool, but it would cost you more points. Whereas spending your points in the white magic pool would cost no additional points, and all defensive abilities (like 'Cover' or 'Provoke' would be available at a discount to points since PLD is your class). You keep your earned points and abilities, and would be able to respend (and hopefully save) them upon switching classes.

The points available would be set to your Job and skill level. (Ie a white magic skill of 75 would open up 75 available skill points, but a PLD would only be able to use 50 of them, whereas a WHM job base would not only be able to use all 75 points in white magic, or use those points in any other magic class, albeit with a point loss)

This system is probably too confusing. I know I wouldn't want to play it as I have written it.
Maybe someone has a refinement of it.
I still think the best ideas thus far are the ones on the first page, and from the OP through Aurelius's first post.
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#42 Jun 11 2009 at 10:45 PM Rating: Decent
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@Shazaamemt -

the way i'm thinking, your armor would supply you with "Job Points" or some such thing. Maybe for every skill you learn, you gain a JP or something? Now to keep things fair, all armor available at skill level x, would supply the same JP, but not the same abilities. this would prevent "cookie cutter" gear set ups, since all gear for skill level x offers, say. 10 points for a chest piece, it's just a matter of getting the piece with the ability that suits your game play, and learning it in/before a party.

Below example is going off my original idea based on JP being granted through the armor you have equiped.

example:
Your armor grants you a total of 15 skill points
White Magic, uses 4 points.
Red Magic (Enfeebling) uses 4 points.
Auto Refresh takes up 2 points
Divine Seal-like Ability takes up 3 points.
MP+40 takes up 2 points


because you're going into a party situation, the White Mage chooses to take a "Sub-skill" of Red Magic. While adding on an ability similar to Divine Seal, Auto Refresh, and MP+40 takes up the rest of their skill points available.

this in essence would allow for complete customization of your abilities, while allowing people to still play "paladin" "dark knight" or whatever.


This would allow for custom "classes" in a way, and while your character grows, more points become available.


In refrence to your reply on the other thread -

with the above example, i didn't include a specific Weapon skill ability. so let me put this example here

"Paladin"
JP granted through armor worn: 15
Provoke - 1 point
White magic - 4 points
Defense Bonus - 3 points
Sword Weapon Skills - 2 points
Defense Boost - 3 points
Shield Bash - 2 points


this way, while Weapons still say what moves they offer to the user, you must have the equiped "Weapon Skill" catagory to use said skill, since it would relate to the weapon equiped anyway.

Though how they would show 0/x for the skill offered, is a different story.


Edited, Jun 12th 2009 2:56am by Naeo

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 2:59am by Naeo
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#43 Jun 11 2009 at 10:57 PM Rating: Default
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I like the idea !

But according to this, how would new spells or abilites become available?

Say you spend the points to have white magic available, does that mean you instantly have access to all white magic?

Are there different levels of white magic . IE 'white magic 1: 4 skill points' 'White magic 2: 6 skill points'. After all, it would end up being cheap in endgame if you could equip all white magic spells for the same cost as equipping 'cure I'.

And at what point do you learn new skills or spells?

Do you gain skill levels for casting the spells or using abilities?

SE said that the Job system will still appear in FFXIV, and I think the artwork provided thus far has confirmed that jobs will be in the new game.
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#44 Jun 11 2009 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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basically this is all just pure speculation on the growth system on my behalf.
and the White Magic - 4 points is just to have the white magic list available to you.
You'd still have to use whatever method SE supplies to learn your spells

I'm guessing through Staves / Wands magic would be learned

Like these two examples:

Onion Staff
Skill lv. 0
*White Magic 0/50
*Cure 0/150
*Dia 0/100

Oak Staff
Skill Level 10
*Cure II 0/150
*Barfira 0/100
*Magic Defense Bonus 0/200(250?)

the Onion staff would Unlock the ability to utilize White Magic, but you would still have to Skill up your staff skill to learn Cure II, III, so on and so forth.
As well as learning Job traits through weapons, or armor. just for this example, i tossed it on the Oak Staff to kinda make the illustration i was trying to get across =]


Ofcourse, for my "Class" examples, they'd have to make it where you can only switch around what you've spent your JP on at a MH or whatever they make in lieu of Mog Houses to prevent people from changing mid fight.

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 3:07am by Naeo

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 3:14am by Naeo
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#45 Jun 11 2009 at 11:22 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's important to take into consideration the restrictions that would be placed on the use of spells/abilities by the combat mechanics themselves. This, of course, operates on the assumption that class roles will remain as a component of grouping in FFXIV (and personally, I'd be disappointed if they didn't...there's little room for the "cerebral" aspect SE mentioned when group combat is a free-for-all).

Let's say you are playing the role of a tank. Within that role, your responsibilities are to survive and to hold the attention of active monsters that are attacking your group. You may have access to all kinds of summons and heavy offensive magic and enfeebles etc., but how do those abilities fit with your role? If you've got abilities that produce little threat and use those instead of high threat abilities, you could be finding yourself scrambling to regain control of the monsters you're supposed to be tanking. If you're trying to unload big nukes and the mobs smacking you are interrupting or delaying your casts, you're not building threat. If you're gearing in such a way as to enable dps (physical or magical), what impact is that having on your survivability?

The interesting thing about the system (continuing with the tank example) is that there have always been fast/instant cast abilities that generated high threat but that tanks typically did not get access to because of job/subjob limitations. So maybe enfeebles (or at least, certain enfeebles) are fast/instant cast. They could be a highly effective addition to a threat rotation and add a lot of flavor and diversity to the role. It would make it beneficial for everyone to learn a little bit about everything, learn about what other players are doing, and incorporate more of their own style and interests into their role instead of working from a handful of "standard" options.

Let's look at another example based on role. What do you think your party is going to say if you join a group to heal and the group wipes because you got overzealous trying to dps and you let the tank die? If you're gearing for dps, are you going to be able to put out enough healing to get the job done? Is your dps going to be worth investing a lot of time on in that group if you've geared to heal? On one hand, if you've got a well geared tank who is holding their own and you do have time to toss a nuke or a smack in, a more diverse development system means you might be more effective in an "occasional dps" capacity than a standard healer in most MMOs these days, but you're still ultimately restricted based on your role in the group, the gear you've selected, and the combat mechanics.

Lastly, take a look at a dps example. It may be hard to gear for effective physical and magic damage output, but not impossible. If you want to do the physical dps + enfeebles (ala DRK), that's an option. You can pick your gear to suit that role, but the itemization you put towards physical dps by default is itemization that isn't going to help you toss big nukes. Same for caster-heavy builds. You may have a decent skill with melee weapons, but what impact is a weapon that augments physical dps stats going to have on your casting, and is it worth it to cut your magic damage output (your mainstay) by 10-20% for the sake of increasing your physical dps by 5-10%?

Those kinds of restrictions fit with the "natural" style, where the restrictions in place make sense without imposing arbitrary restrictions along a linear scale.
#46 Jun 11 2009 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Assuming that SE's growth system works out in any way shape or form in the way we're speculatiing, there's going to be alot of "Party do you need it?"
"yes"
"What abilities do you have, and what role do you wish to play"


if you don't have abilities / a role that meshes with the current party, then it'll probably wind up being solo land.


Though by any example, they should include within the /search function some way to see what people have as their "main" and "sub" abilities.
just so you know what the **** you're getting yourself into.
*Or in the case that it's remotely close to how i'm speculating, lets you see what they have completely equipped skill wise
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#47 Jun 12 2009 at 12:36 AM Rating: Default
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Naeo wrote:
Assuming that SE's growth system works out in any way shape or form in the way we're speculatiing, there's going to be alot of "Party do you need it?"
"yes"
"What abilities do you have, and what role do you wish to play"


if you don't have abilities / a role that meshes with the current party, then it'll probably wind up being solo land.


Though by any example, they should include within the /search function some way to see what people have as their "main" and "sub" abilities.
just so you know what the **** you're getting yourself into.
*Or in the case that it's remotely close to how i'm speculating, lets you see what they have completely equipped skill wise


I think SE's goal is to make grouping _less_ complicated compare to FFXI.

A side note of that system is that every item/equipment in the game have to be BoP since there won’t be any level to check against.

Now if you say that you can lock weapons to the skill that could work, for example, you need minimum sword skill 200 to use this sword, and same logic can apply to armor/shield/ that says you need xxx amount to skill to be able to equip it.

But this will in the end be skill=level. Instead of saying "Hi Joe, what is your level?" you would say "Hi Joe, what is your skill?”

In my eyes if SE only did change level for skill, that’s a fail. "Why reinvent the wheel?"

Also as some of you have mentioned, if I’m looking for people to invite, I WANT to know at what stage that character is in his/her "growth". Even if they implement the level sync option, I WANT to invite people at my level instead of getting deleveled and have to go to low level areas.

Again this is a monumentous task in an MMO to completely remove level and xp of any sort. The only way I think you can get away with it is to have it 99% story based and then your abilities and stats have little or no meaning at all.
#48 Jun 12 2009 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:

But this will in the end be skill=level. Instead of saying "Hi Joe, what is your level?" you would say "Hi Joe, what is your skill?”


Ya, which in my opinion is pretty much ideal. The level system wouldn't really work without a job system in an MMO. So if you've got a level system, you've got a job system and you see Joe's job and the tendency amongst the community is to make your own decision about what Joe's role in your group would then be. Maybe Joe leveled RDM to be a melee/caster hybrid dps with some enfeebling thrown in for ***** and giggles, but nobody asks Joe what role he wants in the group. They see RDM and they think support because that's what his job defines him as. If you ask Joe what level his skills are at and he says sword 184/enfeebling 172, that's still no guarantee that he's going to be what you're looking for for your group but he's much less likely to be criticized for not doing what he's "supposed" to do.
#49 Jun 12 2009 at 10:05 PM Rating: Default
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BUMP.

Best theory thread on these forums.

I like what aurelius said, and I also liked the comment about 'If you can't fulfill a slot in a party you will end in soloville'.

Not gonna post alot right now, just bumping the thread up again.
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#50 Jun 13 2009 at 12:34 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
A side note of that system is that every item/equipment in the game have to be BoP since there won’t be any level to check against.


I missed this first time around...not sure if I understand the logic behind it. Instead of requiring a job level to equip a weapon, it could be based on your skill with that weapon type. Instead of requiring a job level to equip a certain piece of armor/accessory, it could be based on a particular attribute. Lots of ways to implement a progression system for gear access without making everything BoP.
#51 Jun 13 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:
A side note of that system is that every item/equipment in the game have to be BoP since there won’t be any level to check against.


I don't know where people are getting the idea that there will be no levels. All the developers said was it was not going to have the traditional exp system. Maybe level is determined by your skill level, a RDM increases his level when he gains enfeebling skill up? A DRK increases his level by dark magic + Scythe/Greatsword skill ups.

In FFXI is was not uncommon to have a drk be underskilled in the scythe category if he spent all his exp partied using a greatsword. Maybe level is determined by the highest of those 2 skills for DRK. Some jobs would have more complex level equations but, you can have levels without exp.

The point of this is to say level will still most likely be in the game, just formulated in a different way.
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