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Gear System IdeasFollow

#52 Jun 13 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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Mictam wrote:
In FFXI is was not uncommon to have a drk be underskilled in the scythe category if he spent all his exp partied using a greatsword. Maybe level is determined by the highest of those 2 skills for DRK. Some jobs would have more complex level equations but, you can have levels without exp.

The point of this is to say level will still most likely be in the game, just formulated in a different way.


There's plenty of precedent for a no-level system in other FF titles and SE offerings.

Of course, there was also the interview with SE devs:

Quote:
If there are no levels, how do characters advance?

Although Final Fantasy XIV will eschew the traditional leveling system in favor of something new, there will be parts of the Job System that make it over.


Seems pretty straightforward to me...
#53 Jun 13 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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b4 i start lol
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to the materia guy: dude...awesome idea with the materia. i dont see how they didnt put something like that in XI. i mean materia, spheres, crtystals, etc...they've been apart of FF since...like...forever. sure XI's story was based around a powerful sentient jewel. and our spawn points were crystals..but we had little diret interaction and ability to use crystals apart from crafting. surely there will be crystals or something in this game, and i hope they make a bigger day to day deal about it. if you skip the intro and dont pay attention to quests beyond objectives and rewards, crystals had seemingly little significance. i want their importance to be unmissable, and using the for abilities and armor customazation is a great way to do it


i would also like to see them include crystals more in the story... u never no they could also do a ff5 where crystals shatter and you get jobs from the shards. hence making u go crystal hunting for more jobs.

what i do hope they end up doing is keeping more or less the same gear they had in ff11, just easier to get. there was A LOT of choices to choose from, but you could almost always never find variety on the AH. making the drops a little more common, or easier to get could remedy the problem.

as much as the material system makes sense... it would break it for me... some material would be horded just like spells where back in FF11. as long as theres a "best" there will always be ppl trying to make money off it.

now to gear, im not sure what to think personaly, giving them skill stats would make some pieces of equips higher then other. learning skills off equips would also do the same thing. i think equips should be just that, something u get for more stats and makes u looker cooler. not something that can make or break a build.

plds - pld type armor only
rdm - rdm type armor only
whm - whm type armor only
etc

skills should be the only factor when it comes to build making. the right set of skills should be the only thing defining your build. those skills should also be choosen by you.
#54 Jun 13 2009 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Leyego wrote:
skills should be the only factor when it comes to build making. the right set of skills should be the only thing defining your build. those skills should also be choosen by you.


Gear presents an opportunity to add another level of diversity to your character. With enough diversity in both the itemization and the character growth options, selecting gear for your character (whether you only use one set of gear or several) can become an interesting part of the game. The difficulty with itemization in a lot of MMOs these days is that there's either not enough of it, or character growth is so predictable (ie. if you're <x> job of <y> race, your naked toon at level <z> will have the same stats as someone else of the same job, race, and level) that it becomes less about diversity and more about simply having "the best". Without gear as a component to developing your character, a huge segment of the reward typically offered in an MMO to players who are successful in a certain area of content disappears.
#55 Jun 13 2009 at 8:08 PM Rating: Good
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u make a great point there.

but if the gear system is anything like ff11's then it comes down to picking the best gear with the most status effects.

i don't want that repeated tbh, it pretty much broke the equipment system for me. theres something wrong about everyone lvl 45 wearing brig armor and hardly anyone wearing something like gaia armor for example.

guess we'll have to see what SE has in store for the "growth" of a char.

i guess if its more stats driven then gear can play an important role for balancing or impoving stats to a greater height. **** it im sick of guessing, im gona wait till they announce something b4 i start taking shots in the dark.

not using EXP as a means of growth means they can do anything.
#56 Jun 13 2009 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Skills/magic/weapons/armor should work by a combination of three things.

First, a materia system, but with crystals, that allows you to augment your weapons/armor with specific stats. Weapons and armor should have different crystal slots (ranging from 1 to 10) that allow you to add crystals infused with peculiar stats (STR, MND, Acc and the likes, but add many new ones).

Second, a weapon/armor "training" like in FFTA or even FF9 where using a weapon or armor "teaches" you new skills and enhancements. You'd need to equip those a little like BLU spells in FFXI.

Third, a licence board (FFXII) or sphere grid (FFX), randomly created for each character when they're first created. I actually can't think of more, but adding SOME randomness to your character would make it more interesting.

Basically, if I had a fresh new Hume:


My stats would be "1"s all around.

With my pointy stick of doom, which contains 3 "materia" slots, I'd be able to add STR+1, AGI+1 and Treasure finder +1.

This same pointy stick of doom would be able to "teach" me basic black mage spells, such as "stone" and all of the "level 1" ones. Each battle gives me "training points" I'd be able to allocate on the skill that I wish to learn from the selection my weapon and armor offers me. So, I could decide to put all my points to learn "fire" before "stone". If you are using the weapon/armor, you instantly have access to all abilities they can teach you. Only abilities fully "learned" are kept after you remove said piece of equipment.

Finally, with a "grid", I'd be able to increase stats and acquire "essential abilities" of my choice. The grid could be reseted in the equivalent of the "mog house", allowing you to modify and reallocate points for different play styles. Once again, all grids would be randomly created, based on date and time of character creation, character name and something else that's weird. This "grid" would allow you to permanently increase stats, such as STR, by 1.

Adding all of these together would created the most customizable system I'd ever seen in a game.
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#57 Jun 13 2009 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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The trouble I perceive with a system where you gain abilities from gear similar to FF9 or a materia system is that in both of those games, you could very frequently go for periods of time where your characters were learning little/nothing because they had learned what their gear allowed them to learn and you had no other gear to swap in. Imagine the amount of gear you'd have to go through in FFXIV if all of your abilities were learned from gear. To me, it's a cumbersome, limited system that worked in the standalone FF titles but would be a monster to implement properly in an MMO.
#58 Jun 14 2009 at 9:25 PM Rating: Default
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The solution to this would be allowing many more gear options to people, with multiple weapons or gear allowing for the learning of similar abilities. IE: a wand, a staff, a great sword, and a scythe would all allow a player to learn the spell 'Drain', but each weapon would allow other abilities to be learned and stats to be activated.

As far as a Materia system goes, the 'white magic' materia would only be allowable in certain weapons that a traditional white magic user could use, such as a 1-hand sword, a staff, or a wand. The idea being, you only have to bring one weapon to the fight as a DRK or WHM, but you would probably bring a couple materia along.

You will have to bring many items with you in this theory, more as you progress. But as most MMOs allow you the option of gaining more inventory space as you progress, I don't see the problem with bringing 1-3 weapons and 6-7 'materia' along with you on a single party invite. It isn't like the old FFXI system where you would have to re-equip for each and every cast or weaponskill, you would just have to swap out as you play to learn more abilities (which would be after an extended play time, it IS a MMO after all). If you don't choose to swap out, then you don't have to, your character would just lose the maximum advancement option, and just advance a single skill during the time played. (IE: oh I forgot to bring along my 2-hand sword, all I have is my 1-hand sword. Even though I would progress faster in what I want by switching weapons to my 2-hand that I forgot, I will still progress using the 1-hand that I have, albeit it slower and maybe into areas that are not my main focus.)

Quote:
The trouble I perceive with a system where you gain abilities from gear similar to FF9 or a materia system is that in both of those games, you could very frequently go for periods of time where your characters were learning little/nothing because they had learned what their gear allowed them to learn and you had no other gear to swap in. Imagine the amount of gear you'd have to go through in FFXIV if all of your abilities were learned from gear. To me, it's a cumbersome, limited system that worked in the standalone FF titles but would be a monster to implement properly in an MMO.


I doubt it would be any different than the amount of gear you would have to go through in any other MMO that had a longstanding following. If you don't want to learn the abilities from your random drops, then sell it to a vendor or on the AH. The only problem with this system is players wanting to learn every ability and have every set of armor on them at once so they can play any role at any time. This is a unique obsession to Final Fantasy. You wouldn't see a Priest in WOW wanting the tank plate gear that dropped in a low level instance so they can learn something like charge. I think that is only because WOW puts limitations on individual characters so they can only play a single class. Once the entirety of a game is open to a single character, then more choices must be made.

In FFXIV:
So, do you keep that cloth healing gear you just got that can teach you how to cast raise? Or do you sell it so you can keep that shield in your inventory that can teach you Shield Bash? You can only keep so much inventory that you really want to learn at one time.

It would be a nightmare if you were trying to min/max your playtime to become the ultimate character with every ability at your command. But it would also create a world where player decisions made a major impact upon their character development. Eventually players would HAVE to give into the design and choose how they wanted to play, and come back later on to make their character play a different way if they so chose. Or if they get bored.


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#59 Jun 14 2009 at 9:29 PM Rating: Default
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Oh, and is there any chance someone could rename this thread?

At this point I think 'Gear System Ideas' is not really the best title for a theory thread that has perhaps the best 'theorycraft' on the advancement system and gear/weapon system we might see in FFXIV.

And I still don't get the flame icon on the thread. It seems much more civilized than many of the other threads.
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#60 Jun 14 2009 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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And I still don't get the flame icon on the thread. It seems much more civilized than many of the other threads


flame icon = "hot"(popular) thread, not "flame war"

the OP could change the title, by editing the first post's subject.
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#61 Jun 14 2009 at 9:53 PM Rating: Default
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I didn't know that about the fire Icon lol.

I guess it's just because every time I click on one with that icon it seems to be a flame war.

I knew the OP could change the title, it's just that the OP seemed to create it and then disappear from the forums.
Well, no worry, seems your post and the one I am currently writing still serve as a BUMP for it.

I only Bump because I care. I like to read this one. I hope others do too.
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#62 Jun 14 2009 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Duke Ikkian wrote:
Third, a licence board (FFXII) or sphere grid (FFX), randomly created for each character when they're first created. I actually can't think of more, but adding SOME randomness to your character would make it more interesting.

Finally, with a "grid", I'd be able to increase stats and acquire "essential abilities" of my choice. The grid could be reseted in the equivalent of the "mog house", allowing you to modify and reallocate points for different play styles. Once again, all grids would be randomly created, based on date and time of character creation, character name and something else that's weird. This "grid" would allow you to permanently increase stats, such as STR, by 1.

Adding all of these together would created the most customizable system I'd ever seen in a game.


I instantly saw a problem with this. The 'Grid' being randomly generated? That sounds like it would choose your job for you. If you were lucky enough to get the perfect order, you could be overpowered.

Maybe there could be a predetermined 'grid' for each job. If I switch to from blackmage to paladin, I get a new Paladin 'grid' that is geared toward damage mitigation and increase in threat. I would start with 0 'gridpoints' (GP?) and would then have to 'level' my paladin to start putting points in. If I change jobs back to blackmage, I retain my blackmage 'grid' as it was before I changed. Then I could wipe it in my mog house and reuse my 'gridpoints' as I see fit.

As for learning abilities through armor and weapons: Please God no! Imagine how much gear you would have to carry around so that once you finally finished learning Provoke you could switch without having to go back to town. High level spells learned through endgame weapons? Eew, say goodbye to the casual players. This system may have worked in FFTA, but that's because you gradually gained the ability to purchase better gear as the story developed. To be honest, if SE implements learning abilities through weapons and armor, I probably won't play FFXIV. I have no problems learning abilities through weapon progression: If I get my shield skill to 50 I learn shield bash, but having specific pieces of gear teach me abilities? No, thanks.
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#63 Jun 15 2009 at 12:21 AM Rating: Default
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Elaborate please.

If you get shield skill to 50 and learn shield bash, does that unlock Shield bash for you to use in any situation?
If you are healing oriented, but have a shield equipped can you use shield bash?

And if weapons and gear do not tie into the ability and progression system, then how do you reconcile the stated 'no exp, weapons will play a major role in how character progression takes place' mentality most people on these forums have taken. (extrapolating upon the statements made by the developers thus far, albeit we have little to go on).

Quote:
Imagine how much gear you would have to carry around so that once you finally finished learning Provoke you could switch without having to go back to town. High level spells learned through endgame weapons? Eew, say goodbye to the casual players.


Yes, you WOULD have to carry around a bunch of gear to switch 'without having to go back to town' if you wanted to advance your character in a very short amount of time from the lowest ability level to the maximum. The point being, you might have to go back to town if you are trying to get all the way from minimum to maximum ability. I doubt that there will be a similarity to WOW in that you can get to maximum ability in a role in a few days playtime, so I don't think such worries as carrying every piece of equipment you need to learn abilities will be a big concern. You will probably have to go back to town and re-equip to switch roles. Just like you would have to switch jobs in FFXI in town, or you would have to switch alts in WOW to play another role.

'Say goodbye to the casual players'? I think that only the very HARDCORE would worry about having to keep everything on their character at once and fret about not being able to learn their healing spells and their offensive weaponskills at the same time. For casual players, I don't see why switching gear that they can easily obtain for the defining abilities would be a problem. ****, most casual players would probably enjoy the fact that they can play a little in one way, log out in town, then log back in at town, switch weapons/gear, and play a completely different way.

'High level spells learned through endgame weapons?' Not every high level spell of course, but there should still be an incentive for playing the endgame. If weapons are to play such a major role in FFXIV, then why not allow the endgame weapons to give better bonuses than just stats? I am not talking about high-level spells that would define a class, just a bonus for having obtained an endgame weapon. (And I don't think anyone wants to see the endgame weapons being as time-consuming or painful as a FFXI relic). But if you can get to a high level boss and down him, why shouldn't you get a little something that is better than what the still-leveling players get?

But please, give us an idea on what could be a system instead of just finding faults in something another poster proposed. If you don't like their system, then provide an improvement. If you think it is all entirely off-base, then please provide something better.

IE: The randomness of a Grid system would be a pain, since I would reroll my character until I found the grid I wanted. Perhaps a Grid system that was stable, but changed based on what you chose as your character's main stats or your character's race would better provide variety in player styles. Maybe the grid could also swap with the weapon you have equipped, and as you wield that weapon type you could begin to unlock portions of the grid associated with that weapon.

(see, constructive thought, and at the same time showing what I think would be an idea better thought out)


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#64 Jun 15 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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i have always liked games that let you define your role in the world by what you do, not having what you are define what you can do in the world. that was one of the big drawing points for me in eve online (month long skill training aside)


i would like to see something like in 9. where you would learn a skill from a weapon or piece of armor. once learned they go into a skill bank. skills can be equipped something like with xi's blue mage with a cap on how many skills you can equip via having every thing have an attached skill point cost.

example your starting out and you get a dagger with dagger skill on it. while you have the weapon equipped you have access to dagger skill. once you have "learned" the skill your free to do what ever you want with the dagger but you would always have access to your dagger skill and it would continue to level up while it is equipped to your skill set.

how do jobs come into play with a ala cart system? upon equipping the correct set of skills you "earn" a job title. at that point you are able to learn job specific skills


Edited, Jun 15th 2009 1:02pm by galkafan
#65 Jun 15 2009 at 9:57 PM Rating: Default
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BUMP!
DEFAULT BUMP!

Gotta love getting defaulted on a thread where you only try to be positive and encourage players to come forth with new ideas.

But it is alla after all.
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#66 Jun 18 2009 at 9:46 PM Rating: Default
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nobody cares about the gear system anymore?

Bump shock, because this thread is in a shockable rhythm, but still not in PEA or asystole.

Someone give some lidocaine or amiodorone stat, this thread could die.

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#67Shazaamemt, Posted: Jun 18 2009 at 10:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) From ChinookFFXIV
#68 Jun 30 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Default
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Necro bump.

I wanted to read more actual gameplay speculation threads.
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#69 Jun 30 2009 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
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#70 Jun 30 2009 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know about y'all, but the idea of a massive grindfest for skill points and skillups...reminds me of FFXI unlocking my last WS for each weapon class, or heaven forbid the Nyzul weapons (and I've only climbed 1-5).

Aside from that, I would like to see more "final fantasy" styled equipment in addition to the current 'realistic' weapon/equipment used in FFXI. For example, while the Haubergeon had awesome stats, it gets a little boring seeing the chainmail with shoulder pads...what about cool outfits like Tidus' gear? Some bright colouring and flashy designs wouldn't hurt the game.
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#71 Jun 30 2009 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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what about cool outfits like Tidus' gear? Some bright colouring and flashy designs wouldn't hurt the game.


More belts and zippers?
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#72 Jun 30 2009 at 11:41 PM Rating: Default
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At some point there is going to be a grind.

It IS a MMO after all.

If you don't want to grind, but still want to be at the top level of the game, play FPS.
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