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Fast paced battles = Simplified fights?Follow

#1 Jun 07 2009 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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FFXI obviously has a much slower gameplay compared to the rest of the MMOS on the market, but the speed I think allowed the developers to come up with fights that required strategy, tactics! (SC, MB, Stuns)
It also didn't make DoTs and debuffs(enfeebles) seem unnecessary since the mobs were around long enough for the effects to be seen. (Slow, paralyze especially)

So they are talking about speeding up the gameplay and somehow I feel like strategies and teamwork will limited to boss fights since everything else is going to die in 5 seconds (like most MMORPGS!)

I like having to sleep a mob so I can kill the other one first!

Anyone who has played WoW, AoC, WAR, EQ2, AION....you know what im talking about. You click a mob, cast 2 fireballs and the mob is dead. When you level up a few times, you have to shoot a fireball, root the mob, then shoot another fireball so you don't get killed...

I really hope that the idea of speeding up battles simply means faster animations because I want to come up with a plan before I engage the Tonberry with a pet Marlboro.

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#2 Jun 07 2009 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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I second this... I really hope that SE realizes the fine line that is between "fixing" the combat system, and just becoming a click-click-b00m-death combat system.

I hope that faster paced means just means that the actions will have to be faster paced, maybe making decisions harder. This would be interesting.

Also, I have hope that there will be strategy involved because the circle formation they've mentioned, and also the weapon system seems to hint that certain weapon types will deal more damage against certain foes (very basic strategy, but some nonetheless).
#3 Jun 07 2009 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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It could be a problem. But if the battles are based on fighting groups of mobs, these things still might work. For example, your basic paralyze/slow might now be an AoE. It won't make a big difference against one monster, but its effect on the whole group would be considerable.
#4 Jun 07 2009 at 7:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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lambon wrote:
FFXI obviously has a much slower gameplay compared to the rest of the MMOS on the market, but the speed I think allowed the developers to come up with fights that required strategy, tactics! (SC, MB, Stuns)
It also didn't make DoTs and debuffs(enfeebles) seem unnecessary since the mobs were around long enough for the effects to be seen. (Slow, paralyze especially)

I dunno, I'm going to comment on WoW, because WoW is notorious for it's fast combat.

While the non-raiding game is rather, deplorable, the raiding game is a good example of how a fast system could work well.

You are wrong about the unimportance of debuffs. Debuffs were extrodinarially important in WoW. In WoW, the time it would take for a tank to die was under 3 seconds easily. Not keeping up many debuffs on a boss, was a way to get the tank killed so fast, that you would stand no chance to survive.

Quote:
So they are talking about speeding up the gameplay and somehow I feel like strategies and teamwork will limited to boss fights since everything else is going to die in 5 seconds (like most MMORPGS!)

Fights are faster yes, but even the shortest boss fights would last at least 5 minutes. During those 5 minutes, there is a constant level of, "Do not ***** up or we've lost"

Essentially, yes, in WoW, the length of fights is shorter, however, the frequency of things that will cause you to to lose the fight is much greater, rarely occurring any farther apart than 20 seconds.

You most certainly do not kill regular raid enemies in 5 seconds, much less bosses. A regular enemy (or group of enemies) usually will take at least 1 minute to kill.

During this, you would be assaulted frequently by things that could cause your entire group to die.

The strategy and teamwork is still there, and required. It just requires a high level of attentiveness, as the strategies must be executed rapidly.

Quote:
I like having to sleep a mob so I can kill the other one first!
I see no reason why this would not be a part of FFXI still, heck, it's still a part of WoW even.

Quote:
Anyone who has played WoW, AoC, WAR, EQ2, AION....you know what im talking about. You click a mob, cast 2 fireballs and the mob is dead. When you level up a few times, you have to shoot a fireball, root the mob, then shoot another fireball so you don't get killed...
I don't think there's any implication at all, that soloing will be such a simple task in FFXIV. And most obviously group content will not be such a simple task.

You seem to be misunderstanding what faster means. Faster, when well done, means a 2 hour long boss fight only takes 20 minutes, but the frequency of things that occur during the fight is times greater.

In general, yes, soloing is ridiculously easy in World of Warcraft. While I am not justifying it, Blizzard in general, treats everything before level-cap, as essentially a "Tutorial level" where you get to learn how your class's large number of abilities work.

Not unlike levels 1-10 in FFXI.

EDIT:

TL;DR version:

Faster doesn't mean you kill monsters in 5 seconds instead of 60 seconds. It means the monster attacks 20 times during that time period instead of 6-7 times. It means players have to attack the same monster 40 times during that time period, instead of only 10 times.

It basically means that you have more to do and more to pay attention to, in the same period of time.

Neither is mutually exclusive, you can have both. To use world of warcraft as an example, there are some times where you must fight 30 weak enemies at a time which each die very quickly. Other times, you would have to fight a single monster which is almost as strong as a boss, and make take 2-3 minutes to kill. And every range inbetween.

It adds variety to fighting if every monster you fight is not the later kind, like it is in FFXI.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 11:53pm by Karelyn
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#5 Jun 07 2009 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
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i can understand your worry

my only complaints with the battle system being slow as that while fighting it went liek this. i hit...1.....2....3....4....i hit....1....2.....3....4....i hit


like that over and over and over/ so uninterestign and slow. moevent keeps people interested. FFXI fights got old pretty fast. sure when you elveled up there were more things to do like abilities and spells and stuff. but everything kept the slow pace with the mild improvement of you being more active

if they cut the delay of the weapons and spells and stuff, kept their potency, but maybe upped the defense and/or hp of everything it would have the battles last the same amount of time <which to me wasnt an issue> keep the stradegy <since the amount of time spent means that you have to recast spells and stuff as you said, and we can still do SC and MB assumign tehy still exist in some way shape or form> but have the characters always moving, or at least moving more quickly. at its base its at least more asthetically pleasing


thats w=one of the thigns i dis-liked about FFXII. it was like FFXI on a 1 player consol. that kind of fighting is fine for mmo, not optmial imo but do-able. but not in a single player consol game, that didnt cut it in my book. but thats another story, this is FFXIV we're talkign about



anyway, yeah. all im asking for is the animations to be sped up and more intersting, not necissarily for shorter less strategical fights
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#6 Jun 07 2009 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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The thing is, in a lot of MMOs you can make your experience as challenging as possible. In FFXI there's basically only one difficulty level.
#7 Jun 07 2009 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It could be a problem. But if the battles are based on fighting groups of mobs, these things still might work. For example, your basic paralyze/slow might now be an AoE. It won't make a big difference against one monster, but its effect on the whole group would be considerable.


I had forgotten the whole multiple mobs they mentioned. This will without a doubt encourage strategy and timing. I am still a bit skeptical about it since from a business perspective, WoW seems to be doing the right thing.
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#8 Jun 07 2009 at 7:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wow, that post I made became absurdly unruly.

Eh, the short version of it, is you can change fights from being endurance fights, to shorter fights that have more going on... without making it into "Click boom click boom loot" grinding like the solo game in some MMOs.

If a boss is going to attempt to wipe the group 20 times during a fight, why not have those 20 times occur every 10 seconds instead of every 60 seconds?

Yes the fight is shorter, but it is also less boring, and more exciting, and faster. Not to mention the difficulty is still entirely intact, if not actually higher, due to the frequency of danger.
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#9 Jun 07 2009 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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Well if the boss is capable of killing you every 10 seconds and you have to be on key (Despot farming anyone?) then that is perfect. However, I actually enjoyed the idea of not having to fight a boss to face these kinds of dangers. (Again, Despot farming =0)
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#10 Jun 07 2009 at 8:02 PM Rating: Default
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My understanding is while they may speed up your melee attacks and give more skills, the monsters are going to have a much larger hp pool. I think SE just wants to make the action seem much more...active. The 6 seconds between scythe swings was unimaginably boring. I think they will speed it up, but make sure they scale the monsters hp to fit their system. I love fights that take a long time. This just means bosses are going to have millions of hp vs. thousands.

That decent challenge monster is going to die just as fast as a FFXI decent challenge (pre-level 10), but you will be taking a much more active role in what your character does. I think they want melee attacks to be fillers between abilities, as opposed to what FFXI is: abilities being fillers between melee swings.
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#11 Jun 07 2009 at 8:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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As Karelyn pointed out, a faster paced combat just means that things can go wrong faster. It means that you are constantly actively engaged in the combat cycle and not experiencing long gaps where you just stand there and auto-attack because there's nothing else to do while you wait for abilities to come off cooldown. You become more of a participant in combat instead of a surreal mix of participant and observer. If anything, reaction time becomes even more important because content is tuned with the assumption that you'll have more options to deal with a variety of situations at any given time. Because a faster paced system virtually requires access to more abilities to keep up the pace, it means that content can actually become more complex and encounters can be more diverse. Faster combat also helps to delineate skill. Ideally, it wouldn't serve as the basis to foster elitism, but it does grant a more challenging experience to players to keep them occupied and learning.
#12 Jun 07 2009 at 8:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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lambon wrote:
Well if the boss is capable of killing you every 10 seconds and you have to be on key (Despot farming anyone?) then that is perfect. However, I actually enjoyed the idea of not having to fight a boss to face these kinds of dangers. (Again, Despot farming =0)

Blegh, more WoW references.

While I doubt they will approach the speed of WoW, 10 seconds is fairly normal, if even a long time between things that can kill you. To describe one boss fight that was recently put in the game... Well, things that can kill a raid member occur on average around every 0.4 seconds in a Hodir fight (I'd estimate).

Hodir

Requires two tanks, one geared for surviving physical damage, one geared for surviving ice damage.
Requires multiple classes that can remove magical movement impairing debuffs.

1. Every 20 seconds, Hodir would switch between the two types of damage. Each tank had to Provoke at the correct time, or the other tank would die in a single attack.

2. Every 1 seconds, a stacking debuff would be applied to all raid members. Debuff deals damage, and slows runspeed by 20%. The debuff is removed by walking. After 5 seconds of not moving, you would be frozen in place (And almost certainly die due to the heavy amounts of damage, even if a player who can remove debuffs tried to free you).

3. Every 10 seconds, Hodir would cast an an Area of Effect spell on all melee players, freezing them in place. They must be freed quickly by debuff removing classes, or they will die if they reach 5 stacks of the 1 second stackign debuff.

4. Every 5 second, a shadow will appear over 3 players in the raid's heads. Those players, and all nearby players, have 2 seconds to move to out from under the shadow. An icicle will then fall, dealing very heavy damage to anyone who stands underneath it (likely killing them).

5. Every 40 seconds, Hodir will stand in place for 9 seconds and begin a big cast. 6 seconds later, 2 very large icicles will fall from the ceiling. All raiders have 3 seconds to get on top of that icicle, or they will be frozen solid by Hodir's spell, and die.

Now, for the good news...

During the fight there are 8 NPCs, two of four different types, which will help you. They must be kept alive, and repeatedly freed from ice blocks that Hodir imprisons them in, or it is impossible to kill Hodir within the 10 minute time limit.

1. A healer, who helps by throwing around healing spells, and assists in removing the people from the frozen debuffs mentioned earlier. Fairly important obviously, helps keep people from dying.

2. A mage, will create fires around the room that people can stand by, in order not to take damage from the "every 1 second" attack.

3. A druid, which creates pillars of light that players can stand in in order to attack twice as fast (obviously doubling their damage)

4. A shaman, which casts a buff on one player every 30 seconds, that makes 5 nearby players have a 100% chance to land a critical hit.

...

Sounds busy enough for you yet?

Now think about the implications of some of those things.

Yes, you try to stand near the healer NPCs to keep damage under control, as well as stand near the campfires and pillars of light, in order to do enough damage to defeat the boss. This also means that you must be constantly moving out of them, as icicles will frequently be falling in those locations. The boss most be moved nearby the pillars of light (which only last briefly), in order to allow melee damage dealers to do decent damage.

Needless to say, a fight can be short, and combat can be fast and frantic, without moving strategy or difficulty from the fight.


Edited, Jun 8th 2009 12:31am by Karelyn
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#13 Jun 07 2009 at 8:33 PM Rating: Decent
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They did say the battle would include " a number of more cerebral aspects.", so that sounds like some strong strategic components.
#14 Jun 07 2009 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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xVindico wrote:
They did say the battle would include " a number of more cerebral aspects.", so that sounds like some strong strategic components.


Ya, there's lots of room for strategic aspects in a fast paced environment both from the point of view of managing your character as well as managing how your character's actions fit with the group. Definitely no shortage of opportunity for strategic elements.
#15 Jun 07 2009 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, in WOW the fast pace really makes soloing experience take nothing more than 2 fireballs etc, whatever was said.
Just hitting your rotation and walking to the next mob basically.

At the same time that fast pace can make the PVP areas a match of quick wits.

Basically, the basic exp mobs and the dungeon trash mobs in WOW just don't have the AI to make the fast pace really feel like a cerebral event akin to an experience points party in FFXI feels.

I hope FFXIV has a speedier battle system than FFXI does, or at least that the party experience points mobs grant a good deal more benefit for fighting much lengthier and strategic battles.

But I still want to be able to log in for an hour and not feel it was wasted because I couldn't find a decent party.

So solo while I wait, AWESOME. Being able to grab a party and get even more reward for spending the time to perform in a party role if I can, also AWESOME.

So I would love to be able to easily solo through FFIV in 30 min increments, but still want to keep that strategic feel of partying.

Maybe have Hard mobs show up for a party in the area, but have easier solo versions for the soloist?
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#16 Jun 07 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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Oh please please please don't be as fast as WoW. I haven't raided yet, but I'm scared to. My reflexes and reasction time are not the best. When I read fight descriptions like that, I suspect I'd be screwed. While FFXI was too slow with too few abilities, WoW is a little too fast and twitchy.
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#17 Jun 07 2009 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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Raymund wrote:
Oh please please please don't be as fast as WoW. I haven't raided yet, but I'm scared to. My reflexes and reasction time are not the best. When I read fight descriptions like that, I suspect I'd be screwed. While FFXI was too slow with too few abilities, WoW is a little too fast and twitchy.

Ugh, I won't deny that's true. It's definitely a little too fast and twitchy.

My WoW guild is currently stuck on a boss because I apparently suck at reaction times (Naw, it's mostly cause the boss is frustratingly boring to tank, and it's causing my attention spam to suffer).

The only real mechanic for me as a tank to worry about on General Vezax, is that every 60 seconds, he begins a 3 second stationary cast of a 10 second buff that doubles his damage (more than enough to kill me in a single attack), but halves his run speed. I need to very quickly start running away from him when he begins that cast, and kite him for the 10 seconds. Roughly, I gotta start running before 0.5 seconds into the cast, to have a 2.5 second head start.

I seem to be reacting horribly slow and taking at least 1 second to start running, causing him to kill me before I can get far enough away that he can't attack me.

Ugh. We are trying to brute force our way through the fight now, using long cooldown abilities to make me take significantly less damage, instead of kite him. It isn't working too well though. Blegh, maybe next week we'll succeed.
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#18 Jun 07 2009 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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Aside of it's animation ( which I do hope that they'd improve the 'weapon-swing-delay' ), if they design the battle system into a time-critical-down-to-the-milliseconds, then there might be latency worries. People in east complaining about server response times because server is sitting in west etc. I have already heard too many of my friends in Asia complaining about how 600ms is hindering them to do their job in WoW (people dying because of delayed heals), and I think in FFXI, 600ms should still be ok, you can still stun a deadly move by the mob most of the time.

Of course, this is not a worry for the population closest to the server, but I believe if SE is doing things the same as FFXI, this will need to be taken into consideration as they're bound to have questions from playerbase how they should be fair to 'everyone' around the world.

But from time to time I get annoyed whenever one of my WoW friend keeps ranting "it's so difficult to do your job in WoW unlike in FFXI, you guys are on turn based!". Obviously he's never played the game, but have seen it a few times, but question is, WHY is he getting the idea it's turn based ?? Slower animations / delays between attacks, when you have basically times where NONE of ANYONE, neither the mob, nor you, is doing anything at all.


#19 Jun 07 2009 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Oh please please please don't be as fast as WoW. I haven't raided yet, but I'm scared to. My reflexes and reasction time are not the best. When I read fight descriptions like that, I suspect I'd be screwed. While FFXI was too slow with too few abilities, WoW is a little too fast and twitchy.


Lol...

Everyone kept saying how easy mode WoW is and now this.

Anyway, just because mobs might die faster doesn't mean it would be easier. It just means that the chance how having battles versus many mobs at the same time will be higher and that tactics will probably be more then just healer, tank, damage dealer setup.

FFXI has these kinds of things already though in the instanced fights (BCNM,Dynamis,Einherjar,etc). I wouldn't mind it at all if this was the case sometimes too for exping.
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#20 Jun 08 2009 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Another problem with fast paced, tiptoe and fast reflex strategy/play style, for example uldar 25 men (aka hard mode) is latency. As long as SE has a policy to have their servers in Japan it would be really hard to implement any game mechanism that latency will have major effect on.
#21 Jun 08 2009 at 12:18 AM Rating: Decent
Actually i'd like the mechanics of fights to be simple with more of an emphasis on flexible strategies. FFXI fights aren't really flexible, you do it one of a coupel ways with no variation or change of strategy. If the fights were simpler, maybe they could mix them up by changing the situation. Like a FPS, you can choose to approach it many ways.
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#22 Jun 08 2009 at 12:44 AM Rating: Default
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fast paste mean more action not less. I think it going to be exciting if battle are fast paste, it will maybe end the dreaded afk passing out routine knowing that you have to be on your toes.
#23Shazaamemt, Posted: Jun 08 2009 at 1:21 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) In Final Fantasy forums we tend to pay a little more attention to spelling/grammar in our posts.
#24 Jun 08 2009 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
Oh please please please don't be as fast as WoW. I haven't raided yet, but I'm scared to. My reflexes and reasction time are not the best. When I read fight descriptions like that, I suspect I'd be screwed. While FFXI was too slow with too few abilities, WoW is a little too fast and twitchy.


Lol...

Everyone kept saying how easy mode WoW is and now this.

WoW is stupid easy to level. A lot of people seem to assume that WoW is easy because of that.

They don't realize that Blizzard treats the leveling process as a tutorial. Sorta like levels 1-10 in FFXI. It's meant to be easy, short, and introduce you to the gambit of abilities that you will be using when raiding.

In FFXI, the leveling is a major part of the game. In WoW, it's the Tutorial...

It is also easy in the sense that it is not nearly as time consuming like other MMOs. However, not every fight has to be an endurance fight in order to add difficulty to it. Blizzard is increasingly borrowing ideas, not from RPGs, but from Action, Adventure, and Platformer games, for ideas for their fights.

Blegh...

The main problem with WoW is this... The scaling of difficulty, just doesn't exist... This is what probably around 70-90% of the playerbase does...

"lolololol this game is so easy, WoW Sucks!!!"
*hit level 60/70/80 (depending on expansion)*
"Heh, this game is so easy, I should go try raiding"
*Goes into a raid proceeds to die over and over for three hours*
"Raiding sucks! Lol raiding, it's so easy, scripted fights lawl! (even though I can't do it) I'm going to go stand in town and troll chat channels because I don't know what to do!"

And that's why the community in World of Warcraft generally sucks :/
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#25 Jun 08 2009 at 5:33 AM Rating: Decent
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There is no scaling in difficulty in exping in FFXI either (>.>)

And if I disregard waiting for party in FFXI then I don't need more time to level to max in FFXI as I do in WoW.

Trolling in city chat is not part of FFXI either? Honestly what server are you on because I would move right now.

Every game has good and bad people...
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#26 Jun 08 2009 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
There is no scaling in difficulty in exping in FFXI either (>.>)

And if I disregard waiting for party in FFXI then I don't need more time to level to max in FFXI as I do in WoW.

Trolling in city chat is not part of FFXI either? Honestly what server are you on because I would move right now.

Every game has good and bad people...

**** yeah there is a wall of difficulty in FFXI. The big difference is, in FFXI, it starts at around level 12 or so, which means people who can't handle it wind up rage-quitting after a week of playing. In WoW on the other hand, the wall of difficulty happens when people have spent months getting level capped. They feel like they've accomplished something already, and feel an obligation to stay with the game.

Bah. Trolling is way worse in WoW than in FFXI. Actually, as far as trolling goes, WoW is probably one of the worst places I've ever seen. /b/ looks tame by comparison most of the time.
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#27 Jun 08 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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i had an ich to all of a sudden visit Zam, and what did i find? FFmutheffinXIV baby. its as though a higher power willed it lol. truely i am destined to play this game. now if only they made a keyboard for the PS3...since i doubt my computer could handle FFX


what the ****.
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#28 Jun 08 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
**** yeah there is a wall of difficulty in FFXI. The big difference is, in FFXI, it starts at around level 12 or so, which means people who can't handle it wind up rage-quitting after a week of playing. In WoW on the other hand, the wall of difficulty happens when people have spent months getting level capped. They feel like they've accomplished something already, and feel an obligation to stay with the game.


Starting to learn how to party at 12 is not a wall of difficulty if that's what you're referring to.

And in WoW a lot of people level in partystyle too and use all the old instances for good exp.
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#29 Jun 08 2009 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Fast pace does not mean short duration. FFXI was slow paced, long duration. The problem I had with it was whatever you were doing you had giant gaps of anywhere between 30 seconds to even a minute or more sitting around waiting for TP to build or an ability to come off cooldown. Any kind of statement that those time periods were used to formulate any kind of strategy of what to do next seems silly or half-baked. No one needed that much time, and at least for me and my friends that played we used windower and played a few tables of online poker while we XPed or merited to help pass the time.

A faster pace wouldn't simply a fight, it would just mean that those button pushes or decisions you needed to make come at shorter intervals. The problem of simplicity only arises when you have fast pace with short duration such that you can burst an enemy down fast enough before it has a chance to create a situation that requires any cerebral elements or strategy.
#30 Jun 08 2009 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't notice this "wall of difficulty" or "scaling" in either game tbh.

There are just transition periods and learning curves for different environments. You learn to solo and learn to party just like you learn to run an instance/raid or learn to run Dynamis/Einherjar.

FFXI can be too slow just like WoW can be too twitchy at times. FFXI battles are usually boring after a little while and can leave you feeling quite spent (from boring repetition) after a couple of hours in a leveling grind, although it's not slow when a particular mob is going apeshit on your group and everyone starts being reactive.

With WoW, you can twink and/or stun lock something to have it down in seconds. Unfortunately, the same can happen to you making it impossible to react at all. We definitely need a balance, but to say fast paced = simplified is just not true.

Hopefully SE can find that balance.
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#31 Jun 08 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Default
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I dont think that you have much to worry about. They did say that there will be Many Vs. Many, and Many vs. ONE so taking that into account there will be plenty of strats to go around. I agree that you have every right to worry though due to the way WoW plays with its "Cycle" gameplay. ><
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#32 Jun 08 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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Depends what they mean by fast paced. It could mean the animations are alot more slick and faster...OR it could mean mobs go down faster.

Also this could mean they cut down on protocols such as pulling, engaging and planning. If a mob just attacks you and you auto-retaliate, the battle would pick up alot more speed. On top of that, navigating through menus could be done through things like hot-keys, e.g Kingdom hearts 2 had it's triangle reaction button.

Who knows though, who knows...
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Meowth!
#33 Jun 08 2009 at 1:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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305 posts
I'd like a mid paced combat system personally.

In ffxi, i can literally tab out or zone out (mentally) while waiting for something meaningful to do. Not a bad thing, as i like the ability to talk to people or jus idlely do my thing after a long day of work.

In WoW, If i miss one button press out of my rotation ( with nearly back to back keypresses on a 1.5 second global cool down ) i have screwed up my rotation and thus my dps - which makes talking to someone sans vent a pain and also on the longer fights makes for some wrist cramps and such.

So yeah, I would like to be engaged in combat near constantly but I do not want to be jamming buttons constantly.

Edit:

And yeah, as someone else said, faster paced combat just means things can go wrong faster. Buffs / debuffs can be tuned easily to account for fight lengths.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 5:39pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#34 Jun 08 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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821 posts
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I dunno, I'm going to comment on WoW, because WoW is notorious for it's fast combat.

While the non-raiding game is rather, deplorable, the raiding game is a good example of how a fast system could work well.

You are wrong about the unimportance of debuffs. Debuffs were extrodinarially important in WoW. In WoW, the time it would take for a tank to die was under 3 seconds easily. Not keeping up many debuffs on a boss, was a way to get the tank killed so fast, that you would stand no chance to survive.


I dunno if you didn't get it, but that is what he actually complains about!
I do play WoW myself...and the thing you call "********" up in 3secs and the Tank's dead has nothing to do with "concentration" in WoW...its all about spamming Skills/Healing til the Boss dies...THAT is what he DOESN'T want. WoW isn't Sunwell anymore...you don't have to "reasonably" use your Skills anymore...you just Spam to death!

I for myself don't want to see that too in FFXIV...that would suck!
#35 Jun 08 2009 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
I read a lot, but forgive me for not reading everything if something was already covered:

I hope that fighting is faster yes, and I think it will be. I think not only faster but more varied than the fighting 1 mob at a time in FFXI.

However two things I don't want from WoW: Predictable timed abilities. People make addons that can time exactly when each ability happens because they happen on a timer like clockwork. I find that a little phony. Second: No gimmick fights. Soooo many fights in WoW are gimmick fights. Bosses aren't tough because they're strong, they're tough because they have weird gimmicks that you have to perform, often having to stand in one place or get behind something.

No, I want faster fights, but more like FFXI fights where you feel like the bosses are actually trying to kill you and not following a clockwork rehearsal.
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Die! Die die die. die die die die, die die. - Scarlet Briar
#36 Jun 08 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
I hope the battles are fasted paced. I would love if moving out of the way of a mobs swings actually mattered. I know it would never happen but I wish this game had fighting more in line with dmc and other such action games. I know it couldn't be as flashy or nearly as fast as that but still a nice mix of rpg and action elements would be nice. we need nins that can actually dodge roll ^^.
#37 Jun 08 2009 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
However two things I don't want from WoW: Predictable timed abilities. People make addons that can time exactly when each ability happens because they happen on a timer like clockwork. I find that a little phony.

Agree. The funny thing about those addons? To the best of my knowledge, there is not a boss in the game that does not telegraph his "I'm going to kill the raid now" attacks, without using a unique animation, voice clip, or something to let you know it's coming.

In no way are the timers actually needed. Going back to Hodir again... He roars angrily whenever he switches between melee attacks and ice element attacks, easily cuing when the two tanks have to taunt off of each other. You do NOT need Timers for that.

When he begins casting his really big "I'm going to blow you up if you are standing on the ground" attack, he crouches down and starts charging up a very obvious spell. You do NOT need Timers for that.

If they had taken those two abilities off of timers, and forced people to pay attention to the boss's animations and sound effects... I would easily say that fight was almost exactly what a good hard boss battle should be like. It forced people to have environmental awareness, and work together. It reminded me of many great boss fight from a single player games like Castlevania or such.

A scripted fight isn't necessarily a bad thing. Videogames have been using them for ages with great success. And fights that are too random, are notorious for causing "Impossible to win" situations. The problem is these **** timers.

Quote:
Second: No gimmick fights. Soooo many fights in WoW are gimmick fights. Bosses aren't tough because they're strong, they're tough because they have weird gimmicks that you have to perform, often having to stand in one place or get behind something

Depends *shrug* Boss fights in videogames are pretty much defined by their gimmicks, it is what separates average enemies from bosses. Without some type of gimmick, the only difference between a boss and a regular enemy is that a boss has more HP and hits harder. That's kinda boring.

The question is, is the gimmick stupid or is it fun?

Without at least some type of gimmick, every fight is "Boss stands in one place, tank stands in one place. Healers heal the tank. Damage dealers attack the boss" ... *yawn* Boring.

Hey let's have the boss throw around an AOE! Hey, let's have the boss teleport damage dealers around the room. Hey, let's have the boss need to be kited! Hey, let's have the boss do __________!

*shrug*

There is flaws with WoW's combat system. And the two biggest problems have been named in this thread already. "Boss abilities on exact timers" and "The combat is so fast that you are mostly spamming abilities, not using them strategically"

If FFXIV could borrow some of the better aspects of WoW combat, like more environmental dangers that need to be avoided... while retaining the better aspects of FFXI combat, like skillchains... and find a happy medium of combat speed... it would truly be amazing.

Edited, Jun 8th 2009 8:29pm by Karelyn
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KUMQUATS
#38 Jun 08 2009 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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56 posts
GuardianFaith wrote:
Quote:
if Allakhazam falls in the middle of a forest, its because bruce lee pushed his *** down

former FFXI player and future FFXIV player

FFXI name: vedinatwo

PLD <main>:40
WAR:35
THF:20-ish <i cant remember anymore XD>

i had an itch to all of a sudden visit Zam, and what did i find? FFmutheffinXIV baby. its as though a higher power willed it lol. truely i am destined to play this game. now if only they made a keyboard for the PS3...since i doubt my computer could handle FFX


what the ****.


its my sig...something wrong?
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if Allakhazam falls in the middle of a forest, its because bruce lee pushed his *** down

former FFXI player and future FFXIV player
#39 Jun 08 2009 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
vedina wrote:

its my sig...something wrong?


Ya, you might want to tone that down to a line or two before an admin sees it. It's pretty obnoxious.
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